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arah
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 Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:04 am Post subject: Integrity of the Bible |
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Muhaimin and Integrity of the Bible
Much has been written and said about the following Quranic passage:
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture
that came before it, and guarding it in safety (muhaimin alayhi): so
judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their
vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each
among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so
willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to
test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all
virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you
the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; S. 5:48 Y. Ali
What does it mean that the Quran confirms the previous Scripture and
guards it in safety? Does it mean that the Quran confirms only those
parts of the Bible which agree with the Islamic scripture? Or does it
mean that the Quran testifies to the authenticity and integrity of the
previous Revelation and prevents them from ever being corrupted? If
the former, then the modern Muslim assertion that the Bible has been
corrupted would be correct as far as the Quran’s view of the
scriptures are concerned.
The precise meaning of the text centers on the word muhaimin, which A.
Yusuf Ali translated as "guarding it in safety."
Dr Jamal Badawi sums it all up nicely:
"What is the Muslim basis or criterion for accepting or not
accepting portions or passages from the Bible? The Qur’an itself
provides such criterion:
And unto you have We revealed the Scripture with the truth,
confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watch over it… (the
Qur’an 5:48)
This emphasizes two main aspects of the Qur’an:
a) The Qur’an confirms those teachings or passages of previous
scriptures which remained intact.
b) The Qur’an is the last, complete, authoritative and authentic
revelation. It is the final arbiter and the only criterion to correct
any inaccuracy or misinterpretation which might have occurred in the
transmission of scriptures. It helps in discovering human additions to
or interpolations of previous revelations, even as it reveals possible
deletions which might have taken place through the centuries prior to
its revelation (the Qur’an). Indeed one of the names of the Qur’an is
al-Furqan (the criterion which distinguishes between right and wrong,
truth and falsehood).
"And Jesus answered him, ‘The first of all commandments is
hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.’" (Mark 12:29)
A Muslim who reads this passage in the Qur’an can find no
objection to its essence. After all the Qur’an confirms:
Say He is Allaah, the One and Only (God). (The Qur’an 112:1)
The People of the Book do not have their Tawraat and Injeel intact in
the pristine condition and bible is only a portion of the Tawraat and
Injil.
Commentary of Ibn Kathir
This is the link to the original Arabic text of Ibn Kathir’s
commentary on Surah 5:48 from Al-Azhar’s web site:
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KATHEER&nType=1&nSora=5&nAya=48
When Allah the Exalted mentioned the Torah, which he brought down upon
Moses whom He spoke with, He complimented it supported and decreed
that it be followed since it was legitimate to follow. Likewise, He
mentioned the Gospel where He complimented it and ordered its people
to uphold it and follow what is in it, as has been shown. The glorious
Quran, which (Allah) sent down on His servant and precious messenger,
was mentioned by saying, (Sura 5:4 "To thee We sent the Scripture in
truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it, and guarding it
in safety. We descended upon you the Book in truth," meaning in
honesty there is no doubt that it (the Quran) came from Allah.
"Confirming what is between your hands from the Book" refers to the
previous scriptures that mentioned and complimented the Quran and
stated it would be sent down by Allah on his servant and messenger
Muhammad – pbuh. The Quran’s descent (upon Muhammad) happened as it
was foretold in the previous scriptures, thus increasing the
trustworthiness of these scriptures in the eyes of their followers,
who had insight and were lead to Allah’s commands because they
followed His law and believed His prophets. As Allah says (Sura
17:107) "Those who were given knowledge beforehand, when it is recited
to them fall down on their faces in humble prostration" means if Allah
has promised us by the mouth of His previous messengers of the coming
of Muhammad – pbuh – then it will surely happen.
As for His saying "(muhaimin)" it was narrated by Sufian Al-Thowry and
others, narrated by Abu Ishaq, narrated by Al-Tamimi, narrated by Ibn
Abbas that this means A PROTECTOR OF IT. A similar meaning was also
narrated by Ikrimah, Sa’id Ibn Jubair, Mujahid, Muhammad Ibn Ka’b,
Atia, Al-Hassan, Qatada, Ata’a Al-Kharasani, Al-Suddi and Ibn Zaid.
Ibn Jarir said, "The Quran is a protector over the books that preceded
it. What is corroborated (from the books) by the Quran is truth and
what deviates from the Quran is false." Narrated by Al-Walibi who
narrated that Ibn Abbas said, "Muhaimin means WITNESS." Mujahid,
Qatada and Al-Suddi also said likewise.
Ibn Abbas said that "muhaimin" means to be a judge over the books that
preceded it. All these sayings are similar in meaning. The word
"muhaimin" includes these meanings for the (Quran) is a protector, a
witness and judge over every book that preceded it. Allah has caused
this great book (Quran), which He brought down, to be the last, the
seal, the most comprehensive, the greatest and the most complete of
all the books (scriptures). In the Quran was gathered all that was
good in the previous scriptures and (Allah) increased it in
perfection, which was not found in other books. That is why Allah made
the Quran a witness, a protector and a judge over all other books and
He took the responsibility Himself of protecting it, for He says (Sura
15:9) "We have sent down the differentiator and we are a protector of
it."
As for what was narrated by Ibn Abu Hatim, narrated by Ikrimah,
narrated by Sa’id Ibn Jubair, narrated by Ata’a Al-Kharasani, narrated
by Ibn Abu Nujaih and narrated by Mujahid who said that "muhaimin"
refers to Muhammad – pbuh – being A PROTECTOR of the Quran, this may
be true AS A MEANING but the commentary and Arabic sentence structure
supports the earlier stated meaning.
Abu Jafar Ibn Jarir stated after he was told of Mujahid’s
interpretation (that muhaimin refers to Muhammad) that this
interpretation is far from the meaning of the verse as understood in
the Arabic language and as a matter of fact, that interpretation is
completely wrong. That is because the word "muhaimin" is associated
with the word "confirming" (musadikan) therefore it cannot be but an
adjective to the verb "confirming" (musadikan) and not the other way
around. Had the issue been as Mujahid explained it, then Allah would
have said, "We have brought down to you the book in truth, confirming
what is between your hands from the scriptures and being a protector
over it."
Commentary of Jalalayn
This is the link to the original Arabic text of Jalalayn’s commentary
on Sura 5:48 from Al-Azhar’s web site:
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=GALALEEN&nType=1&nSora=5&nAya=48
The verse "We descended upon you" refers to Muhammad.
"The Book" refers to the Quran.
"In Truth" is associated with the phrase "We descended upon you."
"Confirming that which is between your hands" refers to the previous
scriptures.
"From the Book and muhaimin" means it is A WITNESS.
"To it" here the Book (in singular form) refers to all the previous
books that came before the Quran.
"So judge between them" means judge for the People of the Book if they
appeal to you.
"With what Allah has revealed" means what Allah has reveled to you
Muhammad in the Quran.
"And do not follow their desires" means judge fairly.
"From what has come to you from the Truth and to each of you" here all
nations are being addressed.
"Sharan" means legislation.
"and Minhaj" means a clear path for religion that you can follow.
"If Allah willed it He would have made you all one nation" means that
Allah could have made you all follow one legislation.
"But" implies that that He divided you into groups.
"To test you" means to examine you.
"With what has come to you" refers to the different legislations that
have been given to test who is obedient and who is defiant among you.
"Strive speedily in good works" means hurry in performing them.
"To Allah is all your return" refers to the day of resurrection.
"He will inform you about what you differed" refers to religious
differences and Allah will then reward each according to his deeds.
Commentary of Qurtubi
This is the link to the original Arabic text of Qurtubi’s commentary
on Sura 5:48 from Al-Azhar’s web site:
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KORTOBY&nType=1&nSora=5&nAya=48
Muhaimin means raised above and elevated and this shows the opinion of
those who say (muhaimin) means to be preferred or to increase in
reward. This was alluded to in (Surat) "Al-Fatiha" which is the
opinion of Ibn Hassar as written in his book "Explanation of the
Sunnah" and we have mentioned what he stated in our book regarding the
explanation of the divine names, thanks be to Allah.
Qatada stated that "muhaimin" means THE WITNESS. It was also said that
it means "THE KEEPER". Al-Hassan said it means "THE CORROBORATOR";
using this meaning the poet said, "The book CORROBORATES our prophet
and the truth is known by those with knowledge."
Ibn Abbas said that "muhaimin" means A PROTECTOR OF IT. Ibn Sa’id
Jubair stated that the Quran is A PROTECTOR to what came before it.
Ibn Abbas and Al-Hassan also stated that "muhaimin" means "THE
FAITHFUL." Al-Mabrad narrated that the words was originally pronounced
"Mu-aymen" where the "A (hamza)" letter was changed into an "H" as in
the saying ‘the water was poured’. Al-Zujaj and Abu Ali also said
likewise by conjugating the verb to give the meaning "TO BE FAITHFUL
TO."
Al-Jawhari narrated that it means to give protection to him who is
scared, for the original form of that word (muhaimin) is actually
"A’amana" so there are two "A" (hamza) letters in the word but the
second "A" was changed into the letter "E" (ya’) out of necessity so
the word became "mu’aymen". Later the first "A" (hamza) was changed
into an "H" to become "muhaimin" as in the saying ‘the water was
poured’ and from it is derived the meaning "TO PROTECT." Abu Ubaid
narrated from Mujahid and Ibn Mahees that it is read "mu’haiman" by
changing the diacritical mark above the second "M" to give the meaning
that Muhammad – pbuh – was given the responsibility of the Quran.
Commentary of Tabari
This is the link to the original Arabic text of Tabari’s commentary on
Sura 5:48 from Al-Azhar’s web site:
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=TABARY&nType=1&nSora=5&nAya=48
Regarding "muhaimin" Allah says that He brought down the book (Quran)
to you O Muhammad, believing in the books that came before it AND A
WITNESS TO THEM (the previous scriptures) THAT THEY ARE TRUTH FROM
ALLAH, FAITHFUL TO THEM AND A PROTECTOR TO THEM. The root of "Haymana"
means TO PROTECT and WATCH OVER, that is why it is said when a man
watches over something and protects it he has "haymana" over it. The
present form of the verb is "yu-haymen" and the noun is "haymana".
Based on what we have mentioned, the people of interpretation HAVE
DIFFERED in their explanation of this word; for some said that it
means to be A WITNESS.
Of those that had the above mentioned opinion it was narrated by Al-
Mathny, narrated by Abdullah Ibn Salih, narrated by Mu’awiya Ibn
Salih, narrated by Ali Ibn Abu Talha, narrated by Ibn Abbas who stated
that "muhaimin" means TO WITNESS.
Narrated by Muhammad Ibn Al-Hussain, narrated by Ahmad Ibn Mufadal,
narrated by Asbat, narrated by Al-Suddi who stated that "Muhaimin"
over it means A WITNESS over it.
Narrated by Bashir Ibn Mu’ath, narrated by Yazid, narrated Sa’id,
narrated by Qatada who related that in the verse (Sura 5:4 "We
brought down upon you the Book (Quran) in truth, confirming what is
between your hands from the book" the second occurrence of the book
refer to the scriptures that came before the Quran and "muhaimin"
means A PROTECTOR AND WITNESS to the scriptures that came before.
Narrated by Al-Kasim, narrated by Al-Hussain, narrated by Hajaj,
narrated Ibn Juraij, narrated by Mujahid who related that "muhamin"
over it means the Quran IS A PROTECTOR, A WITNESS AND A CONFIRMER (of
the previous scripture). Ibn Juraij and others said that the Quran is
a guardian over the previous books so that if the People of the Books
mention an issue that was also mentioned in the Quran it is to be
believed; otherwise it will not be believed.
Narrated by Muhammad Ibn Bashar, narrated by Abdul Rahman, narrated by
Hunad Ibn Al-Siri, narrated by Waqi’a, narrated by Sufyan, narrated by
Abu Ishaq, narrated by Al-Tamimi, narrated by Ibn Abbas who stated
that "muhaimin" over it means A GUARDIAN over it.
Narrated by Muhammad Ibn Ubaid Al-Muharibi, narrated by Abu Al-Ahwas,
narrated by Abu Ishaq, narrated by Al-Tamimi, narrated by Ibn Abbas
who said that "muhaimin" over it means A GUARDIAN over it.
Narrated by Ibn Waqi’a who said that is was narrated by his father,
narrated by Sufyan and Israel, narrated by Abu Ishaq, narrated by Al-
Tamimi, narrated by Ibn Abbas who stated the same opinion stated above
(that "muhaimin" over it means A GUARDIAN over it.)
Also it was narrated by Hunad, narrated by Waqi’a, narrated by Sufyan
and Israel, narrated by Abu Ishaq, narrated by Ibn Abbas who stated
the same opinion stated above.
Also narrated by Abu Quraib, narrated by Attia, narrated by Israel,
narrated by Abu Ishaq, narrated by Al-Tamimi, narrated by Ibn Abbas
who stated the same opinion stated above.
Also narrated by Ibn Humaid, narrated by Hakam, narrated by Anbasa,
narrated by Abu Ishaq, narrated by Al-Tamimi, narrated by Ibn Abbas
who stated the same opinion stated above.
Also narrated by Ibn Humaid, narrated by Hakam, narrated by Amru,
narrated by Mutraf, narrated by Abu Ishaq, narrated by a man from
Tamim, narrated by Ibn Abbas who stated the same opinion stated above.
It was narrated by Al-Mathny, narrated by Abdullah Ibn Salih, narrated
by Mu’awia Ibn Salih, narrated by Ali Ibn Abu Talha, narrated by Ibn
Abbas who stated that "muhaimin" means THE FAITHFUL. The Quran is A
GUARDIAN over the scriptures that came before it.
It was narrated by Muhammad Ibn Sa’ad, narrated by his father,
narrated by his uncle, narrated by his father, narrated by Ibn Abbas
who stated that (5:4 "We brought down upon you the Book (Quran) in
truth, confirming what is between your hands from the book" refers to
the Quran WHICH IS A WITNESS TO THE TORAH AND THE GOSPEL AND CONFIRMS
BOTH OF THEM. "Muhaimin" over it means A GUARDIAN over it, judging
over the books that came before it.
Narrated by Ibn Waqi’a, narrated by his Hamid Ibn Abdul Rahman,
narrated by Qais, narrated by Abu Ishaq, narrated by Al-Tamimi,
narrated by Ibn Abbas who stated that "muhaimin" over it means A
GUARDIAN over it.
Narrated by Ibn Waqi’a, narrated by his Yahya Ibn Adam, narrated by
Zuhair, narrated by Abu Ishaq, narrated by a man form Tamim, narrated
by Ibn Abbas who stated that "muhaimin" over it means A GUARDIAN over
it.
It was also narrated by Al-Mathny, narrated by Yahya Al-Hamani,
narrated by Shariq, narrated by Abu Ishaq, narrated by Al-Tamimi,
narrated by Ibn Abbas who stated the same opinion stated above (that
"muhaimin" over it means A GUARDIAN over it.)
Narrated by Hinad, narrated by Waqi’a, narrated by his father,
narrated by Ibn Ishaq and Israel, narrated by Ali Ibn Bathima,
narrated by Sa’id Ibn Jubair who stated that "muhaimin" over it means
A GUARDIAN over the books that preceded it.
It was narrate by Yaqub, narrated by Ibn Alia, narrated by Abu Raja
who related that he asked Al-Hassan regarding (5:4 "We brought down
upon you the Book (Quran) in truth, confirming what is between your
hands from the book" who replied, "(The Quran) CONFIRMS ALL THESE
BOOKS AND IS A GUARDIAN OVER THEM." Ikrimah was asked about this verse
while I was listening and he replied, "A GUARDIAN over it."
Others have said that "muhaimin" means TO CONFIRM (BELIEVE IN). Of
those who mentioned this opinion are:
Narrated by Yunus, narrated by Ibn Wahab, narrated by Ibn Zaid who
said that "muhaimin" means TO CONFIRM IT. EVERYTHING ALLAH HAS GIVEN
IN THE TORAH OR THE GOSPEL OR THE PSALMS THE QURAN BELIEVES IN IT and
everything Allah has mentioned in the Quran is confirmed and what was
spoken about it is true.
Others have said that (5:4 "We brought down upon you the Book
(Quran) in truth, confirming what is between your hands from the book"
refers to the prophet of Allah – pbuh. Of those who mentioned this
opinion are:
Narrated by Al-Mathny, narrated by Abu Huthaifa, narrated by Shibl,
narrated by Ibn Abu Nujaih, narrated by Mujahid who stated that
"muhaimin" over it refers to the Muhammad – pbuh – who was entrusted
with the Quran.
Narrated by Muhammad Ibn Umar, narrated by Abu Asim, narrated by Isa,
narrated by Ibn Abu Nujaih, narrated by Mujahid who said that
"muhaimin" over it means that Muhammad – pbuh – was entrusted with the
Quran.
To interpret the meaning as Mujahid understood it, the verse would
say, "We have brought down the book, confirming the books that the
preceded it, to you who is guarding it." Therefore, the word
"confirming" is a description of the book (Quran) and "guardian" is in
connected to the phrase "to you" which is in reference to the prophet
– pbuh. This interpretation, however, is not the way it is understood
by the Arabs and is wrong, as a matter of fact. The adjective
"muhaimin" (guardian) is a description of the book that is also
"confirming", so these are two words which cannot be but a description
of the same book. For had the meaning of the words been as was
narrated by Mujahid, it would have been said "We have brought down the
book, confirming the books that preceded it, to you who is guarding
it," where guardian refers to the phrase "to you" (Muhammad) because
it occurs after it and there is nothing else that "guardian" could
refer to. So if anyone thinks that "confirming" is as Mujahid
explained it then the phrase "that is between your hands" would no
longer make sense because the phrase "your hands" would not be
addressing the same person who had the book descend upon him. The
words in the verse would have to change to "We have brought down the
book, confirming the books that preceded it, to you who is guarding
it," in order to give Mujahid’s meaning.
And here is one from Sahih Al-Bukhari:
Chapter 69. Book of the Virtues of the Qur'an
I. Chapter. How the Revelation descended and the first of it to be
revealed.
Ibn 'Abbas said that "muhaymin" (5l:4 means "trustworthy." The
Qur'an is THE GUARANTOR of every Book before it. (Aisha Bewley, The
Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari; source; underline and capital emphasis
ours) |
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Menno van Barneveld
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Integrity of the Bible |
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Dear Arah,
| Quote: | ----- Original Message -----
From: "arah" <arah1958@gmail.com
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.christian.pentecostal,alt.religion.christian.roman->catholic,alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian.methodist
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 5:04 AM
Subject: Integrity of the Bible
Muhaimin and Integrity of the Bible
The precise meaning of the text centers on the word muhaimin, which A.
Yusuf Ali translated as "guarding it in safety."
"What is the Muslim basis or criterion for accepting or not
accepting portions or passages from the Bible? The Qur’an itself
provides such criterion:
And unto you have We revealed the Scripture with the truth,
confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watch over it… (the
Qur’an 5:4
|
God the Father sealed prophecy in 34 AD Gregorian calendar.
This can be proven from Daniel 9:24-27.
Therefor Mohammed can not have been a prophet and the Qur’an cannot be a
from heaven revealed scripture.
The truth is that Mohammed was guided by Satan as the satanic verses proof.
And the Muslims are worshipping Satan and not God the Father.
| Quote: |
This emphasizes two main aspects of the Qur’an:
a) The Qur’an confirms those teachings or passages of previous
scriptures which remained intact.
|
The Qur’an does conform nothing at all.
| Quote: | b) The Qur’an is the last, complete, authoritative and authentic
revelation.
The Qur’an is no revelation from God at all. |
| Quote: | "And Jesus answered him, ‘The first of all commandments is
hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.’" (Mark 12:29)
A Muslim who reads this passage in the Qur’an can find no
objection to its essence. After all the Qur’an confirms:
Say He is Allaah, the One and Only (God). (The Qur’an 112:1)
The Muslim can find no objection because he believes in the unknown as the |
soura states.
| Quote: | The People of the Book do not have their Tawraat and Injeel intact in
the pristine condition and bible is only a portion of the Tawraat and
Injil.
|
The people of the book Jews and Christians have the book with some minor
cpoying mistakes, but the Muslims have only a small and by Mohammed
distorted portion of it.
The Tawraat and Injil mean nothing.
| Quote: | When Allah the Exalted mentioned the Torah, which he brought down upon
Moses whom He spoke with, He complimented it supported and decreed
that it be followed since it was legitimate to follow. Likewise, He
mentioned the Gospel where He complimented it and ordered its people
to uphold it and follow what is in it, as has been shown. The glorious
Quran, which (Allah) sent down on His servant and precious messenger,
was mentioned by saying, (Sura 5:4 "To thee We sent the Scripture in
truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it, and guarding it
in safety. We descended upon you the Book in truth," meaning in
honesty there is no doubt that it (the Quran) came from Allah.
|
Allah did not send the Qur’an upon Mohammed, Mohammed made it all himself.
There is no doubt that the Qur’an came from Mohammed and not from Allah.
Menno van Barneveld. |
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H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:29 am Post subject: Re: Integrity of the Bible |
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"arah" <arah1958@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8d88bad2-6967-4056-85e5-7116f6cb1ebc@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Muhaimin and Integrity of the Bible
|
| Quote: | Much has been written and said about the following Quranic passage:
|
Who cares what a BOOK OF REVISIONIST LIES says?
[snip]
Ike |
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arah
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Integrity of the Bible |
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My dear Menno van Barneveld,
Will I believe you or the following scientists?
Dr. Gerald C. Goeringer is Course Director and Associate Professor of
Medical Embryology at the Department of Cell Biology, School of
Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington, DC, USA. During the
Eighth Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Professor
Goeringer stated the following in the presentation of his research
paper:
“In a relatively few aayahs (Quranic verses) is contained a rather
comprehensive description of human development from the time of
commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and
complete record of human development, such as classification,
terminology, and description, existed previously. In most, if not all,
instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording
of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development
recorded in the traditional scientific literature."
Dr. William W. Hay is a well-known marine scientist. He is Professor
of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, Boulder,
Colorado, USA. He was formerly the Dean of the Rosenstiel School of
Marine and Atmospheric Science at the University of Miami, Miami,
Florida, USA. After a discussion with Professor Hay about the Quran’s
mention of recently discovered facts on seas, he said:
“I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the
ancient scriptures of the Holy Quran, and I have no way of knowing
where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting
that they are there and that this work is going on to discover it, the
meaning of some of the passages.”
And when he was asked about the source of the Quran, he replied:
“Well, I would think it must be the divine being.
”Dr. T. V. N. Persaud is Professor of Anatomy, Professor of Pediatrics
and Child Health, and Professor of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and
Reproductive Sciences at the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg,
Manitoba, Canada. There, he was the Chairman of the Department of
Anatomy for 16 years. He is well-known in his field. He is the author
or editor of 22 textbooks and has published over 180 scientific
papers. In 1991, he received the most distinguished award presented in
the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the
Canadian Association of Anatomists. Professor Persaud has included
some Quranic verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad in some of his
books - and presented these verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad
at several conferences. When he was asked about the scientific
miracles in the Quran which he has researched, he stated the
following:
“...Muhammad .. could not read, didn’t know to write. - You have
someone illiterate making profound pronouncements - amazingly accurate
about scientific nature. [so] many accuracies - I have no difficulty
in my mind that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led
him to these statements.”
http://scienceislam.com/scientists_quran.php
On Sep 13, 7:33 pm, "Menno van Barneveld" <g.van.barnev...@hccnet.nl>
wrote:
| Quote: | Dear Arah,
----- Original Message -----
From: "arah" <arah1...@gmail.com
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.christian.pentecostal,alt.religion.christian.roman->catholic,alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian.methodist
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 5:04 AM
Subject: Integrity of the Bible
Muhaimin and Integrity of the Bible
The precise meaning of the text centers on the word muhaimin, which A.
Yusuf Ali translated as "guarding it in safety."
"What is the Muslim basis or criterion for accepting or not
accepting portions or passages from the Bible? The Qur’an itself
provides such criterion:
And unto you have We revealed the Scripture with the truth,
confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watch over it… (the
Qur’an 5:48)
God the Father sealed prophecy in 34 AD Gregorian calendar.
This can be proven from Daniel 9:24-27.
Therefor Mohammed can not have been a prophet and the Qur’an cannot be a
from heaven revealed scripture.
The truth is that Mohammed was guided by Satan as the satanic verses proof.
And the Muslims are worshipping Satan and not God the Father.
This emphasizes two main aspects of the Qur’an:
a) The Qur’an confirms those teachings or passages of previous
scriptures which remained intact.
The Qur’an does conform nothing at all.
b) The Qur’an is the last, complete, authoritative and authentic
revelation.
The Qur’an is no revelation from God at all.
"And Jesus answered him, ‘The first of all commandments is
hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.’" (Mark 12:29)
A Muslim who reads this passage in the Qur’an can find no
objection to its essence. After all the Qur’an confirms:
Say He is Allaah, the One and Only (God). (The Qur’an 112:1)
The Muslim can find no objection because he believes in the unknown as the
soura states.
The People of the Book do not have their Tawraat and Injeel intact in
the pristine condition and bible is only a portion of the Tawraat and
Injil.
The people of the book Jews and Christians have the book with some minor
cpoying mistakes, but the Muslims have only a small and by Mohammed
distorted portion of it.
The Tawraat and Injil mean nothing.
When Allah the Exalted mentioned the Torah, which he brought down upon
Moses whom He spoke with, He complimented it supported and decreed
that it be followed since it was legitimate to follow. Likewise, He
mentioned the Gospel where He complimented it and ordered its people
to uphold it and follow what is in it, as has been shown. The glorious
Quran, which (Allah) sent down on His servant and precious messenger,
was mentioned by saying, (Sura 5:4 "To thee We sent the Scripture in
truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it, and guarding it
in safety. We descended upon you the Book in truth," meaning in
honesty there is no doubt that it (the Quran) came from Allah.
Allah did not send the Qur’an upon Mohammed, Mohammed made it all himself.
There is no doubt that the Qur’an came from Mohammed and not from Allah..
Menno van Barneveld.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text - |
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| Back to top |
Menno van Barneveld
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: Integrity of the Bible |
|
|
"arah" <arah1958@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:13cddfb9-4da3-4ed9-a52f-c5516d43b72b@1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | My dear Menno van Barneveld,
Will I believe you or the following scientists?
|
Yes, Arah, believe me, for I will give you the proof of my point and you
will be able to check it.
But the statements of these scientists contain no facts, they are hollow
vessels.
Here is my proof:
Daniel 9: 24-27: "Seventy year weeks are closed about your people and about
your sanctuary city, to restore the apostasy, to complete the Fall, to cover
the sin, to have fetched ever lasting truth, to seal behold and preaching
and to anoint a saint of the saints.
So do know and understand: From the going out of the command, to return to
rebuild Jerusalem, till an anointed duke, that are seven weeks,
and sixty-two weeks, in these the return will be rebuild, residences and
graves, in the suppression of the times.
But after the sixty-two weeks an anointed will be ploughed under, and nobody
accompanies him,
and the soldiers of a duke destroy the city and the temple, but he dies in a
flood,
and at the end war, closed it is, unshakable, and he has supreme power of
the many in the covenant, one week,
and halfway through the week he ends victim and gift,- so, on the wings of
horror beings,
so, until he has full ended, and the decided pours itself out over the
decider.”
The prophecy speaks about year weeks, to be interpreted as seven year
periods. So 70 year weeks take up a time span of 70 x 7 years = 490 years.
To seal behold and preaching means that God the Father did seal prophecy
after the crucifixion and the resurrection of Jesus.
With the command of king Kores in the first year of his reign to Ezra, to
return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple and the city, as the start of the
70 year weeks, we are able to appoint the year that the crucifixion took
place.
Ezra got the command to return to Jerusalem on 1 Nisan 3304. The 70 year
week ended on 1 Nisan in the year 3304+ 490 is the year 3794. That was in
the spring ot 34 AD in the Gregorian calendar.
Jesus Christ was crucified and resurrected in 31 AD and his apostles who did
write the New Testament were his followers before 34.
After 34 there did not come new prophets, so also Muhammed was not a
prophet.
Daniel 7: 23 "Thus he said: 'As for the fourth beast, there shall be a
fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all the kingdoms, and
it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to
pieces. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise,
and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former
ones, and shall put down three kings. 25 He shall speak words against the
Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think
to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a
time, two times, and half a time.
25 He shall speak words against the Most High: this did Muhammed with the
satanic verses.
and shall wear out the saints of the Most High: this do Muslims by killing
Christians for their faith, a Muslim that converts to Jesus Christ can be
killed by any other Muslim.
and shall think to change the times: this did Muhammed with the 12 moon
months calendar that makes the year shorter then a solar year.
and the law: this is the sharia that Muslims try to use even in foreign
countries.
From this it shows that the 4th beast is represented by the Muslim counties.
Now read in verse 23: it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down,
and break it to pieces. This is what the Muslim countries are going to do in
the endtime for Satan. And you are already trying to devour the Christians.
Reform to a disciple of Jesus Christ, to become saved and to not burn next
to Satan in the everburning sea of flames.
Menno van Barneveld.- |
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| Back to top |
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Integrity of the Bible |
|
|
"Menno van Barneveld" <g.van.barneveld@hccnet.nl> wrote in message
news:48cd2b4e$0$742$3a628fcd@textreader.nntp.hccnet.nl...
[snip]
| Quote: | Here is my proof:
Daniel 9: 24-27: "Seventy year weeks are closed about your people and
about your sanctuary city, to restore the apostasy, to complete the Fall,
to cover the sin, to have fetched ever lasting truth, to seal behold and
preaching and to anoint a saint of the saints.
So do know and understand: From the going out of the command, to return to
rebuild Jerusalem, till an anointed duke, that are seven weeks,
and sixty-two weeks, in these the return will be rebuild, residences and
graves, in the suppression of the times.
But after the sixty-two weeks an anointed will be ploughed under, and
nobody accompanies him,
and the soldiers of a duke destroy the city and the temple, but he dies in
a flood,
and at the end war, closed it is, unshakable, and he has supreme power of
the many in the covenant, one week,
and halfway through the week he ends victim and gift,- so, on the wings of
horror beings,
so, until he has full ended, and the decided pours itself out over the
decider.”
The prophecy speaks about year weeks, to be interpreted as seven year
periods.
|
HORSESHIT!
Leveticus 25 ALONE declares THREE DIFFERENT USES of the term "weeks."
A "week" as seven days.
A "week" as seven years to make a Sabbatical cycle.
A "week" as seven x seven years plus 1 to make a Jubilee cycle.
And Jewish calendar science is based on 7 x 7 + 1 "weeks" of days to make a
year, Sabbath rules and feast days not withstanding.
And SEVEN PROPHECIES speak of prophetic events IN TERMS OF SEVENTY YEARS,
not "WEEKS."
Moreover, THAT'S WHERE DANIEL STARTED FROM--Jeremiah's prophecy of SEVENTY
YEARS.
| Quote: | So 70 year weeks take up a time span of 70 x 7 years = 490 years.
|
[snip]
WHICH WAS FULFILLED (once) IN THE EVENTS OF THE MACCABEAN REVOLT.
Antiochus Epiphanes was the FIGURE FOR ANTICHRIST.
Menelaus was the FIGURE FOR THE FALSE PROPHET.
Judas Maccabeus WAS THE FIGURE FOR THE MESSIAH.
AND IT WAS ALL DONE BETWEEN 167 AND 160 BC, COMPLETING DANIEL'S
PROPHECY...(once).
Here's a hint for you, oh, clueless one.
DANIEL GAVE A PROPHETIC FORM IN THREE PARTS.
JESUS GAVE AN OUTLINE IN THREE PARTS.
JOHN INCLUDED A CHRONOLOGY IN THREE PARTS.
CONCLUSION: THE END OF THE AGE HAS THREE PARTS, AND THE FALSE TEACHERS (such
as yourself) CUT OFF THE FIRST TWO 'CAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE JESUS' MESSAGE,
which was CONSISTENTLY STATED as "BE THOU FAITHFUL, EVEN UNTO DEATH...," NOT
"I'll fly away."
Ike |
|
| |
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| Back to top |
Menno van Barneveld
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Integrity of the Bible |
|
|
Dear Ike,
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybooks@msn.com> schreef in bericht
news:gaksah$3kk$1@registered.motzarella.org...
| Quote: | "Menno van Barneveld" <g.van.barneveld@hccnet.nl> wrote in message
news:48cd2b4e$0$742$3a628fcd@textreader.nntp.hccnet.nl...
[snip]
|
| Quote: | Here is my proof:
Daniel 9: 24-27: "Seventy year weeks are closed about your people and
about your sanctuary city, to restore the apostasy, to complete the Fall,
to cover the sin, to have fetched ever lasting truth, to seal behold and
preaching and to anoint a saint of the saints.
|
This all happened because of the life and death of Jesus Christ on earth.
After his ascending to heaven he was anointed in heaven as our king and high
priest.
Prophecy was sealed, everlasting truth, the gospel was fetched, the Christ
had covered the sin by his death on the cross.
| Quote: | So do know and understand: From the going out of the command, to return
to rebuild Jerusalem, till an anointed duke, that are seven weeks,
and sixty-two weeks, in these the return will be rebuild, residences and
graves, in the suppression of the times.
|
Ezra went to Jerusalem on 1 Nisan 3304 at the commant of king Kores.
(7 + 62) x 7 = 483, 3304 + 483 = 3787 which is 27 AD Gregorian calendar.
This is the start of the work of John the Baptist. Jesus started a year
later, 28 AD.
| Quote: | But after the sixty-two weeks an anointed will be ploughed under, and
nobody accompanies him,
|
This the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, while all his disciples had been fled.
| Quote: | and the soldiers of a duke destroy the city and the temple, but he dies
in a flood,
|
The Roman soldiers destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. Pilate was taken
captive and brought to Rome but somewhere disappeared without known cause.
| Quote: | and at the end war, closed it is, unshakable,
|
The Roman Jewish war.
| Quote: | and he has supreme power of the many in the covenant, one week,
|
the week that Jesus was in Jerusalem, starting with Palmsunday. The ruling
class did not dare to do something against Jesus because of his many
followers. So he reigned as the king of Israel for one week and he could say
to the Pharisees what ever he wanted.
| Quote: | and halfway through the week he ends victim and gift,
|
Jesus drove out of the temple all who sold and bought and he overturned the
tables of the moneychangers and those who sold pigeons.
This was halfway through the yearweek. From this it must have been autumn 30
AD, the Sukkot.
This means also that Jesus Christ was crucified at Pesach spring 31 AD.
| Quote: | - so, on the wings of horror beings,
|
Just before the Roman Jewish war started the Romans placed the statue of the
wargod on the wing of the altar.
| Quote: | so, until he has full ended, and the decided pours itself out over the
decider."
Jesus decided to be crucified to do the will of his Father against his own |
will and so it happened.
| Quote: | The prophecy speaks about year weeks, to be interpreted as seven year
periods.
HORSESHIT!
Leveticus 25 ALONE declares THREE DIFFERENT USES of the term "weeks."
A "week" as seven days.
A "week" as seven years to make a Sabbatical cycle.
This shows up to be the right choice. |
| Quote: | A "week" as seven x seven years plus 1 to make a Jubilee cycle.
And Jewish calendar science is based on 7 x 7 + 1 "weeks" of days to make
a year, Sabbath rules and feast days not withstanding.
And SEVEN PROPHECIES speak of prophetic events IN TERMS OF SEVENTY YEARS,
not "WEEKS."
Moreover, THAT'S WHERE DANIEL STARTED FROM--Jeremiah's prophecy of SEVENTY
YEARS.
The end of this senventy years of Jeremia was the startingpoint of the |
seventy year weeks period of Daniel.
| Quote: |
So 70 year weeks take up a time span of 70 x 7 years = 490 years.
[snip]
WHICH WAS FULFILLED (once) IN THE EVENTS OF THE MACCABEAN REVOLT.
Antiochus Epiphanes was the FIGURE FOR ANTICHRIST.
Menelaus was the FIGURE FOR THE FALSE PROPHET.
Judas Maccabeus WAS THE FIGURE FOR THE MESSIAH.
AND IT WAS ALL DONE BETWEEN 167 AND 160 BC, COMPLETING DANIEL'S
PROPHECY...(once).
This cannot be the case because of the following: |
In Daniel 8:14 is prophecied that the giving over of the host (temple) and
the continual burnt offerings (temple worshipping of God) will last 2300
evenings and mornings. This period is still lasting, for there are no temple
and no continual burnt offerings. And the transgression that makes desolate
(the endtime) must still take place.
Therefor Juda Maccabe could only be a for bode of the messiah, for he
restored the temple and temple service. The Roman soldiers destructed the
temple and stpped the templeservice completely. So 70 AD must be the start
of the 2300 period definitely.
| Quote: | Here's a hint for you, oh, clueless one.
DANIEL GAVE A PROPHETIC FORM IN THREE PARTS.
JESUS GAVE AN OUTLINE IN THREE PARTS.
JOHN INCLUDED A CHRONOLOGY IN THREE PARTS.
CONCLUSION: THE END OF THE AGE HAS THREE PARTS, AND THE FALSE TEACHERS
(such as yourself) CUT OFF THE FIRST TWO 'CAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE JESUS'
MESSAGE, which was CONSISTENTLY STATED as "BE THOU FAITHFUL, EVEN UNTO
DEATH...," NOT "I'll fly away."
Ike
Jesus Christ ascended to heaven where he still is. This also is prophecied |
by Daniel. In chapter 7:
13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there
came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was
presented before him. 14 And to him was given dominion and glory and
kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his
dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his
kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
This after the destruction of the forth beast. So Jesus is still in heaven.
He will return on the clouds of heaven when the earth is made desolate.
May Jesus Christ our lord be a lamp for your feet and a light on your path.
Menno. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
arah
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: Integrity of the Bible |
|
|
Menno van Barneveld.
Just a very simple questions.
If Jesus can't save himself from the Roman and can't save Jerusalem
how you are sure Jesus can save you? Where gone the comforter or the
holy spirit that suppose to advice and bring success to the Israel or
the Christians.
Good Luck
On Sep 15, 5:17 pm, "Menno van Barneveld" <g.van.barnev...@hccnet.nl>
wrote:
| Quote: | Dear Ike,
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybo...@msn.com> schreef in berichtnews:gaksah$3kk$1@registered.motzarella.org...
"Menno van Barneveld" <g.van.barnev...@hccnet.nl> wrote in message
news:48cd2b4e$0$742$3a628fcd@textreader.nntp.hccnet.nl...
[snip]
Here is my proof:
Daniel 9: 24-27: "Seventy year weeks are closed about your people and
about your sanctuary city, to restore the apostasy, to complete the Fall,
to cover the sin, to have fetched ever lasting truth, to seal behold and
preaching and to anoint a saint of the saints.
This all happened because of the life and death of Jesus Christ on earth.
After his ascending to heaven he was anointed in heaven as our king and high
priest.
Prophecy was sealed, everlasting truth, the gospel was fetched, the Christ
had covered the sin by his death on the cross.
So do know and understand: From the going out of the command, to return
to rebuild Jerusalem, till an anointed duke, that are seven weeks,
and sixty-two weeks, in these the return will be rebuild, residences and
graves, in the suppression of the times.
Ezra went to Jerusalem on 1 Nisan 3304 at the commant of king Kores.
(7 + 62) x 7 = 483, 3304 + 483 = 3787 which is 27 AD Gregorian calendar.
This is the start of the work of John the Baptist. Jesus started a year
later, 28 AD.
But after the sixty-two weeks an anointed will be ploughed under, and
nobody accompanies him,
This the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, while all his disciples had been fled.
and the soldiers of a duke destroy the city and the temple, but he dies
in a flood,
The Roman soldiers destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. Pilate was taken
captive and brought to Rome but somewhere disappeared without known cause..
and at the end war, closed it is, unshakable,
The Roman Jewish war.
and he has supreme power of the many in the covenant, one week,
the week that Jesus was in Jerusalem, starting with Palmsunday. The ruling
class did not dare to do something against Jesus because of his many
followers. So he reigned as the king of Israel for one week and he could say
to the Pharisees what ever he wanted.
and halfway through the week he ends victim and gift,
Jesus drove out of the temple all who sold and bought and he overturned the
tables of the moneychangers and those who sold pigeons.
This was halfway through the yearweek. From this it must have been autumn 30
AD, the Sukkot.
This means also that Jesus Christ was crucified at Pesach spring 31 AD.
- so, on the wings of horror beings,
Just before the Roman Jewish war started the Romans placed the statue of the
wargod on the wing of the altar.
so, until he has full ended, and the decided pours itself out over the
decider."
Jesus decided to be crucified to do the will of his Father against his own
will and so it happened.
The prophecy speaks about year weeks, to be interpreted as seven year
periods.
HORSESHIT!
Leveticus 25 ALONE declares THREE DIFFERENT USES of the term "weeks."
A "week" as seven days.
A "week" as seven years to make a Sabbatical cycle.
This shows up to be the right choice.
A "week" as seven x seven years plus 1 to make a Jubilee cycle.
And Jewish calendar science is based on 7 x 7 + 1 "weeks" of days to make
a year, Sabbath rules and feast days not withstanding.
And SEVEN PROPHECIES speak of prophetic events IN TERMS OF SEVENTY YEARS,
not "WEEKS."
Moreover, THAT'S WHERE DANIEL STARTED FROM--Jeremiah's prophecy of SEVENTY
YEARS.
The end of this senventy years of Jeremia was the startingpoint of the
seventy year weeks period of Daniel.
So 70 year weeks take up a time span of 70 x 7 years = 490 years.
[snip]
WHICH WAS FULFILLED (once) IN THE EVENTS OF THE MACCABEAN REVOLT.
Antiochus Epiphanes was the FIGURE FOR ANTICHRIST.
Menelaus was the FIGURE FOR THE FALSE PROPHET.
Judas Maccabeus WAS THE FIGURE FOR THE MESSIAH.
AND IT WAS ALL DONE BETWEEN 167 AND 160 BC, COMPLETING DANIEL'S
PROPHECY...(once).
This cannot be the case because of the following:
In Daniel 8:14 is prophecied that the giving over of the host (temple) and
the continual burnt offerings (temple worshipping of God) will last 2300
evenings and mornings. This period is still lasting, for there are no temple
and no continual burnt offerings. And the transgression that makes desolate
(the endtime) must still take place.
Therefor Juda Maccabe could only be a for bode of the messiah, for he
restored the temple and temple service. The Roman soldiers destructed the
temple and stpped the templeservice completely. So 70 AD must be the start
of the 2300 period definitely.
Here's a hint for you, oh, clueless one.
DANIEL GAVE A PROPHETIC FORM IN THREE PARTS.
JESUS GAVE AN OUTLINE IN THREE PARTS.
JOHN INCLUDED A CHRONOLOGY IN THREE PARTS.
CONCLUSION: THE END OF THE AGE HAS THREE PARTS, AND THE FALSE TEACHERS
(such as yourself) CUT OFF THE FIRST TWO 'CAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE JESUS'
MESSAGE, which was CONSISTENTLY STATED as "BE THOU FAITHFUL, EVEN UNTO
DEATH...," NOT "I'll fly away."
Ike
Jesus Christ ascended to heaven where he still is. This also is prophecied
by Daniel. In chapter 7:
13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there
came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was
presented before him. 14 And to him was given dominion and glory and
kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his
dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his
kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
This after the destruction of the forth beast. So Jesus is still in heaven.
He will return on the clouds of heaven when the earth is made desolate.
May Jesus Christ our lord be a lamp for your feet and a light on your path.
Menno. |
|
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Integrity of the Bible |
|
|
"Menno van Barneveld" <g.van.barneveld@hccnet.nl> wrote in message
news:48ce2838$0$737$3a628fcd@textreader.nntp.hccnet.nl...
| Quote: | Dear Ike,
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybooks@msn.com> schreef in bericht
news:gaksah$3kk$1@registered.motzarella.org...
"Menno van Barneveld" <g.van.barneveld@hccnet.nl> wrote in message
news:48cd2b4e$0$742$3a628fcd@textreader.nntp.hccnet.nl...
[snip]
Here is my proof:
Daniel 9: 24-27: "Seventy year weeks are closed about your people and
about your sanctuary city, to restore the apostasy, to complete the
Fall, to cover the sin, to have fetched ever lasting truth, to seal
behold and preaching and to anoint a saint of the saints.
This all happened because of the life and death of Jesus Christ on earth.
|
JESUS DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE FIST ITERATION OF THE PROPHECY,
numbnuts (except to establish the precedence for His second coming).
[snip the rest of the bullshit]
| Quote: | The prophecy speaks about year weeks, to be interpreted as seven year
periods.
HORSESHIT!
Leveticus 25 ALONE declares THREE DIFFERENT USES of the term "weeks."
A "week" as seven days.
A "week" as seven years to make a Sabbatical cycle.
This shows up to be the right choice.
|
ONLY IN THE FIRST ITERATION, false prophet--SEVEN OT PROPHECIES SAY "SEVENTY
YEARS."
| Quote: | A "week" as seven x seven years plus 1 to make a Jubilee cycle.
And Jewish calendar science is based on 7 x 7 + 1 "weeks" of days to make
a year, Sabbath rules and feast days not withstanding.
And SEVEN PROPHECIES speak of prophetic events IN TERMS OF SEVENTY YEARS,
not "WEEKS."
Moreover, THAT'S WHERE DANIEL STARTED FROM--Jeremiah's prophecy of
SEVENTY YEARS.
The end of this senventy years of Jeremia was the startingpoint of the
seventy year weeks period of Daniel.
|
WRONG.
THE "SEVENTY YEARS" OF JEREMIAH HAVEN'T EVEN STARTED YET.
WHAT WAS PAST ONLY FORESHADOWS THE END OF THE AGE, false prophet.
| Quote: | So 70 year weeks take up a time span of 70 x 7 years = 490 years.
[snip]
WHICH WAS FULFILLED (once) IN THE EVENTS OF THE MACCABEAN REVOLT.
Antiochus Epiphanes was the FIGURE FOR ANTICHRIST.
Menelaus was the FIGURE FOR THE FALSE PROPHET.
Judas Maccabeus WAS THE FIGURE FOR THE MESSIAH.
AND IT WAS ALL DONE BETWEEN 167 AND 160 BC, COMPLETING DANIEL'S
PROPHECY...(once).
This cannot be...
|
Moron: Jesus OBSERVED HANUKAH, so IT "WAS," and "IS."
WHAT'S LEFT IS THE "IS TO COME."
| Quote: | Here's a hint for you, oh, clueless one.
DANIEL GAVE A PROPHETIC FORM IN THREE PARTS.
JESUS GAVE AN OUTLINE IN THREE PARTS.
JOHN INCLUDED A CHRONOLOGY IN THREE PARTS.
CONCLUSION: THE END OF THE AGE HAS THREE PARTS, AND THE FALSE TEACHERS
(such as yourself) CUT OFF THE FIRST TWO 'CAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE JESUS'
MESSAGE, which was CONSISTENTLY STATED as "BE THOU FAITHFUL, EVEN UNTO
DEATH...," NOT "I'll fly away."
Ike
Jesus Christ ascended to heaven where he still is.
|
YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE AS TO WHERE JESUS WENT (just like your Pharisee,
Sadducee, and Herodian fathers didn't).
[snip the rest of the moron's drivel]
Ike |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Menno van Barneveld
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:03 am Post subject: Re: Integrity of the Bible |
|
|
| Quote: | "arah" <arah1958@gmail.com> wrote in item
news:36aec1d3-3eaf-4ac4-af09->4c3537642fc0@p10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Menno van Barneveld.
Just a very simple questions.
If Jesus can't save himself from the Roman and can't save Jerusalem
how you are sure Jesus can save you? Where gone the comforter or the
holy spirit that suppose to advice and bring success to the Israel or
the Christians.
Good Luck
|
Dear Arah,
Jesus Christ was able to save himself from crucifiction,
but he did the will of God the Father.
Therefore God gave him eternal life in heaven. He is 2010 years old now.
He is my lord and when I ask him anything he answers me.
That is why I am sure he will give me eternal life in heaven when someone
cuts my head of.
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/go.aspx?z=http%3a%2f%2fProphetofDoom.net%2fvideo%2fkim_sun_il_beheading.wmv
Menno. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
John Fraser
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Integrity of the Bible |
|
|
Good morning Arah;
"arah" <arah1958@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:36aec1d3-3eaf-4ac4-af09-4c3537642fc0@p10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Menno van Barneveld.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a very simple questions.
If Jesus can't save himself from the Roman and can't save Jerusalem
how you are sure Jesus can save you? Where gone the comforter or the
holy spirit that suppose to advice and bring success to the Israel or
the Christians.
Good Luck
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are two answers to your question: Christian, and Muslim.
In the case of the former, Jesus said he could call down 10,000 angels
and bring everything to an abrupt halt. But, doing so was against his
Father's wishes so that he become the sacrificial lamb to both Jew and
Gentile beginning a new covenant.
In the case of the latter, Jesus did nothing to save himself as God
replaced him with a "twin" so he would not be crucified. Unfortunately, the
Qu'ran does not elaborate on why Jesus was going to be crucified in the
first place.
Cheers,
John
On Sep 15, 5:17 pm, "Menno van Barneveld" <g.van.barnev...@hccnet.nl>
wrote:
| Quote: | Dear Ike,
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybo...@msn.com> schreef in
berichtnews:gaksah$3kk$1@registered.motzarella.org...
"Menno van Barneveld" <g.van.barnev...@hccnet.nl> wrote in message
news:48cd2b4e$0$742$3a628fcd@textreader.nntp.hccnet.nl...
[snip]
Here is my proof:
Daniel 9: 24-27: "Seventy year weeks are closed about your people and
about your sanctuary city, to restore the apostasy, to complete the
Fall,
to cover the sin, to have fetched ever lasting truth, to seal behold
and
preaching and to anoint a saint of the saints.
This all happened because of the life and death of Jesus Christ on earth.
After his ascending to heaven he was anointed in heaven as our king and
high
priest.
Prophecy was sealed, everlasting truth, the gospel was fetched, the Christ
had covered the sin by his death on the cross.
So do know and understand: From the going out of the command, to return
to rebuild Jerusalem, till an anointed duke, that are seven weeks,
and sixty-two weeks, in these the return will be rebuild, residences
and
graves, in the suppression of the times.
Ezra went to Jerusalem on 1 Nisan 3304 at the commant of king Kores.
(7 + 62) x 7 = 483, 3304 + 483 = 3787 which is 27 AD Gregorian calendar.
This is the start of the work of John the Baptist. Jesus started a year
later, 28 AD.
But after the sixty-two weeks an anointed will be ploughed under, and
nobody accompanies him,
This the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, while all his disciples had been
fled.
and the soldiers of a duke destroy the city and the temple, but he dies
in a flood,
The Roman soldiers destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. Pilate was taken
captive and brought to Rome but somewhere disappeared without known cause.
and at the end war, closed it is, unshakable,
The Roman Jewish war.
and he has supreme power of the many in the covenant, one week,
the week that Jesus was in Jerusalem, starting with Palmsunday. The ruling
class did not dare to do something against Jesus because of his many
followers. So he reigned as the king of Israel for one week and he could
say
to the Pharisees what ever he wanted.
and halfway through the week he ends victim and gift,
Jesus drove out of the temple all who sold and bought and he overturned
the
tables of the moneychangers and those who sold pigeons.
This was halfway through the yearweek. From this it must have been autumn
30
AD, the Sukkot.
This means also that Jesus Christ was crucified at Pesach spring 31 AD.
- so, on the wings of horror beings,
Just before the Roman Jewish war started the Romans placed the statue of
the
wargod on the wing of the altar.
so, until he has full ended, and the decided pours itself out over the
decider."
Jesus decided to be crucified to do the will of his Father against his own
will and so it happened.
The prophecy speaks about year weeks, to be interpreted as seven year
periods.
HORSESHIT!
Leveticus 25 ALONE declares THREE DIFFERENT USES of the term "weeks."
A "week" as seven days.
A "week" as seven years to make a Sabbatical cycle.
This shows up to be the right choice.
A "week" as seven x seven years plus 1 to make a Jubilee cycle.
And Jewish calendar science is based on 7 x 7 + 1 "weeks" of days to
make
a year, Sabbath rules and feast days not withstanding.
And SEVEN PROPHECIES speak of prophetic events IN TERMS OF SEVENTY
YEARS,
not "WEEKS."
Moreover, THAT'S WHERE DANIEL STARTED FROM--Jeremiah's prophecy of
SEVENTY
YEARS.
The end of this senventy years of Jeremia was the startingpoint of the
seventy year weeks period of Daniel.
So 70 year weeks take up a time span of 70 x 7 years = 490 years.
[snip]
WHICH WAS FULFILLED (once) IN THE EVENTS OF THE MACCABEAN REVOLT.
Antiochus Epiphanes was the FIGURE FOR ANTICHRIST.
Menelaus was the FIGURE FOR THE FALSE PROPHET.
Judas Maccabeus WAS THE FIGURE FOR THE MESSIAH.
AND IT WAS ALL DONE BETWEEN 167 AND 160 BC, COMPLETING DANIEL'S
PROPHECY...(once).
This cannot be the case because of the following:
In Daniel 8:14 is prophecied that the giving over of the host (temple) and
the continual burnt offerings (temple worshipping of God) will last 2300
evenings and mornings. This period is still lasting, for there are no
temple
and no continual burnt offerings. And the transgression that makes
desolate
(the endtime) must still take place.
Therefor Juda Maccabe could only be a for bode of the messiah, for he
restored the temple and temple service. The Roman soldiers destructed the
temple and stpped the templeservice completely. So 70 AD must be the start
of the 2300 period definitely.
Here's a hint for you, oh, clueless one.
DANIEL GAVE A PROPHETIC FORM IN THREE PARTS.
JESUS GAVE AN OUTLINE IN THREE PARTS.
JOHN INCLUDED A CHRONOLOGY IN THREE PARTS.
CONCLUSION: THE END OF THE AGE HAS THREE PARTS, AND THE FALSE TEACHERS
(such as yourself) CUT OFF THE FIRST TWO 'CAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE JESUS'
MESSAGE, which was CONSISTENTLY STATED as "BE THOU FAITHFUL, EVEN UNTO
DEATH...," NOT "I'll fly away."
Ike
Jesus Christ ascended to heaven where he still is. This also is prophecied
by Daniel. In chapter 7:
13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there
came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was
presented before him. 14 And to him was given dominion and glory and
kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his
dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his
kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
This after the destruction of the forth beast. So Jesus is still in
heaven.
He will return on the clouds of heaven when the earth is made desolate.
May Jesus Christ our lord be a lamp for your feet and a light on your
path.
Menno. |
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arah
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Integrity of the Bible |
|
|
My dear John Fraser.
If we just compare the story of Moses and Jesus.Everyone know that
Moses managed to save the Israel from the Pharoah but Jesus which many
consider him God or Son of God or King can't himself from Jews and
Roman.So can we trust the story of Jesus in the bible?
Jesus was not being crucified, he is alive and he will be coming back
to be the King as what Muslim and some followers of Jesus believed
Read the Quran to know the true story about Jesus
Cheers
Good morning Arah;
| Quote: |
"arah" <arah1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:36aec1d3-3eaf-4ac4-af09-4c3537642fc0@p10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Menno van Barneveld.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a very simple questions.
If Jesus can't save himself from the Roman and can't save Jerusalem
how you are sure Jesus can save you? Where gone the comforter or the
holy spirit that suppose to advice and bring success to the Israel or
the Christians.
Good Luck
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are two answers to your question: Christian, and Muslim.
In the case of the former, Jesus said he could call down 10,000 angels
and bring everything to an abrupt halt. But, doing so was against his
Father's wishes so that he become the sacrificial lamb to both Jew and
Gentile beginning a new covenant.
In the case of the latter, Jesus did nothing to save himself as God
replaced him with a "twin" so he would not be crucified. Unfortunately, the
Qu'ran does not elaborate on why Jesus was going to be crucified in the
first place.
Cheers,
John
On Sep 15, 5:17 pm, "Menno van Barneveld" <g.van.barnev...@hccnet.nl
wrote:
Dear Ike,
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybo...@msn.com> schreef in
berichtnews:gaksah$3kk$1@registered.motzarella.org...
"Menno van Barneveld" <g.van.barnev...@hccnet.nl> wrote in message
news:48cd2b4e$0$742$3a628fcd@textreader.nntp.hccnet.nl...
[snip]
Here is my proof:
Daniel 9: 24-27: "Seventy year weeks are closed about your people and
about your sanctuary city, to restore the apostasy, to complete the
Fall,
to cover the sin, to have fetched ever lasting truth, to seal behold
and
preaching and to anoint a saint of the saints.
This all happened because of the life and death of Jesus Christ on earth.
After his ascending to heaven he was anointed in heaven as our king and
high
priest.
Prophecy was sealed, everlasting truth, the gospel was fetched, the Christ
had covered the sin by his death on the cross.
So do know and understand: From the going out of the command, to return
to rebuild Jerusalem, till an anointed duke, that are seven weeks,
and sixty-two weeks, in these the return will be rebuild, residences
and
graves, in the suppression of the times.
Ezra went to Jerusalem on 1 Nisan 3304 at the commant of king Kores.
(7 + 62) x 7 = 483, 3304 + 483 = 3787 which is 27 AD Gregorian calendar.
This is the start of the work of John the Baptist. Jesus started a year
later, 28 AD.
But after the sixty-two weeks an anointed will be ploughed under, and
nobody accompanies him,
This the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, while all his disciples had been
fled.
and the soldiers of a duke destroy the city and the temple, but he dies
in a flood,
The Roman soldiers destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. Pilate was taken
captive and brought to Rome but somewhere disappeared without known cause.
and at the end war, closed it is, unshakable,
The Roman Jewish war.
and he has supreme power of the many in the covenant, one week,
the week that Jesus was in Jerusalem, starting with Palmsunday. The ruling
class did not dare to do something against Jesus because of his many
followers. So he reigned as the king of Israel for one week and he could
say
to the Pharisees what ever he wanted.
and halfway through the week he ends victim and gift,
Jesus drove out of the temple all who sold and bought and he overturned
the
tables of the moneychangers and those who sold pigeons.
This was halfway through the yearweek. From this it must have been autumn
30
AD, the Sukkot.
This means also that Jesus Christ was crucified at Pesach spring 31 AD.
- so, on the wings of horror beings,
Just before the Roman Jewish war started the Romans placed the statue of
the
wargod on the wing of the altar.
so, until he has full ended, and the decided pours itself out over the
decider."
Jesus decided to be crucified to do the will of his Father against his own
will and so it happened.
The prophecy speaks about year weeks, to be interpreted as seven year
periods.
HORSESHIT!
Leveticus 25 ALONE declares THREE DIFFERENT USES of the term "weeks."
A "week" as seven days.
A "week" as seven years to make a Sabbatical cycle.
This shows up to be the right choice.
A "week" as seven x seven years plus 1 to make a Jubilee cycle.
And Jewish calendar science is based on 7 x 7 + 1 "weeks" of days to
make
a year, Sabbath rules and feast days not withstanding.
And SEVEN PROPHECIES speak of prophetic events IN TERMS OF SEVENTY
YEARS,
not "WEEKS."
Moreover, THAT'S WHERE DANIEL STARTED FROM--Jeremiah's prophecy of
SEVENTY
YEARS.
The end of this senventy years of Jeremia was the startingpoint of the
seventy year weeks period of Daniel.
So 70 year weeks take up a time span of 70 x 7 years = 490 years.
[snip]
WHICH WAS FULFILLED (once) IN THE EVENTS OF THE MACCABEAN REVOLT.
Antiochus Epiphanes was the FIGURE FOR ANTICHRIST.
Menelaus was the FIGURE FOR THE FALSE PROPHET.
Judas Maccabeus WAS THE FIGURE FOR THE MESSIAH.
AND IT WAS ALL DONE BETWEEN 167 AND 160 BC, COMPLETING DANIEL'S
PROPHECY...(once).
This cannot be the case because of the following:
In Daniel 8:14 is prophecied that the giving over of the host (temple) and
the continual burnt offerings (temple worshipping of God) will last 2300
evenings and mornings. This period is still lasting, for there are no
temple
and no continual burnt offerings. And the transgression that makes
desolate
(the endtime) must still take place.
Therefor Juda Maccabe could only be a for bode of the messiah, for he
restored the temple and temple service. The Roman soldiers destructed the
temple and stpped the templeservice completely. So 70 AD must be the start
of the 2300 period definitely.
Here's a hint for you, oh, clueless one.
DANIEL GAVE A PROPHETIC FORM IN THREE PARTS.
JESUS GAVE AN OUTLINE IN THREE PARTS.
JOHN INCLUDED A CHRONOLOGY IN THREE PARTS.
CONCLUSION: THE END OF THE AGE HAS THREE PARTS, AND THE FALSE TEACHERS
(such as yourself) CUT OFF THE FIRST TWO 'CAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE JESUS'
MESSAGE, which was CONSISTENTLY STATED as "BE THOU FAITHFUL, EVEN UNTO
DEATH...," NOT "I'll fly away."
Ike
Jesus Christ ascended to heaven where he still is. This also is prophecied
by Daniel. In chapter 7:
13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there
came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was
presented before him. 14 And to him was given dominion and glory and
kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his
dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his
kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
This after the destruction of the forth beast. So Jesus is still in
heaven.
He will return on the clouds of heaven when the earth is made desolate.
May Jesus Christ our lord be a lamp for your feet and a light on your
path.
Menno.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text - |
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