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Harold Kupp
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 Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:09 am Post subject: Kikers - please explain |
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Kikers can you explain why the following statement
(with Papal approval) is something other than
worship of Mary?
"5. Legionaries should undertake De Montfort's True Devotion
To Mary. (pg 142)
It is desirable that the practice of the Legionary devotion to
Mary should be rounded off and given the distinctive character
which has been taught by St. Louis-Marie de Montfort under the
titles of "The True Devotion" or the ""Slavery Of Mary"...
That Devotion requires the formal entry into a compact with Mary,
whereby one gives to her one's whole self with all its thoughts
and deeds and possessions, both spiritual and temporal, past,
present, and future, without the reservation of the smallest part
or the slightest little thing.
In a word, the giver places himself in a condition equivalent to
that of a slave possessing nothing of his own, and wholly
dependent on, and utterly at the disposal of Mary."
Please don't bother with your "dulias" and your "hyperdulias" - the above
statement teaches worship of Mary and all the hair splitting will not
change the fact that the above teaching has Papal approval.
Can you deal with that statement without changing the subject?
HK
According to "The Legion Of Mary" The Roman hierarchy believes that
Mary is essential to salvation.
"The Legion of Mary is an Association of Catholics who, with
the sanction of the church and under the powerful leadership of Mary
Immaculate, Mediatrix of all Graces...have formed themselves into a
legion for service in the warfare which is perpetually waged by the
church against the world and its evil powers." (pg 1)
Later, under the chapter heading "If Mary Were But Known" is the
following quote: (pg 16)
"Thousands of souls perish BECAUSE MARY IS WITHHELD FROM THEM.
It is the miserable unworthy shadow which we call our devotion to the
Blessed Virgin, that is the cause of all these wants and blights,
these evils and omissions and declines. Yet if we are to believe the
revelations of the saints, God is pressing for a greater, a wider, a
stronger, quite another devotion to His Blessed Mother...(sic) Let a
man but try it for himself, and his surprise at the graces it brings
with it, and the transformation it causes in his soul, will soon
convince him of its otherwise almost incredible efficacy as a means
FOR THE SALVATION OF MEN, and for the coming of the Kingdom of Christ.
"God is willing to give us all; all now depends on us, and on THEE
by whom all is transmitted, O Mother of God! All depends on the
union of men with her who receives it all from God." - (Gratry)"
"5. Legionaries should undertake De Montfort's True Devotion
To Mary. (pg 142)
It is desirable that the practice of the Legionary devotion to
Mary should be rounded off and given the distinctive character
which has been taught by St. Louis-Marie de Montfort under the
titles of "The True Devotion" or the ""Slavery Of Mary"...
That Devotion requires the formal entry into a compact with Mary,
whereby one gives to her one's whole self with all its thoughts
and deeds and possessions, both spiritual and temporal, past,
present, and future, without the reservation of the smallest part
or the slightest little thing.
In a word, the giver places himself in a condition equivalent to
that of a slave possessing nothing of his own, and wholly
dependent on, and utterly at the disposal of Mary."
A slave to Mary, what a concept! If I were to do those
things what would I have left for Jesus Christ? Sadly, this
handbook is filled with these blasphemies. I will quote one more
passage that will fill the Christian reader with loathing for the
organization which produced and published it...
"Let us recall here, as proof of the dependence we ought to have
on our Blessed Lady, the example which The Father, the Son, and
the Holy Ghost give of this dependence. The Father has not
given, AND DOES NOT GIVE, His Son except by her.
God the Son has not been formed for the whole world in general
except by her; and He is not daily formed and engendered except by
her in union with the Holy Ghost; neither does He communicate His
merits and virtues except by her.
The Holy Ghost has not formed Jesus Christ except by her; NEITHER
DOES HE FORM THE MEMBERS OF OUR LORD'S MYSTICAL BODY
EXCEPT BY HER; and through her ALONE does He dispense His favours
and His gifts."
(St Louis de Montfort). (pg 169)
If The Holy Spirit does not form the members of Our Lord's body
(i.e. Christians) except by Mary, then no one can be saved except
through Mary.
This book was written, produced and published by Catholics. Inside the
cover page is the Imprimatur (the official approval to publish) of:
+Joannes
Archiepiscopus Ludovicopolianus
Ludovicopoli, Die 14 IulII, Anno 1941
Following that there is an approval letter from the Vatican, from the
office of the Segreteria Di Stato (Secretary of State) which says in
part:
"His Holiness has followed with paternal interest over the years
the progress of the Legion as it swelled the army of those
devoted and stalwart clients of Mary who are combatting the
forces of evil in the world today.
...His Holiness would have me to convey as a token of His
special benevolence...the Apostolic Benediction.
Sincerely yours in Christ
JB Montini
Pro Secretary
On the next page is a letter From "PIUS XI. to the Legion of Mary"
which says:
"We give a very special blessing to this beautiful and holy
work - the Legion Of Mary. Its name speaks for itself. The
image of Mary Immaculate on its standard portrays high and holy
things."
Despite the protestations of our local Roman Catholics
Mary Worship is encouraged, endorsed and blessed by
the heirarchy of the Vatican. (Apostolic blessing see below)
Papal Blessing of slavery to Mary:
Pope John Paul II to the Legion of Mary
Part of an address delivered by the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II,
to a group of Italian legionaries on 30th October 1982
....My predecessors, beginning with Pius XI, have addressed words of
appreciation to the Legion of Mary, and I myself on 10 May 1979, when
receiving one of your first delegations, recalled with great pleasure the
occasions I had previously had to come in contact with the Legion, in
Paris, Belgium and Poland, and then, as Bishop of Rome, in the course
of my pastoral visits to the parishes of the city...
.... Yours is an eminently Marian spirituality, not only because the
Legion glories in carrying Mary's name as its unfurled banner, but above
all because it bases its method of spirituality and apostolate on the
dynamic principle of UNION WITH MARY, on the truth of the intimate
participation of the Virgin Mary in the plan of salvation...
....In this perspective of faith and love ***I impart the Apostolic
Blessing to you from my heart.***
From my point of view, any organization which could produce such
blasphemy cannot be trusted and must be renounced publicly. I will be
interested in your response to this message. |
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Andrew
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Kikers - please explain |
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"Harold Kupp" wrote:
| Quote: | Kikers can you explain why the following statement
(with Papal approval) is something other than
worship of Mary?
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Aaron Kikers does not deny Mary worship, so why should he explain it? . . . . . . .
"And hyperdulia is Veneration or WORSHIP given to the Virgin Mary as the most
exalted of mere creatures; higher veneration than dulia. In other words, SHE HAS
A SPECIAL KIND OF WORSHIP ascribed only to her and thus separate from the
dulia."
~A. Kikers
| Quote: | From my point of view, any organization which could produce such
blasphemy cannot be trusted and must be renounced publicly. (HK)
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But do not renounce the Catholic -people- in general. You must love them
as Christ does even loves them, if you are to accomplish anything for good.
Andrew |
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Kikers
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: Kikers - please explain |
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--
-Aaron Kiker
-Allison Kiker
Spring, Texas
"Andrew" <andrew.321@usa.net> wrote in message
news:bi91o2$6q87m$1@ID-97599.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: |
"Harold Kupp" wrote:
Kikers can you explain why the following statement
(with Papal approval) is something other than
worship of Mary?
Aaron Kikers does not deny Mary worship, so why should he explain it? . .
.. . . . .
"And hyperdulia is Veneration or WORSHIP given to the Virgin Mary as the
most
exalted of mere creatures; higher veneration than dulia. In other words,
SHE HAS
A SPECIAL KIND OF WORSHIP ascribed only to her and thus separate from the
dulia."
~A. Kikers
Thank you Andrew for putting that in a nutshell. I can't see taking this |
debate much further. Yes worship exists, but it is a worship reserved only
for her. As such it does not incroach upon worship reserved for the Father.
I beleive that is the big issue, usurping worship reserved for the Father.
I can't help it if latria, dulia, and hyperdulia don't quite make it in the
English translation. We know this. Think about the term "making love." If
only it were used simply to describe relations with a man and wife, but it
can also be found in story, poem and song to describe relations with two
unmarrieds, two married not marrie to one another, a married and an
unmarried, two men, two women, siblings, close relatives.
I would not presume to know more about Adventism than its adherents please
give Catholics the same benefit when they say they do not worship Mary (in
the same way as they worship the Father). I've run into this same
Salem-esque arguing regarding the "Jesuit Oath" where one has to prove a
negative. "Prove you don't believe in the Jesuit oath," "Prove you don't
worship Mary." Kind of like the Salem witch trials "Prove you're not a
witch."
| Quote: |
From my point of view, any organization which could produce such
blasphemy cannot be trusted and must be renounced publicly. (HK)
But do not renounce the Catholic -people- in general. You must love them
as Christ does even loves them, if you are to accomplish anything for
good.
Well, that's a welcome switch from the label "Vatican super terrorist" that |
I received in this NG once.
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Andrew
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:28 am Post subject: Re: Kikers - please explain |
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| Quote: | But do not renounce the Catholic -people- in general. You must love them
as Christ does even loves them, if you are to accomplish anything for good.
Well, that's a welcome switch from the label "Vatican super terrorist" that
I received in this NG once.
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You must be thinking of the crossposting cyberdemoniac, also known as the
ranter. I wouldn't pay too much attention to him if I were you. We know his
illness, but that doesn't mean there aren't serious heretical errors in Catholic
teaching, practice and papal history. Your and our peace in the final day will
be our adherence to Christ and obedience to Him.
Andrew |
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Kikers
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:15 am Post subject: Re: Kikers - please explain |
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"Andrew" <andrew.321@usa.net> wrote in message
news:bibkup$7g5nc$1@ID-97599.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: |
But do not renounce the Catholic -people- in general. You must love
them
as Christ does even loves them, if you are to accomplish anything for
good.
Well, that's a welcome switch from the label "Vatican super terrorist"
that
I received in this NG once.
You must be thinking of the crossposting cyberdemoniac, also known as the
ranter. I wouldn't pay too much attention to him if I were you. We know
his
illness, but that doesn't mean there aren't serious heretical errors in
Catholic
teaching, practice and papal history. Your and our peace in the final day
will
be our adherence to Christ and obedience to Him.
|
I know what you're saying, but it is interesting you use the word
"heretical." Just as we found that "hyperdulia" refers to devotion solely
directed at Mary, heresy/heretic is a title reserved peculiarly for people
who believe doctrines outside the Roman Catholic Church.
American Heritage Dictionary:
A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly
dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.
Princeton Univ. Worldnet:
n 1: a person who holds religious beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the
Roman Catholic Church
Webster's Revised Unabridged:
2. (R. C. Ch.) One who having made a profession of Christian belief,
deliberately and pertinaciously refuses to believe one or more of the
articles of faith ``determined by the authority of the universal church.''
-A. Kiker
Spring, Texas
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Andrew
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Kikers - please explain (heretic) |
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"Kikers" wrote:
| Quote: | "Andrew" wrote:
We know his illness, but that doesn't mean there aren't serious heretical
errors in Catholic teaching, practice and papal history. Your and our
peace in the final day will be in our adherence to Christ and obedience
to Him.
I know what you're saying, but it is interesting you use the word
"heretical." Just as we found that "hyperdulia" refers to devotion solely
directed at Mary, heresy/heretic is a title reserved peculiarly for people
who believe doctrines outside the Roman Catholic Church.
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Yes, I should be careful in using a term which was chiefly used by the persecut-
ing, antichrist power. The principle of charging others with unorthodoxy and
then persecuting them goes back through all sacred history; and it seems almost
invariably that the ones who are persecuted are the ones that are the honored of
heaven, and the ones who give strength to the persecution are those who are the
enemies of God and truth.
We could start a study on this with Christ and His persecutors, and then go back
or forward from there. If you go forward, the greatest persecuting element has
been the papacy with it's dreaded engine of the inquisition using pain and torture
against those whom they declared to be heretics.
| Quote: | American Heritage Dictionary:
A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly
dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.
Princeton Univ. Worldnet:
n 1: a person who holds religious beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the
Roman Catholic Church
Webster's Revised Unabridged:
2. (R. C. Ch.) One who having made a profession of Christian belief,
deliberately and pertinaciously refuses to believe one or more of the
articles of faith ``determined by the authority of the universal church.''
-A. Kiker
Spring, Texas
Andrew
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Kikers
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Kikers - please explain (heretic) |
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"Andrew" <andrew.321@usa.net> wrote in message
news:bil5od$al5se$1@ID-97599.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: |
"Kikers" wrote:
"Andrew" wrote:
We know his illness, but that doesn't mean there aren't serious
heretical
errors in Catholic teaching, practice and papal history. Your and our
peace in the final day will be in our adherence to Christ and
obedience
to Him.
I know what you're saying, but it is interesting you use the word
"heretical." Just as we found that "hyperdulia" refers to devotion
solely
directed at Mary, heresy/heretic is a title reserved peculiarly for
people
who believe doctrines outside the Roman Catholic Church.
Yes, I should be careful in using a term which was chiefly used by the
persecut-
ing, antichrist power. The principle of charging others with
unorthodoxy and
then persecuting them goes back through all sacred history;
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Happens right here in this NG, too.
and it seems almost
| Quote: | invariably that the ones who are persecuted are the ones that are the
honored of
heaven,
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Not "invariably." A persecuted athiest will probably not look upon Heaven's
gate
and the ones who give strength to the persecution are those who are the
| Quote: | enemies of God and truth.
We could start a study on this with Christ and His persecutors, and then
go back
or forward from there. If you go forward, the greatest persecuting
element has
been the papacy with it's dreaded engine of the inquisition using pain and
torture
against those whom they declared to be heretics.
I agree, you will see persecution, pain, and suffering. But how do you |
arrive at the Papacy as having the "greatest persecuting element." Has
anyone gone and ranked them? Why hasn't this vast persecuting element
prevented Catholics from being persecuted both now (East Timor, China) and
in the past (Acadian deportation, creation of Maryland)?
--
-A. Kiker
Spring, Texas |
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Doug
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:43 am Post subject: Re: Kikers - please explain (heretic) |
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| Quote: |
Yes, I should be careful in using a term which was chiefly used by the
persecut-
ing, antichrist power.
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Actually, the term 'heretic' applies not to a Protestant, but to a Catholic.
Thus, Luther was technically a heretic, but you are not. From the CCC:
"818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation
those who at present are born into these communities [that
resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the
faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect
and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith
in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right
1271
to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as
brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."27"
| Quote: | The principle of charging others with unorthodoxy and
then persecuting them goes back through all sacred history; and it seems
almost
invariably that the ones who are persecuted are the ones that are the honored
of
heaven, and the ones who give strength to the persecution are those who are
the
enemies of God and truth.
|
Actually, this is not so. The Moslems were driven out of Spain by the
Catholics, but I don't think you'd consider them ipso facto honored in heaven
for that fact. In addition, the Catholic Church suffered enormous persecution
in England, and thousands of Catholics lost their lives, thousands more
deprived of liberty and property, and the Church was driven underground. Using
your reasoning, it must be that the Catholic Church is the true Church, and its
adherents are the honored of heaven. In addition, about a quarter of a million
to a million Catholics were killed in Mexico in the first half of the last
century just for being Catholic. The Catholic Church was also outlawed there
and driven underground.
| Quote: |
We could start a study on this with Christ and His persecutors, and then go
back
or forward from there. If you go forward, the greatest persecuting element
has
been the papacy with it's dreaded engine of the inquisition using pain and
torture
against those whom they declared to be heretics.
|
Not to defend it, but it was the civil authorities at the time who did that,
not the Church. I might add that those same civil authorities did whatever
they could to gain political control, and did the same whether they were
currying Catholic or Protestant favor. I may be mistaken, as I don't have the
source in front of me, but I believe this fact vexed Luther very much in his
later years.
So do you think that because the Catholic Church has faced horrific
persecution, that it thus justifies Catholicism? If not, then why would it
justify anything else?
Doug |
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Andrew
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Kikers - please explain (persecution) |
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"Kikers"wrote:
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How does that put the papacy ahead of Stalin, Hitler, Gengis Khan? That was
the question. How did you get "greatest"
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I was thinking in the light of the arena of -sacred- history and the persecution
of those charged with unorthodoxy and referred to as "heretics," not secular
history.
| Quote: | At any rate, among the greatest and being the greatest aren't the same.
Remember dulia, hyperdulia, latria? Nuances of meaning.
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Right..probably not greater than Stalin except perhaps if you multiply the
average number of heretics tortured and killed per year by the number of
years the inquisition was in operation.
To avoid argument here, we'll just say, "AMONG the greatest."
Andrew |
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