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Crowlie
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 Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: Re: Gods and Goddesses |
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Néo wrote:
| Quote: | Néo a écrit :
Crowlie a écrit :
Hi all,
Reading through some of the links I've been very kindly given. I must
say I'm impressed with the Saxon/Norse pantheon. What is it with all
these cross-dressing gods???? Just quietly it's a bit of a turn on LOL
Maybe not the best reason to convert....
Lis
Hi,
I'm also interested in the IE pantheons, something
which I gradually felt the need to do after having
started a neo-shamanic path and having had a few
glimpses of the World Above. Up to now, I mostly
studied the Ancient Greek one, and more recently,
I have been paying more and more attention to the
Norse one - as time permits.
It's not the first time I'm hearing something about
cross-dressing, but I failed to identify that to some
specific Norse deities. Could you be more specific?
Thanks in advance!
I guess you probably meant Loki... I'll let seasoned
Asatruars answer it in more detail, but he's got a
very bad (deserved) reputation and it's unlikely that
he was ever worshipped. The trickster side looks to
me as being more important than the cross-dressing
aspect. Also, shape-shifting is not specific to some
Deities.
|
Hi Neo,
Just found another really interesting reference to sexuality...
http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/odin.htm
About Odin's connection...
It started as a curiosity, but yanno, I think it's a really good thing
to give people permission culturally to explore stuff like this so that
they know what they're about, rather than having to repress suspicions.
Wassail, Lis |
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Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Gods and Goddesses |
|
|
Crowlie wrote:
| Quote: | Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
Néo wrote:
Crowlie a écrit :
Jack Slutmuffin wrote:
On Oct 30, 2:51 pm, Néo <n...@adresski.ru> wrote:
Néo a écrit :
[...]
i take offense to that! on guard!
www.godchecker.com
What's offensive?
I can't tell, but it looks like it was said with some
sense of humor and a pinch of salt anyway.
That Loki's reputation might seem all bad? That certainly isn't my
reading of him.
Lis
Well, he's a cold-blood murderer...
Thor doesn't look too good kicking that dwarf into the funeral pyre of
Baldr fire because he was annoyed.
As for Odin...
Of course, that would be a literalist interpretation.
FFF
Dirk
There seem to be some issues interpreting Loki... A lot of people seem
to think it's because of the influence of the ideas of Satan and evil in
christendom... the polar blackness. In the stories of Loki, however, he
brings trouble but it somehow always turns out for the benefit of gods
or people.
Elaine Pagels did some studies on the original view of Satan as the
adversary. A spirit who could stop you in your tracks with a situation
or question that would provoke some discovery or new wisdom in your
life. Troubling perhaps, but better than remaining ignorant and
undeveloped.
I see Loki's hand in my life in a number of situations. My journey has
been particularly horrible in some places, but jeez I've learnt a lot! I
may now be condemned to sit on the fringes and think unorthodox
thoughts, but it's worth the trouble of having hung on the world tree so
to speak.
http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/loki.htm
|
Interesting.
One of the interpretations of Loki is as a metaphor for the subconscious
mind - full of seeming chaos from its multiple sub-personalities,
creative, undisciplined and emotionally driven, right brain. By
deliberately following such a path a person risks falling apart mentally
and spiritually - becoming legion. They (by definition) lack "integrity".
FFF
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress/?cat=5 - Our podcasts on weird stuff |
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Crowlie
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Gods and Goddesses |
|
|
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
| Quote: | Crowlie wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
Néo wrote:
Crowlie a écrit :
Jack Slutmuffin wrote:
On Oct 30, 2:51 pm, Néo <n...@adresski.ru> wrote:
Néo a écrit :
[...]
i take offense to that! on guard!
www.godchecker.com
What's offensive?
I can't tell, but it looks like it was said with some
sense of humor and a pinch of salt anyway.
That Loki's reputation might seem all bad? That certainly isn't my
reading of him.
Lis
Well, he's a cold-blood murderer...
Thor doesn't look too good kicking that dwarf into the funeral pyre
of Baldr fire because he was annoyed.
As for Odin...
Of course, that would be a literalist interpretation.
FFF
Dirk
There seem to be some issues interpreting Loki... A lot of people seem
to think it's because of the influence of the ideas of Satan and evil
in christendom... the polar blackness. In the stories of Loki,
however, he brings trouble but it somehow always turns out for the
benefit of gods or people.
Elaine Pagels did some studies on the original view of Satan as the
adversary. A spirit who could stop you in your tracks with a situation
or question that would provoke some discovery or new wisdom in your
life. Troubling perhaps, but better than remaining ignorant and
undeveloped.
I see Loki's hand in my life in a number of situations. My journey has
been particularly horrible in some places, but jeez I've learnt a lot!
I may now be condemned to sit on the fringes and think unorthodox
thoughts, but it's worth the trouble of having hung on the world tree
so to speak.
http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/loki.htm
Interesting.
One of the interpretations of Loki is as a metaphor for the subconscious
mind - full of seeming chaos from its multiple sub-personalities,
creative, undisciplined and emotionally driven, right brain. By
deliberately following such a path a person risks falling apart mentally
and spiritually - becoming legion. They (by definition) lack "integrity".
|
Heh, well considering what I'm reading about Odinsmen presently that
path doesn't sound any better!
Lis |
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Heidi Graw
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Gods and Goddesses |
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| Quote: | "Crowlie" <tjurri@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:E7OOk.10033$sc2.9642@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
|
(Snip)
| Quote: | http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/loki.htm
Wassail, Lis
|
Hi Lis,
From the link you posted:
"Because there were no ancient rites for Loki there are no traditional
modern practices."
I disagree. I think there is a practise which has been carried forward for
centuries and
well into the presen. The meaning of it, however, has long since been lost.
Think of Loki's humorous antic as he tied his balls up with a goat's beard.
Think: Jingle bells. Two gold bells tied together with a ribbon. These
are
very common Yuletide decorations. ;-)
Take care,
Heidi |
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Néo
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Gods and Goddesses |
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|
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax a écrit :
| Quote: | Néo wrote:
Crowlie a écrit :
Jack Slutmuffin wrote:
On Oct 30, 2:51 pm, Néo <n...@adresski.ru> wrote:
Néo a écrit :
Crowlie a écrit :
Hi all,
Reading through some of the links I've been very kindly given. I
must
say I'm impressed with the Saxon/Norse pantheon. What is it with all
these cross-dressing gods???? Just quietly it's a bit of a turn
on LOL
Maybe not the best reason to convert....
Lis
Hi,
I'm also interested in the IE pantheons, something
which I gradually felt the need to do after having
started a neo-shamanic path and having had a few
glimpses of the World Above. Up to now, I mostly
studied the Ancient Greek one, and more recently,
I have been paying more and more attention to the
Norse one - as time permits.
It's not the first time I'm hearing something about
cross-dressing, but I failed to identify that to some
specific Norse deities. Could you be more specific?
Thanks in advance!
I guess you probably meant Loki... I'll let seasoned
Asatruars answer it in more detail, but he's got a
very bad (deserved) reputation and it's unlikely that
he was ever worshipped. The trickster side looks to
me as being more important than the cross-dressing
aspect. Also, shape-shifting is not specific to some
Deities.
--
Néo- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
i take offense to that! on guard!
www.godchecker.com
What's offensive?
I can't tell, but it looks like it was said with some
sense of humor and a pinch of salt anyway.
That Loki's reputation might seem all bad? That certainly isn't my
reading of him.
Lis
Well, he's a cold-blood murderer...
Thor doesn't look too good kicking that dwarf into the funeral pyre of
Baldr fire because he was annoyed.
As for Odin...
Of course, that would be a literalist interpretation.
FFF
Dirk
|
Does the dwarf's story tell that he was burned to
death due to this, like an ordinary human being
would have been in such a situation (understood
litterally), or was this "merely" a very rude
behavior (but without deadly consequences) because
Thor was really pissed then?
From my understanding and the limited successful
communication attempts that I experienced so far
with them, "elemental" beings like dwarves do not
belong to our plane of reality (the Middle World),
even though they can interact with us.
Just asking...
--
Néo |
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Néo
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: Gods and Goddesses |
|
|
Crowlie a écrit :
| Quote: | Néo wrote:
Néo a écrit :
Crowlie a écrit :
Hi all,
Reading through some of the links I've been very kindly given. I
must say I'm impressed with the Saxon/Norse pantheon. What is it
with all these cross-dressing gods???? Just quietly it's a bit of a
turn on LOL
Maybe not the best reason to convert....
Lis
Hi,
I'm also interested in the IE pantheons, something
which I gradually felt the need to do after having
started a neo-shamanic path and having had a few
glimpses of the World Above. Up to now, I mostly
studied the Ancient Greek one, and more recently,
I have been paying more and more attention to the
Norse one - as time permits.
It's not the first time I'm hearing something about
cross-dressing, but I failed to identify that to some
specific Norse deities. Could you be more specific?
Thanks in advance!
I guess you probably meant Loki... I'll let seasoned
Asatruars answer it in more detail, but he's got a
very bad (deserved) reputation and it's unlikely that
he was ever worshipped. The trickster side looks to
me as being more important than the cross-dressing
aspect. Also, shape-shifting is not specific to some
Deities.
Hi Neo,
Just found another really interesting reference to sexuality...
http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/odin.htm
|
Interesting stuff. I'll take the time to study it more
in-depth...
| Quote: | About Odin's connection...
It started as a curiosity, but yanno, I think it's a really good thing
to give people permission culturally to explore stuff like this so that
they know what they're about, rather than having to repress suspicions.
Wassail, Lis
|
As I briefly explained, I have begun to study Norse lore
after having started a neo-shamanic type path, and to put
it briefly, I was taught a few things by some beings from
the Upper World, some of which let me gradually figure out,
quite later on, that they most probably were IE Deities.
So this sort of forced me to study IE mythologies, first
Ancient Greek ones (the archaic versions of it being far
more relevant to me), then later on, also Norse ones...
Some of these experiences do relate to sacred sexuality
as well as gender switching (maybe this is what you meant
by using the term cross-dressing). So basically, what you
first wrote here did ring a bell, for sure.
--
Néo |
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| Back to top |
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject: Re: Gods and Goddesses |
|
|
Crowlie wrote:
| Quote: | Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
Crowlie wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
Néo wrote:
Crowlie a écrit :
Jack Slutmuffin wrote:
On Oct 30, 2:51 pm, Néo <n...@adresski.ru> wrote:
Néo a écrit :
[...]
i take offense to that! on guard!
www.godchecker.com
What's offensive?
I can't tell, but it looks like it was said with some
sense of humor and a pinch of salt anyway.
That Loki's reputation might seem all bad? That certainly isn't my
reading of him.
Lis
Well, he's a cold-blood murderer...
Thor doesn't look too good kicking that dwarf into the funeral pyre
of Baldr fire because he was annoyed.
As for Odin...
Of course, that would be a literalist interpretation.
FFF
Dirk
There seem to be some issues interpreting Loki... A lot of people
seem to think it's because of the influence of the ideas of Satan and
evil in christendom... the polar blackness. In the stories of Loki,
however, he brings trouble but it somehow always turns out for the
benefit of gods or people.
Elaine Pagels did some studies on the original view of Satan as the
adversary. A spirit who could stop you in your tracks with a
situation or question that would provoke some discovery or new wisdom
in your life. Troubling perhaps, but better than remaining ignorant
and undeveloped.
I see Loki's hand in my life in a number of situations. My journey
has been particularly horrible in some places, but jeez I've learnt a
lot! I may now be condemned to sit on the fringes and think
unorthodox thoughts, but it's worth the trouble of having hung on the
world tree so to speak.
http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/loki.htm
Interesting.
One of the interpretations of Loki is as a metaphor for the
subconscious mind - full of seeming chaos from its multiple
sub-personalities, creative, undisciplined and emotionally driven,
right brain. By deliberately following such a path a person risks
falling apart mentally and spiritually - becoming legion. They (by
definition) lack "integrity".
Heh, well considering what I'm reading about Odinsmen presently that
path doesn't sound any better!
|
The difference is discipline and foresight. Odin tends to act far less
capriciously, even though it may seem to.
FFF
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress/?cat=5 - Our podcasts on weird stuff |
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| Back to top |
Néo
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:01 am Post subject: Re: Gods and Goddesses |
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Néo a écrit :
| Quote: | Crowlie a écrit :
(...)
Hi Neo,
Just found another really interesting reference to sexuality...
http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/odin.htm
Interesting stuff. I'll take the time to study it more
in-depth...
|
It seems this Web site mostly deals with Loki and Odin.
From my personal experience, I can tell mostly nothing
about the first one - even though I'd say I'm wary about
him... One person which I happened to meet IRL some time
ago happens to be the bearer of the soul of Fenris the
wolf, one of Loki's children. In this very case, the bad
reputation of the beast was really fully deserved - I'm
talking about a cold-blooded murderer. I'm not implying
that one may not be able to learn from Loki... I'm only
saying that my subjective feeling is, I'd rather refrain
from dealing with him all the more since there are other
Deities which may provide guidance, teaching, protection
and help along the way. YMMV.
I have had quite a few glimpses from Odin. Briefly put,
the ones from which I have been taught the most, among
the ones mentioned in the Norse pantheon, are Freyja,
Frigg, Odin and Bragi.
One idea expressed in this site which I found especially
interesting and very much in line with what I learned and
experienced so far is:
"And additionally, each of these relationships [between
Odin and one of his spouses] produces something integral
to Odin and his plans, anything from children that can
fulfill certain roles to the wisest of counsel."
| Quote: | About Odin's connection...
It started as a curiosity, but yanno, I think it's a really good thing
to give people permission culturally to explore stuff like this so
that they know what they're about, rather than having to repress
suspicions.
Wassail, Lis
As I briefly explained, I have begun to study Norse lore
after having started a neo-shamanic type path, and to put
it briefly, I was taught a few things by some beings from
the Upper World, some of which let me gradually figure out,
quite later on, that they most probably were IE Deities.
So this sort of forced me to study IE mythologies, first
Ancient Greek ones (the archaic versions of it being far
more relevant to me), then later on, also Norse ones...
Some of these experiences do relate to sacred sexuality
as well as gender switching (maybe this is what you meant
by using the term cross-dressing). So basically, what you
first wrote here did ring a bell, for sure.
|
Quoting this uppsalaonline.com site again, and adding
alt.religion.shamanism:
"Seidh practice may have involved various cross-gendered
practices, such as cross-dressing or passive homosexuality.
(This is not a certain thing. There are arguments both ways
about it. But male seidh practitioners were often referred
to as seidhberendur, and berendur was a coarse term in Old
Norse for female genitalia, and was used to refer to
homosexual men, amongst other things.) Thus Odin can also
be seen as god of the transgendered of various kinds."
This could be seen as linked to the topic of two-spirit
shamans. I don't know about the Asatru stance on this.
It's a topic of interest to me since quite some time.
Unfortunately, from what I could check on the archives,
it was never mentioned on alt.religion.shamanism. Well,
now it's done.
--
Néo |
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Crowlie
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Gods and Goddesses |
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|
Heidi Graw wrote:
| Quote: |
"Crowlie" <tjurri@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:E7OOk.10033$sc2.9642@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
(Snip)
http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/loki.htm
Wassail, Lis
Hi Lis,
From the link you posted:
"Because there were no ancient rites for Loki there are no traditional
modern practices."
I disagree. I think there is a practise which has been carried forward
for centuries and
well into the presen. The meaning of it, however, has long since been
lost.
Think of Loki's humorous antic as he tied his balls up with a goat's beard.
Think: Jingle bells. Two gold bells tied together with a ribbon.
These are
very common Yuletide decorations. ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
|
Seriously?! That's really funny. Almost as funny as watching christians
tell their kids to make a wish when they blow out birthday candles.
BTW, since you seem to be a woman in Asatru, do you know of any
particular rites or rituals associated with Frigga or Freya?
Wassail, Lis |
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| Back to top |
Crowlie
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Gods and Goddesses |
|
|
Néo wrote:
| Quote: | Néo a écrit :
Crowlie a écrit :
(...)
Hi Neo,
Just found another really interesting reference to sexuality...
http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/odin.htm
Interesting stuff. I'll take the time to study it more
in-depth...
It seems this Web site mostly deals with Loki and Odin.
From my personal experience, I can tell mostly nothing
about the first one - even though I'd say I'm wary about
him... One person which I happened to meet IRL some time
ago happens to be the bearer of the soul of Fenris the
wolf, one of Loki's children. In this very case, the bad
reputation of the beast was really fully deserved - I'm
talking about a cold-blooded murderer. I'm not implying
that one may not be able to learn from Loki... I'm only
saying that my subjective feeling is, I'd rather refrain
from dealing with him all the more since there are other
Deities which may provide guidance, teaching, protection
and help along the way. YMMV.
|
Yeah, the guy who wrote most of the stuff on Uppsala is heavily into
Odin. His story of his experiences of the path have actually made me
much more wary of Odin that of Loki! Odin once killed a heap of
peasants, real people, in order to transform and move between the
realms. Not to mention that his most common reward for warriors who
serve him is betrayal and bloody death in battle... though the
individuals involved may be predisposed to such a thing in any case.
Thor seems a more reliable provider of protection, but without the
connection to runes, wisdom or magic that Odin is famous for.
| Quote: | I have had quite a few glimpses from Odin. Briefly put,
the ones from which I have been taught the most, among
the ones mentioned in the Norse pantheon, are Freyja,
Frigg, Odin and Bragi.
|
It's a real shame there isn't more around about the Goddesses.
Particularly Freya, who initiated Odin into the ways of wisdom... Since
I'm also more into the magic and mysticism of the path it would interest
me. I don't want to be seeking wisdom and wind up devoted to a bloody
minded God of war.
| Quote: | One idea expressed in this site which I found especially
interesting and very much in line with what I learned and
experienced so far is:
"And additionally, each of these relationships [between
Odin and one of his spouses] produces something integral
to Odin and his plans, anything from children that can
fulfill certain roles to the wisest of counsel."
About Odin's connection...
It started as a curiosity, but yanno, I think it's a really good
thing to give people permission culturally to explore stuff like this
so that they know what they're about, rather than having to repress
suspicions.
Wassail, Lis
As I briefly explained, I have begun to study Norse lore
after having started a neo-shamanic type path, and to put
it briefly, I was taught a few things by some beings from
the Upper World, some of which let me gradually figure out,
quite later on, that they most probably were IE Deities.
So this sort of forced me to study IE mythologies, first
Ancient Greek ones (the archaic versions of it being far
more relevant to me), then later on, also Norse ones...
Some of these experiences do relate to sacred sexuality
as well as gender switching (maybe this is what you meant
by using the term cross-dressing). So basically, what you
first wrote here did ring a bell, for sure.
Quoting this uppsalaonline.com site again, and adding
alt.religion.shamanism:
"Seidh practice may have involved various cross-gendered
practices, such as cross-dressing or passive homosexuality.
(This is not a certain thing. There are arguments both ways
about it. But male seidh practitioners were often referred
to as seidhberendur, and berendur was a coarse term in Old
Norse for female genitalia, and was used to refer to
homosexual men, amongst other things.) Thus Odin can also
be seen as god of the transgendered of various kinds."
|
Which is interesting that even though it was a derogatory term creates
cultural space or even (possibly) permissions for trans-gendered and
homosexual people to have a practical place within the community as
practitioners of magic or other artistic gifts.
| Quote: | This could be seen as linked to the topic of two-spirit
shamans. I don't know about the Asatru stance on this.
It's a topic of interest to me since quite some time.
|
You might find you get as many different opinions as people you talk to...
| Quote: | Unfortunately, from what I could check on the archives,
it was never mentioned on alt.religion.shamanism. Well,
now it's done.
|
Would be interesting to know from current Shamanic pratitioners what
they experience the link to be. Might explain a few things for me
myself. My familiar spirit is male.
So many questions!
Wassail, Lis |
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Doug Freyburger
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Gods and Goddesses |
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Néo <n...@adresski.ru> wrote:
| Quote: |
I have had quite a few glimpses from Odin ...
|
I've had one dramatic one. He showed up and told me to
follow. No details, no explanation. After considerable
pondering I decided most of the ancients followed the
pantheon as a whole not one specific patron so that's
what I've done in Asatru. The Wanderer is quite welcome
to show up any time and give more details. So far, no
corrections. I've had contacts since with various others
in the pantheon ranging from life changing through brief
feelings of fellowship.
On Loki - It's common for newbies to Asatru to think of him
as an enemy. It's an easy transition from the Christian view
of a Devil or any view of hostile spirits. The problem with the
view is it ignores that Asatru does have a main enemy - Surt.
It is Surt's team who eventually face the Aesir at Ragnarok
and it is Surt's team who Odin works constantly on to delay
the battle to change its outcome. In these efforts sometimes
Odin works with Loki. Loki is of ambiguous allegiance and
of apparently changing alliegiance but he's definately not an
implacable enemy. He's not to be invited and maybe not to
be respected, but viewing him as an enemy or the enemy
misses one of the most important lessons in all of the Asatru
lore. Asatru oldbies might be anywhere from Loki hostile to
Loki friendly, but they will have learned that he isn't *the*
enemy. Surt's *the* enemy.
Loki is the high risk high gain guy. His risky exploits got
the greatest tresures of the Aesir from Mjollnir on. Low risk,
low gain. Of all the Aesir the next highest risk is Odin.
| Quote: | Some of these experiences do relate to sacred sexuality
as well as gender switching (maybe this is what you meant
by using the term cross-dressing). So basically, what you
first wrote here did ring a bell, for sure.
Quoting this uppsalaonline.com site again, and adding
alt.religion.shamanism:
"Seidh practice may have involved various cross-gendered
practices, such as cross-dressing or passive homosexuality.
(This is not a certain thing. There are arguments both ways
about it. But male seidh practitioners were often referred
to as seidhberendur, and berendur was a coarse term in Old
Norse for female genitalia, and was used to refer to
homosexual men, amongst other things.) Thus Odin can also
be seen as god of the transgendered of various kinds."
This could be seen as linked to the topic of two-spirit
shamans. I don't know about the Asatru stance on this.
It's a topic of interest to me since quite some time.
|
I've watched and read and asked around in Asatru about that
topic for going on two decades at this point and I don't think a
concensus on that question is anywhere on the horizon. So
I'll offer my symbolic take on it in the hopes that some with
more or more recent experiences and study on the topic
might offer better -
Doug's background assumptions -
I think the true in the lore is more symbolic and poetic than
literal. I think the nature of the dieties is they are spirits with
no mater in their natural forms. Maybe they can assume
physical bodies maybe not.
Doug's thesis on cross dressing topics in Asatru lore -
So what does gender mean for a being without a body?
There's more to it than the DNA and proteins that make up
the genetic part they don't have in their natural forms. Taking
it symbolically it brings up archetypes of passive and
aggressive, accepting and penetrating, nurturing and controlling
as well as many other pairings that get to be part of gender
roles in poetry and symbolism. The fruit and the tree, plants
can be both without symbolic complexities.
Seidhr is Asatru trancework. As such it's a Shamanic
tradition (or more accurately the memory of a tradition with
folks trying to rebuild it). Trancework often involves contact
with the spirits. It's the tie-in between ARA and ARS in this
thread. In a trance a spirit can come forward in a person.
It's called be ridden, being posessed and so on. It is
symbolically the passive, accepting, nurturing flower part of
the gender divide. This is why I take terms like cross dressing
and passive homosexuality on this topic to be poetic or
symbolic expressions of a spirit coming into a person. I do
not take them as literal and as usual I think folks who try to
find literal depictions for everything in lore lose most of its
meaning.
Loki as a diety generally depicted as masculine yet he had
children with many amazing traits. Slieppnir is the fastest
of horses and able to run from world to world including go
back and forth to/from the world of the dead. Jormundr is
the world worm who at once holds the planet together and
also gradually churns it and eats it. Hella is the queen of the
world of the dead from which souls are drawn for reincarnation
and from which souls will colonize the next cycle of the
universe after Ragnarok (my view of Hella is not popular but
see how it fits the symbolism). These children are spirits
that he nurtured, that he conceived, but that he did not
supply the inspirational seed. Various other ettins/giants
supplied the inspiration to him for them. Viewed this way it's
a wonderful view of how inspiration can be nurtured into
living spirits. Viewed as needing those inspirations in the
first place would only be viewed as effeminate after most of the
symbolic meaning got lost and folks started to discuss the
terms as if they were meant literally.
Loki's children are the holders of the living and the dead as
well as the transportation between those two realms. In the
first two cases the aspects have as much horror (earthquakes,
refusing to return Balder) as good ones (holding in the land,
supplying souls for rebirth into this world and the next). For
a culture who sees horses as pets and sports figures it would
be easy to only see the peaceful aspects of Sleippnir (fast
enough to run world to world) but the ancients lived in a time
when the heavy cavaly was the most effective military force
available (heavy war horses like Sleippnir were the armored
and mechanized corps of those times).
Hail Asgard!
Doug Freyburger |
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Doug Freyburger
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Gods and Goddesses |
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Néo <ze_...@rocketship.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
I think I remember reading on alt.religion.asatru that
there once was, in Iceland, a group of male practicioners
of seidhr, who were eventually all killed because the king
had decided that he did not like the idea.
|
The large temple at Uppsalla was in Sweden. I don't know
that they were all wiped out at once, but the tmeple was
destroyed during the conversion era.
Bias against working with spirits is part of the JCI tradition. |
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Doug Freyburger
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Gods and Goddesses |
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Néo <n...@adresski.ru> wrote:
| Quote: | Doug Freyburger a écrit :
Néo <n...@adresski.ru> wrote:
I have had quite a few glimpses from Odin ...
I've had one dramatic one. He showed up and told me to
follow. No details, no explanation. After considerable
pondering I decided most of the ancients followed the
pantheon as a whole not one specific patron so that's
what I've done in Asatru. The Wanderer is quite welcome
to show up any time and give more details ...
OK... so if I got you well, you sort of followed his demand,
but in the way you felt was the safest, and he seemed to be
happy with it.
|
In the most traditional way. I'm not sure how safety factors
into it as the safest path would have been to decide the
experience had been made up. It's easy to get the order to
follow and to follow the one giving the order. I know several
Asatruar who have done exactly that and they are happy with
their decisions. I wanted to do my homework more than that
and try to figure out what was meant as best I could. I took
best to mean most in line with what ancient traditions I could
find.
| Quote: | To my knowledge, they are also perfectly able to become
incarnate here on Earth, if need be, and it could happen
rather more often than one may think. Among the ones
known in the Norse pantheon, so far, I could identify a
few who are most probably presently incarnated here on
Earth.
|
There are plenty of legends of spirits taking on human bodies.
I don't know how much those legends are based on wishful
thinking. My own example appears to be wishful thinking -
One time I was on a bus riding home from work and another
passenger said his name was Thor. He chatted with me and
others in English with a slight accent I couldn't place. He
chatted with the Spanish speaking folks also with an accent
I couldn't place. He chatted with the Armenian speaking
folks but I don't know that tongue well enough to know accents.
In all three languages he was able to tell jokes easily and that
says he was extremely fluent in all three languages. At one
point he exitted the bus and vanished into the crowd. Was
he just a normal human who happened to have a name I held
important? Almost cetainly but it's one of those experiences
that makes me go HMMM. I can see how retelling it across
generations might turn into a diety expressing as a human.
| Quote: | Being possessed by a divine spirit is a true spiritual
experience and happens within a shamanic framework, but
it's (by far) not the only type of interaction observed.
I agree with your point here, I only want to avoid
restricting our present framework.
|
Dealing with spirits is not the only form of trancework either.
I managed to get upper division college credit doing Hindu
meditation (very nice course) and very little of it involved
contact with spirits.
| Quote: | As some (at least Greek for instance) IE legends clearly
show, from time to time, some Deities clearly express a
wish for sensual interaction with presently incarnated
human beings, including homosexual relationships. I have
heard about several such situations in which things did
happen astrally. One important thing here is that these
experiences possess many initiatory aspects. I could even
say that I was surprised when I realized to which extent
the archaic Greek myths that reached us described things
that actually do happen.
|
That's a new perspective for me to ponder on. Thanks.
| Quote: | Well, another specific aspect of a shaman's work is about
shapeshifting. I'm not trying to oppose POVs here, only to
suggest there are many levels of understanding, all equally
valid, and each applying to a specific range of situations.
|
Shape shifting can be symbolic in many ways including
gender. The relationship between spirit totem animals and
werewolf/bear-shirt traditions was a topic of interest for me
for several years. What parts meaning what, how many
layers of meaning ... |
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Néo
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Gods and Goddesses |
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Hi Lis,
Crowlie a écrit :
| Quote: | Néo wrote:
Néo a écrit :
Crowlie a écrit :
(...)
Hi Neo,
Just found another really interesting reference to sexuality...
http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/odin.htm
Interesting stuff. I'll take the time to study it more
in-depth...
It seems this Web site mostly deals with Loki and Odin.
From my personal experience, I can tell mostly nothing
about the first one - even though I'd say I'm wary about
him... One person which I happened to meet IRL some time
ago happens to be the bearer of the soul of Fenris the
wolf, one of Loki's children. In this very case, the bad
reputation of the beast was really fully deserved - I'm
talking about a cold-blooded murderer. I'm not implying
that one may not be able to learn from Loki... I'm only
saying that my subjective feeling is, I'd rather refrain
from dealing with him all the more since there are other
Deities which may provide guidance, teaching, protection
and help along the way. YMMV.
Yeah, the guy who wrote most of the stuff on Uppsala is heavily into
Odin. His story of his experiences of the path have actually made me
much more wary of Odin that of Loki! Odin once killed a heap of
peasants, real people, in order to transform and move between the
realms. Not to mention that his most common reward for warriors who
serve him is betrayal and bloody death in battle... though the
individuals involved may be predisposed to such a thing in any case.
Thor seems a more reliable provider of protection, but without the
connection to runes, wisdom or magic that Odin is famous for.
|
Well, I think those issues basically revolve around a
very broad question of ethics (as opposed to morality).
I consider the latter as something related to religions,
especially the dogmatic ones, as well as society-level
concepts (as opposed to spiritual ethics) like what may
be found in confucianism, various shades of humanist
approaches, etc.
I think anybody who ever dealt with some genuine kind of
spiritual guidance will promptly (often abruptly, I mean,
like if it was some sort of trade mark for Up Above) come
to the conclusion that the ethics in the spiritual world
can not, and should not, be distorted into concepts that
belong to the Middle World, the human sphere. I think it
may be one of the very first lessons taught to beginners.
From my experience, they Up Above know very well how to
use (and like using) seemingly stunning (shocking) ways,
but (as I figured it out some time later when discussing
it in-depth with fellow shamans) apart from making it
very clear that they don't intend to abide by human level
concepts of morality, it looks like they in fact only care
about the end result. And it seems to me that the ethics
involved can only be properly assessed when keeping this
end result in mind. I've been the involuntary recipient
of quite a few "tricks" played, but to be honest - fair,
I had to assess them in terms of end results in order to
be able to make up my mind about them.
So... I hope this little digression will help me put
things in perspective according to my subjective POV. I
never believed, nor intended to convey the fluffy-bunny
type idea that everything is rosy up above. Quite the
contrary... but this does not imply that when they use
brute force, they do it without any ethics whatsoever.
| Quote: | I have had quite a few glimpses from Odin. Briefly put,
the ones from which I have been taught the most, among
the ones mentioned in the Norse pantheon, are Freyja,
Frigg, Odin and Bragi.
It's a real shame there isn't more around about the Goddesses.
Particularly Freya, who initiated Odin into the ways of wisdom... Since
I'm also more into the magic and mysticism of the path it would interest
me. I don't want to be seeking wisdom and wind up devoted to a bloody
minded God of war.
|
As should be obvious from my words, I believe that the
journey, the spiritual gems brought back, are worth the
dangers, the pitfalls, the incredible efforts and, well,
sometimes even the pain. I'd tend to see the spiritual
realms as an ecosystem where the first common sense rule
would be that one should know better than attempting to
make one's way through brute force. The way you put it
seems to indicate you fully grasped those basics.
On top of that, the journey of each single given person
will have its own specific features and issues. Lastly,
I'm not sure the [Norse] Deities can be aptly put into
little boxes, like more or less "bloody"... I'd suggest
to try to look at things according to a holistic approach
(relevant to a given context, as opposed to theoretical,
"once and for all"). So I'd rather consider your words as
telling you favour a, well, let's say a careful approach
(which looks sound).
I mean, for instance in the case of Freya (and the Gods
know how I could be considered as heavily biased - that
is, in a positive way - as far as she's concerned), I
well know that until one has actually begun to interact
with her, it's difficult to realize to which extent she
can be uncompromising (therefore also tough and harsh at
times).
| Quote: | (... snip ...)
Quoting this uppsalaonline.com site again, and adding
alt.religion.shamanism:
"Seidh practice may have involved various cross-gendered
practices, such as cross-dressing or passive homosexuality.
(This is not a certain thing. There are arguments both ways
about it. But male seidh practitioners were often referred
to as seidhberendur, and berendur was a coarse term in Old
Norse for female genitalia, and was used to refer to
homosexual men, amongst other things.) Thus Odin can also
be seen as god of the transgendered of various kinds."
Which is interesting that even though it was a derogatory term creates
cultural space or even (possibly) permissions for trans-gendered and
homosexual people to have a practical place within the community as
practitioners of magic or other artistic gifts.
|
People more versed in the study of Norse lore texts could
probably answer more in detail to this, but I came to
think that in ancient times (this has also been noted for
other IE cultures), it's not the homosexuality in itself
that was the biggest issue, but the way it could in turn
trigger behaviours that were not considered as adequate,
socially speaking, for the gender considered.
I think I remember reading on alt.religion.asatru that
there once was, in Iceland, a group of male practicioners
of seidhr, who were eventually all killed because the king
had decided that he did not like the idea.
The very evolution within IE societies brought forth by
the course of time as well as the present day's ability
to learn about the features of many different societies
tells that discriminations based on gender or sexual
orientation are, unfortunately, found in many cultures.
The very fact that this topic never showed up on ars to
date could also be telling - it's not because nobody ever
was concerned, for I happen to know that it's not true.
I see this as a shame for several reasons, including
because I feel that the two-spirit concept seems to be
able to bring a much needed light on subjects that range
beyond the concept of homosexuality, strictly speaking.
| Quote: | This could be seen as linked to the topic of two-spirit
shamans. I don't know about the Asatru stance on this.
It's a topic of interest to me since quite some time.
You might find you get as many different opinions as people you talk to...
|
Most probably, yes. But the links that you provided do
give a few interesting clues. Of course, I don't expect
the racist supremacists posing as Asatruar to be any
less full of prejudice (and shit) on this specific topic
than the usual ones on which they attract "attention".
| Quote: | Unfortunately, from what I could check on the archives,
it was never mentioned on alt.religion.shamanism. Well,
now it's done.
Would be interesting to know from current Shamanic pratitioners what
they experience the link to be. Might explain a few things for me
myself. My familiar spirit is male.
So many questions!
Wassail, Lis
|
I'll be really glad if I can be of any help, and I could
develop a few things deeper, but to be frank, there are
some issues that I won't discuss on forums. Feel free to
drop me an e-mail if you are interested, the addy that
I'm putting in this message's headers is fully valid.
--
Néo |
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Néo
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:20 am Post subject: Re: Gods and Goddesses |
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Doug Freyburger a écrit :
| Quote: | Néo <n...@adresski.ru> wrote:
I have had quite a few glimpses from Odin ...
I've had one dramatic one. He showed up and told me to
follow. No details, no explanation. After considerable
pondering I decided most of the ancients followed the
pantheon as a whole not one specific patron so that's
what I've done in Asatru. The Wanderer is quite welcome
to show up any time and give more details. So far, no
corrections. I've had contacts since with various others
in the pantheon ranging from life changing through brief
feelings of fellowship.
|
OK... so if I got you well, you sort of followed his demand,
but in the way you felt was the safest, and he seemed to be
happy with it.
| Quote: | On Loki - It's common for newbies to Asatru to think of him
as an enemy. It's an easy transition from the Christian view
of a Devil or any view of hostile spirits. The problem with the
view is it ignores that Asatru does have a main enemy - Surt.
It is Surt's team who eventually face the Aesir at Ragnarok
and it is Surt's team who Odin works constantly on to delay
the battle to change its outcome. In these efforts sometimes
Odin works with Loki. Loki is of ambiguous allegiance and
of apparently changing alliegiance but he's definately not an
implacable enemy. He's not to be invited and maybe not to
be respected, but viewing him as an enemy or the enemy
misses one of the most important lessons in all of the Asatru
lore. Asatru oldbies might be anywhere from Loki hostile to
Loki friendly, but they will have learned that he isn't *the*
enemy. Surt's *the* enemy.
|
I have taken the time to ponder on the many explanations
given so far on this topic. I eventually understood that
the contents of the lore is partial for good reasons.
Recently, based on info from several sources, including
by his own account, I have identified a guy who could well
be the soul bearer of yet another one from Surt's gang.
The one I'm referring to seems to have been some sort of
fallen, male, solar type Deity who once thought he could
rule on everybody else Up Above. His egotic fuse blowing
(to put it briefly) seems to have made him follow a path
of self-destruction, which is why I ended up considering
that he was no more a prime danger.
| Quote: | Loki is the high risk high gain guy. His risky exploits got
the greatest tresures of the Aesir from Mjollnir on. Low risk,
low gain. Of all the Aesir the next highest risk is Odin.
|
Well, maybe I'm prejudiced concerning Odin, too. :-)
| Quote: | Some of these experiences do relate to sacred sexuality
as well as gender switching (maybe this is what you meant
by using the term cross-dressing). So basically, what you
first wrote here did ring a bell, for sure.
Quoting this uppsalaonline.com site again, and adding
alt.religion.shamanism:
"Seidh practice may have involved various cross-gendered
practices, such as cross-dressing or passive homosexuality.
(This is not a certain thing. There are arguments both ways
about it. But male seidh practitioners were often referred
to as seidhberendur, and berendur was a coarse term in Old
Norse for female genitalia, and was used to refer to
homosexual men, amongst other things.) Thus Odin can also
be seen as god of the transgendered of various kinds."
This could be seen as linked to the topic of two-spirit
shamans. I don't know about the Asatru stance on this.
It's a topic of interest to me since quite some time.
I've watched and read and asked around in Asatru about that
topic for going on two decades at this point and I don't think a
concensus on that question is anywhere on the horizon. So
I'll offer my symbolic take on it in the hopes that some with
more or more recent experiences and study on the topic
might offer better -
|
Well, even without trying to know what a consensus would be
on this topic for now, thanks for trying to bring forth what
there is at hand.
| Quote: | Doug's background assumptions -
I think the true in the lore is more symbolic and poetic than
literal. I think the nature of the dieties is they are spirits with
no mater in their natural forms. Maybe they can assume
physical bodies maybe not.
|
My background assumptions, for what they are worth, would
be that indeed, their nature primarily has to do with their
spirits, not their (fluctuating) appeareances. Very briefly
put, I see it as two-fold: their individual (fully awake)
spirits and their "jobs" within the Great Scheme of Things.
I have been taught a few things about the "features" of
their "bodies". From what I understand, there are some
specifics (one of them being a "dynamic" nature), but I
lack enough info (due to some reasons that I could
understand quite well) to be able to provide a global
picture for now.
To my knowledge, they are also perfectly able to become
incarnate here on Earth, if need be, and it could happen
rather more often than one may think. Among the ones
known in the Norse pantheon, so far, I could identify a
few who are most probably presently incarnated here on
Earth.
| Quote: | Doug's thesis on cross dressing topics in Asatru lore -
So what does gender mean for a being without a body?
There's more to it than the DNA and proteins that make up
the genetic part they don't have in their natural forms. Taking
it symbolically it brings up archetypes of passive and
aggressive, accepting and penetrating, nurturing and controlling
as well as many other pairings that get to be part of gender
roles in poetry and symbolism. The fruit and the tree, plants
can be both without symbolic complexities.
|
According to my understanding and experience and to a
number of first-hand accounts, a fully blown (some would
say awake/awakened) spirit, like an individual Deity (but
not restricted to them) would possess the two genders -
at least as a possibility, that is, without necessarily
making use of this possibility. One exception could be
Frigg, which I see as the "eldest of the tribe" - or a
Mother Goddess if you like.
| Quote: | Seidhr is Asatru trancework. As such it's a Shamanic
tradition (or more accurately the memory of a tradition with
folks trying to rebuild it). Trancework often involves contact
with the spirits. It's the tie-in between ARA and ARS in this
thread.
|
The example provided by neo-shamans seems to show that
since there are spirits involved, and since Deities are
who they are beyond a strictly limited setup in space
and time (even if, as history show, space and time are
going to influence some of the aspects which they show),
this part of the reconstruction work should happen well.
| Quote: | In a trance a spirit can come forward in a person.
It's called be ridden, being posessed and so on. It is
symbolically the passive, accepting, nurturing flower part of
the gender divide. This is why I take terms like cross dressing
and passive homosexuality on this topic to be poetic or
symbolic expressions of a spirit coming into a person. I do
not take them as literal and as usual I think folks who try to
find literal depictions for everything in lore lose most of its
meaning.
|
Being possessed by a divine spirit is a true spiritual
experience and happens within a shamanic framework, but
it's (by far) not the only type of interaction observed.
I agree with your point here, I only want to avoid
restricting our present framework.
As some (at least Greek for instance) IE legends clearly
show, from time to time, some Deities clearly express a
wish for sensual interaction with presently incarnated
human beings, including homosexual relationships. I have
heard about several such situations in which things did
happen astrally. One important thing here is that these
experiences possess many initiatory aspects. I could even
say that I was surprised when I realized to which extent
the archaic Greek myths that reached us described things
that actually do happen.
| Quote: | Loki as a diety generally depicted as masculine yet he had
children with many amazing traits. Slieppnir is the fastest
of horses and able to run from world to world including go
back and forth to/from the world of the dead. Jormundr is
the world worm who at once holds the planet together and
also gradually churns it and eats it. Hella is the queen of the
world of the dead from which souls are drawn for reincarnation
and from which souls will colonize the next cycle of the
universe after Ragnarok (my view of Hella is not popular but
see how it fits the symbolism). These children are spirits
that he nurtured, that he conceived, but that he did not
supply the inspirational seed. Various other ettins/giants
supplied the inspiration to him for them. Viewed this way it's
a wonderful view of how inspiration can be nurtured into
living spirits. Viewed as needing those inspirations in the
first place would only be viewed as effeminate after most of the
symbolic meaning got lost and folks started to discuss the
terms as if they were meant literally.
|
Well, another specific aspect of a shaman's work is about
shapeshifting. I'm not trying to oppose POVs here, only to
suggest there are many levels of understanding, all equally
valid, and each applying to a specific range of situations.
| Quote: | Loki's children are the holders of the living and the dead as
well as the transportation between those two realms. In the
first two cases the aspects have as much horror (earthquakes,
refusing to return Balder) as good ones (holding in the land,
supplying souls for rebirth into this world and the next). For
a culture who sees horses as pets and sports figures it would
be easy to only see the peaceful aspects of Sleippnir (fast
enough to run world to world) but the ancients lived in a time
when the heavy cavaly was the most effective military force
available (heavy war horses like Sleippnir were the armored
and mechanized corps of those times).
Hail Asgard!
Doug Freyburger
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--
Néo |
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