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Martin
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 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:12 am Post subject: Re: Baptism is essential to salvation! |
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"1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
<1stCenturyApostolic@Traditionalist.com> wrote in message
news:46jqk.18072$6s4.15943@newsfe14.ams2...
| Quote: |
"Martin" <martin1471spamfuck@outgun.com> wrote in message
news:%ueqk.14609$QP4.13914@newsfe19.ams2...
"Jim" <jim.docherty@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:ReidnSc0lpHEszrVnZ2dnUVZ8t3inZ2d@bt.com...
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:93oaa4d4hjgqedhhe56617ktpsbm3n9nvh@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:25:46 -0700 (PDT), claire.easthope@ntlworld.com
wrote:
On 13 Aug, 21:56, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
1stCenturyAposto...@Traditionalist.com> wrote:
"John Cooper" <bl...@bishop1960.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6gguvkFfvtsfU1@mid.individual.net...
God is just.
We are going to be judged according to our works - Matthew 16:27;
25:14-46;
Luke 12:35-48; 19:12-27; Romans 2:5-10; 14:10-12; 1.Corinthians
3:8-18;
2.Corinthians 5:9,10; Colossians 3:23-25; 1.Peter 1:17; 4:17,18;
2.John 8;
Revelation 20:12,13; 22:12.
There is absolutely nothing - no ceremony, no ritual, no church
membership,
no "sinners' prayer", no experience, nor anything else, which can
alter
the
above.
Baptism, in whatever form, cannot substitute for obedience to the
Gospel.
How can it be a substitute John?
Being baptised AFTER belief, is part of being obedient to the Gospel.
Well said!
John 3:5 (New International Version)
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of
God
unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Mark 10:13-14 (New International Version)
The Little Children and Jesus
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them,
but the
disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He
said to
them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for
the
kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Please show where in scripture baptism is called for after "belief".
Children
don't "believe".
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
You are wasting your time in here Duke. Cooper thinks he's a born again
intellectual, Jeffrey is insane and Claire is in dire need of a house
husband. The problem is they think they know, individually of course,
more than the Church in theological matters.
Hardly surprising, since your particular church almost always comes up
wanting in this respect Jim. They are so incredibly inflexible and
arrogant, so far out of tune and out of touch with reality, they only
admitted Galileo was right in the late C19!
To my astonishment, they actually have representatives (c/w monks habit,
tonsure etc.) who shamelessly appear on TV programs today, to defend and
justify the methods and institution of the Spanish Inquisition - somewhat
inneffectively I thought.
The Vatican remains one of the most paranoid, blinkered and
uncompromising authorities in the world, and also one of the most
secretive - hardly surprising when you see what they have to hide! Martin
Luther and co. could hardly fail to score against such a corrupt,
ignorant and immobile institution, obsessed with burning books and even
people in order to maintain its undeserved, much abused power, and
fabulous wealth.
Cheers
Martin
Bravo! Martin.
One of the few times we can most emphatically agree!
|
That pleases me Jeff, it really does - a pity it is about something so
negative. |
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Martin
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:14 am Post subject: Re: Baptism is essential to salvation! |
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<claire.easthope@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:11354930-5909-4807-981c-44a5750a60f1@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | On 18 Aug, 19:22, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
1stCenturyAposto...@Traditionalist.com> wrote:
"Martin" <martin1471spamf...@outgun.com> wrote in message
news:%ueqk.14609$QP4.13914@newsfe19.ams2...
"Jim" <jim.doche...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:ReidnSc0lpHEszrVnZ2dnUVZ8t3inZ2d@bt.com...
"duke" <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:93oaa4d4hjgqedhhe56617ktpsbm3n9nvh@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:25:46 -0700 (PDT),
claire.easth...@ntlworld.com
wrote:
On 13 Aug, 21:56, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
1stCenturyAposto...@Traditionalist.com> wrote:
"John Cooper" <bl...@bishop1960.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6gguvkFfvtsfU1@mid.individual.net...
God is just.
We are going to be judged according to our works - Matthew 16:27;
25:14-46;
Luke 12:35-48; 19:12-27; Romans 2:5-10; 14:10-12; 1.Corinthians
3:8-18;
2.Corinthians 5:9,10; Colossians 3:23-25; 1.Peter 1:17; 4:17,18;
2.John 8;
Revelation 20:12,13; 22:12.
There is absolutely nothing - no ceremony, no ritual, no church
membership,
no "sinners' prayer", no experience, nor anything else, which can
alter
the
above.
Baptism, in whatever form, cannot substitute for obedience to the
Gospel.
How can it be a substitute John?
Being baptised AFTER belief, is part of being obedient to the
Gospel.
Well said!
John 3:5 (New International Version)
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom
of
God
unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Mark 10:13-14 (New International Version)
The Little Children and Jesus
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch
them,
but the
disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He
said
to
them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them,
for
the
kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Please show where in scripture baptism is called for after "belief".
Children
don't "believe".
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
You are wasting your time in here Duke. Cooper thinks he's a born
again
intellectual, Jeffrey is insane and Claire is in dire need of a house
husband. The problem is they think they know, individually of course,
more than the Church in theological matters.
Hardly surprising, since your particular church almost always comes up
wanting in this respect Jim. They are so incredibly inflexible and
arrogant, so far out of tune and out of touch with reality, they only
admitted Galileo was right in the late C19!
To my astonishment, they actually have representatives (c/w monks
habit,
tonsure etc.) who shamelessly appear on TV programs today, to defend
and
justify the methods and institution of the Spanish Inquisition -
somewhat
inneffectively I thought.
The Vatican remains one of the most paranoid, blinkered and
uncompromising
authorities in the world, and also one of the most secretive - hardly
surprising when you see what they have to hide! Martin Luther and co.
could hardly fail to score against such a corrupt, ignorant and
immobile
institution, obsessed with burning books and even people in order to
maintain its undeserved, much abused power, and fabulous wealth.
Cheers
Martin
Bravo! Martin.
One of the few times we can most emphatically agree!
It had to happen sooner or later! 
|
It has happened before in fact (baptism?), and may well again I hope.
Cheers
Martin |
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Peter Terry
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: Re: Beatles a Christian band? Lennon 'big fan' of Jesus |
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"swpub" <eschultze@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0948157e-5a21-4fb1-a4a3-d72cbdebfb96@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | On Aug 7, 12:26 am, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)"
alwh...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
On Jul 16, 5:14 am, Lord Calvert <CalvertdeG...@msn.com> wrote:
On Jul 15, 2:58 pm, Brian E. Clark <re...@newsgroup.only.please
wrote:
In article <21dssh.svr.1...@news.alt.net>, J said...
Beatles a Christian band?
No.
Lennon 'big fan' of Jesus
Yes. Lennon was a fan of Jesus (and Buddha and
Mohammed and so forth). But he was not a fan of
Christianity.
Just like Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson were big fans of Jesus but
they were not Christians. While they admired his teachings they
rejected his claim to divinity and they openly hostile to
organizations (meaning all organized religious bodies) that claimed to
represent him for their own personal profit.
Of course, Lennon was still naive enough to be bamboozled by a
religious fraud but he managed to get out of it. Most people never
do.
"I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians." --Gandhi
Al
No one in their right mind is a fan of Christianity in its modern form
of pervertedness.
Nor the post Jesus violent ancient version either. |
PeterT |
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Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: Re: Pelosi and Reid cause Jobless claims to shoot through th |
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On Aug 18, 7:08 am, Paul Wheller <pwhel...@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | bvall...@aol.com <bvall...@aol.com> wrote:
If you like the unemployment rise now, you'll LOVE what's in store if
Obama manages to grab the White House.
Bush bloated the size of government by 25% since Clinton, and spending went
through the roof. Are you claiming that a dose of Republican fiscal
responsibility is in order?
|
this despite GWBush running on a platform saying he was going to
reduce the size and intrusions of government but instead increasing it
(what republican has not made the same promise and given the same
result?)
| Quote: |
What kind of hallucinogenics do you idiots shove up your assholes?
You are delusional. All you have is unsubstantiated fear and loathing to
peddle. You don't even know that McSame's platform it.
The Republicans are like you, a party of old, brainless fuddy duddies who
wear depends and probably aren't even allowed to drive because you're so
senile.
Incidentally, does McCain have a drivers licsense? Where does he stick his
depends?
Ha! Ha! You're still blaming liberals for Nixon's failure in Vietnam!
Take a gun to your head and blow your brains out. The asylums are full of
morons like you and they all have the requist copies of Corsi's smear book. |
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jwsheffield@satx.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: Re: Baptism is essential to salvation! and forgivness of sin |
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Ac 16:15 - And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought
us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into
my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
When my two sons were born, they
were part of my household. I didn't
throw them out until they became
adults, and neither does God.
They took to the milk at
birth.
Jim
1Pe 2:2 - As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that
ye may grow thereby: |
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1st Century Apostolic Tra
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Wise Bible Readings 2 |
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|
<claire.easthope@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:32e49a4b-d551-4094-81c4-dabd3c74c0cf@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On 16 Aug, 20:28, "Jim" <jim.doche...@btinternet.com> wrote:
| Quote: | claire.easth...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:10c6aba9-aea8-422e-b541-9540be6af1e2@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
On 9 Aug, 23:56, "Jim" <jim.doche...@btinternet.com> wrote:
Yum, I like mince!  tahehehe!
So glad, you can certainly talk some. Go take a history lesson from
somewhere that hasn't dumbed down.
The history of what?
Everything!
|
~You've studied "the history of everything"? wow, aren't you a clever
~boy!
So clever he once stated.....
"The Bible is too complex and contradictory for me.
I am consoled by; Matthew: Chapter 16, verses 17-19"
No wonder, its about the only verse he ever quotes, we now know why, he is
not Biblically literate.
Jeff... |
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1st Century Apostolic Tra
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Baptism is essential to salvation! |
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"Martin" wrote in message >
| Quote: | "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
1stCenturyApostolic@Traditionalist.com> wrote in message
news:46jqk.18072$6s4.15943@newsfe14.ams2...
"Martin" wrote in message
To my astonishment, they actually have representatives (c/w monks habit,
tonsure etc.) who shamelessly appear on TV programs today, to defend and
justify the methods and institution of the Spanish Inquisition -
somewhat inneffectively I thought.
The Vatican remains one of the most paranoid, blinkered and
uncompromising authorities in the world, and also one of the most
secretive - hardly surprising when you see what they have to hide!
Martin Luther and co. could hardly fail to score against such a corrupt,
ignorant and immobile institution, obsessed with burning books and even
people in order to maintain its undeserved, much abused power, and
fabulous wealth.
Cheers
Martin
Bravo! Martin.
One of the few times we can most emphatically agree!
That pleases me Jeff, it really does - a pity it is about something so
negative.
|
It's very positive because it warns others of the Catholic churches vile
hypocrisies, who may be thinking of joining such a God-dishonouring
blasphemous sect.
Matthew 23:9
1 Corinthians 11:4
Jeff... |
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duke
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Baptism is essential to salvation! |
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On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 11:16:21 -0700 (PDT), claire.easthope@ntlworld.com wrote:
| Quote: | On 18 Aug, 13:08, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 12:46:21 -0700 (PDT), claire.easth...@ntlworld.com wrote:
But the Bible was not written in Latin, it was written in Greek an
Hebrew.
But the biblical language was not Greek, but Aramiac. The first translation is
Greek.
So why does Jim want it in Latin and why didn't the Pope want it in
English, German etc?
|
Language of the writer and specifically his audience to the writing played a
part.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
***** |
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duke
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Baptism is essential to salvation! |
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On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 11:23:53 -0700 (PDT), claire.easthope@ntlworld.com wrote:
| Quote: | I don't know about "the "Church"since we are all the church. The
essential part of being saved is belief not baptism
Wrong. Belief without works is dead belief.
How is that work then? There's no work in being pulled out your pram
and sprinkled - not for the baby I mean!
|
Jesus said that unless one is baptized he cannot enter the Kingdom of God and
further, that the kingdom of God belongs to the little children.
Baptism of infants removes the stain of original sin from the infant's soul
compliments of mom and dad's wishes, Romans 5:12-14. Until some age of
understanding and consent is achieved, youth cannot commit actual sin. As aging
continues past the age of consent, then actual sin committed enters the picture.
Clearly attaining the age of consent allows one to make a conscious decision to
become a Christian, to turn away from sin, at which they would be then baptized,
which again removes their original sin + all actual sin to that point. Becoming
a Christian demands a change in our way of life - to follow Christ to others in
need (in service as he did not come to be served).
| Quote: | so therefore
Catholics can be saved (yes, I hear the Pope breath a sigh of relief!)
but you are wrong to conclude that un-baptised children are not.
Children are conceived in sin prior to baptism. Baptism removes that stain well
before the age of consent.
How can it if they don't believe? God's laws are just - do you really
think he would allow the condemnation of children for the sins of
their parents?
|
Romans 5:12-14 (New International Version)
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through
sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the
law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when
there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time
of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam,
who was a pattern of the one to come.
Note there was no standard to define "sin" until the 10 commandants. Yet death
still reigned. And no baptism until Jesus. Hence we have the concept of a
limbo for the deceased preborn/infants prior to a "baptism". But no body knows
of a state of limbo, so the RCC has elected to just drop talking about limbo and
trust in God's mercy re the unbaptized infants that died.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
***** |
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duke
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Baptism is essential to salvation! |
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On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:14:59 +0100, "Martin" <martin1471spamfuck@outgun.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | You are wasting your time in here Duke. Cooper thinks he's a born again
intellectual, Jeffrey is insane and Claire is in dire need of a house
husband. The problem is they think they know, individually of course, more
than the Church in theological matters. When they agree amongst themselves
then we can worry, much like the history of the Church and Christendom. We
should have stuck to the Latin and spared the grief.
Tell me again why a Roman Catholic would be wasting his time here?
Hmmmm... probably because most people here express their beliefs without
fear or favour, and are not afraid to question tradition, superstition and
self-proclaimed 'authority'.
|
Yet turn to their own authority to declare truth?
| Quote: | In other words, they might not hear what they want to hear. Jim seems to
find that all freedom of thought (religiously) is heretical, as is any
criticism of the CC.
|
Well, I don't know what Jim said. I think all Christians should buy a copy of
the Catechism and read it. Most for the first time would find out how scripture
all comes together, OT + NT, rather than see scripture as a bunch of one-liners.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
***** |
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duke
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Baptism is essential to salvation! |
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On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 11:13:55 -0700 (PDT), claire.easthope@ntlworld.com wrote:
| Quote: | Tell me again why a Roman Catholic would be wasting his time here?
Because he loves insulting everybody! To him insulting people is no
more a waste of time than sport (which is pretty much a waste of time
but gives people pleasure!)
|
The RC is insulted, or the RC does the insulting?
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
***** |
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duke
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Baptism is essential to salvation! |
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On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:08:27 +0100, "Martin" <martin1471spamfuck@outgun.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"Jim" <jim.docherty@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:ReidnSc0lpHEszrVnZ2dnUVZ8t3inZ2d@bt.com...
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:93oaa4d4hjgqedhhe56617ktpsbm3n9nvh@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:25:46 -0700 (PDT), claire.easthope@ntlworld.com
wrote:
On 13 Aug, 21:56, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
1stCenturyAposto...@Traditionalist.com> wrote:
"John Cooper" <bl...@bishop1960.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6gguvkFfvtsfU1@mid.individual.net...
God is just.
We are going to be judged according to our works - Matthew 16:27;
25:14-46;
Luke 12:35-48; 19:12-27; Romans 2:5-10; 14:10-12; 1.Corinthians
3:8-18;
2.Corinthians 5:9,10; Colossians 3:23-25; 1.Peter 1:17; 4:17,18;
2.John 8;
Revelation 20:12,13; 22:12.
There is absolutely nothing - no ceremony, no ritual, no church
membership,
no "sinners' prayer", no experience, nor anything else, which can
alter
the
above.
Baptism, in whatever form, cannot substitute for obedience to the
Gospel.
How can it be a substitute John?
Being baptised AFTER belief, is part of being obedient to the Gospel.
Well said!
John 3:5 (New International Version)
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of
God
unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Mark 10:13-14 (New International Version)
The Little Children and Jesus
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them,
but the
disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said
to
them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for
the
kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Please show where in scripture baptism is called for after "belief".
Children
don't "believe".
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
You are wasting your time in here Duke. Cooper thinks he's a born again
intellectual, Jeffrey is insane and Claire is in dire need of a house
husband. The problem is they think they know, individually of course, more
than the Church in theological matters.
Hardly surprising, since your particular church almost always comes up
wanting in this respect Jim. They are so incredibly inflexible and arrogant,
so far out of tune and out of touch with reality, they only admitted Galileo
was right in the late C19!
To my astonishment, they actually have representatives (c/w monks habit,
tonsure etc.) who shamelessly appear on TV programs today, to defend and
justify the methods and institution of the Spanish Inquisition - somewhat
inneffectively I thought.
|
Did your church from AD0 wear 3 piece suits?
| Quote: | The Vatican remains one of the most paranoid, blinkered and uncompromising
authorities in the world, and also one of the most secretive - hardly
surprising when you see what they have to hide!
|
How does one compromise the word of God? The easiest way is to think an
individual has a corner on the market.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
***** |
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bam
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Baptism is essential to salvation! |
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<claire.easthope@ntlworld.com> wrote
| Quote: | I don't know about "the "Church"since we are all the church.
|
Says who?
| Quote: | The
essential part of being saved is belief not baptism so therefore
Catholics can be saved (yes, I hear the Pope breath a sigh of relief!)
but you are wrong to conclude that un-baptised children are not.
|
Says who? Are you making God in your own image?
BAM |
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bam
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Beatles a Christian band? Lennon 'big fan' of Jesus |
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"Peter Terry" <mombassa@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:zCnqk.29449$IK1.16364@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
| Quote: |
"swpub" <eschultze@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0948157e-5a21-4fb1-a4a3-d72cbdebfb96@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 7, 12:26 am, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)"
alwh...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
On Jul 16, 5:14 am, Lord Calvert <CalvertdeG...@msn.com> wrote:
On Jul 15, 2:58 pm, Brian E. Clark <re...@newsgroup.only.please
wrote:
In article <21dssh.svr.1...@news.alt.net>, J said...
Beatles a Christian band?
No.
Lennon 'big fan' of Jesus
Yes. Lennon was a fan of Jesus (and Buddha and
Mohammed and so forth). But he was not a fan of
Christianity.
Just like Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson were big fans of Jesus but
they were not Christians. While they admired his teachings they
rejected his claim to divinity and they openly hostile to
organizations (meaning all organized religious bodies) that claimed to
represent him for their own personal profit.
Of course, Lennon was still naive enough to be bamboozled by a
religious fraud but he managed to get out of it. Most people never
do.
"I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians." --Gandhi
Al
No one in their right mind is a fan of Christianity in its modern form
of pervertedness.
Nor the post Jesus violent ancient version either.
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You know nothing.
BAM |
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Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Baptism is essential to salvation! |
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On 19 Aug, 13:13, "bam" <mcca5b...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
| Quote: | claire.easth...@ntlworld.com> wrote
I don't know about "the "Church" since we are all the church.
Says who?
|
Christ no less, that's one person you would not dare claim to be
superior to!
| Quote: | The
essential part of being saved is belief not baptism so therefore
Catholics can be saved (yes, I hear the Pope breath a sigh of relief!)
but you are wrong to conclude that un-baptised children are not.
Says who? Are you making God in your own image?
|
Considering the liberties Catholicism has taken I think that's more
than a bit rich!
> BAM |
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