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Tang Huyen
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 Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: Tang boasts of pissing people off? |
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Lhamo wrote:
| Quote: | Tang Huyen:
What matters is that my pals and I can almost induce
some people to blow on mere words, even if they
claim to be able to listen to their hunches. And we can
do it routinely, day in day out, month in month out,
year in year out.
So you are confessing that you are intentionally a rude
adolescent prick "year in and year out"?
- Lhamo
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Only to test those who make claims, like "clairvoyance",
"a professional psychic", "know how to listen to your
hunches".
All proportions being kept, in the early canon, when
somebody proclaims a state superior to the normal human
state, like arhat-ship, he may be legitimately subjected to
testing, by supernormal means if available. The impression
is that when such means are not available, just plain
ordinary (natural and not supernatural) testing should
suffice, surely in case of elimination (i. e., he doesn't
pass).
AN, V, 155-161 (10, 84-85), GS, V, 105-108
"Declaration of knowledge" and "The boaster" present
Moggalana the Great telling the monks what to do when
somebody declares arhat-ship. A wayfarer or wayfarer's
disciple who is a meditator and skilled in mind-reading
should closely examine, question and talk with him.
The claimant comes to a desert, comes to a jungle, comes
to an ill pass, because the wayfarer or wayfarer's disciple
finds that he is wrathful, lives with mind beset by wrath,
is a boaster and garrulous about his own attainments, etc.
The failing claimant is found to have further to do
(uttari-kara.niiya) but is come to a halt midway in his
career (antaraa-vosaana).
In the context of Devadatta's wish to take control of the
Order of Monks, the Buddha mentioned five types of
teachers, one of whom thinks:
"I am pure, pure are my ways, claean and stainless", but
his disciples know: "This worthy teacher is impure in his
ways, but thinks otherwise.... What one does oneself,
just by that will one be known oneself (Ya.m 'tumo
karissati, 'tumo 'va tena paññaayissati). The disciples
protect such a teacher in his ways, and such a teacher
expects this protection (rakkha) of his disciples." The
Buddha then says that he is pure and does not expect his
disciples to protect him. AN, III, 124 (5, 100).
The idea is that impure teachers need their disciples to
cover up for them, and pure ones don't. The former
won't pass tests, the latter will. Either way, "What one
does oneself, just by that will one be known oneself
(Ya.m 'tumo karissati, 'tumo 'va tena paññaayissati)."
You talk of deed and its return, remember?
Of course when somebody declares an attainment, we
should be happy that it's for real, but we're supposed to
test his or her claim before admitting it as such, namely
as for real. A few words often are more than enough, as
we often see on these boards.
Those who have real attainments don't boast of them,
and if they do, will pass any test easily, for the simple
reason that their attainments are for real. They'll
welcome tests, for the latter will only serve to prove
their claims (though they should not have made the
claims in the first place, if their attainments are for
real).
Tang Huyen |
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Lhamo
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:41 pm Post subject: Is being abusive a zen thing? |
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Okay, I think I'm figuring out a few things about Zen.
Is it true that Zen students are subjected to verbal abuse by their
teachers, which they then imitate on others?
This is completely alien to me, having only been exposed to Tibetan
buddhism where the teachers are usually gentle and kind, knowing that
the tendency of students is to imitate their teachers. If they use
wrathful means, it is rare enough that the student cannot mistake it for
normal behavior that they should imitate.
I'm reading Tang's previous post now, maybe that will give me more
insights ... but I'm leaning more and more to "Zen is not buddhism."
- Lhamo |
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NeoLazarusx
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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"Evelyn Ruut" <mama-lion@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:sZ72b.47374$Sq.7772446@twister.nyc.rr.com...
| Quote: | For the record, to correct the kind of thinking this subject title might
imply;
I claim nothing more than any other normal person if they knew what to
listen for, or to intuit, if they allowed themselves the freedom to hear
or
feel. All being "psychic" means is that you know how to listen to your
hunches. Everyone has them, not everyone listens to them.
--
Evelyn
"Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is,
having
nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well
burst
into laughter." -Longchenpa
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except that most everyone has learned to call it 'intuition' so as to avoid
any ridicule associated with the word 'psychic'.
-NL
NAX |
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Evelyn Ruut
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:42 pm Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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"NeoLazarusx" <neolazarusx@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vkkhcol2c88796@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: | "Evelyn Ruut" <mama-lion@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:sZ72b.47374$Sq.7772446@twister.nyc.rr.com...
For the record, to correct the kind of thinking this subject title might
imply;
I claim nothing more than any other normal person if they knew what to
listen for, or to intuit, if they allowed themselves the freedom to hear
or
feel. All being "psychic" means is that you know how to listen to your
hunches. Everyone has them, not everyone listens to them.
--
Evelyn
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| Quote: | except that most everyone has learned to call it 'intuition' so as to
avoid
any ridicule associated with the word 'psychic'.
-NL
NAX
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Dear Neo,
Yes, of course that is the current Politically Correct term nowadays.
Clairvoyant, clairaudient, intuitive, psychic, empathic...... new name, same
game.
Ridicule says more about the ones doing the ridiculing than the object of
their ridicule.
The single biggest obstacle to anyone experiencing these things is the
belief that you can't. Once you remove that obstacle, it is a faculty that
is free to function. Self doubt obscures it instantly.
But even then it isn't something like a light switch you can turn on or off
at will, or subject to tests by goons for their amusement.
--
Evelyn
"Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having
nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst
into laughter." -Longchenpa |
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Evelyn Ruut
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:49 pm Post subject: Re: Tang boasts of pissing people off? |
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"Lhamo" <lhamo@real.email.address.not> wrote in message
news:3F4A2747.8010702@real.email.address.not...
| Quote: |
Tang Huyen wrote:
What matters is that my pals and I can almost induce
some people to blow on mere words, even if they
claim to be able to listen to their hunches. And we can
do it routinely, day in day out, month in month out,
year in year out.
Tang Huyen
So you are confessing that you are intentionally a rude adolescent prick
"year in and year out"?
- Lhamo
|
It is the simplest principle around. Ridicule others so that you look
bigger. They do it in playgrounds, Some do it on the newsgroups.
Read what he writes about others. It reveals what he thinks of himself.
All that stuff about self hatred and blowing up and psychological breakdowns
and all that stuff..... it speaks volumes.
A wonderful teacher I knew used to tell people how great they were, how very
wise, how intelligent, how enlightened they were. It wasn't empty
flattery, it was a lesson about what sort of a world he created around him,
surrounded by wonderful beings. Not only that it made people open up to
him, feel good about themselves. He discovered a great secret, I think.
--
Evelyn
"Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having
nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst
into laughter." -Longchenpa |
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Lhamo
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:20 am Post subject: Evelyn's wise words |
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Evelyn Ruut wrote:
| Quote: | A wonderful teacher I knew used to tell people how great they were, how very
wise, how intelligent, how enlightened they were. It wasn't empty
flattery, it was a lesson about what sort of a world he created around him,
surrounded by wonderful beings. Not only that it made people open up to
him, feel good about themselves. He discovered a great secret, I think.
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Evelyn may have flakey views about telepathy (what does anyone really
know about telepathy anyway?), but this is just beautiful.
- Lhamo |
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Lhamo
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:35 am Post subject: Re: Is being abusive a zen thing? |
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Fix your !@#$% clock.
- Lhamo
Collectively Unconscious wrote: |
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Tang Huyen
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:59 am Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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Collectively Unconscious wrote:
| Quote: | How do you make effective tests for irreproducible
events you don't understand?
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Statistically. Throw a test, check whether the claimant
has the right hunch, throw another test, etc. If over a
course of several tests, the batting average is high, the
claimant justly claims good hunches; if the batting
average is low, the claimant wrongly claims good
hunches.
If over time, the claimant repeatedly misinterprets
signs (as present in posts from others) and ends up
with a high rate of failure, even when the average
sinner in the street who has no notion of
supernatural powers can easily pick up the cues,
then the claimant has either no hunches (success rate
equals random) or has bad hunches (success rate is
less than random).
It is like driving a car or using a computer: you don't
need to know how cars operate to drive them, just as
you don't need to know how computers operate to
use them. But if the car runs well or if the computer
does what it is supposed to do, then you know that
they work. Contrariwise if the car breaks or the
computer crashes, you know that they fail.
Tang Huyen |
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Collectively Unconscious
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:00 am Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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How do you make effective tests for irreproducible events you don't
understand?
Tang Huyen wrote:
| Quote: | I have no problems with claims, so long as the claimants can prove
them, and the best way for them to prove them is for others to test
them on them. To make claims is to ask for tests.
If people claim hunches and how to listen to them, let's test them
on them. Simple enough. |
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Collectively Unconscious
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:10 am Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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The first test is can you find any one gullible and naive enough to put
up with you long enough to take your next test?
A closed mind is far worse than a soft one.
Tang Huyen wrote:
| Quote: |
Evelyn Ruut wrote:
Besides do you REALLY think I would cooperate
with you or your pals on such a thing?
Yet another claim.
What matters is that my pals and I can almost induce
some people to blow on mere words, even if they
claim to be able to listen to their hunches. And we can
do it routinely, day in day out, month in month out,
year in year out.
Tang Huyen
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Return of the BWZ
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:20 am Post subject: Re: Is being abusive a zen thing? |
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You're quite deceitful in saying such a thing Lhamo - Milrepa's teacher was
no walk in the park either. You must know such a thing, and yet you plead
ignorance.
Sean
"Lhamo" <lhamo@real.email.address.not> wrote in message
news:3F4A2ED2.4090206@real.email.address.not...
| Quote: |
Okay, I think I'm figuring out a few things about Zen.
Is it true that Zen students are subjected to verbal abuse by their
teachers, which they then imitate on others?
This is completely alien to me, having only been exposed to Tibetan
buddhism where the teachers are usually gentle and kind, knowing that
the tendency of students is to imitate their teachers. If they use
wrathful means, it is rare enough that the student cannot mistake it for
normal behavior that they should imitate.
I'm reading Tang's previous post now, maybe that will give me more
insights ... but I'm leaning more and more to "Zen is not buddhism."
- Lhamo
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Collectively Unconscious
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:25 am Post subject: Re: Is being abusive a zen thing? |
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Usenet is not zen. Nor are these people representative of zen.
Forming your opinions here is not a very wise thing to do.
Zen is at least as much buddhism as Tibetan buddhism.
Both have absorbed influences from the cultures they formed in.
Both are composed largely of ordinary people with all the faults of
ordinary people. Abuse, scandal, infighting, pride, brand loyalty...
If you are really interested, go to a zendo and you will know what that
zendo's zen is like and if they are abusive. Repeat as needed.
You might find the narrower focus and more reductionist approach a nice
complement to what you already know.
Enlightenment is a gordian knot which some learn to untie and some learn
to cut through. How you penetrate your knot is not as important as doing it.
Lhamo wrote:
| Quote: |
Okay, I think I'm figuring out a few things about Zen.
Is it true that Zen students are subjected to verbal abuse by their
teachers, which they then imitate on others?
This is completely alien to me, having only been exposed to Tibetan
buddhism where the teachers are usually gentle and kind, knowing that
the tendency of students is to imitate their teachers. If they use
wrathful means, it is rare enough that the student cannot mistake it for
normal behavior that they should imitate.
I'm reading Tang's previous post now, maybe that will give me more
insights ... but I'm leaning more and more to "Zen is not buddhism."
- Lhamo
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Evelyn Ruut
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:41 am Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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"Night_Seer" <ecamacho4 at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
news:av6dnWs7qsCJHteiRVn-hw@speakeasy.net...
| Quote: | Mine are psychedelic powers...I can make grass wave to and fro just by
looking at it.
--
Night_Seer
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LOL!
--
Evelyn
"Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having
nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst
into laughter." -Longchenpa |
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Night_Seer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:43 am Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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Mine are psychedelic powers...I can make grass wave to and fro just by
looking at it.
--
Night_Seer
"Collectively Unconscious" <swarm.no@spam.provalue.net> wrote in message
news:3F4A929B.6000405@spam.provalue.net...
| Quote: | I have psydekick powers.
NeoLazarusx wrote:
except that most everyone has learned to call it 'intuition' so as to
avoid
any ridicule associated with the word 'psychic'.
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Evelyn Ruut
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:43 am Post subject: Re: Evelyn claims psychic powers! (was Re: Karma) |
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"Tang Huyen" <tang_huyen@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3F4A6A98.64413E38@yahoo.com...
| Quote: |
Collectively Unconscious wrote:
How do you make effective tests for irreproducible
events you don't understand?
Statistically. Throw a test, check whether the claimant
has the right hunch, throw another test, etc. If over a
course of several tests, the batting average is high, the
claimant justly claims good hunches; if the batting
average is low, the claimant wrongly claims good
hunches.
If over time, the claimant repeatedly misinterprets
signs (as present in posts from others) and ends up
with a high rate of failure, even when the average
sinner in the street who has no notion of
supernatural powers can easily pick up the cues,
then the claimant has either no hunches (success rate
equals random) or has bad hunches (success rate is
less than random).
It is like driving a car or using a computer: you don't
need to know how cars operate to drive them, just as
you don't need to know how computers operate to
use them. But if the car runs well or if the computer
does what it is supposed to do, then you know that
they work. Contrariwise if the car breaks or the
computer crashes, you know that they fail.
Tang Huyen
|
You call THAT a test of psychic abilities?
I know enough about it to know that would be totally ridiculous!
ROTFLMAOPMP!
--
Evelyn
"Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having
nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst
into laughter." -Longchenpa |
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