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Bill Cunningham
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 Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Karma |
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"Tad Perry" <tadperry@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:bi2d3d$4hg6g$1@ID-193830.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | "Evelyn Ruut" <mama-lion@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:elJ%a.7005$Sq.1415640@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Obtaining clairvoyance is an interesting experience, but it often
isolates
one. The biggest problem with clairvoyance is that no one ever listens
to
you. They want you to use the ability for mundane stuff, or to solve
problems they are supposed to work out for themselves. It is often
sketchy
and vague, and you don't always know everything.
That's where you use tools to "kick off" like cards or tarot cards, dowsing, |
etc.
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Tang Huyen
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:24 pm Post subject: Chiaroscuro (was Re: Karma) |
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Tad Perry wrote:
| Quote: | "Evelyn Ruut"
Obtaining clairvoyance is an interesting experience, but it often
isolates one. The biggest problem with clairvoyance is that no
one ever listens to you. They want you to use the ability for
mundane stuff, or to solve problems they are supposed to work out
for themselves. It is often sketchy and vague, and you don't
always know everything.
You must be talking about "not-so-clairvoyance."
|
This contrast between claim of knowledge (of whatever kind, natural
or super-natural) and simultaneous disclaim of it (or watering it down
as "It is often sketchy and vague, and you don't always know
everything")
is an easy way to make it appear that one *stands out* for some superior
knowledge and yet to render all testing of such a claim futile before it
can even begin.
So on one hand our Evvie claims "clairvoyance", one the other she
disclaims it and rather implicitly claims "not-so-clairvoyance" instead.
Very clever.
But such a claim of knowledge is pretty unrefutable when dealing with
transcendental stuff, and can fail wretchedly when confronted with dirty
reality -- "mundane stuff", which can be seen and heard.
The same situation obtains with claims of a transendental nature, like
the one about Phowa at http://retreat.palyul.org/retreat_phowa.htm
"Strong practitioner of Phowa can even effect this practice on another
individual's behalf."
Nobody can verify or unverify such a claim, about the dead or the
dying-but-soon-to-be-dead, but a claim that can be easily verified or
unverified is like for all the Tibetan Lama-s together to exercise
their super-natural powers to chase the Chinese invaders out of Tibet
and make Tibet free again.
Tang Huyen |
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Tang Huyen
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:54 am Post subject: Re: Chiaroscuro (was Re: Karma) |
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Ludwig wrote:
| Quote: | "Tang Huyen"
Nobody can verify or unverify such a claim, about the dead or the
dying-but-soon-to-be-dead, but a claim that can be easily verified or
unverified is like for all the Tibetan Lama-s together to exercise
their super-natural powers to chase the Chinese invaders out of Tibet
and make Tibet free again.
Do I detect a touch of scepticism?
|
It comes from the Buddha, who says in the Potthapada Sutta (DN 9):
"It is as though a man should say: 'Whoever is the belle of this
countryside, I want her, I desire her'. Another man might say: 'My good
man, do you know whether this belle of the countryside whom you want and
desire is a noble maiden or a brahmin or a merchant or a worker?' Asked
this, he would say: 'No'. The other might say to him: 'Do you now the
name or clan of this belle of the countryside whom you want and desire,
whether she is tall or short or of medium height, or dark or brown or
sallow, or what village or market town or what town she belongs to?'
Asked this, he would say: 'No'. The other might speak thus to him:
'My good man, do you want and desire her whom you know not, see not?'
Asked this, he might say; 'Yes'. This being so, surely that man's
irresponsible talk does not prosper him?"
"Certainly, this being so, surely that man's irresponsible talk does not
prosper him?"
"Then just so also, Potthapada, with the recluses and Brahmans who talk
about the soul being perfectly happy and healthy after death. For they
acknowledge that they do not know any such state in this world now.
It is just as if a man set up stairs at the fourfold crossroads with
the intention of climbing to a palace. People would ask him: Good man,
the palace that you want to climb to in building these stairs, do you
know whether it is in the East, West, North, South? At the zenith,
nadir? In the middle? He would answer: No. They would say: So you build
these stairs to climb to a palace of which you know nothing and which
you have not seen? He would reply: Right!"
If Evvie enjoyed clairvoyance, she could have helped the Dalai Lama in
his dealing with the Chinese on the young Panchen Lama, and everybody
knows that he handled it badly, so that the Chinese seized the boy and
either killed him or are raising him to be dumb.
Tang Huyen |
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Evelyn Ruut
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:12 am Post subject: Re: Chiaroscuro (was Re: Karma) |
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"Tang Huyen" <tang_huyen@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3F47E294.B527ECA1@yahoo.com...
| Quote: |
If Evvie enjoyed clairvoyance, she could have helped the Dalai Lama in
his dealing with the Chinese on the young Panchen Lama, and everybody
knows that he handled it badly, so that the Chinese seized the boy and
either killed him or are raising him to be dumb.
Tang Huyen
|
Tang, Tang....... you haven't got a clue about clairvoyance. It isn't like
a super power. It is glimpses, hunches, feelings, intuitions. It is like
a dream, not an exact science that can be harnessed at will.
--
Evelyn
"Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having
nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst
into laughter." -Longchenpa |
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Collectively Unconscious
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:44 am Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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Now that is kinky.
I guess NASA needs the ratings.
Shiva wrote:
| Quote: | LOL. Some astronauts are worried that the Hubble space
telescope might not be serviced by NASA till 2007.
Perhaps...
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Ludwig
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:51 am Post subject: Re: Chiaroscuro (was Re: Karma) |
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"Tang Huyen" <tang_huyen@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3F47E294.B527ECA1@yahoo.com...
| Quote: | Do I detect a touch of scepticism?
It comes from the Buddha, who says in the Potthapada Sutta (DN 9):
"It is as though a man should say: 'Whoever is the belle of this
countryside, I want her, I desire her'. Another man might say: 'My good
man, do you know whether this belle of the countryside whom you want and
desire is a noble maiden or a brahmin or a merchant or a worker?' Asked
this, he would say: 'No'. The other might say to him: 'Do you now the
name or clan of this belle of the countryside whom you want and desire,
whether she is tall or short or of medium height, or dark or brown or
sallow, or what village or market town or what town she belongs to?'
Asked this, he would say: 'No'. The other might speak thus to him:
'My good man, do you want and desire her whom you know not, see not?'
Asked this, he might say; 'Yes'. This being so, surely that man's
irresponsible talk does not prosper him?"
"Certainly, this being so, surely that man's irresponsible talk does not
prosper him?"
"Then just so also, Potthapada, with the recluses and Brahmans who talk
about the soul being perfectly happy and healthy after death. For they
acknowledge that they do not know any such state in this world now.
It is just as if a man set up stairs at the fourfold crossroads with
the intention of climbing to a palace. People would ask him: Good man,
the palace that you want to climb to in building these stairs, do you
know whether it is in the East, West, North, South? At the zenith,
nadir? In the middle? He would answer: No. They would say: So you build
these stairs to climb to a palace of which you know nothing and which
you have not seen? He would reply: Right!"
|
Hmm not sure that the above quotation backs up the claim that the Buddha was
sceptical about clairvoyance.
Vaguely related point: James Randi was on a tv show here the other night and
it struck me that he really gets on my nerves, and always has done. I hadn't
ever realised how much. Its not that I believe in ESP etc, its just that his
harping on a single topic and evident enjoyment in tormenting vulnerable
believers seemed like such a waste of energy. Something schoolboyish about
it, too.
Its very, very easy to start believing that we have a better understanding
of the world than we do, and in fact things are still pretty mysterious -
frighteningly so, if you start clinging to theories and viewpoints. One way
of shielding yourself from that fear is to engage
in battles with - supposedly - weak minded believers a la Mr Randi.
Ludwig
| Quote: |
If Evvie enjoyed clairvoyance, she could have helped the Dalai Lama in
his dealing with the Chinese on the young Panchen Lama, and everybody
knows that he handled it badly, so that the Chinese seized the boy and
either killed him or are raising him to be dumb.
Tang Huyen |
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Robert Epstein
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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Evelyn Ruut wrote:
| Quote: | For the record, to correct the kind of thinking this subject title might
imply;
I claim nothing more than any other normal person if they knew what to
listen for, or to intuit, if they allowed themselves the freedom to hear or
feel. All being "psychic" means is that you know how to listen to your
hunches. Everyone has them, not everyone listens to them.
Oh for God's sake Evelyn. You must know by now that anyone who |
professes any experience out of the ordinary is scorned and mocked here.
This might as well be alt.realism.empiricism for all the spirituality here.
Robert |
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Robert Epstein
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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dogwalker wrote:
| Quote: | "Robert Epstein" <r.epstein@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3F499A2D.9050301@verizon.net...
Evelyn Ruut wrote:
For the record, to correct the kind of thinking this subject title might
imply;
I claim nothing more than any other normal person if they knew what to
listen for, or to intuit, if they allowed themselves the freedom to hear
or
feel. All being "psychic" means is that you know how to listen to your
hunches. Everyone has them, not everyone listens to them.
Oh for God's sake Evelyn. You must know by now that anyone who
professes any experience out of the ordinary is scorned and mocked here.
This might as well be alt.realism.empiricism for all the spirituality
here.
Robert
ordinary zen only
ah,. the party line. |
robert |
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Tang Huyen
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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Robert Epstein wrote:
| Quote: | Evelyn Ruut:
For the record, to correct the kind of thinking this subject title might
imply;
I claim nothing more than any other normal person if they knew what to
listen for, or to intuit, if they allowed themselves the freedom to hear or
feel. All being "psychic" means is that you know how to listen to your
hunches. Everyone has them, not everyone listens to them.
Oh for God's sake Evelyn. You must know by now that anyone who
professes any experience out of the ordinary is scorned and mocked here.
This might as well be alt.realism.empiricism for all the spirituality here.
Robert
|
I have no problems with claims, so long as the claimants can prove
them, and the best way for them to prove them is for others to test
them on them. To make claims is to ask for tests.
If people claim hunches and how to listen to them, let's test them
on them. Simple enough.
Tang Huyen |
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Evelyn Ruut
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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"dogwalker" <dog@gy.com> wrote in message
news:iuf2b.2502$Cg2.208201@news20.bellglobal.com...
| Quote: |
"Evelyn Ruut" <mama-lion@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:sZ72b.47374$Sq.7772446@twister.nyc.rr.com...
For the record, to correct the kind of thinking this subject title might
imply;
I claim nothing more than any other normal person if they knew what to
listen for, or to intuit, if they allowed themselves the freedom to hear
or
feel. All being "psychic" means is that you know how to listen to your
hunches. Everyone has them, not everyone listens to them.
--
Evelyn
"Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is,
having
nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well
burst
into laughter." -Longchenpa
what seemed like psychic powers in the
past has become the science of today.
now we speak to each other
through wires and through the air.
tomorrow we may learn to speak
to each other in other ways.
|
Well said, dogwalker.
It is more a matter of ones own obscurations, or being convinced that they
cannot possibly be able to experience more than superficially, that is the
greatest obstacle to actually seeing more.
--
Evelyn
"Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having
nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst
into laughter." -Longchenpa |
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Evelyn Ruut
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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"Tang Huyen" <tang_huyen@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3F49EBE4.AF9E7305@yahoo.com...
| Quote: |
Robert Epstein wrote:
Evelyn Ruut:
For the record, to correct the kind of thinking this subject title
might
imply;
I claim nothing more than any other normal person if they knew what to
listen for, or to intuit, if they allowed themselves the freedom to
hear or
feel. All being "psychic" means is that you know how to listen to
your
hunches. Everyone has them, not everyone listens to them.
Oh for God's sake Evelyn. You must know by now that anyone who
professes any experience out of the ordinary is scorned and mocked here.
This might as well be alt.realism.empiricism for all the spirituality
here.
Robert
I have no problems with claims, so long as the claimants can prove
them, and the best way for them to prove them is for others to test
them on them. To make claims is to ask for tests.
If people claim hunches and how to listen to them, let's test them
on them. Simple enough.
Tang Huyen
|
What is there to test? It is like a mirage. Anyone who has ever tried to
really test such things has usually lost the important message in the
process and the tests have failed and nothing ends up proved or disproved.
Besides do you REALLY think I would cooperate with you or your pals on such
a thing? If I could turn it off and on at will don't you think I would go
for a lottery number or a horse race winner? It simply doesn't work that
way.
--
Evelyn
"Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having
nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst
into laughter." -Longchenpa |
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Tang Huyen
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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Evelyn Ruut wrote:
| Quote: | Besides do you REALLY think I would cooperate
with you or your pals on such a thing?
|
Yet another claim.
What matters is that my pals and I can almost induce
some people to blow on mere words, even if they
claim to be able to listen to their hunches. And we can
do it routinely, day in day out, month in month out,
year in year out.
Tang Huyen |
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Evelyn Ruut
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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"Tang Huyen" <tang_huyen@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3F4A1DF3.A96F863A@yahoo.com...
| Quote: |
Evelyn Ruut wrote:
Besides do you REALLY think I would cooperate
with you or your pals on such a thing?
Yet another claim.
What matters is that my pals and I can almost induce
some people to blow on mere words, even if they
claim to be able to listen to their hunches. And we can
do it routinely, day in day out, month in month out,
year in year out.
Tang Huyen
|
Whatever floats your boat, Tang.
As for me, I couldn't think of a more boring pastime.
--
Evelyn
"Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having
nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst
into laughter." -Longchenpa
> |
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Pema
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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Tang Huyen <tang_huyen@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3F49EBE4.AF9E7305@yahoo.com>...
| Quote: | Robert Epstein wrote:
Evelyn Ruut:
For the record, to correct the kind of thinking this subject title might
imply;
I claim nothing more than any other normal person if they knew what to
listen for, or to intuit, if they allowed themselves the freedom to hear or
feel. All being "psychic" means is that you know how to listen to your
hunches. Everyone has them, not everyone listens to them.
Oh for God's sake Evelyn. You must know by now that anyone who
professes any experience out of the ordinary is scorned and mocked here.
This might as well be alt.realism.empiricism for all the spirituality here.
Robert
I have no problems with claims, so long as the claimants can prove
them, and the best way for them to prove them is for others to test
them on them. To make claims is to ask for tests.
If people claim hunches and how to listen to them, let's test them
on them. Simple enough.
Tang Huyen
|
leave it to you to outta hand ignore intuition. leave it to you to
insist on proof. there's only one problem with your position, no one
cares if you believe it or not. from evvies post, she doesn't seem to
care if anyone believes it or not. your chasing your own tail. |
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Lhamo
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:09 pm Post subject: Tang boasts of pissing people off? |
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Tang Huyen wrote:
| Quote: | What matters is that my pals and I can almost induce
some people to blow on mere words, even if they
claim to be able to listen to their hunches. And we can
do it routinely, day in day out, month in month out,
year in year out.
Tang Huyen
|
So you are confessing that you are intentionally a rude adolescent prick
"year in and year out"?
- Lhamo |
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