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Nick Argall
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 Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:53 am Post subject: An introduction |
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I'm going to break with my usual newsgroup tradition, and introduce myself
before participating in any threads.
My name really is Nick Argall, Argall being derived from Argol, a mining
village in Wales. In another place, I use the name Laochbran, which I
invented by using a celtic dictionary and combining 'laoch' (raven) with
'bran' (warrior).
You may have seen me before in conversations crossposted from
alt.religion.shamanism - I am, in a sense, a wanderer of Usenet, having
passed through alt.zen, talk.religion.buddhism, alt.religion.taoism,
alt.religion.shamanism, alt.religion.spiritualism, alt.dreams.lucid, and now
here.
I know almost nothing of any substance about Druidry, although I'll be
scouring Searles' website in the near future. (In fact, this has begun.) I
am very good at impertinent questions. I've been studying Eastern religion
and philosophy for quite some time, and have done some shamanic things in
the last couple of years. I am currently studying Chinese medicine at
university level. I'm very interested in trying to find connections and
contrasts between these various fields of endeavour, and I like to think
that one way I can make myself useful when I don't know much about the main
subject matter is to compare it to something else. (I also like it when I
get it wrong, and someone is able to explain this to me in terms that I can
understand.)
The area of Druidry that I am most interested in learning from is the
story-telling and word-magic. However, I hope to develop an overall
appreciation as well.
So... hi :)
Nick |
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Wade
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: An introduction |
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Greetings Nick, and welcome.
Stories were/are an important part of a Druid's learning.
An Irish Filidh (the inheritors of much that was Druidic)
had to learn something like 350 tales by rote as part of
their curriculum. Woven into the tales was the cultural,
spiritual, and behavioral koiné. The Irish have the
greatest store of surviving tales. Though many argue
over their integrity, few dispute their antiquity.
Word-magic as you call it is wrapped up in the term
poetry. Poetry, in ancient times, was not just metrics
or rhyming, but was thought to reflect the language
of the gods. Cormac's Glossary puts it this way: "Draí,
that is aí (inspiration) will arrive, that is, a poem, for it is
by poetry he makes his spells."
--
Wade
"Nick Argall" <nick.argall@aplaceof.removedotcom.info.com> wrote in message
news:40c9398a$0$3037$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
| Quote: | I'm going to break with my usual newsgroup tradition, and introduce myself
before participating in any threads.
My name really is Nick Argall, Argall being derived from Argol, a mining
village in Wales. In another place, I use the name Laochbran, which I
invented by using a celtic dictionary and combining 'laoch' (raven) with
'bran' (warrior).
You may have seen me before in conversations crossposted from
alt.religion.shamanism - I am, in a sense, a wanderer of Usenet, having
passed through alt.zen, talk.religion.buddhism, alt.religion.taoism,
alt.religion.shamanism, alt.religion.spiritualism, alt.dreams.lucid, and
now
here.
I know almost nothing of any substance about Druidry, although I'll be
scouring Searles' website in the near future. (In fact, this has begun.)
I
am very good at impertinent questions. I've been studying Eastern
religion
and philosophy for quite some time, and have done some shamanic things in
the last couple of years. I am currently studying Chinese medicine at
university level. I'm very interested in trying to find connections and
contrasts between these various fields of endeavour, and I like to think
that one way I can make myself useful when I don't know much about the
main
subject matter is to compare it to something else. (I also like it when I
get it wrong, and someone is able to explain this to me in terms that I
can
understand.)
The area of Druidry that I am most interested in learning from is the
story-telling and word-magic. However, I hope to develop an overall
appreciation as well.
So... hi :)
Nick
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George Prado
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: An introduction |
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Welcome to the group :)
George
"Nick Argall" <nick.argall@aplaceof.removedotcom.info.com> wrote in message news:<40c9398a$0$3037$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>...
| Quote: | I'm going to break with my usual newsgroup tradition, and introduce myself
before participating in any threads.
My name really is Nick Argall, Argall being derived from Argol, a mining
village in Wales. In another place, I use the name Laochbran, which I
invented by using a celtic dictionary and combining 'laoch' (raven) with
'bran' (warrior).
You may have seen me before in conversations crossposted from
alt.religion.shamanism - I am, in a sense, a wanderer of Usenet, having
passed through alt.zen, talk.religion.buddhism, alt.religion.taoism,
alt.religion.shamanism, alt.religion.spiritualism, alt.dreams.lucid, and now
here.
I know almost nothing of any substance about Druidry, although I'll be
scouring Searles' website in the near future. (In fact, this has begun.) I
am very good at impertinent questions. I've been studying Eastern religion
and philosophy for quite some time, and have done some shamanic things in
the last couple of years. I am currently studying Chinese medicine at
university level. I'm very interested in trying to find connections and
contrasts between these various fields of endeavour, and I like to think
that one way I can make myself useful when I don't know much about the main
subject matter is to compare it to something else. (I also like it when I
get it wrong, and someone is able to explain this to me in terms that I can
understand.)
The area of Druidry that I am most interested in learning from is the
story-telling and word-magic. However, I hope to develop an overall
appreciation as well.
So... hi :)
Nick |
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| Back to top |
Nick Argall
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:26 am Post subject: Re: An introduction |
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"Wade" <xremovexwade180@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:NJadnY9uMNBvN1TdRVn-uA@comcast.com...
| Quote: | Greetings Nick, and welcome.
Stories were/are an important part of a Druid's learning.
An Irish Filidh (the inheritors of much that was Druidic)
had to learn something like 350 tales by rote as part of
their curriculum. Woven into the tales was the cultural,
spiritual, and behavioral koiné. The Irish have the
greatest store of surviving tales. Though many argue
over their integrity, few dispute their antiquity.
|
I'd be inclined to suspect that one reason why writing the stories down was
forbidden was to allow the stories to evolve. (I consider this to be a good
thing.)
| Quote: | Word-magic as you call it is wrapped up in the term
poetry. Poetry, in ancient times, was not just metrics
or rhyming, but was thought to reflect the language
of the gods. Cormac's Glossary puts it this way: "Draí,
that is aí (inspiration) will arrive, that is, a poem, for it is
by poetry he makes his spells."
|
Thanks for letting me know that. Are there modern poetic forms that druids
are using today? Are there ancient forms that druids are using today? Is
it all in Gaelic?
Nick |
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| Back to top |
Wade
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: An introduction |
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| Quote: | Nick wrote:
I'd be inclined to suspect that one reason why writing
the stories down was forbidden was to allow the stories
to evolve. (I consider this to be a good thing.)
|
While what you say may have happened, it probably
wasn't a view embraced by the ancient Druids or Filidh.
Most of the 'evolution' probably took place during/after
the decline of the traditional order. As Druids were
replaced in the Chieftain's households by Christian
priests and later the Filidh began to evolve into less
important poetic orders and engaged more and more
in fawning praise poetry.
Just because something wasn't written down, doesn't
mean it wasn't intended to be passed on intact and
whole to later generations. The oral learning centers
were apparently quite strict and demanding. A parallel
case can be found among the Indian Brahmins. The
Brahmins were responsible for preserving knowledge
much like the Druids. There, an unbroken caste was
responsible for transmitting knowledge with great fidelity
for thousands of years. They were able to pass on tales
in a language long after the language had been forgotten.
When the language was later re-discovered, and written
texts compared to the oral tales, there was great
amazement over how well the oral tales had been
preserved.
Caesar records the Druids forbade writing for two
reasons. One: to preserve the strength of memory.
Two: to protect religious knowledge and preserve power.
A thousand years later the same sentiment shows up in the
Auraicep (a primer for training the Filidh). A tradition
recorded within its pages assigns the invention of the
Ogham to the god Ogma. It says Ogma was "a man
well skilled in speech and poetry." and that "this speech
should belong to the learned apart, to the exclusion of
rustics and herdsmen."
It is a somewhat romantic notion that oral learning
was meant to accommodate the easy evolution of tales.
The cultural realities of the old traditional societies
were highly stratified. People had their place and
knew exactly what their relationships to everyone
else were. They had clearly defined roles and equally
clearly defined status, honor price, obligations, duties,
and expectations. In a world where there was no TV
or radio or commonly available books, the traditional
tales would have been well known by all. A teller of
those tales had an obligation to recite them word for
word and almost everybody would have known if they
deviated even slightly from the established norm.
Now, this doesn't mean the Druids never changed.
And it doesn't mean the oral tales were like the
Christian bible. A statement that summarizes the
Filidh's responsibilities to update and adjust goes
like this: "he is no poet who does not synchronize
the traditional knowledge". I'm paraphrasing here
as I don't have the exact quote in front of me at the
moment. Essentially, the statement implies that the
learned had an obligation to consider what they
had been taught in the light of modern understandings.
So evolution was not only possible, it was an obligation.
| Quote: | Word-magic as you call it is wrapped up in the term
poetry. Poetry, in ancient times, was not just metrics
or rhyming, but was thought to reflect the language
of the gods. Cormac's Glossary puts it this way: "Draí,
that is aí (inspiration) will arrive, that is, a poem, for it is
by poetry he makes his spells."
Thanks for letting me know that. Are there modern poetic forms that
druids
are using today? Are there ancient forms that druids are using today? Is
it all in Gaelic?
|
There are examples of ancient curses, wards, invocations,
and kennings that are available to the modern Druid to use
as models. I believe Searles just posted a link to a resource
in his library that discusses poetics. As most people don't
speak Gaelic anymore, many (if not most) of the resources
have been translated into English. A good place to start
would be to learn about the Ogham.
---
Wade |
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Searles O'Dubhain
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: An introduction |
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"Wade" <xremovexwade180@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:XeCdneQsIvk-4FHdRVn-hg@comcast.com...
<snip>
| Quote: |
Now, this doesn't mean the Druids never changed.
And it doesn't mean the oral tales were like the
Christian bible. A statement that summarizes the
Filidh's responsibilities to update and adjust goes
like this: "he is no poet who does not synchronize
the traditional knowledge". I'm paraphrasing here
as I don't have the exact quote in front of me at the
moment. Essentially, the statement implies that the
learned had an obligation to consider what they
had been taught in the light of modern understandings.
So evolution was not only possible, it was an obligation.
|
"Ní fili nad chomgne comathar nad scéla uile" (He is no poet who does
not synchronize and preserve the ancient knowledge).
Searles |
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Nick Argall
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:02 am Post subject: Re: An introduction |
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|
"Wade" <xremovexwade180@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:XeCdneQsIvk-4FHdRVn-hg@comcast.com...
| Quote: | Nick wrote:
I'd be inclined to suspect that one reason why writing
the stories down was forbidden was to allow the stories
to evolve. (I consider this to be a good thing.)
While what you say may have happened, it probably
wasn't a view embraced by the ancient Druids or Filidh.
Most of the 'evolution' probably took place during/after
the decline of the traditional order.
|
It's interesting to compare this passage with what you wrote at the very
end! However, this raises the issue of the difference between a concept of
'evolution' and a concept of 'synchornization'. A thing that evolves
changes slowly over time. A thing that is synchronized is brought from the
past intact, and all of the changes that occur take place at the moment of
synchronization.
If this distinction is correct in the case of Druidic lore, then one would
expect the stories to exist in two forms. The first form would be a 'pure'
form, the story as it exists in preservation, and the other form would be a
'synchronized' form, which would be story as it is told to a particular
audience.
| Quote: | As Druids were
replaced in the Chieftain's households by Christian
priests and later the Filidh began to evolve into less
important poetic orders and engaged more and more
in fawning praise poetry.
Just because something wasn't written down, doesn't
mean it wasn't intended to be passed on intact and
whole to later generations. The oral learning centers
were apparently quite strict and demanding. A parallel
case can be found among the Indian Brahmins. The
Brahmins were responsible for preserving knowledge
much like the Druids. There, an unbroken caste was
responsible for transmitting knowledge with great fidelity
for thousands of years. They were able to pass on tales
in a language long after the language had been forgotten.
When the language was later re-discovered, and written
texts compared to the oral tales, there was great
amazement over how well the oral tales had been
preserved.
|
I would like the record to show that I did not dispute this in any way,
because I believe it :)
| Quote: | Caesar records the Druids forbade writing for two
reasons. One: to preserve the strength of memory.
Two: to protect religious knowledge and preserve power.
A thousand years later the same sentiment shows up in the
Auraicep (a primer for training the Filidh). A tradition
recorded within its pages assigns the invention of the
Ogham to the god Ogma. It says Ogma was "a man
well skilled in speech and poetry." and that "this speech
should belong to the learned apart, to the exclusion of
rustics and herdsmen."
|
A thing that I have observed is that knowledge that is kept secret has a
tendency to become powerful. From your statement here, I would suspect that
the druids have an equivalent belief.
| Quote: | It is a somewhat romantic notion that oral learning
was meant to accommodate the easy evolution of tales.
|
Romantic, yes. But I'll draw a distinction between 'romantic' and 'naive'.
This is because Taoism provides an example of an evolving written tradition.
The oldest Taoist texts date back to 400BCE or thereabouts. In the time
after that, numerous commentaries, clarifications and further observations
have been added to the catalogue of works considered 'canonical'.
As a Taoist, I believe that when a thing stops changing, it dies. I
percieve that druids hold a compatible view. But this 'synchronization' is
a form of changing that adapts while preserving an underlying thing that is
fixed. A suitable biological metaphor might be that the 'pure' story is
like bone (inflexible, hard, and not subject to rapid change), while the
synchronization process is like muscle (springy, elastic, movable, soft).
The bone is only useful because the muscle moves it. Without a bone to
connect to, the muscle's contractions are without meaning.
| Quote: | The cultural realities of the old traditional societies
were highly stratified. People had their place and
knew exactly what their relationships to everyone
else were. They had clearly defined roles and equally
clearly defined status, honor price, obligations, duties,
and expectations. In a world where there was no TV
or radio or commonly available books, the traditional
tales would have been well known by all. A teller of
those tales had an obligation to recite them word for
word and almost everybody would have known if they
deviated even slightly from the established norm.
|
Your statement about reciting a story word for word appears to contradict
the statement about synchronization. Unless the synchronization process
changed something other than the words?
| Quote: | Now, this doesn't mean the Druids never changed.
And it doesn't mean the oral tales were like the
Christian bible. A statement that summarizes the
Filidh's responsibilities to update and adjust goes
like this: "he is no poet who does not synchronize
the traditional knowledge". I'm paraphrasing here
as I don't have the exact quote in front of me at the
moment. Essentially, the statement implies that the
learned had an obligation to consider what they
had been taught in the light of modern understandings.
So evolution was not only possible, it was an obligation.
|
Thank you very much for covering the subject so completely, and exposing
some of the apparent paradoxes. I like trying to understand paradoxes.
| Quote: | Word-magic as you call it is wrapped up in the term
poetry. Poetry, in ancient times, was not just metrics
or rhyming, but was thought to reflect the language
of the gods. Cormac's Glossary puts it this way: "Draí,
that is aí (inspiration) will arrive, that is, a poem, for it is
by poetry he makes his spells."
Thanks for letting me know that. Are there modern poetic forms that
druids
are using today? Are there ancient forms that druids are using today?
Is
it all in Gaelic?
There are examples of ancient curses, wards, invocations,
and kennings that are available to the modern Druid to use
as models. I believe Searles just posted a link to a resource
in his library that discusses poetics. As most people don't
speak Gaelic anymore, many (if not most) of the resources
have been translated into English. A good place to start
would be to learn about the Ogham.
|
Thank you. Although I may wait until after my Chinese Literacy exam next
week before attempting another language!
Nick |
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| Back to top |
Wade
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:29 pm Post subject: Re: An introduction |
|
|
| Quote: | Nick wrote:
I'd be inclined to suspect that one reason why writing
the stories down was forbidden was to allow the stories
to evolve. (I consider this to be a good thing.)
While what you say may have happened, it probably
wasn't a view embraced by the ancient Druids or Filidh.
Most of the 'evolution' probably took place during/after
the decline of the traditional order.
It's interesting to compare this passage with what you wrote at the very
end!
|
Indeed. Obligations, just like psychological impulses, are
often contradictory and must be balanced. The impetus to
preserve intact versus the need to change and adapt.
| Quote: | However, this raises the issue of the difference between a concept of
'evolution' and a concept of 'synchornization'. A thing that evolves
changes slowly over time. A thing that is synchronized is brought from
the
past intact, and all of the changes that occur take place at the moment of
synchronization.
If this distinction is correct in the case of Druidic lore, then one would
expect the stories to exist in two forms. The first form would be a
'pure'
form, the story as it exists in preservation, and the other form would be
a
'synchronized' form, which would be story as it is told to a particular
audience.
|
The Irish tales exist in a multitude of forms. Though there
is a sense that most recessions stem from a "pure" (I use
that term guardedly) original. If one could find a surviving
copy of the earliest version it might represent a "pure"
version. Hmmm.... actually, with the Irish tales, one would
probably have to go back to a time before the tales were
written down to find a "pure" original. Unfortunately, by the
600-900s, (when many of the earliest versions of the tales
were being written down) things were not going all that well
for the Irish Druids. The traditional ways were changing.
Druids had lost much of their status. Christian priests had
displaced them in the households of the aristocrats. The
Filidh had inherited many of their functions. Druids no longer
presided over public sacrifice - the very face of public
religion had changed. Because of their lowered status,
their ranks were no longer filled with the sons and
daughters of the elite. In short, they were in decline. So,
by the time the first versions of the tales ever made it
to paper, they had already lost some of the fidelity the
Druids would have preserved.
Scholars accuse the powerful clans from the Ulster area
of reworking many of the tales in antiquity to promote
their greatness. Many scholars also accuse the Christian
scribes of "purifying" the texts when they set them to
paper, though one need only read them to see the flimsy
nature of that particular argument. Different versions of
the same tale evolved so differently that they were later
cobbled back together as one long tale with two separate
parts. Though the results are sometimes a bit messy, the
archetypes and themes still shine brightly through.
| Quote: | Caesar records the Druids forbade writing for two
reasons. One: to preserve the strength of memory.
Two: to protect religious knowledge and preserve power.
A thousand years later the same sentiment shows up in the
Auraicep (a primer for training the Filidh). A tradition
recorded within its pages assigns the invention of the
Ogham to the god Ogma. It says Ogma was "a man
well skilled in speech and poetry." and that "this speech
should belong to the learned apart, to the exclusion of
rustics and herdsmen."
A thing that I have observed is that knowledge that is kept secret has a
tendency to become powerful. From your statement here, I would suspect
that
the druids have an equivalent belief.
|
It would seem so. The concept was quite widespread
and can be found in almost every culture.
| Quote: | It is a somewhat romantic notion that oral learning
was meant to accommodate the easy evolution of tales.
Romantic, yes. But I'll draw a distinction between 'romantic' and
'naive'. |
Distinction noted. :^}
| Quote: | This is because Taoism provides an example of an evolving written
tradition.
The oldest Taoist texts date back to 400BCE or thereabouts. In the time
after that, numerous commentaries, clarifications and further observations
have been added to the catalogue of works considered 'canonical'.
As a Taoist, I believe that when a thing stops changing, it dies. I
percieve that druids hold a compatible view. But this 'synchronization'
is
a form of changing that adapts while preserving an underlying thing that
is
fixed. A suitable biological metaphor might be that the 'pure' story is
like bone (inflexible, hard, and not subject to rapid change), while the
synchronization process is like muscle (springy, elastic, movable, soft).
The bone is only useful because the muscle moves it. Without a bone to
connect to, the muscle's contractions are without meaning.
|
I like that metaphor.
| Quote: | The cultural realities of the old traditional societies
were highly stratified. People had their place and
knew exactly what their relationships to everyone
else were. They had clearly defined roles and equally
clearly defined status, honor price, obligations, duties,
and expectations. In a world where there was no TV
or radio or commonly available books, the traditional
tales would have been well known by all. A teller of
those tales had an obligation to recite them word for
word and almost everybody would have known if they
deviated even slightly from the established norm.
Your statement about reciting a story word for word appears to contradict
the statement about synchronization. Unless the synchronization process
changed something other than the words?
|
As stated earlier, obligations are often contradictory.
A father has an obligation to protect his son, yet he
also has an obligation to allow his son room to grow.
The two impulses are often at odds with one another
and must be balanced.
Notably, as the Druids' power declined in Ireland, a
class of Bards arose (it's possible they were always
there and just gained prominence). Though the term
is sometimes used interchangeably with Druid/seer/poet,
Irish law of the early middle ages made a clear distinction.
They were versifiers who were "without lawful learning".
They were not schooled like the Druids or Filidh and were
more interested in pleasing their audience than preserving
the stories intact. Because of their lower status, they
would have been given much more leeway in adding,
omitting or altering parts of the story lines. They may
be partly responsible for the muddled versions that
eventually made their way onto vellum.
<snip>
| Quote: | Thank you. Although I may wait until after my Chinese Literacy exam next
week before attempting another language!
Mandarin I presume? Good luck with the exam. |
I am just starting the beta testing phase of a web
based library. In a week or two the doors should
open to the general public. A regular contributor to
this group has written a book on the Ogham that is
the foundation of my admittedly quite small library.
I'd recommend you take a look at it when you get
a chance. It is a singular work and without doubt
one of the very best books available on the Ogham
and Druid religion. I'll post a link when the beta
testing is complete.
--
Wade |
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| Back to top |
Kevin Jones
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:26 am Post subject: Re: An introduction |
|
|
"Wade" <xremovexwade180@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dcWdnZqbgLaHfVDdRVn-uA@comcast.com...
| Quote: | Nick wrote:
I'd be inclined to suspect that one reason why writing
the stories down was forbidden was to allow the stories
to evolve. (I consider this to be a good thing.)
While what you say may have happened, it probably
wasn't a view embraced by the ancient Druids or Filidh.
Most of the 'evolution' probably took place during/after
the decline of the traditional order.
It's interesting to compare this passage with what you wrote at the very
end!
|
Hmm! Well traditional societies tend to evolve by reinterpreting their
traditions, rather than by abandoning them. Indeed, abandoning them is
probably not an option, because that means undoing the whole fabric of
society. Consequently the underlying lore can remain unchanged for very
long periods of time, while the interpretation of that lore develops. In
short, things both stay the same and change.
| Quote: | Unfortunately, by the
600-900s, (when many of the earliest versions of the tales
were being written down) things were not going all that well
for the Irish Druids. The traditional ways were changing.
Druids had lost much of their status. Christian priests had
displaced them in the households of the aristocrats. The
Filidh had inherited many of their functions. Druids no longer
presided over public sacrifice - the very face of public
religion had changed. Because of their lowered status,
their ranks were no longer filled with the sons and
daughters of the elite. In short, they were in decline. So,
by the time the first versions of the tales ever made it
to paper, they had already lost some of the fidelity the
Druids would have preserved.
|
Umm! I'd have a different take on that. I rather suspect that the use of the
term 'druid' changed. It had by that time effectively become the equivalent
of the Latin magus. Now the filidh were basically socially approved users of
magic - the druids and the satirists of the 8th-9th century operated outside
social approval. However, they had legal entitlements due to their
profession - they were for example entitled to the sick care of a bo-aire.
Now status wasn't absolute in Ireland - even the king's honour price was
reduced to that of a labourer if he performed manual work - but only for the
period that he performed manual work. A member of the elite - e.g. a file -
who illegally satirised someone or otherwise used magic outside the
acceptable social framework would lose his or her status. However, a member
of the lower orders who functioned as a magic user would at least be
entitled to the privileges of a bo-aire - a very attractive option if your
rank was below that of a bo-aire. The division was not therefore between
Christian and pagan, but between socially sanctioned magic users and
unsanctioned magic users - you see pretty much the same situation in
antiquity.
As it happens, there's very little evidence of a replacement of religion,
and a hell of a lot of evidence for syncretism. Similarly druids were
members of the elite, and belonged to the same families who controlled
society; they weren't a separate caste. Junking the druids means junking
elite families - there isn't any evidence for the upheaval that would
entail. The druids were also a central part of the legal structure - if
they were displaced, their replacements would of necessity be Christian,
which would be reflected by major elements in the laws. Actually there isn't
any evidence for major changes - it remains primarily indigenous law. Indeed
aspects of it rather upset the Church, which would hardly be the case if
Christians - which almost by definition would, in the early medieval period
mean bishops - had a hand in forming law. In fact the law was never the
prerogative of either the Church or the king, but remained in the hands of
independent legal specialists.
All in all, there isnt any evidence to support the idea that the druids
'fell out of favour', other than assuming that the model seen elsewhere in
Europe applies to Ireland. However much of the rest of Europe is a
completely different case - it was originally part of the Roman empire,
which was a centralised structure with laws issued by the emperor. The
successor state were also similarly centralised - all the Church had to do
was control the centre of power. Ireland had a completely different social,
political and legal structure. One cannot assume therefore that the
develoopment of Christianity in Ireland bears much similarity to the rest of
Europe - in fact there's a fair bit of evidence that it did not, including
quite startling bits of syncretism. Consequently asking if the filidh were
Christian or pagan is probably asking the wrong question, and assumes that
they would have recognised our classifications.
This brings us back to the idea of a 9th century druid - it is probable that
the use of the term in the 9th century differed from its use in, say, the
3rd or 4th century. In short, it is not a case of groups changing, but of
words shifting in meaning.
| Quote: | Scholars accuse the powerful clans from the Ulster area
of reworking many of the tales in antiquity to promote
their greatness. Many scholars also accuse the Christian
scribes of "purifying" the texts when they set them to
paper, though one need only read them to see the flimsy
nature of that particular argument. Different versions of
the same tale evolved so differently that they were later
cobbled back together as one long tale with two separate
parts. Though the results are sometimes a bit messy, the
archetypes and themes still shine brightly through.
|
Actually the major revisions came in the 17th century, when the filidh were
no longer a powerful force in Irish society. This was the result of the
destruction of traditional Gaelic society. It was at that point that various
churchmen decided to cleanse the stories of 'errors'. Had they tried this at
an earlier point, they'd have been facing a massive fine for presuming to
tread on the professional territory of the filidh.
| Quote: | Caesar records the Druids forbade writing for two
reasons. One: to preserve the strength of memory.
Two: to protect religious knowledge and preserve power.
A thousand years later the same sentiment shows up in the
Auraicep (a primer for training the Filidh). A tradition
recorded within its pages assigns the invention of the
Ogham to the god Ogma. It says Ogma was "a man
well skilled in speech and poetry." and that "this speech
should belong to the learned apart, to the exclusion of
rustics and herdsmen."
A thing that I have observed is that knowledge that is kept secret has a
tendency to become powerful. From your statement here, I would suspect
that
the druids have an equivalent belief.
It would seem so. The concept was quite widespread
and can be found in almost every culture.
|
BTW, it should be noted that Caesar mentions the druids forbade recording
their *teachings* in writing. He doesn't say anything about other uses of
writing being forbidden - he does however suggest that they can read, which
is why he encrypts his messages. In fact there is evidence of Gauls using
writing for various uses such as inscriptions or potter's marks. Presumably
they also used writing for trade.
| Quote: | It is a somewhat romantic notion that oral learning
was meant to accommodate the easy evolution of tales.
Romantic, yes. But I'll draw a distinction between 'romantic' and
'naive'.
Distinction noted. :^}
This is because Taoism provides an example of an evolving written
tradition.
The oldest Taoist texts date back to 400BCE or thereabouts. In the time
after that, numerous commentaries, clarifications and further
observations
have been added to the catalogue of works considered 'canonical'.
As a Taoist, I believe that when a thing stops changing, it dies. I
percieve that druids hold a compatible view. But this 'synchronization'
is
a form of changing that adapts while preserving an underlying thing that
is
fixed. A suitable biological metaphor might be that the 'pure' story is
like bone (inflexible, hard, and not subject to rapid change), while the
synchronization process is like muscle (springy, elastic, movable,
soft).
The bone is only useful because the muscle moves it. Without a bone to
connect to, the muscle's contractions are without meaning.
I like that metaphor.
The cultural realities of the old traditional societies
were highly stratified. People had their place and
knew exactly what their relationships to everyone
else were. They had clearly defined roles and equally
clearly defined status, honor price, obligations, duties,
and expectations. In a world where there was no TV
or radio or commonly available books, the traditional
tales would have been well known by all. A teller of
those tales had an obligation to recite them word for
word and almost everybody would have known if they
deviated even slightly from the established norm.
Your statement about reciting a story word for word appears to
contradict
the statement about synchronization. Unless the synchronization process
changed something other than the words?
As stated earlier, obligations are often contradictory.
A father has an obligation to protect his son, yet he
also has an obligation to allow his son room to grow.
The two impulses are often at odds with one another
and must be balanced.
|
Also synchronisation is the translators nearest English term for the
Gaelic - translation can result in a drift of meaning.
Kevin |
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Muiris Mag Ualghairg
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:54 am Post subject: Re: An introduction |
|
|
"Nick Argall" <nick.argall@aplaceof.removedotcom.info.com> wrote in message
news:40c9398a$0$3037$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
| Quote: | I'm going to break with my usual newsgroup tradition, and introduce myself
before participating in any threads.
My name really is Nick Argall, Argall being derived from Argol, a mining
village in Wales.
|
Could you tell me where this village is as I've never heard of it and I live
in Wales.
In another place, I use the name Laochbran, which I
| Quote: | invented by using a celtic dictionary and combining 'laoch' (raven) with
'bran' (warrior).
|
Don't want to sound too picky but you didn't use a 'celtic dictionary'.
Such a thing doesn't exist. You used an Irish dictionary. There are 6
extent Celtic languages - and they are all distinct languages (although the
boundary between dialect and language in the case of Irish, Gaelic and Manx
is hard to draw).
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Nick Argall
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:05 am Post subject: Re: An introduction |
|
|
"Muiris Mag Ualghairg" <muirismdimsbam@ntlworld.dimsbamcom> wrote in message
news:VkySc.788$QR6.324@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
| Quote: |
"Nick Argall" <nick.argall@aplaceof.removedotcom.info.com> wrote in
message
news:40c9398a$0$3037$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
I'm going to break with my usual newsgroup tradition, and introduce
myself
before participating in any threads.
My name really is Nick Argall, Argall being derived from Argol, a mining
village in Wales.
Could you tell me where this village is as I've never heard of it and I
live
in Wales.
|
I'm afraid not. My understanding that it comes from Argol (a quiet and
secluded place) is based on genealogical research by Ian Argall. At one
point, his study of the name was on the web where I could find it, but I
have misplaced the link.
It appears that most of the hard-rock miners of Argol left for the gold rush
in California, and almost everyone left went to the goldfields of Australia
when they were discovered. Certainly, the name Argall is more common in the
US and Australia than in the UK. (Not that it's a common name.)
| Quote: | In another place, I use the name Laochbran, which I
invented by using a celtic dictionary and combining 'laoch' (raven) with
'bran' (warrior).
Don't want to sound too picky but you didn't use a 'celtic dictionary'.
Such a thing doesn't exist. You used an Irish dictionary. There are 6
extent Celtic languages - and they are all distinct languages (although
the
boundary between dialect and language in the case of Irish, Gaelic and
Manx
is hard to draw).
|
Thank you for this. It occurs to me that mangling someone else's language
in the way that I did is a very disrespectful act. While I'm comfortable
with my intentions at the time, I have to say that I am somewhat embarassed
to confess using such a name in a place like this. Regardless, I appreciate
the correction. Accuracy is important.
Nick |
|
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Searles O'Dubhain
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: An introduction |
|
|
"Nick Argall" <nick.argall@aplaceof.removedotcom.info.com> wrote in
message news:411d9c1a$0$8211$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
<snip>
| Quote: |
Thank you for this. It occurs to me that mangling someone else's
language
in the way that I did is a very disrespectful act. While I'm
comfortable
with my intentions at the time, I have to say that I am somewhat
embarassed
to confess using such a name in a place like this. Regardless, I
appreciate
the correction. Accuracy is important.
|
Muris constantly attempts to address me as Searlas and Séarlas when the
spelling I use is Searles. I certainly am not disrespecting the Irish or
their language in my spelling. I just happen to like this spelling
better. After all, it is my name.
Searles |
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Muiris Mag Ualghairg
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: An introduction |
|
|
"Searles O'Dubhain" <odubhain@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:IdOdnfngHPqyXoDcRVn-oQ@giganews.com...
| Quote: | Muris constantly attempts to address me as Searlas and Séarlas when the
spelling I use is Searles. I certainly am not disrespecting the Irish or
their language in my spelling. I just happen to like this spelling
better. After all, it is my name.
|
Searles - I didn't even realise that you spell it Searles - I glance at it
and my mind fills in the rest - including the Irish spelling. I'm sorry if
I've caused you any offence.
Muiris
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Nick Argall
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: An introduction |
|
|
"Searles O'Dubhain" <odubhain@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:IdOdnfngHPqyXoDcRVn-oQ@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
"Nick Argall" <nick.argall@aplaceof.removedotcom.info.com> wrote in
message news:411d9c1a$0$8211$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
snip
Thank you for this. It occurs to me that mangling someone else's
language
in the way that I did is a very disrespectful act. While I'm
comfortable
with my intentions at the time, I have to say that I am somewhat
embarassed
to confess using such a name in a place like this. Regardless, I
appreciate
the correction. Accuracy is important.
Muris constantly attempts to address me as Searlas and Séarlas when the
spelling I use is Searles. I certainly am not disrespecting the Irish or
their language in my spelling. I just happen to like this spelling
better. After all, it is my name.
|
True. But I chose laochbran for myself, after being made aware of the
relevant issues regarding appropriating things from other cultures.
Therefore my culpability is greater.
Nick |
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