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Scott Lowther
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 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
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liberalbear@lycos.com wrote:
| Quote: | lexcorp@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Likewise, tribal Pakistani concepts of "honor killings" do not negate Western laws against murder.
Then why do Islamic concepts about mishandling a book translate into
rage over a guard *touching* that book in the west?
but admitted he hadn't.
1. Rage and law are two different things.
2. There are any number of legal restrictions- US and international- on
denigration and abuse of prisoners on religious grounds.
Touching a friggen' book is a wholly unreasonable definition of "abuse." |
Yet it's one that causes Islamists to go apeshit.
| Quote: | 3. Accusations of such denigration and abuse is well-documented.
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Accusations are wonderful things. Don;t need proof or nuthin'. |
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Scott Lowther
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
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liberalbear@lycos.com wrote:
| Quote: | lexcorp@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Likewise, tribal Pakistani concepts of "honor killings" do not negate Western laws against murder.
Then why do Islamic concepts about mishandling a book translate into
rage over a guard *touching* that book in the west?
but admitted he hadn't.
1. Rage and law are two different things.
2. There are any number of legal restrictions- US and international- on
denigration and abuse of prisoners on religious grounds.
3. Accusations of such denigration and abuse is well-documented.
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Indeed so. Behold:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/03/guantanamo.quran/index.html
A U.S. military investigation into the mishandling of the Muslim holy
book at the Guantanamo Bay prison for suspected terrorists has
determined that detainees -- not U.S. soldiers -- attempted to flush the
Quran down the toilet there.
However, the report did find four confirmed incidents in which U.S.
personnel at the base mishandled the Quran, including guards kicking a
detainee's Quran; a guard's urine "splashed" a detainee and his holy
book after coming through an air vent; and guards got in a water balloon
fight that resulted in two detainees' Qurans getting wet.
In a fifth confirmed incident, it could not be determined whether a
guard or a detainee wrote a two-word obscenity in a detainee's Quran.
The findings of the report, issued by Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, commander of
the detention center in Cuba, were released late Friday. They found no
evidence to support allegations that U.S. soldiers attempted to flush
the Muslim holy book down the toilet.
The investigation was prompted after a Newsweek article citing unnamed
sources made such a claim -- prompting violent protests in Afghanistan
and other parts of the Muslim world that left more than a dozen people
dead. (Full story
<http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/05/27/muslim.protests.ap/index.html/>)
Newsweek has since retracted the story.
The Hood report cited three separate incidents in which detainees tried
to flush the Quran down the toilet.
In one incident, on February 23, 2004, the report said a guard saw a
"detainee place two Qurans in his toilet and state he no longer cared
about the Quran or his religion.
Five minutes later, after the detainee retrieved the Qurans, he ripped
several pages out of one Quran and threw the pages on the floor. Then,
he placed both Qurans on the sink."
Another time, on January 19, 2005, a detainee "tore up his Quran and
tried to flush it down the toilet. Four guards witnessed the incident,"
the report said.
The report also cited 12 other incidents by detainees, including one who
used his Quran as a pillow, another who urinated on his holy book and
several who ripped pages from the Quran.
Capt. Jeff Weir, an Army spokesman at the facility, told CNN in a phone
interview that the detainees were typically trying to stage some form of
protest when they mishandled the Quran.
Hood said investigators reviewed more than 30,000 documents in an
exhaustive probe.
"The inquiry found no credible evidence that a member of the Joint Task
Force at Guantanamo Bay ever flushed a Quran down a toilet. This matter
is considered closed," the report said.
It said the U.S. military has issued more than 1,600 copies of the Quran
since January 2002, conducted more than 28,000 interrogations and
carried out thousands of "cell moves."
"Mishandling a Quran at Guantanamo Bay is a rare occurrence," Hood said.
"Mishandling of a Quran here is never condoned."
The investigators defined mishandling as "touching, holding or the
treatment of a Quran in a manner inconsistent with policy or procedure."
Hood said the investigative team looked into 19 incidents involving
allegations of mishandling of the holy book, only five of which could be
confirmed.
Ten of the incidents did not involve mishandling of the Quran, the
report concluded. Four incidents could not be verified.
According to the report, the five confirmed incidents were:
# In February 2002, a detainee complained that guards kicked the Quran
belonging to a detainee in a nearby cell.
# On July 25, 2003, a contract interrogator apologized to a detainee for
stepping on his Quran in an earlier interview. The interrogator was
later fired "for a pattern of unacceptable behavior, an inability to
follow direct guidance and poor leadership."
# On August 15, 2003, night shift guards threw water balloons in a cell
block, wetting the Qurans of two detainees.
# On August 21, 2003, a detainee complained that a "two-word obscenity had
been written in English on the inside cover of his English version
Quran." The report noted that the detainee knew English and Arabic, and
it could not be determined exactly who wrote the phrase. "It is possible
that a guard committed this act; it is equally possible that the
detainee wrote in his own Quran."
# On March 25, 2005, a detainee said "urine came through an air vent" and
"splashed on him and his Quran while he laid near the air vent." A guard
admitted he was at fault, saying he urinated near an air vent and the
"wind blew his urine through the vent into the block." The detainee was
given a new uniform and Quran. The guard was reprimanded and placed on
gate guard duty away from detainees.
Weir, the Army spokesman at the facility, said about 540 suspected
terrorists are housed at the maximum security prison. Noting that only
five incidents of mishandling of the Quran could be confirmed, he said,
"I will stand by the record here: It's outstanding."
He said even if a U.S. soldier was "contemplating misbehaving," it would
be extremely difficult.
"Nothing goes unchecked in Guantanamo Bay," he said. "Everything is
documented."
There are about 540 detainees at Guantanamo Bay. Some have been there
more than three years without being charged with a crime. Most were
captured on the battlefields of Afghanistan in 2001 and 2002 and were
sent to Guantanamo Bay in hope of extracting useful intelligence about
the al Qaeda terrorist network.
Both U.S. President George W. Bush and Defense Secretary Donald H.
Rumsfeld have denounced an Amnesty International report that called the
U.S. detention center at Guantanamo Bay "the gulag of our time."
The president told reporters at a press conference on Tuesday that the
report by the human-rights group was "absurd."
On Wednesday, Rumsfeld called the characterization "reprehensible" and
said the U.S. military had taken care to ensure that detainees were free
to practice their religion.
However, he also acknowledged that some detainees had been mistreated,
even "grievously" at times. (Full story)
<http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/01/us.gitmo/index.html/> |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
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Scott Lowther wrote:
| Quote: | Indeed so. Behold:
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Yes, this is old news, too, that some prisoners also damaged Korans.
There is a bit of a difference between someone locked up without trial
and someone responsible for those who are locked up, certainly
international law recognizes a whole set of different obligations.
Nonetheless, if you were to burn your copy of the Eddas, it'd not make
mine fair game. And, as is pretty clear by worldwide reaction, those
who damaged their Korans do not represent a majority opinion.
| Quote: | However, (Rumsfeld) also acknowledged that some detainees had been mistreated,
even "grievously" at times.
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Also old news. As the photographs of Abu Ghraib reveal, accusations of
abuse must be taken seriously, especially when the likes of Bush and
Cheney call others "liars".
Eric |
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robert bowman
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
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Scott Lowther wrote:
| Quote: | Touching a friggen' book is a wholly unreasonable definition of "abuse."
Yet it's one that causes Islamists to go apeshit.
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Set a piece of red, white, and blue cloth on fire, then piss on it to put
the flames out, and see what response you get from an Amurkin.
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Scott Lowther
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
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liberalbear@lycos.com wrote:
| Quote: | Scott Lowther wrote:
Indeed so. Behold:
Yes, this is old news, too, that some prisoners also damaged Korans.
There is a bit of a difference between someone locked up without trial
and someone responsible for those who are locked up, certainly
international law recognizes a whole set of different obligations.
Nonetheless, if you were to burn your copy of the Eddas, it'd not make
mine fair game.
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Unless your copy was, in fact, owned by me.
Welcome to the penal system!
| Quote: | And, as is pretty clear by worldwide reaction, those
who damaged their Korans do not represent a majority opinion.
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And yet, you will tar the entire administration by those few. |
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Scott Lowther
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
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robert bowman wrote:
| Quote: | Scott Lowther wrote:
Touching a friggen' book is a wholly unreasonable definition of "abuse."
Yet it's one that causes Islamists to go apeshit.
Set a piece of red, white, and blue cloth on fire, then piss on it to put
the flames out, and see what response you get from an Amurkin.
Rioting Americans halfway around the planet? Sorry, no. I've seen lots |
of goobers burning the US flag. Never once have I even heard of someone
going nonlinear because of it unless they were *right* *there*. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
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Scott Lowther wrote:
| Quote: | Welcome to the penal system!
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Those tasked with the care of prisoners have higher legal and ethical
standards to meet, precisely because of the power relationship.
| Quote: | And, as is pretty clear by worldwide reaction, those
who damaged their Korans do not represent a majority opinion.
And yet, you will tar the entire administration by those few.
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I criticize the government- a criticism from a nobody in a group which
maybe 25 people regularly read- in a way that nowhere nearly tars them
as much as their war and related policies. Again, the memo trail only
grows clearer that the abuse of prisoners was sanctioned at the highest
levels of the administration.
That, even after Abu Ghraib, Bush and Cheney (neither with a very good
record when it comes to being truthful) characterize accusers as
"terrorists" (though they were released because the evidence was
lacking) and "liars" (though similar accounts of abuse arise again and
again, around the world) shows- me, anyway- that they are culpable and
covering-up. Again.
Eric |
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Post Colonial Boy
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
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On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 01:11:34 GMT, Scott Lowther
<scottlowther@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOK.com> wrote:
| Quote: | hulk_arnold_hercules@yahoo.com wrote:
a consistent position, and mine, is to
decry the abuse of the daughter ...
Come now. You're just being culturally insensitive. Where is your
outrage over the treatment of this man? He's been sent to jail and he
hasn't even had a trial yet!
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Scott...Eric has been clear in his denunciation of this man's
behaviour and all you can come out with is this crap?
Piss poor effort.
Nik |
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Post Colonial Boy
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
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On 3 Jun 2005 11:43:42 -0700, lexcorp@ix.netcom.com wrote:
| Quote: | Likewise, tribal Pakistani concepts of "honor killings" do not negate Western laws against murder.
Then why do Islamic concepts about mishandling a book translate into
rage over a guard *touching* that book in the west?
http://www.freerepublic.com/^http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=7648
...
According to recently released FBI documents, which are inaccurately
heralded by civil liberties activists and military-bashers as
irrefutable evidence of widespread "atrocities" at Gitmo:
A significant number of detainees' complaints were either exaggerated
or fabricated (no surprise given al Qaeda's explicit instructions to
trainees to lie).
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I could quite believe that Al Qaeda do indeed instruct their trainees
thusly...but how the hell do you *know* this is the case?
Nik |
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Post Colonial Boy
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
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On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:30:43 GMT, Scott Lowther
<scottlowther@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOK.com> wrote:
| Quote: | liberalbear@lycos.com wrote:
lexcorp@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Likewise, tribal Pakistani concepts of "honor killings" do not negate Western laws against murder.
Then why do Islamic concepts about mishandling a book translate into
rage over a guard *touching* that book in the west?
but admitted he hadn't.
1. Rage and law are two different things.
2. There are any number of legal restrictions- US and international- on
denigration and abuse of prisoners on religious grounds.
Touching a friggen' book
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Scott, you're using the name of one of the Aesir in a manner that is
less than respectful...are you sure that you're Asatru?
I, for one, am not.
Nik |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
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No riots thus far.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/inland/la-me-mosque4jun04,1,3127589.story?ctrack=1&cset=true
Desert Mosque Burns to Ground
San Bernardino County officials suspect arson or a hate crime. Federal
investigators called in.
By Lance Pugmire
Times Staff Writer
June 4, 2005
A suspicious fire gutted a mosque early Friday in the high desert city
of Adelanto, the site of Southern California's only cemetery built
exclusively for Muslims.
San Bernardino County arson investigators who inspected the ruins of
the United Islamic Youth Organization mosque believe that the blaze was
possibly arson or a hate crime, authorities said.
"We can't rule that out until we look at everything," said San
Bernardino County Fire Department spokeswoman Tracey Martinez, who
added that federal investigators had been summoned to the scene,
accessible by a dirt road east of Highway 395.
The fire was labeled suspicious because the 1,500-square-foot mosque on
Morning Glory Street did not have electric or gas service, ruling out
an electrical fire or a gas leak as possible causes. Power was provided
by a portable generator that was not on the premises, Martinez said.
A truck driver on Highway 395 reported the blaze at 4:24 a.m. Friday.
Firefighters arrived 20 minutes later to find the mosque "fully
involved," Martinez said. Only two of the mosque's gray stucco walls
remained standing. Korans and prayer rugs were among the items lost in
the fire, said Seyed Mousavi, a board member of the mosque.
Mousavi said he wanted answers: "The only thing we're afraid of is that
someone who doesn't like Muslims found out this is the only Islamic
cemetery in the U.S."
He said the mosque served as a spiritual center for visitors who came
to bury relatives and friends in the cemetery of 600 graves, all facing
northeast toward Mecca, in Saudi Arabia, according to Islamic custom.
The cemetery had drawn burial requests from Muslims as far away as
Chicago and had a reserved waiting list of 1,000 people, he said.
"The significance of that cemetery is great to Muslims in Southern
California, and if this is arson, that's a big insult to our
community," said Mustafa Kuko, director of the Islamic Center of
Riverside. "The Muslim looks at the mosque as a home. They don't have
all the clues yet, but it's like someone has burned down one of our
homes."
The mosque and cemetery were built by Zaid Assfy, who died in 2000. He
opened the cemetery to Sunni and Shiite Muslims. Gatherings for
families and religious celebrations, such as Eid al Fitr, the day after
Ramadan, drew visitors to the mosque, but Friday prayers were not
scheduled there, Mousavi said.
"No one has condemned us. As far as I know, there are no problems with
our community," Mousavi said.
A spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations in Orange
County urged a thorough investigation.
"We're extremely concerned about this, and we want law enforcement to
take proactive steps in bringing possible perpetrators to justice,"
spokesman Ra'id Faraj said. "If this is arson or a hate crime, events
like this scare the community." |
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Scott Lowther
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:53 am Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
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Post Colonial Boy wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 01:11:34 GMT, Scott Lowther
scottlowther@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOK.com> wrote:
hulk_arnold_hercules@yahoo.com wrote:
a consistent position, and mine, is to
decry the abuse of the daughter ...
Come now. You're just being culturally insensitive. Where is your
outrage over the treatment of this man? He's been sent to jail and he
hasn't even had a trial yet!
Scott...Eric has been clear in his denunciation of this man's
behaviour
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But he's not denouncing the polkice for arresting him. In his culture,
beating the crap out of your daughter for talkign to a boy on a phone
(i.e. being a dirty, dirty whore) is not exactly unheard of. Thus, Utah
is imposing Western morality and ethics on this man. How are we to win
over the peopel who think as this guy does when we arrest them for doign
what they normally do? |
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Scott Lowther
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
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Post Colonial Boy wrote:
| Quote: | On 3 Jun 2005 11:43:42 -0700, lexcorp@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Likewise, tribal Pakistani concepts of "honor killings" do not negate Western laws against murder.
Then why do Islamic concepts about mishandling a book translate into
rage over a guard *touching* that book in the west?
http://www.freerepublic.com/^http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=7648
...
According to recently released FBI documents, which are inaccurately
heralded by civil liberties activists and military-bashers as
irrefutable evidence of widespread "atrocities" at Gitmo:
A significant number of detainees' complaints were either exaggerated
or fabricated (no surprise given al Qaeda's explicit instructions to
trainees to lie).
I could quite believe that Al Qaeda do indeed instruct their trainees
thusly...but how the hell do you *know* this is the case?
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Read the link. Those aren;t my words. |
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Scott Lowther
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
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Post Colonial Boy wrote:
| Quote: |
are you sure that you're Asatru?
I, for one, am not.
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Ah, Nik the Asa-Pope returns!!!! |
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Post Colonial Boy
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
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On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 01:55:10 GMT, Scott Lowther
<scottlowther@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOK.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Post Colonial Boy wrote:
are you sure that you're Asatru?
I, for one, am not.
Ah, Nik the Asa-Pope returns!!!!
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I note that you've snipped your offending text. I will remedy that:
Scott Lowther> "Touching a friggen' book is a wholly unreasonable
Scott Lowther> definition of "abuse." Yet it's one that causes Scott
Lowther> Islamists to go apeshit."
You're the one who took the name of the most powerful of the Aesir
Goddesses in vain...not very respectful of the Aesir is it? Not
particularly Asatru is it?
Nik |
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