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Kent Johnson
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 Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: Feelings, thoughts and faith |
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Most of us don't know we do it, but we all do, to some extent or other. We
have been taught in schools to think logically, but throughout the history
of our species it has only been recently, and a very few of us, who have
actually do think logically. We are a feelings-oriented species, just as
every other species on this planet is feelings oriented.
Recently, historically speaking, we have been admonished and encouraged to
use reason and not our baser passions in controlling our behavior, but that
has not always been the case, and as a species we are not very good at it.
I see people frequently use words that do not communicate a logical thought,
and that is as it should be. Words are used to communicate, and all
communication is not logical, but that does not mean the communication is
not true, real, useful or adequate.
So, how do we logically examine points that are not logical? We must do so
with a different value than the glorified logic of our scholastic heritage.
Take a step back and fuzzify the logic of the words, and look at the whole
statement, including the feelings and, well, it is possible to see the point
made, but not the logic of the point. It is a clear statement, requiring no
clarification, but not precisely reasonable.
What things can we communicate that are not logical? Well, feelings. Any
therapist will tell you the value of communicating your feelings. And, I
submit here and now, faith, in the finest tradition, the highest and deepest
of thoughts and inspiration.
Words are tools to communicate. Words are not exclusively used to present
logic and reason. They can also present feelings, and that is probably the
most common use for words.
Baha'u'llah presents a use of words that I have called "the feeling that is
not a feeling, and the place that is not a place". I use the example from
the Tablet of Ahmad: "Lo, the Nightingale of Paradise singeth upon the twigs
of the Tree of Eternity, with holy and sweet melodies, proclaiming ...
calling ... informing .... guiding the lovers to the seat of sanctity and to
this resplendent Beauty. Verily this is that Most Great Beauty
(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 208)
"This resplendent Beauty" is that. It is "this" that Baha'u'llah is
communicating to us, calling us, informing us, proclaiming to us and guiding
us. It is a difficult "feeling" to communicate or "place" to bring us, but
it is to this He is calling, proclaiming, informing and guiding us.
Is it logical? Is it real? Does it exist? Is it a feeling? Maybe, depending
on how we individually understand those words. Ideologically and otherwise
it might best be called "faith".
Thanks for reading.
--Kent |
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: Re: Feelings, thoughts and faith |
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On Mar 12, 2008, at 7:07 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | Is it logical? Is it real? Does it exist? Is it a feeling? Maybe,
depending
on how we individually understand those words. Ideologically and
otherwise
it might best be called "faith".
|
However faith can lead a person to believe in an untruth as well as a
truth.
My take on logically investigating etc. is that we need to consider our
overall purpose of life and utilize all our powers for that purpose.
Unity comes from having one principle around and by which all things
revolve and are organized. (not sure I wrote this correctly but it is
a comment the late Dan Jordan wrote in one of his papers)
In any case to me I see that we can have a problem by isolating
feelings, reasoning, faith, etc. because they are all powers given us
to achieve all the objectives and goals in line with our overall
purpose of life.
Our physical senses are not reliable in terms of presenting reality to
us. Our intellect also is not totally reliable because it depends on
the senses. And our power of faith can enable us to believe in an
untruth as well as a truth.
Thus to me all these knowing powers must be directed towards the
achievement of love and unity for them to be realistically utilized.
I seem to recall reading in our Writings, and the Bible and I believe
in the Qur'an too of the concept that we should accept on faith the
Manifestation and His Revelation but we are to use our powers of reason
etc. to test it all by actual action, not just blind belief. "Deeds
not words", etc.
regards,
doug |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Feelings, thoughts and faith |
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Hi Doug, I will answer you since I don't want you to think no one is
reading.
I am encouraged, first of all, by the fact that you did not justify your
thoughts and logic by saying they are in the Writings of the Baha'i Faith.
It is a matter of interpretation whether or not they are, and we will get
bogged down in that interpretation if you make that claim again. As it is,
we can talk about the reasonableness of your thoughts on merit alone.
| Quote: | However faith can lead a person to believe in an untruth as well as a
truth.
|
I was trying to differentiate between a belief and faith. I believe faith
is experienced and a belief is not, and that is the point I was trying to
make. When we turn to "this resplendent Beauty" we can experience such
beauty, such resplendence. We are not relying on a belief, but rather
turning to the Beauty, letting it rule our behavior, receiving guidance,
inspiration, and encouragement from the Most Great Beauty.
I think that goes beyond a simple "belief". However we can be fooled, hear
voices, entertain psychotic fantasies and vain imaginings. We require our
reason to tell what is good and what is not.
| Quote: | Unity comes from having one principle around and by which all things
revolve and are organized.
|
No need to invoke Dan Jordan for a definition of unity. It comes from the
Latin word for "one" and is generally recognized as a single whole. Like
the Unified Field Theory, and Gaia hypthesis.
| Quote: | we can have a problem by isolating feelings, reasoning, faith, etc.
because they are all powers given us to achieve all the objectives and
goals in line with our overall purpose of life.
|
Not sure I would agree with the wording, that we are given power to achieve
all.... We have these tools, I would say, that can help us achieve.... I
believe we need the desire to do so. Without the motivation to achieve
anything we will not do it.
| Quote: | Thus to me all these knowing powers must be directed towards the
achievement of love and unity for them to be realistically utilized.
|
Lost me there. Not that I don't think we should direct our energies or
"powers" toward unity and love, just that it doesn't follow. I think you
are missing motivation.
Hope you can accept my thoughts in the spirit of helpfulness.
--Kent
"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:TdmdncykvKeDpUTanZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
On Mar 12, 2008, at 7:07 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:
Is it logical? Is it real? Does it exist? Is it a feeling? Maybe,
depending
on how we individually understand those words. Ideologically and
otherwise
it might best be called "faith".
However faith can lead a person to believe in an untruth as well as a
truth.
My take on logically investigating etc. is that we need to consider our
overall purpose of life and utilize all our powers for that purpose.
Unity comes from having one principle around and by which all things
revolve and are organized. (not sure I wrote this correctly but it is a
comment the late Dan Jordan wrote in one of his papers)
In any case to me I see that we can have a problem by isolating feelings,
reasoning, faith, etc. because they are all powers given us to achieve all
the objectives and goals in line with our overall purpose of life.
Our physical senses are not reliable in terms of presenting reality to us.
Our intellect also is not totally reliable because it depends on the
senses. And our power of faith can enable us to believe in an untruth as
well as a truth.
Thus to me all these knowing powers must be directed towards the
achievement of love and unity for them to be realistically utilized.
I seem to recall reading in our Writings, and the Bible and I believe in
the Qur'an too of the concept that we should accept on faith the
Manifestation and His Revelation but we are to use our powers of reason
etc. to test it all by actual action, not just blind belief. "Deeds not
words", etc.
regards,
doug
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| Back to top |
Douglas McAdam
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Feelings, thoughts and faith |
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|
On Mar 14, 2008, at 7:14 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Doug, I will answer you since I don't want you to think no one is
reading.
I am encouraged, first of all, by the fact that you did not justify
your
thoughts and logic by saying they are in the Writings of the Baha'i
Faith.
It is a matter of interpretation whether or not they are, and we will
get
bogged down in that interpretation if you make that claim again. As
it is,
we can talk about the reasonableness of your thoughts on merit alone.
|
Kent:
Just as a matter of reference the thoughts I share DO come from study
of the Baha'i Writings and there is nothing at all wrong with that in
my estimation. What else should they be based on?
| Quote: | However faith can lead a person to believe in an untruth as well as a
truth.
I was trying to differentiate between a belief and faith. I believe
faith
is experienced and a belief is not, and that is the point I was trying
to
make. When we turn to "this resplendent Beauty" we can experience
such
beauty, such resplendence. We are not relying on a belief, but rather
turning to the Beauty, letting it rule our behavior, receiving
guidance,
inspiration, and encouragement from the Most Great Beauty.
|
Indeed, true faith, is "conscious knowledge and righteous deeds"
"By faith is meant, first, conscious knowledge, and second, the
practice of good deeds."
Baha'i World Faith-`Abdu'l-Bahá p. 383) Tablets of AB, p.549-550
What do you mean by "turn to this resplendent Beauty"?
| Quote: |
I think that goes beyond a simple "belief". However we can be fooled,
hear
voices, entertain psychotic fantasies and vain imaginings. We require
our
reason to tell what is good and what is not.
|
Like I said even our intellect can fool us since it depends on the
senses which are limited and often unrealistic.
| Quote: |
Unity comes from having one principle around and by which all things
revolve and are organized.
No need to invoke Dan Jordan for a definition of unity. It comes from
the
Latin word for "one" and is generally recognized as a single whole.
Like
the Unified Field Theory, and Gaia hypthesis.
|
Why not invoke Dan Jordan, after all he was one of our best scholars,
if not the best. I like to give credit when I can.
| Quote: |
we can have a problem by isolating feelings, reasoning, faith, etc.
because they are all powers given us to achieve all the objectives
and
goals in line with our overall purpose of life.
Not sure I would agree with the wording, that we are given power to
achieve
all.... We have these tools, I would say, that can help us
achieve.... I
believe we need the desire to do so. Without the motivation to
achieve
anything we will not do it.
|
To me it is perfectly logical that if we are given the purpose to know
and worship God then He also gave us the powers to achieve this
purpose.
*** Gleanings, page: 66 ***
"Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein,
He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign
Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to
know Him and to love Him—a capacity that must needs be regarded as the
generating impulse and the primary purpose underlying the whole of
creation.... Upon the inmost reality of each and every created thing He
hath shed the light of one of His names, and made it a recipient of the
glory of one of His attributes. Upon the reality of man, however, He
hath focused the radiance of all of His names and attributes, and made
it a mirror of His own Self."
| Quote: |
Thus to me all these knowing powers must be directed towards the
achievement of love and unity for them to be realistically utilized.
Lost me there. Not that I don't think we should direct our energies
or
"powers" toward unity and love, just that it doesn't follow. I think
you
are missing motivation.
|
Knowledge, Volition and Action, the Writings say are needed in order to
achieve an objective.
I take it for granted we have the volition, the motivation but in order
to realistically utilize our powers we must direct them to the
achievement of the purpose intended. Again I will refer to a quote
from the well known scholar Dan Jordan from the Comprehensive Deepening
Program --
"There is yet another aspect of meaning which relates purpose to
reality. If one is out of touch with the purpose of something, he is
out of touch with the reality of that thing."
| Quote: |
Hope you can accept my thoughts in the spirit of helpfulness.
|
Likewise,
doug
| Quote: |
--Kent
"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:TdmdncykvKeDpUTanZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@giganews.com...
On Mar 12, 2008, at 7:07 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:
Is it logical? Is it real? Does it exist? Is it a feeling? Maybe,
depending
on how we individually understand those words. Ideologically and
otherwise
it might best be called "faith".
However faith can lead a person to believe in an untruth as well as a
truth.
My take on logically investigating etc. is that we need to consider
our
overall purpose of life and utilize all our powers for that purpose.
Unity comes from having one principle around and by which all things
revolve and are organized. (not sure I wrote this correctly but it
is a
comment the late Dan Jordan wrote in one of his papers)
In any case to me I see that we can have a problem by isolating
feelings,
reasoning, faith, etc. because they are all powers given us to
achieve all
the objectives and goals in line with our overall purpose of life.
Our physical senses are not reliable in terms of presenting reality
to us.
Our intellect also is not totally reliable because it depends on the
senses. And our power of faith can enable us to believe in an
untruth as
well as a truth.
Thus to me all these knowing powers must be directed towards the
achievement of love and unity for them to be realistically utilized.
I seem to recall reading in our Writings, and the Bible and I believe
in
the Qur'an too of the concept that we should accept on faith the
Manifestation and His Revelation but we are to use our powers of
reason
etc. to test it all by actual action, not just blind belief. "Deeds
not
words", etc.
regards,
doug
|
|
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: Feelings, thoughts and faith |
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|
Hi Doug,
"... the thoughts I share DO come from study of the Baha'i Writings..."
As do many of my thoughts. There is a difference between thoughts that you
got while studying the Writings and the Writings themselves.
"there is nothing at all wrong with that in my estimation."
Nor in my estimation. But if you say the Writings say something we first
have to decide if it is true that the Writings do say it. If you just
present the idea we can examine the idea without having to agree as to
whether or not it is the same idea expressed in the Writings.
"What else should they be based on?"
All truth is based on logic, reason and faith.
Thanks for reading, but I don't feel like answering the same questions again
right now. My original message is accessible.
--Kent
"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:F8idnV9taOr-NEfanZ2dnUVZ_o6knZ2d@giganews.com...
On Mar 14, 2008, at 7:14 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Doug, I will answer you since I don't want you to think no one is
reading.
I am encouraged, first of all, by the fact that you did not justify your
thoughts and logic by saying they are in the Writings of the Baha'i Faith.
It is a matter of interpretation whether or not they are, and we will
get
bogged down in that interpretation if you make that claim again. As
it is,
we can talk about the reasonableness of your thoughts on merit alone.
|
Kent:
Just as a matter of reference the thoughts I share DO come from study
of the Baha'i Writings and there is nothing at all wrong with that in
my estimation. What else should they be based on?
| Quote: | However faith can lead a person to believe in an untruth as well as a
truth.
I was trying to differentiate between a belief and faith. I believe
faith
is experienced and a belief is not, and that is the point I was trying
to
make. When we turn to "this resplendent Beauty" we can experience
such
beauty, such resplendence. We are not relying on a belief, but rather
turning to the Beauty, letting it rule our behavior, receiving guidance,
inspiration, and encouragement from the Most Great Beauty.
|
Indeed, true faith, is "conscious knowledge and righteous deeds"
"By faith is meant, first, conscious knowledge, and second, the
practice of good deeds."
Baha'i World Faith-`Abdu'l-Bahá p. 383) Tablets of AB, p.549-550
What do you mean by "turn to this resplendent Beauty"?
| Quote: |
I think that goes beyond a simple "belief". However we can be fooled,
hear
voices, entertain psychotic fantasies and vain imaginings. We require
our
reason to tell what is good and what is not.
|
Like I said even our intellect can fool us since it depends on the
senses which are limited and often unrealistic.
| Quote: |
Unity comes from having one principle around and by which all things
revolve and are organized.
No need to invoke Dan Jordan for a definition of unity. It comes from
the
Latin word for "one" and is generally recognized as a single whole.
Like
the Unified Field Theory, and Gaia hypthesis.
|
Why not invoke Dan Jordan, after all he was one of our best scholars,
if not the best. I like to give credit when I can.
| Quote: |
we can have a problem by isolating feelings, reasoning, faith, etc.
because they are all powers given us to achieve all the objectives
and
goals in line with our overall purpose of life.
Not sure I would agree with the wording, that we are given power to
achieve
all.... We have these tools, I would say, that can help us achieve.... I
believe we need the desire to do so. Without the motivation to
achieve
anything we will not do it.
|
To me it is perfectly logical that if we are given the purpose to know
and worship God then He also gave us the powers to achieve this
purpose.
*** Gleanings, page: 66 ***
"Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein,
He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign
Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to
know Him and to love Him—a capacity that must needs be regarded as the
generating impulse and the primary purpose underlying the whole of
creation.... Upon the inmost reality of each and every created thing He
hath shed the light of one of His names, and made it a recipient of the
glory of one of His attributes. Upon the reality of man, however, He
hath focused the radiance of all of His names and attributes, and made
it a mirror of His own Self."
| Quote: |
Thus to me all these knowing powers must be directed towards the
achievement of love and unity for them to be realistically utilized.
Lost me there. Not that I don't think we should direct our energies
or
"powers" toward unity and love, just that it doesn't follow. I think
you
are missing motivation.
|
Knowledge, Volition and Action, the Writings say are needed in order to
achieve an objective.
I take it for granted we have the volition, the motivation but in order
to realistically utilize our powers we must direct them to the
achievement of the purpose intended. Again I will refer to a quote
from the well known scholar Dan Jordan from the Comprehensive Deepening
Program --
"There is yet another aspect of meaning which relates purpose to
reality. If one is out of touch with the purpose of something, he is
out of touch with the reality of that thing."
| Quote: |
Hope you can accept my thoughts in the spirit of helpfulness.
|
Likewise,
doug
| Quote: |
--Kent
"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:TdmdncykvKeDpUTanZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@giganews.com...
On Mar 12, 2008, at 7:07 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:
Is it logical? Is it real? Does it exist? Is it a feeling? Maybe,
depending
on how we individually understand those words. Ideologically and
otherwise
it might best be called "faith".
However faith can lead a person to believe in an untruth as well as a
truth.
My take on logically investigating etc. is that we need to consider
our
overall purpose of life and utilize all our powers for that purpose.
Unity comes from having one principle around and by which all things
revolve and are organized. (not sure I wrote this correctly but it
is a
comment the late Dan Jordan wrote in one of his papers)
In any case to me I see that we can have a problem by isolating feelings,
reasoning, faith, etc. because they are all powers given us to achieve
all
the objectives and goals in line with our overall purpose of life.
Our physical senses are not reliable in terms of presenting reality
to us.
Our intellect also is not totally reliable because it depends on the
senses. And our power of faith can enable us to believe in an untruth as
well as a truth.
Thus to me all these knowing powers must be directed towards the
achievement of love and unity for them to be realistically utilized.
I seem to recall reading in our Writings, and the Bible and I believe
in
the Qur'an too of the concept that we should accept on faith the
Manifestation and His Revelation but we are to use our powers of reason
etc. to test it all by actual action, not just blind belief. "Deeds
not
words", etc.
regards,
doug
|
|
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Susan Maneck
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: Feelings, thoughts and faith |
|
|
| Quote: | "What else should they be based on?"
All truth is based on logic, reason and faith.
|
Dear Kent,
You're leaving out revelation.
warmest, Susan |
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