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 Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 12:28 am Post subject: Downing Street Memo |
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http://www.markdanner.com/nyreview/060905_secret.htm
Dirk asked about coverage of the Downing Street Memo in the US, and I
recently mentioned Mark Danner's articles in the NYRB as good
refutations of the FoxWorld "a few bad apples" narrative of Abu Ghraib.
This link combines the two (the Abu Ghraib articles are elsewhere on
the site).
Eric
Progressive links
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5056/Links.html |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Downing Street Memo |
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To sign the Congressional petition:
http://www.johnconyers.com/index.asp?Type=SUPERFORMS&SEC={303E7112-D7ED-463C-A142-6D3078C9CB82}
hulk_arnold_hercules@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: | http://www.markdanner.com/nyreview/060905_secret.htm
Dirk asked about coverage of the Downing Street Memo in the US, and I
recently mentioned Mark Danner's articles in the NYRB as good
refutations of the FoxWorld "a few bad apples" narrative of Abu Ghraib.
This link combines the two (the Abu Ghraib articles are elsewhere on
the site).
Eric
Progressive links
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5056/Links.html |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:18 am Post subject: Re: Downing Street Memo |
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Another quickie post (from the new Talking Points Memo group blog, the
author is a reporter on the Congressional newsletter, The Hill),
perhaps of particular interest to Dirk...
http://www.tpmcafe.com/author/joshtpm
All a Big Misunderstanding
By Joshua Micah Marshall Section: Politics
A reader has a post on his/her TPMCafe blog which explains that some
are now trying to play down the significance of the so-called Downing
Street Memo by arguing that the phrase "fixed around" has a different
idiomatic meaning in British English than it does over here in the
states and that it isn't really meant to imply that the intel was being
'fixed' in our sense of the word. The post goes into detail about how
this can't or problem isn't true.
But if this is just a matter of our not getting the subtleties of how
they speak the language in the UK, why are the folks over there so
up-in-arms about the memo? Doesn't that pretty much put this excuse to
bed?
(Hyperlinks at the link). |
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Scott Lowther
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:40 am Post subject: Re: Downing Street Memo |
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http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2005/06/09/impeachment/index3.html
....
At the very worst, Bush was committed, early on and for multiple
reasons, to using force to remove a brutal dictator from office, and he
hyped and distorted the evidence to convince the American public of the
need for imminent military action. (In my own view, by the way, Bush
believed in good faith that Saddam posed a genuine threat to American
security, partly because of Saddam's willingness to support terror,
partly because of Saddam's own military goals.)
Compare the behavior of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt in World War
II, who secretly and unlawfully transferred arms -- including more than
20,000 airplanes -- to England. Roosevelt deceived both Congress and the
American public about what he was doing. It would have been preposterous
to claim that Roosevelt thereby committed an impeachable offense.
So too for Bush. In any four-year period, the nation's leader is highly
likely to deceive the public on a serious matter at least once --
sometimes inadvertently, sometimes for legitimate reasons, sometimes for
illegitimate ones. Of course presidents should not exaggerate evidence,
and it's perfectly proper to ask whether Bush got us into war under
false pretenses. But there isn't anything close to a sufficient basis
for impeachment.
....
Impeach Roosevelt Now! His war against Germany was illegal and
illegitimate!!!
Or... recognize sense. |
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robert bowman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Downing Street Memo |
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Scott Lowther wrote:
| Quote: |
Compare the behavior of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt in World War
II, who secretly and unlawfully transferred arms -- including more than
20,000 airplanes -- to England. Roosevelt deceived both Congress and the
American public about what he was doing. It would have been preposterous
to claim that Roosevelt thereby committed an impeachable offense.
|
You are correct. FDR and Bush's warmongering are cut from the same cloth. In
fact, there are many similarities between the two administrations. I do not
take a lot of comfort in that fact.
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PSn
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Downing Street Memo |
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Let's compare the two situations:
1) Hitler- Heading up a massive military buildup, aggressively conquering
his neighbors and our allies.
2) Saddam- Military in shambles, totally contained within his borders and
unable to project force in any meaningful way, due to reallocating military
funds to sate his love of golden toilets.
Yup, EXACTLY the same situation.
When are we going to take down the other dictators we propped up during the
Cold War?
"Scott Lowther" <scottlowther@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOK.com> wrote in message
news:vz3qe.622$GU7.349@news02.roc.ny...
| Quote: | http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2005/06/09/impeachment/index3.html
...
At the very worst, Bush was committed, early on and for multiple
reasons, to using force to remove a brutal dictator from office, and he
hyped and distorted the evidence to convince the American public of the
need for imminent military action. (In my own view, by the way, Bush
believed in good faith that Saddam posed a genuine threat to American
security, partly because of Saddam's willingness to support terror,
partly because of Saddam's own military goals.)
Compare the behavior of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt in World War
II, who secretly and unlawfully transferred arms -- including more than
20,000 airplanes -- to England. Roosevelt deceived both Congress and the
American public about what he was doing. It would have been preposterous
to claim that Roosevelt thereby committed an impeachable offense.
So too for Bush. In any four-year period, the nation's leader is highly
likely to deceive the public on a serious matter at least once --
sometimes inadvertently, sometimes for legitimate reasons, sometimes for
illegitimate ones. Of course presidents should not exaggerate evidence,
and it's perfectly proper to ask whether Bush got us into war under
false pretenses. But there isn't anything close to a sufficient basis
for impeachment.
...
Impeach Roosevelt Now! His war against Germany was illegal and
illegitimate!!!
Or... recognize sense. |
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Scott Lowther
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Downing Street Memo |
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robert bowman wrote:
| Quote: | Scott Lowther wrote:
Compare the behavior of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt in World War
II, who secretly and unlawfully transferred arms -- including more than
20,000 airplanes -- to England. Roosevelt deceived both Congress and the
American public about what he was doing. It would have been preposterous
to claim that Roosevelt thereby committed an impeachable offense.
You are correct. FDR and Bush's warmongering are cut from the same cloth. In
fact, there are many similarities between the two administrations. I do not
take a lot of comfort in that fact.
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So long as Bush doesn't Yalta like Roosevelt.... |
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robert bowman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Downing Street Memo |
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Scott Lowther wrote:
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So long as Bush doesn't Yalta like Roosevelt....
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That bit of ass kissing with Putin might have been a practice run. However,
since it's your claim that a president can't really do anything, nothing
happened at Yalta.
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: Downing Street Memo |
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Actually...
1) Hitler- Military in shambles, totally contained within his borders
and
unable to project force in any meaningful way, due to reallocating
military
funds to sate his love of golden toilets.
2) Saddam- Military in shambles, totally contained within his borders
and
unable to project force in any meaningful way, due to reallocating
military
funds to sate his love of golden toilets.
Europe waited while Hitler got his shit together. They waited too long. |
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Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: Downing Street Memo |
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lexcorp@ix.netcom.com wrote:
| Quote: | Actually...
1) Hitler- Military in shambles, totally contained within his borders
and
unable to project force in any meaningful way, due to reallocating
military
funds to sate his love of golden toilets.
2) Saddam- Military in shambles, totally contained within his borders
and
unable to project force in any meaningful way, due to reallocating
military
funds to sate his love of golden toilets.
Europe waited while Hitler got his shit together. They waited too long.
Yup! Had we waited but a mere twenty years we would have had Saddam and his evil |
Iraqi troops storming the beaches of England after crushing Europe while his
Republican Guard conquered New York...
FFF
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: Downing Street Memo |
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| Quote: | Had we waited but a mere twenty years we would have had Saddam and his evil
Iraqi troops storming the beaches of England after crushing Europe ... |
You say that like it's a joke. But Eurabia is already on the verge of
collapse; leaving Saddam to do as he wanted, as Europe was doing, would
not have been in their long-term best interests.
I'm sure a great many Brit pundits around 1933 or so saw Hitler as just
another goon who would make no particular impact. |
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Romauld
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: Downing Street Memo |
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Recently, a script from lexcorp@ix.netcom.com arrived, in which they said:
: I'm sure a great many Brit pundits around 1933 or so saw Hitler as just
: another goon who would make no particular impact.
Many British (and American) pundits in 1933 saw Hitler as a goon
who would make an impact in a positive way, and by 1936 they were
all saying they were right. Many of them were involved in large
scale international finance dealings with him.
~R
--
Romauld - romauld at necrotheque dot dcu
All Pagans who think of themselves as Elders should read this:
http://www.partiallyclips.com/pages/archive.php?id=1021&b=1 |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Downing Street Memo |
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Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
| Quote: | Yup! Had we waited but a mere twenty years we would have had Saddam and his evil
Iraqi troops storming the beaches of England after crushing Europe while his
Republican Guard conquered New York...
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What Iraqi would not look at Yuma and the Colorado River and think,
"Lebensraum!"
Eric |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:33 am Post subject: Re: Downing Street Memo |
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| Quote: | What Iraqi would not look at Yuma and the Colorado River and think,
"Lebensraum!" |
Probably the ones murdered by Saddam and by the Islamist nutjobs from
other countries now pretending to be Iraqi "insurgents." |
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Post Colonial Boy
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:40 am Post subject: Re: Downing Street Memo |
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On 10 Jun 2005 10:38:09 -0700, lexcorp@ix.netcom.com wrote:
| Quote: | Had we waited but a mere twenty years we would have had Saddam and his evil
Iraqi troops storming the beaches of England after crushing Europe ...
You say that like it's a joke.
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Because it is.
| Quote: | But Eurabia is already on the verge of
collapse; leaving Saddam to do as he wanted, as Europe was doing, would
not have been in their long-term best interests.
I'm sure a great many Brit pundits around 1933 or so saw Hitler as just
another goon who would make no particular impact.
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Saddam has already had *plenty* of time and a plentiful supply of
American and British weaponry...remember the Iran-Iraq war?
Fantastic...not...
Nik |
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