Truth
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 Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 2:10 am Post subject: About strangers and Israel - re: Russel |
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Russell,
I wrote this at the end of July again attempted to post it the first
week in Aug, but it never appeared..
I was having problems with my newserver and google too.
Then I was able to post a couple of posts, and couldn't again... Well
anyway, whatever the reason, I am back. 
I'm Sorry for the apparently large time delay in answering. I will be
trying to catch up and
answer other posts around here as time allows... I noted Lamarr's recent
explanation that I do not answer the questionsof sinners, and for the
record I do not mind answering questions from anyone who really is
interested in the answers. What I object to is answering the same exact
questions over and over by the same people, when they never acknowledge
anything I write on that issue or address any point I make, or answer
my questions in response. Why waste my time???
"Russell G." <russellphoto@icomail.net> wrote in message
news:b30cefcb.0307240823.cf4f6de@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | Read what Harold's favorite quotes are in the OT about "presumptuous
sin". It says that a believer or a STRANGER who commits presumptuous
sin cannot be forgiven. How can a STRANGER (non-Christian/Jew) be
held to the same standard when the understanding and knowledge doesn't
exist?
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I don't understand how you do not know that although the Gentiles were
called Strangers, or uncircumcised, and yet that there was a profound
difference between strangers who were
not joined with Israel, and those who were...
Num 15
28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth
ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an
atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both
for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger
that sojourneth among them.
30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in
the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul
shall be cut off from among his people.
31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his
commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be
upon him.
Presumptuously meaning: to rise, rise up, be high, be lofty, be
exalted,to exalt oneself, magnify oneself,OR to be rotten, be wormy.
(yuck)
Is it easier to accuse God of being unjust and unrighteous and holding
people to standards that they are honestly ignorant of, than to just
look up the texts in question, and word "stranger" and find out what the
answer is to your question yourself?
IN PREVIOUS THREADS, ENTITLED:
"Repent! Peter's story"
and two others, that because of some urgency on his part,Andrew named "
Deliberate Sin May Be Forgiven" and "--known and deliberate
sin--forgiven"
ANDREW CAME TO TELL US THE MOTIVES AND INTENTS OF THE APOSTLE PETERS
HEART AND MIND SO HE COULD ACCUSE HIM OF SINNING WILLFULLY AND
KNOWINGLY, AND DELIBERATLY AFTER CONVERSION, so he could teach those who
don't know better, that this is normal behavior for born again converted
christians and not to worry, for we will not surely die, because it is
forgiven, and then he of course refused to explain how he could know the
motives and intents of anyones heart, let alone the Apostle Peter, or
how come his explanation contradicted the plain testimony of a prophet
of the Most High, as I quoted??? Included in my responses on these
various threads of Andrews, I also posted her writings regarding the man
who presumptuously broke the sabbath, this example is given in scripture
immediately following the texts above that you are asking about in
Numbers 15.
Num 15
32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a
man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and
Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be
done to him.
35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death:
all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him
with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
37 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them
fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations,
and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:
39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and
remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek
not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a
whoring:
40 That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto
your God.
Do you also reject the testimony of the Lord, while claiming to accept
it?
Here is the testimony of Ellen White, who led by the Holy Spirit wrote,
as previously quoted by yours truly:
"Soon after the return into the wilderness, an instance of Sabbath
violation occurred, under circumstances that rendered it a case of
peculiar guilt. The Lord's announcement that He would
disinherit Israel had roused a spirit of rebellion. One of the people,
angry at being excluded from Canaan, and determined to show his defiance
of God's law, ventured upon the open transgression of the fourth
commandment by going out to gather sticks upon the Sabbath. During the
sojourn in the wilderness the kindling of fires upon the seventh day had
been strictly prohibited. The prohibition was not to extend to the land
of Canaan, where the severity of the climate would often render fires a
necessity; but in the wilderness, fire was not needed for warmth. **The
act of this man was a willful and DELIBERATE violation of the fourth
commandment--a sin, not of thoughtlessness or ignorance, but of
presumption.**
He was taken in the act and brought before Moses. It had already
been declared that Sabbathbreaking should be punished with death, but it
had not yet been revealed how the penalty was to be inflicted. The case
was brought by Moses before the Lord, and the direction was given, "The
man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him
with stones without the camp." Numbers 15:35. The sins of blasphemy and
willful Sabbathbreaking received the same punishment, being equally an
expression of contempt for the authority of God.
In our day there are many who reject the creation Sabbath as a
Jewish institution and urge that if it is to be kept, the penalty of
death must be inflicted for its violation; but we see that blasphemy
received the same punishment as did Sabbathbreaking. Shall we therefore
conclude that the third commandment also is to be set aside as
applicable only to the Jews? Yet the argument drawn from the death
penalty applies to the third, the fifth, and indeed to nearly all the
ten precepts, equally with the fourth. Though God may not now punish the
transgression of His law with temporal penalties, yet His word declares
that the wages of sin is death; and in the final execution of the
judgment it will be found that death is the portion of those who violate
His sacred precepts. {PP 408.4-409.2}
As you see this presumptuous sin of sabbathbreaking received the same
punishment as blasphemy according to the SOP. Doing a search in her
testimonies and writings, concerning blasphemy and the Holy spirit,
unforgivable sin, and such is very enlightening... For anyone who cares
about truth...
The following link lists all the references to the word "stranger" or
"strangers" that are in the Holy scriptures, with direct links to those
verses in the KJV bible, and access to Strong's concordance, feel free
to correct me if any of them seem to disprove what I am saying...
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1063297724-4863.html
As far as what these verses in numbers 15 are talking about,
here is my understanding:
Num 15
15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation,
and also for THE STRANGER THAT SOJOURNETH WITH
YOU, an ordinance for ever in your generations:
AS YE ARE SO SHALL THE STRANGER BE BEFORE THE LORD
16 ONE LAW and one manner shall be FOR YOU AND FOR
THE STRANGER that sojourneth with you.
That they were held to this standard is not debatable, as that is the
word of God, which is truth, so it would make sense, knowing God, that
the understanding and knowledge had to be available to them, because He
is ALWAYS both merciful and Just. He does not change.
You are probably aware that the promises made to Abraham were
not just about the Jewish nation, because the promise was that through
his seed, who Paul identifies as Christ, ALL NATIONS would be blessed.
Also of interest is that although the land of Canaan was called the
promised land, this was only a part of the land promised to Abraham and
his seed;
Gen 15:18 -21 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram,
saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of
Egypt[the Nile] unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites,
and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the
Perizzites, and the Rephaims,And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and
the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
Even though Israel was God's chosen people, salvation was not limited to
them, they were to be the example to lead other's to the Creator and to
their Deliverer, and to the worship of The Almighty God in both spirit
and in truth . That they failed to understand, or do this, changes
nothing about the fact that this was God's purpose and will, being so,
there were provisions even in the law of Moses for these people. and He
still brought his purpose and will about through Jesus, who had to come
reveal and make his Father known and explain it all, in word and deed,
both through his ministry, and through the ministry of the His Apostles.
Israel as a nation, instead of being a good example, mostly became a
example of what not to do. At one time God's remnant consisted of
"Yet I have left me, seven thousand in Israel, all the knees
which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not
kissed him."- 1Ki 19:18 (of course this is almost a thousand times
better than Noah's day when God's remnant was only 8 people) and
yet despite all this the Patriarchs and Prophets within the nation of
Israel
always stood out as different from the majority, as beacons of light,
and
made God's will, and power and truth known by the example of their lives
and how God worked through them, as well as by their teachings about His
law, the prophecies of God and the wisdom of God, and by lifting up
their voices like a trumpet and showing the house of Israel their sins.
Within the ten commandments where God says He shows:" mercy unto
thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments" in His Sabbath
commandment is a reference to the strangers you are talking about:
Exd 20
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it
thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy
manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy STRANGER that
is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all
that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD
blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
THIS PROMISE AND SIGN OF THEIR OBEDIENCE AND SANCTIFICATION APPLIED TO
THEM AS WELL:
Exd 31
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe
the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for
in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he
rested, and was refreshed.
Exd 31
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying,
Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me
and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that
I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Eze 20
12 Moreover also I gave them my Sabbaths, to be a sign between
me and them, that they might know that
I am the LORD that sanctify them.
CONFIRMED HERE:
Isa 56
1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my
salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that
layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and
keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the SON OF THE STRANGER THAT HATH
JOINED HIMSELF TO THE LORD, speak, saying: The
LORD hath utterly separated me from his people:
neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and
choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place
and a
name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an
everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also THE SONS OF THE STRANGER THAT JOIN THEMSELVES
TO THE LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD,
to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting
it,
and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my
house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be
accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of
prayer for all people.
8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I
gather *others* to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
THESE OTHERS WERE STRANGERS OUTSIDE THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL.
That is who the Apostle Paul was speaking about here:
Eph 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,
who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision
in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the
commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh
by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the
middle wall of partition between us
He was not talking about those gentiles who had *joined themselves to
Israel* like Ruth and who said; Your God is my God and your people are
my people, they were always part of spiritual Israel, he was talking to
the ones who did not know and had never heard this, and who had been
*outside* . This was always God's plan, for all nations, and all people.
It is up to the individual to accept his will for them and love and
serve only him though. Our God never forces the will, he will have all
to come to repentance, and a knowledge of the truth, and to freely
choose him, and to obey him from the heart and mind because they have an
intellectual settling in of this truth and they understand and know him.
BUT your question had to do with God holding strangers accountable in
the same way he did Israel...
So where did these STRANGERS WHO HAD JOINED THEMSELVES TO ISRAEL COME
FROM?
What follows is just a couple of examples:
When the Israelites went into Egypt there were seventy:
Gen 46:27
And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls:
all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt,were
threescore and ten.
When Israel left Egypt, with them were *600,000 men Of Israel, not
counting children* plus *a mixed multitude*.
Exd 12:37-38:
And THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six
hundred thousand
on foot that were men, beside children.AND A MIXED MULTITUDE went up
also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
Together they are referred to as "hosts of the Lord"
ALL THE HOSTS OF
THE LORD HEARD THE CREATOR SPEAK HIS ETERNAL LAW FROM SINAI, AND LATER
RECEIVED THE CEREMONIAL LAWS, THE CIVIL LAWS, THE DIETARY LAWS, AND
STATUTES AND JUDGMENTS CONCERNING THEM. ALL THE HOSTS OF THE LORD SAID
"WE WILL DO". ALL THE HOSTS OF ISRAEL FOLLOWED CHRIST THROUGH THE
WILDERNESS,AND WHEN THROUGH DISBELIEF THAT GENERATION DIED IN THE
WILDERNESS AND COULD NOT ENTER THE PROMISED LAND, THE CHILDREN OF ALL
THE HOSTS OF THE LORD, FOLLOWED CHRIST, AND THE ARK OF THE COVENANT
(PATTERNED AFTER GOD'S THRONE AND HIS LAW IN THE HEAVENLY) INTO THE
PROMISED LAND.
Exd 12
41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty
years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that ALL THE HOSTS OF THE
LORD went out from the land of Egypt.
42 It [is] a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them
out from the land of Egypt: this [is] that night of the LORD to be
observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.
43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This [is] the ordinance of
the Passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
44 BUT every man's servant that is bought for money, WHEN THOU HAST
CIRCUMCISED HIM THEN SHALL HE EAT THEREOF.
Exd 12
45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.
46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth
ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a
bone thereof.
47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
48 And WHEN A STRANGER shall sojourn with thee, and will
keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised,
and then let him come near and keep it; and HE SHALL BE AS
ONE THAT IS BORN IN THE LAND:for no uncircumcised
person shall eat thereof.
49 ONE LAW shall be to him that is homeborn,
AND UNTO THE STRANGER THAT SOJOURNETH AMONG YOU.
Circumcision was a token and reminder of the Promises made to Abraham by
faith to all nations, AND IT WAS NEVER LIMITED TO ONLY THOSE OF
HIS ACTUAL BLOOD AND LINEAGE. BECAUSE THE SEED WAS CHRIST...
Gen 17
24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was
circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was
circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
27 And ALL THE MEN OF HIS HOUSE, born in the house, AND BOUGHT WITH
MONEY OF THE STRANGER, WERE CIRCUMCISED WITH HIM.
Lev 19
34 BUT *THE STRANGER THAT DWELLETH WITH YOU* SHALL BE AS ONE BORN AMONG
YOU, AND *THOU SHALT LOVE HIM AS THYSELF*; for ye were strangers in the
land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Lev 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he
be, of the children of Israel, or of THE STRANGERS THAT SOJOURN IN
ISRAEL, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be
put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
RUTH who said "thy people will be my people and thy God, my God"
WAS ONE SUCH STRANGER, as I mentioned above. She was a Moabite,
a descendant not of Abraham,Isaac, and Jacob,but of Abraham's nephew
Lot and his oldest daughter,andalthough the moabites had descended
from Lot, who was righteous, they later went into apostasy and idolatry
and became the enemies of Israel, and yet Ruth was
a Child of the true God and the great... grandmother of both King David
and of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rahab and her family, are another example of strangers(gentiles) who
joined themselves to the Lord.
Jethro a midianite, was another so called stranger. he was
was also a kenite and yet he was a priest of the Almighty God,
and advised Moses about how to set up the elders to help judge over
Israel, and Moses who was led by God, followed his advice.
Moses was also married to his daughter Zipporah, and she was identified
as Ethiopian by both Miriam and Aaron. Jethro's family however when
invited by
Moses to join the children of Israel, in the wandering, declined and
returned home.
What is slightly amusing about this is that his home was within the
promised land already, which is also where Moses lived before being sent
by God back to Egypt to lead HIS people out. Here the children of Israel
are wandering around all over the desert because of a lack of faith and
their disobedience and yet Jethro comes to visit and then returns back
home no problem, of course he did not have this lack of faith or
disobedience problem,
Num 10
29 And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of
Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law, We are journeying unto the
place of which the LORD said, I will give it you: come thou with us, and
we will do thee good: for the LORD hath spoken good concerning Israel.
30 And he said unto him, I will not go; but I will depart
to mine own land, and to my kindred.
It's kinda like he and his, were waiting at the finish line,for forty
years.
Jdg 1:16 And the children of the Kenite, Moses' father in law,
went up out of the city of palm trees with the children of Judah into
the wilderness of Judah, which lieth in the south of Arad; and they
went and dwelt among the people.
....strangers who dwelt with Israel and so were as those who were born
among them, and part of the common wealth of Israel,following the
Almighty's law, inheriting all the promises and blessings, and subject
to the same judgments for disobeying or rebellion.
Of course those judgments still exist, they were given to Israel, so we
could understand, we just don't carry them out anymore, because all
judgment has now been given to Jesus. (see PP quote above) As we are now
in the day of atonement, and he has been judging the house of God since
1844, and considering the state of the world and how almost every single
prophecy has been fulfilled, I cannot believe it will be long until he
comes to execute his judgments, and save his people...
~ Cindy  |
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and enjoy all the