| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Guest
|
 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
 |
|
Scott Lowther wrote:
| Quote: | Post Colonial Boy wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 01:11:34 GMT, Scott Lowther
scottlowther@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOK.com> wrote:
hulk_arnold_hercules@yahoo.com wrote:
a consistent position, and mine, is to
decry the abuse of the daughter ...
Come now. You're just being culturally insensitive. Where is your
outrage over the treatment of this man? He's been sent to jail and he
hasn't even had a trial yet!
Scott...Eric has been clear in his denunciation of this man's
behaviour
But he's not denouncing the polkice for arresting him. In his culture,
beating the crap out of your daughter for talkign to a boy on a phone
(i.e. being a dirty, dirty whore) is not exactly unheard of. Thus, Utah
is imposing Western morality and ethics on this man. How are we to win
over the peopel who think as this guy does when we arrest them for doign
what they normally do?
I think you'll find that he will be given a fair trial, access to lawyers of his |
choice, tried by a jury, with witnesses against him having to testify and
protected from abuse by the law.
What *won't* happen is him being shipped to a concentration camp to be held
indefinately without trial and being subjected to torture.
Those are the two faces of the US system, and - guess what! - we only approve of
one of those options. Unlike you.
FFF
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org |
|
| |
|
 Back to top |
Scott Lowther
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
|
|
Post Colonial Boy wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 01:55:10 GMT, Scott Lowther
scottlowther@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOK.com> wrote:
Post Colonial Boy wrote:
are you sure that you're Asatru?
I, for one, am not.
Ah, Nik the Asa-Pope returns!!!!
I note that you've snipped your offending text. I will remedy that:
Scott Lowther> "Touching a friggen' book is a wholly unreasonable
Scott Lowther> definition of "abuse." Yet it's one that causes Scott
Lowther> Islamists to go apeshit."
You're the one who took the name of the most powerful of the Aesir
Goddesses in vain...
|
ERRRR. Wrong, Asa-Pope Nik the First. LAst I checked, there's no Aesir
goddess name of "Friggen." |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Scott Lowther
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
|
|
Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
| Quote: |
What *won't* happen is him being shipped to a concentration camp to be
held indefinately without trial and being subjected to torture.
Those are the two faces of the US system, and - guess what! - we only
approve of one of those options. Unlike you.
|
Tell me: are you sufficiently delusional that you actually believe that? |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
|
|
Scott Lowther wrote:
| Quote: | Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
What *won't* happen is him being shipped to a concentration camp to be
held indefinately without trial and being subjected to torture.
Those are the two faces of the US system, and - guess what! - we only
approve of one of those options. Unlike you.
Tell me: are you sufficiently delusional that you actually believe that?
|
What? That the US holds people without trial or access to lawyers and tortures them?
Yep.
FFF
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Scott Lowther
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
|
|
Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
| Quote: | Scott Lowther wrote:
Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
What *won't* happen is him being shipped to a concentration camp to
be held indefinately without trial and being subjected to torture.
Those are the two faces of the US system, and - guess what! - we
only approve of one of those options. Unlike you.
Tell me: are you sufficiently delusional that you actually believe that?
What? That the US holds people without trial or access to lawyers and
tortures them?
No. "Unlike you." |
|
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
|
|
Scott Lowther wrote:
| Quote: | Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
Scott Lowther wrote:
Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
What *won't* happen is him being shipped to a concentration camp to
be held indefinately without trial and being subjected to torture.
Those are the two faces of the US system, and - guess what! - we
only approve of one of those options. Unlike you.
Tell me: are you sufficiently delusional that you actually believe that?
What? That the US holds people without trial or access to lawyers and
tortures them?
No. "Unlike you."
|
Actually, yes.
It seems that anything short of beating people to death en masse on camera under
the direct written orders of Bush is just 'hazing' according to you. Plus the
fact you think it entirely justified to do abosolutely anything to anyone the US
labels 'Islamic terrorist'.
FFF
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
|
|
Scott Lowther wrote:
| Quote: | But he's not denouncing the polkice for arresting him. In his culture,
beating the crap out of your daughter for talkign to a boy on a phone
(i.e. being a dirty, dirty whore) is not exactly unheard of. Thus, Utah
is imposing Western morality and ethics on this man. How are we to win
over the peopel who think as this guy does when we arrest them for doign
what they normally do?
|
I'm not sure what is proving difficult to understand here. I oppose the
abuse of the Guantanamo Bay prisoners and I oppose the abuse of this
man's daughter.
You seem somewhere to have swallowed the simplistic notion that a broad
cultural relativism is the issue, that any cultural practice should be
tolerated. From my support of organizations such as Human Rights Watch
and Amnesty International, which criticise cultural practices that
violate human rights and dignity, it should be apparent that such
categorical relativism is not reflective of my position.
The issue in the Guantanamo Bay case is a confluence of a number of
issues, but boils down ultimately here to the responsibility of jailers
towards their charges, international and US law which forbid religious
abuse in such circumstances, and the clear intent to commit and
commission of such abuse. The Koran desecration is but one example, and
even of itself does not hinge on wildly exotic cultural practices, let
alone does Islamic respect for their holy book constitute an illegal
and despicable cultural practice. The equivalency you posit between a
cultural practice of family violence and respect for the sanctity of
the Koran is a patently false one.
Nor is it a cultural practice by any measure limited to Islam. There
have been churches in the US which have been abusive, even murderous.
All can see that such "religious" or "cultural" practices lie beyond
the protection of US law, as do such things as polygamy, ritual
cannibalism, human sacrifice, holy prostitutes, or public nudity (each
of which has a long documented history as "religious" or "cultural"
practice). However, the fact that one Bible-thumping group beats its
children does not serve as justification for the imprisonment of other
Christians and religious abuse by desecrating the Bible before them.
Such would be the logic of Eldridge Cleaver- Whites made my ancestors
slaves, therefore I can rape White women. We must have the ability to
maintain the integrity of our own ethical position, and not let it
slide through the creation of false equivalencies or justifications.
The father in the latter case acted illegally, if found to have so
acted in a court of law. As Dirk notes, due process is a key element
here as well. I have nothing but praise for those who intervened under
the law.
Eric |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
|
|
hulk_arnold_hercules@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: | Scott Lowther wrote:
But he's not denouncing the polkice for arresting him. In his culture,
beating the crap out of your daughter for talkign to a boy on a phone
(i.e. being a dirty, dirty whore) is not exactly unheard of. Thus, Utah
is imposing Western morality and ethics on this man. How are we to win
over the peopel who think as this guy does when we arrest them for doign
what they normally do?
I'm not sure what is proving difficult to understand here. I oppose the
abuse of the Guantanamo Bay prisoners and I oppose the abuse of this
man's daughter.
You seem somewhere to have swallowed the simplistic notion that a broad
cultural relativism is the issue, that any cultural practice should be
tolerated. From my support of organizations such as Human Rights Watch
and Amnesty International, which criticise cultural practices that
violate human rights and dignity, it should be apparent that such
categorical relativism is not reflective of my position.
The issue in the Guantanamo Bay case is a confluence of a number of
issues, but boils down ultimately here to the responsibility of jailers
towards their charges, international and US law which forbid religious
abuse in such circumstances, and the clear intent to commit and
commission of such abuse. The Koran desecration is but one example, and
even of itself does not hinge on wildly exotic cultural practices, let
alone does Islamic respect for their holy book constitute an illegal
and despicable cultural practice. The equivalency you posit between a
cultural practice of family violence and respect for the sanctity of
the Koran is a patently false one.
Nor is it a cultural practice by any measure limited to Islam. There
have been churches in the US which have been abusive, even murderous.
All can see that such "religious" or "cultural" practices lie beyond
the protection of US law, as do such things as polygamy, ritual
cannibalism, human sacrifice, holy prostitutes, or public nudity (each
of which has a long documented history as "religious" or "cultural"
practice). However, the fact that one Bible-thumping group beats its
children does not serve as justification for the imprisonment of other
Christians and religious abuse by desecrating the Bible before them.
Such would be the logic of Eldridge Cleaver- Whites made my ancestors
slaves, therefore I can rape White women. We must have the ability to
maintain the integrity of our own ethical position, and not let it
slide through the creation of false equivalencies or justifications.
The father in the latter case acted illegally, if found to have so
acted in a court of law. As Dirk notes, due process is a key element
here as well. I have nothing but praise for those who intervened under
the law.
|
As have I in this case of members of an Xian sect:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4608943.stm
Witchcraft case sparks abuse fear
Hundreds of central African children living in the UK may have suffered abuse or
even been killed after being accused of witchcraft, charities say.
The warning follows the conviction of three people over the torture of an
eight-year-old girl.
Four London charities, working with people from central Africa, told BBC News
this was not an isolated case.
The children may have been returned to their home countries for "deliverance
services" or other punishments.
'Breakaway churches'
In one case it was claimed an Angolan child had been sent home two years ago,
and had since been killed.
BBC correspondent Angus Crawford said community workers believed the growth of
"breakaway churches" could be one possible cause of the abuse.
A minority of these preach a powerful blend of traditional African beliefs and
evangelical Christianity.
Community workers also complain of ignorance on the part of the UK authorities,
and a lack of resources to tackle the problem.
On Friday three adults were found guilty at the Old Bailey over the torture of
an eight-year-old girl in Hackney, east London, after she was accused of witchcraft.
The orphan was beaten, cut and had chilli peppers rubbed in her eyes to "beat
the devil out of her".
The child's aunt, who cannot be named for legal reasons, was found guilty of
child cruelty, while Sita Kisanga and her brother Sebastian Pinto were convicted
of aiding and abetting.
The trio, all from London, were found not guilty of conspiracy to murder. They
were remanded in custody and the women were warned they faced lengthy jail
sentences.
Speaking exclusively to the BBC, Kisanga said the girl was possessed by an evil
spirit, known as kindoki.
"In our community, kindoki happens. It is killing people. It is doing bad
things," she said.
The orphan was brought to Britain from Angola in 2002 by her 38-year-old aunt
after the girl's parents died.
The cruelty started at the beginning of 2003 when a boy told his mother that the
girl had been practising witchcraft.
'Today you die'
The child was cut with a knife and beaten with a belt and shoe.
During police interviews, the girl said Kisanga had cornered her in the kitchen
and told her "today you die".
Spirit possession is also a common feature of African traditional
religion and
there is a belief that they can fly or mutate into other creatures
Dr Richard Hoskins
The court also heard the girl, now 10, was put into a laundry bag and believed
she would be "thrown away" into a river.
Detective Superintendent Chris Bourlet, head of the Metropolitan Child Abuse
Command, said such cases were difficult to police: "These are very small
churches. Sometimes they meet in very small halls, sometimes in people's houses.
"It's not really the role of the police to go and watch churches."
Mary Marsh, director of the NSPCC, called the case "horrific", saying it had
"exposed beliefs held by some in the African community that can lead to child
abuse".
Penny Thompson, Hackney Council's Chief Executive, said the case was "very serious".
The City and Hackney Safeguarding Board, which monitors child protection
agencies, would be making an independent inquiry.
A new unit called Project Violet had been set up to protect children from abuse
as the result of religious or cultural beliefs, police said.
FFF
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Post Colonial Boy
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
|
|
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 13:29:20 GMT, Scott Lowther
<scottlowther@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOK.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Post Colonial Boy wrote:
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 01:55:10 GMT, Scott Lowther
scottlowther@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOK.com> wrote:
Post Colonial Boy wrote:
are you sure that you're Asatru?
I, for one, am not.
Ah, Nik the Asa-Pope returns!!!!
I note that you've snipped your offending text. I will remedy that:
Scott Lowther> "Touching a friggen' book is a wholly unreasonable
Scott Lowther> definition of "abuse." Yet it's one that causes Scott
Lowther> Islamists to go apeshit."
You're the one who took the name of the most powerful of the Aesir
Goddesses in vain...
ERRRR. Wrong, Asa-Pope Nik the First. LAst I checked, there's no Aesir
goddess name of "Friggen."
|
Moron.
Nik |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Scott Lowther
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
|
|
Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
| Quote: |
It seems that anything short of beating people to death en masse on
camera under the direct written orders of Bush is just 'hazing'
according to you.
|
Only if you don;t bother to pay attention. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Scott Lowther
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:53 pm Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
|
|
hulk_arnold_hercules@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: |
The father in the latter case acted illegally,
|
Not according to Islamic law. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Scott Lowther
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:13 am Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
|
|
Post Colonial Boy wrote:
| Quote: | Moron.
Nik
Thus spake the Asa-Pope. I'll be sure to tell Frigga all about you when |
I see her. We'll have a good laugh. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
PSn
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:59 am Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
|
|
The sarcastic tone of your postings on this topic makes it clear that you
think that indefinate detention, often based on ones proximity to others,
one's name being similar to another's, or based solely on the word of an
Afghani warlord who was to recieve a reward for every "terrorist" or
"taliban soldier" he turns in, is totally acceptable to you.
"Scott Lowther" <scottlowther@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOK.com> wrote in message
news:9RHoe.212$5m4.92@news02.roc.ny...
| Quote: | Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
It seems that anything short of beating people to death en masse on
camera under the direct written orders of Bush is just 'hazing'
according to you.
Only if you don;t bother to pay attention. |
|
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Scott Lowther
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
|
|
PSn wrote:
| Quote: | The sarcastic tone of your postings on this topic makes it clear that you
think that indefinate detention, often based on ones proximity to others,
one's name being similar to another's, or based solely on the word of an
Afghani warlord who was to recieve a reward for every "terrorist" or
"taliban soldier" he turns in, is totally acceptable to you.
|
As with Rudolph Hess, who spent years languishing in a British prison,
these people should be tried after wars end. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
PSn
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Even *more* religious abuse!!! |
|
|
That would be fine if we were at war with a specific nation and had very
specific goals (like "Capture Berlin" and "Unconditional Surrender by the
Enemy"). But we're not at war with a specific nation. We're at war with a
specific tactic/ideology; a War on Terrorism-- which seems to be going just
as successfully as the War on Drugs (More drug use than ever before, even as
we give out harsher and harsher sentences to cancer patients and non-violent
offenders) or our War on Poverty (more children go hungry than ever and more
people are on the dole).
Since there are no concrete objectives, and since the War on Terrorism can
not truly be won (Terrorism is as old as terror itself), we have to alter
our conduct to the new reality. So, we'll have to at least give these
people the benefit of a Grand Jury indictment (which doesn't take all that
long, let's be real)-- lay out the evidence, and if there is none (or if the
evidence is excessively flimsy, like the word of someone untrustworthy), you
have to let him go.
The question is if you believe in Justice. Indefinate detention on flimsy
intellegence or no evidence is not just.
For note, our soldiers are now being killed by the warlords who agreed to
help us-- these are the same warlords whose word we rely on for many of
these detentions. They lied to us on one count; why do you trust them for
another?
"Scott Lowther" <scottlowther@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOK.com> wrote in message
news:nqNoe.278$2e7.158@news01.roc.ny...
| Quote: | PSn wrote:
The sarcastic tone of your postings on this topic makes it clear that you
think that indefinate detention, often based on ones proximity to others,
one's name being similar to another's, or based solely on the word of an
Afghani warlord who was to recieve a reward for every "terrorist" or
"taliban soldier" he turns in, is totally acceptable to you.
As with Rudolph Hess, who spent years languishing in a British prison,
these people should be tried after wars end.
|
|
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
|
