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 Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject: Investigating Virtue and Desire |
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Hello, everyone.
I am interested in the ideas of virtue and desire, and am curious to
hear what you think your faith tradition has to say about these ideas.
I'm trying to get the bird's-eye view, so it would be helpful to me if
you could summarize, limiting yourself to three paragraphs: a
paragraph about virtue, a paragraph about desire, and perhaps another
paragraph on how these ideas fit into the larger framework of your
tradition. I know you won't be able to say everything in three
paragraphs, but if you mention something in your summary that I find
intriguing, I promise I'll ask for details. =)
Thanks,
Matthew Lowe |
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Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Investigating Virtue and Desire |
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| Quote: | Thanks for reading, and looking forward to questions.
--Kent
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Thanks, Kent.
This is somewhat off topic, but it was brought up in one of the
sections you quoted: how much do you think the Baha'i Faith hinges on
the assumption that human beings have free will?
Matthew |
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Kent Johnson
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Investigating Virtue and Desire |
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Hi Matthew,
My faith tradition says that the fundamental purpose God has for us to exist
on this earth is to develop virtues and learn to resist the irrational
callings of desire. We are told that our purpose is to know and love God
and detach ourselves from all else. God is the source of all virtue, and
detachment from worldly desire is a first step toward Him.
A paragraph about virtue:
Briefly; the Blessed Perfection bore all these ordeals and calamities in
order that our hearts might become enkindled and radiant, our spirits be
glorified, our faults become virtues, our ignorance transformed into
knowledge; in order that we might attain the real fruits of humanity and
acquire heavenly graces; although pilgrims upon earth we should travel the
road of the heavenly kingdom; although needy and poor we might receive the
treasures of life eternal. For this has He borne these difficulties and
sorrows. (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 224)
More than a paragraph about desire:
The soil is inferior to the tree; the tree is nevertheless dependent upon it
for its existence. In spite of this dependence, the tree grows in the
opposite direction, away from the soil. As if disliking the soil, it raises
up its branches high towards the sky. This is similar to man and his state
of detachment from the material world when his soul aspires to spiritual
things and renounces earthly desires.
By growing upwards, away from the soil, the tree becomes the recipient of
the rays of the sun, the most precious thing in this physical world. As a
result of the outpouring of energies released by the sun, the tree becomes
verdant and produces beautiful blossoms and fruit. Of course, the growth of
the tree is involuntary. But let us suppose that it had a choice and,
because it loves the earth and is dependent on the soil, inclined its
branches downwards and buried itself in the ground. Then it could no longer
receive the rays of the sun; in the end, it would rot away.
The same principles apply to a human being who has to live in this world and
work to earn a living, and who depends upon material things for his
existence. God, however, has destined in His Covenant with man that the soul
of man should become detached from the things of this world and aspire
towards spiritual realms. But unlike the tree, which has no choice, man has
free will. If he chooses to disregard the provisions of the Covenant and to
fall in love with the world, its vanities and its material attractions, then
he becomes a bondslave of earthly things and his soul, deprived of the power
of faith, becomes impoverished.
On the other hand, when the individual aspires to spiritual things, turns to
the Manifestation of God, and does not direct all his affections towards
this mortal world, then his soul becomes illumined with the rays of the Sun
of Truth and will fulfil the purpose for which it has been created. The
above example showing the similarity between tree and man demonstrates that
the physical and the spiritual worlds of God are related to each other by
similar laws. It is therefore possible to discover some spiritual principles
by examining physical laws. Similarly, the basic laws and teachings of a
religion can be seen as the laws of nature in a higher realm. The difference
is that as the laws of a lower kingdom are applied to a higher kingdom,
certain features are added which are absent in the lower one. This fact was
noted in the above example; the added feature is that man exercises his free
will to decide his own destiny, while the tree grows involuntarily, the
element of choice being absent in the vegetable kingdom. (Adib Taherzadeh,
The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, p. 9)
Our faith tradition is insistent upon independent investigation of truth,
that each of us are responsible to find our own path to God using the
guidance we constantly receive from reading the Writings and our efforts on
behalf of our fellow humanity.
Thanks for reading, and looking forward to questions.
--Kent
<matthew.public.lowe@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:aoidnXQHltleo0janZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | Hello, everyone.
I am interested in the ideas of virtue and desire, and am curious to
hear what you think your faith tradition has to say about these ideas.
I'm trying to get the bird's-eye view, so it would be helpful to me if
you could summarize, limiting yourself to three paragraphs: a
paragraph about virtue, a paragraph about desire, and perhaps another
paragraph on how these ideas fit into the larger framework of your
tradition. I know you won't be able to say everything in three
paragraphs, but if you mention something in your summary that I find
intriguing, I promise I'll ask for details. =)
Thanks,
Matthew Lowe
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Investigating Virtue and Desire |
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joubin Houshyar" <Sun_of_27@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups:
soc.religion.bahai,soc.religion.christian,soc.religion.hindu,soc.religion.islam,soc.religion.mormon
To: <soc-religion-bahai@moderators.isc.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: Investigating Virtue and Desire
| Quote: | Salaam Matthew,
1:
Desire, timely and true, is a Virtue. & Virtue Is Desiring the
Timely_and_True.
2:
Desiring 'that_which_Is_not' is a deadly sin; know it as lust (which
is not True Desire).
3:
There IS only ONE; of that you should be certain. Knowing this, then,
Desire Union with The ONE with all your heart, all your might and all
your Being.
/& Salaam
On Mar 9, 4:18 pm, matthew.public.l...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello, everyone.
I am interested in the ideas of virtue and desire, and am curious to
hear what you think your faith tradition has to say about these ideas.
I'm trying to get the bird's-eye view, so it would be helpful to me if
you could summarize, limiting yourself to three paragraphs: a
paragraph about virtue, a paragraph about desire, and perhaps another
paragraph on how these ideas fit into the larger framework of your
tradition. I know you won't be able to say everything in three
paragraphs, but if you mention something in your summary that I find
intriguing, I promise I'll ask for details. =)
Thanks,
Matthew Lowe
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: Investigating Virtue and Desire |
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<matthew.public.lowe@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:S5Sdnb1067OYM0vanZ2dnUVZWhednZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | Thanks for reading, and looking forward to questions.
--Kent
Thanks, Kent.
This is somewhat off topic, but it was brought up in one of the
sections you quoted: how much do you think the Baha'i Faith hinges on
the assumption that human beings have free will?
Matthew
|
Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity,
tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident
and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of
man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such
as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these
are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for
he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he
is free, and he commits them according to his own will.
For example, if he wishes, he can pass his time in praising God, or he can
be occupied with other thoughts. He can be an enkindled light through the
fire of the love of God, and a philanthropist loving the world, or he can be
a hater of mankind, and engrossed with material things. He can be just or
cruel. These actions and these deeds are subject to the control of the will
of man himself; consequently, he is responsible for them.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 247)
Hi Matthew. Above was the short answer. An even shorter answer to your
question is "not very much".
Let me know if I can answer a slightly more specific question.
--Kent |
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:03 am Post subject: Re: Investigating Virtue and Desire |
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On Mar 11, 2008, at 10:07 AM, matthew.public.lowe@gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks for reading, and looking forward to questions.
--Kent
Thanks, Kent.
This is somewhat off topic, but it was brought up in one of the
sections you quoted: how much do you think the Baha'i Faith hinges on
the assumption that human beings have free will?
Matthew
|
Dear friend-
According to the Beloved Master the following quote seems to indicate
we are limited in our free will. I found similar information in a few
other quotes in the Writings too.
Answer.—This question is one of the most important and abstruse of
divine problems. If God wills, another day, at the beginning of dinner,
we will undertake the explanation of this subject in detail; now we
will explain it briefly, in a few words, as follows. Some things are
subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and
injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and
clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of
man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled,
such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and
misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not
responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the
choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them
according to his own will.
Some Answered Questions (73:2, page: [249])
I have been conducting rehab. classes with Inmates in the County Jail
here for the past seven years and I can attest to the fact that an
addict has virtually no free will. In that same Source, Some Answered
Questions you will find a chapter on Character in which the Master
explains that we have three characters, i.e. innate, inherent and
acquired. The innate is our animal nature whose instinctual knowing
helps it survive. The acquired is from our human nature's capacity to
make choices and the bad choices we make can corrupt or pervert the
innate and that weakness can be passed on to offspring in which they
inherent things. Once the body is perverted by these addictions it is
in complete control over the human being and at that condition he has
no morals or ethics and makes decisions based upon securing the
chemical he or she wants.
To restore this free will and volition to remedy the addictive behavior
is a long process requiring a holistic remedial process which most
people are not exposed to in our society. The addict must have a
scientific detox, proper holistic education of body, mind and spirit,
proper nutrition which can return the body to is more natural chemical
balance and positive support and aftercare process.
regards,
doug |
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:03 am Post subject: Re: Investigating Virtue and Desire |
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On Mar 9, 2008, at 4:18 PM, matthew.public.lowe@gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | Hello, everyone.
I am interested in the ideas of virtue and desire, and am curious to
hear what you think your faith tradition has to say about these ideas.
I'm trying to get the bird's-eye view, so it would be helpful to me if
you could summarize, limiting yourself to three paragraphs: a
paragraph about virtue, a paragraph about desire, and perhaps another
paragraph on how these ideas fit into the larger framework of your
tradition. I know you won't be able to say everything in three
paragraphs, but if you mention something in your summary that I find
intriguing, I promise I'll ask for details. =)
Thanks,
Matthew Lowe
|
Dear friend-
In Paris Talks the Beloved Master said the following:
“What is the purpose of our lives?...To acquire virtues.” PT p.177
We Baha'is often speak of the purpose of life is to know and worship
God, to create and maintain love and unity in the world, to create an
ever-advancing civilization. However these lofty goals are possible
only when we acquire virtues and thus to me it is important we acquire
virtues in our daily living.
Desire is something that we can misuse by not having proper education
and acquisition of virtues. We might desire things that are harmful to
us and which will impede our spiritual progress, or we may desire those
things that are of the utmost benefit to our bodies, minds and spirits.
In our Writings there is implied an application technique enabling us
to highlight our human faults and thus enable us to call forth and
apply the absent virtues. This process also enables us to receive the
necessary divine assistance to accomplish this goal.
regards,
doug
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