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buckeye
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 Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: Anything wrong with this? |
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alt.religion.deism
Jefferson's Church n State
dave ocean
More options Jul 16 2001, 8:15 pm
Newsgroups: alt.religion.deism
From: OCEA...@webtv.net (dave ocean)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:01:11 -0400 (EDT)
Local: Mon, Jul 16 2001 8:01 pm
Subject: Jefferson's Church n State
THE STATE BECOMES THE CHURCH:
JEFFERSON AND MADISON
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html
It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the
administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison
(1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his
inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House
of Representatives.
Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who
rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach
and four.
Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after
the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were
nondiscriminatory and voluntary.
Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests
began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female
evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation
in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded
audience."
Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in
executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the
Supreme Court chambers.
Jefferson's actions may seem surprising because his attitude toward
the relation between religion and government is usually thought to
have been embodied in his recommendation that there exist "a wall of
separation between church and state."
In that statement, Jefferson was apparently declaring his opposition,
as Madison had done in introducing the Bill of Rights, to a "national"
religion.
In attending church services on public property, Jefferson and Madison
consciously and deliberately were offering symbolic support to
religion as a prop for republican government.
Also:
The New England Primer
The New England Primer was the first textbook ever printed in America
and was used to teach reading and Bible lessons in our schools until
the twentieth century. This was used by many of the Founding Fathers
to teach their own children.(www.wallbuilders.com)
Also:
One of the first acts of the newly formed congress was to have the
Bible to be used in public schools. The Supreme court backed up this
decision 50 yrs later.
The USA was founded on Christianity,
not Deism.
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS ˇ Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
**************************************************************** |
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raven1
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Anything wrong with this? |
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On Sat, 24 May 2008 07:20:39 -0400, buckeye <buckeyeelo@nospam.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | The USA was founded on Christianity,
not Deism.
|
Actually, Jefferson was a Deist, who, however polite he may have been
in attending Christian services, specifically and explicitly rejected
the idea of the divinity of Christ. |
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buckeye
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Anything wrong with this? |
|
|
raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote:
| Quote: | :|On Sat, 24 May 2008 07:20:39 -0400, buckeye <buckeyeelo@nospam.net
:|wrote:
>The USA was founded on Christianity,
>not Deism.
:|Actually, Jefferson was a Deist, who, however polite he may have been
:|in attending Christian services, specifically and explicitly rejected
:|the idea of the divinity of Christ.
|
He was more of a Unitarian than a Deist.
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS ˇ Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
**************************************************************** |
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|
| Back to top |
ZerkonX
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: Anything wrong with this? |
|
|
On Sat, 24 May 2008 07:20:39 -0400, buckeye wrote:
| Quote: | Re: Anything wrong with this?
|
Yes and no.
Ideals are not found in the absolutes of behavior. Behaviors can change
to further or diminish the ideal while the ideas themselves remain. Ideal
is the timeless beacon which guide the contemporary behaviors of the day.
[Insert slavery example here]
Jefferson and Madison did betrayed their own ideals, I suspect, for the
sake of a political harmony. 1800 being thought of as a second American
revolution, Jefferson's ideals gave way to the political pragmatic of
appeasement.
At any rate, it shouldn't matter what 'they' did then about this as it
does not matter what they were doing concerning slavery.
That being said, unlike then we now have a huge gap between the allowable
religious practices of those inside the political class and the society
which has hired them. It is an injustice on both sides of the opinion
aisle.
| Quote: | The USA was founded on Christianity..
|
No it was not. At best, it was founded with Christianity, or Deism, or
whatever-ism, but not upon it. A big difference. No other proof is needed
for this than what the USC literally does not say. If the US had been
founded 'on' Christianity this would have been put into writing. It's
omission was an intended, purposeful and very wise exclusion of all
Church -isms which includes atheism. |
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buckeye
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Anything wrong with this? |
|
|
ZerkonX <Z@X.net> wrote:
| Quote: | :|On Sat, 24 May 2008 07:20:39 -0400, buckeye wrote:
>Re: Anything wrong with this?
:|Yes and no.
:|Ideals are not found in the absolutes of behavior. Behaviors can change
:|to further or diminish the ideal while the ideas themselves remain. Ideal
:|is the timeless beacon which guide the contemporary behaviors of the day.
[Insert slavery example here]
:|Jefferson and Madison did betrayed their own ideals, I suspect, for the
:|sake of a political harmony. 1800 being thought of as a second American
:|revolution, Jefferson's ideals gave way to the political pragmatic of
:|appeasement.
|
You forgot to provide any evidence .
| Quote: | :|At any rate, it shouldn't matter what 'they' did then about this as it
:|does not matter what they were doing concerning slavery.
:|That being said, unlike then we now have a huge gap between the allowable
:|religious practices of those inside the political class and the society
:|which has hired them. It is an injustice on both sides of the opinion
:|aisle.
> The USA was founded on Christianity..
:|No it was not. At best, it was founded with Christianity, or Deism, or
:|whatever-ism, but not upon it. A big difference. No other proof is needed
:|for this than what the USC literally does not say. If the US had been
:|founded 'on' Christianity this would have been put into writing. It's
:|omission was an intended, purposeful and very wise exclusion of all
:|Church -isms which includes atheism.
|
The question was asked by me referring the so called facts and the meanings
of those so called facts, if any the original author included in his
commentary.
Do you have any comments in that direction?
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS ˇ Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
**************************************************************** |
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