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Susan Maneck
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 Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:50 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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| Quote: | He said Divinity contains All and is not contained. Unless you are saying
that material or non-material realities are somehow outside of "All", not a
part of Truth or real existence.
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I see what you are sayng now. I strongly suspect that this is a
mistranslation. Otherwise it would be pantheism, which elsewhere in
the Writings is rejected by Abdu'l-Baha. Unfortunately, we do not have
any of the original transcripts for *Abdu'l-Baha in London* and
therefore I would not rely on that source. |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:45 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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Pantheism means everything is God. Baha'is believe everything emanates from
God, a significant difference.
"Therefore, the proceeding of the human spirits from God is through
emanation. When it is said in the Bible that God breathed His spirit into
man, this spirit is that which, like the discourse, emanates from the Real
Speaker, taking effect in the reality of man." (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered
Questions, p. 206)
"This much can be stated, that the reality of man is a pure and unknown
essence constituting a depository, emanating from the light of the Ancient
Entity -- God."
(Compilations, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 405)
"If we are of those who perceive, we realize that the bounties of God
manifest themselves continuously, even as the rays of the sun unceasingly
emanate from the solar center. The phenomenal world through the resplendent
effulgence of the sun is radiant and bright. In the same way the realm of
hearts and spirits is illumined and resuscitated through the shining rays of
the Sun of Reality and the bounties of the love of God. Thereby the world of
existence, the kingdom of hearts and spirits, is ever quickened into life.
Were it not for the love of God, hearts would be inanimate, spirits would
with and the reality of man would be bereft of the everlasting Bestowals."
(Compilations, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 357)
"The rays emanate from the sun and reveal its nature, but are not the sun
itself. Whatsoever can be discerned on earth amply demonstrateth the power
of God, His knowledge and the outpourings of His bounty, while He Himself is
immeasurably exalted above all creatures." (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of
Baha'u'llah, p. 60)
I could go on, but Pantheism, as Abdu'l-Baha states in his exposition called
"Pantheism" published in "Some Answered Questions" (P.296) differs from
Baha'i teachings in that "this Holy Essence is the sum of the divine
perfections; and all creatures are favored by the bounty of resplendency
through emanation, and receive the lights, the perfection and the beauty of
Its Kingdom, in the same way that all earthly creatures obtain the bounty of
the light of the rays of the sun, but the sun does not descend and does not
abase itself to the favored realities of earthly beings.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 296)
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:vPWdnVwG9OJvDgLanZ2dnUVZ_tqtnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | He said Divinity contains All and is not contained. Unless you are saying
that material or non-material realities are somehow outside of "All", not
a
part of Truth or real existence.
I see what you are sayng now. I strongly suspect that this is a
mistranslation. Otherwise it would be pantheism, which elsewhere in
the Writings is rejected by Abdu'l-Baha. Unfortunately, we do not have
any of the original transcripts for *Abdu'l-Baha in London* and
therefore I would not rely on that source.
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:17 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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| Quote: | Emanation is not the same as containing All.
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How is it referred to in the original Arabic or Persian, so that the "All"
could be translated with a capital "A" to refer to God?
It does bother me that the quote sounds like All is contained in Divinity,
but it could also be interpreted that They contain Each Other.
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:vPWdnVwG9OJvDgLanZ2dnUVZ_tqtnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | He said Divinity contains All and is not contained. Unless you are saying
that material or non-material realities are somehow outside of "All", not
a
part of Truth or real existence.
I see what you are sayng now. I strongly suspect that this is a
mistranslation. Otherwise it would be pantheism, which elsewhere in
the Writings is rejected by Abdu'l-Baha. Unfortunately, we do not have
any of the original transcripts for *Abdu'l-Baha in London* and
therefore I would not rely on that source.
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:24 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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On 1/30/08, Kent Johnson <kent@compx2.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Emanation is not the same as containing All.
How is it referred to in the original Arabic or Persian, so that the "All"
could be translated with a capital "A" to refer to God?
|
Dear Kent,
There are no upper or lower case letters in Arabic. This would have
been the decision on the part of the translator. And since we don't
have the original Persian talk we have no idea what Abdu'l-Baha really
said.
| Quote: |
It does bother me that the quote sounds like All is contained in Divinity,
but it could also be interpreted that They contain Each Other.
|
Either way would be pantheistic. That's why I doubt the translation.
This really doesn't sound like Abdu'l-Baha.
*Abdu'l-Baha in London* along with *Divine Philosophy* is about the
most unreliable compilations of Abdu'l-Baha's talks. Some Answered
Questions is the *most* reliable, Paris Talks comes next, and
Promulgation of Universal Peace is about half-way in between.
warmest, Susan |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:23 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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If the word "all" were not capitalized it would not be pantheistic.
"Divinity is actual Truth and real existence, and not any representation of
it. Divinity itself contains All, and is not contained. (Abdu'l-Baha,
Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 22)
Divinity contains real existence, everything, all that exists, and is not
contained.
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qe-dncEqw8bgQD3anZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | On 1/30/08, Kent Johnson <kent@compx2.com> wrote:
Emanation is not the same as containing All.
How is it referred to in the original Arabic or Persian, so that the
"All"
could be translated with a capital "A" to refer to God?
Dear Kent,
There are no upper or lower case letters in Arabic. This would have
been the decision on the part of the translator. And since we don't
have the original Persian talk we have no idea what Abdu'l-Baha really
said.
It does bother me that the quote sounds like All is contained in
Divinity,
but it could also be interpreted that They contain Each Other.
Either way would be pantheistic. That's why I doubt the translation.
This really doesn't sound like Abdu'l-Baha.
*Abdu'l-Baha in London* along with *Divine Philosophy* is about the
most unreliable compilations of Abdu'l-Baha's talks. Some Answered
Questions is the *most* reliable, Paris Talks comes next, and
Promulgation of Universal Peace is about half-way in between.
warmest, Susan
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:28 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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| Quote: | Divinity contains real existence, everything, all that exists, and is not
contained.
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Dear Kent,
For Abdu'l-Baha 'real existence' is spiritual, not material
Observe: those who in appearance were physically alive, Christ
considered dead; for life is the eternal life, and existence is the
real existence.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 101)
warmest, Susan
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:14 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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On Jan 30, 2008, at 2:17 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | Emanation is not the same as containing All.
How is it referred to in the original Arabic or Persian, so that the
"All"
could be translated with a capital "A" to refer to God?
It does bother me that the quote sounds like All is contained in
Divinity,
but it could also be interpreted that They contain Each Other.
--Kent
|
I am a living soul in seed form that has a body and mind to serve God
and humanity, as certain quotes appear to be saying. In my body are
minerals. All minerals are contained in me. However the "me" is more
than just the minerals, etc. Therefor there is "me" (divinity) and
what is contained in me (material), metaphorically speaking. My body
contains all but all is not my body. I contain all but all is not "I".
I tend to see God as an Absolute Reality and everything else as
Relative Reality. According to what I understand we can independently
investigate reality but we cannot know the essence of a thing. So
reality to us then is everything but the essence. And everything else
has been identified and named and strangely all these aspects of
reality group themselves in three levels, i.e. what appears in the
Three Dimensions of Physical Space, the Fourth Dimension of Time and a
proposed Fifth Dimension of Purpose and Power, all of which are named
and defined in the Writings.
The Mineral, Vegetable and Animal are contained in the Human and more
for we have an Intellect and a spirit that is not found in the former
and yet we can not know the essence of the former or ourselves, let
alone the Manifestation and God.
This is what I see in the Writings and many quotes appear to be showing
us the reality of things but yet on the other hand we cannot really
know the reality of anything because part of a things reality is its
essence and we are told in the Writings we cannot know the essence of
anything. However when the Master said we cannot know the reality of
anything I don't think he meant we cannot know certain things about a
thing, such as what exists in Three Dimensions of Physical Space, the
Fourth Dimension of Time and a Fifth of Purpose and Powers. So we know
a things Name, its Immediate Acts and its Qualities, its Life Pattern,
its Purpose and Powers to achieve its purpose and to us that is the
reality of what we face and must deal with on this plane.
There is more to all this but this is the best I can offer from my own
limited understanding.
regards,
doug |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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Are you suggesting that Abdu'l-Baha differentiates between material
existence and spiritual existence? That His use of the words "real
existence" refers only to spiritual existence and not to material existence?
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:57CdnUutaoLxczzanZ2dnUVZ_v6rnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | Divinity contains real existence, everything, all that exists, and is not
contained.
Dear Kent,
For Abdu'l-Baha 'real existence' is spiritual, not material
Observe: those who in appearance were physically alive, Christ
considered dead; for life is the eternal life, and existence is the
real existence.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 101)
warmest, Susan
..
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Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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Kent,
As far as we know, "Abdu'l-Baha in London" is not authenticated. This
indicates that there is no original text. Rather the book has been written
up from notes taken by the compiliers of what Abdu'l-Baha is remembered to
have said. We have no idea whether he spoke then in Farsi or in Arabic or
what word He used for any of what he may have said at the time. Look for
the same word in the same context in His Tablets, Selections, or SAQ.
Dominius vobiscum.
Richard.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
To: <bahai-faith@bcca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: Kingdom of Names
| Quote: | If the word "all" were not capitalized it would not be pantheistic.
"Divinity is actual Truth and real existence, and not any representation
of
it. Divinity itself contains All, and is not contained. (Abdu'l-Baha,
Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 22)
Divinity contains real existence, everything, all that exists, and is not
contained.
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qe-dncEqw8bgQD3anZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@giganews.com...
On 1/30/08, Kent Johnson <kent@compx2.com> wrote:
Emanation is not the same as containing All.
How is it referred to in the original Arabic or Persian, so that the
"All"
could be translated with a capital "A" to refer to God?
Dear Kent,
There are no upper or lower case letters in Arabic. This would have
been the decision on the part of the translator. And since we don't
have the original Persian talk we have no idea what Abdu'l-Baha really
said.
It does bother me that the quote sounds like All is contained in
Divinity,
but it could also be interpreted that They contain Each Other.
Either way would be pantheistic. That's why I doubt the translation.
This really doesn't sound like Abdu'l-Baha.
*Abdu'l-Baha in London* along with *Divine Philosophy* is about the
most unreliable compilations of Abdu'l-Baha's talks. Some Answered
Questions is the *most* reliable, Paris Talks comes next, and
Promulgation of Universal Peace is about half-way in between.
warmest, Susan
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:12 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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On Jan 30, 2008, at 4:23 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | If the word "all" were not capitalized it would not be pantheistic.
"Divinity is actual Truth and real existence, and not any
representation of
it. Divinity itself contains All, and is not contained. (Abdu'l-Baha,
Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 22)
Divinity contains real existence, everything, all that exists, and is
not
contained.
--Kent
|
Dear friends-
Again I am somewhat confused at all this because of my understanding or
lack of understanding of pantheism I guess.
I have often reviewed SAQ on this subject and for some reason the idea
that if the word "all" were not capitalized it would not be pantheistic
doesn't fit for me.
Here is an excerpt from SAQ.
"Briefly, the superior reality does not descend nor abase itself to
inferior states; then how could it be that the Universal [296] Reality
of God, which is freed from all descriptions and qualifications,
notwithstanding Its absolute sanctity and purity, should resolve Itself
into the forms of the realities of the creatures, which are the source
of imperfections? This is a pure imagination which one cannot conceive.
On the contrary, this Holy Essence is the sum of the divine
perfections; and all creatures are favored by the bounty of
resplendency through emanation, and receive the lights, the perfection
and the beauty of Its Kingdom, in the same way that all earthly
creatures obtain the bounty of the light of the rays of the sun, but
the sun does not descend and does not abase itself to the favored
realities of earthly beings."
I can see that the creation is imperfect and the Creator is perfect and
that Creation emanates from God, but I cannot see how all Creation can
be divine except in a relative sense. In other words all levels of
Creation are levels of emanation. The Light is stronger at one place
and weaker at another it seems.
Containing existence does not mean that what is contained is divine,
does it?
regards,
doug |
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:49 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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On Jan 31, 2008, at 10:57 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | Are you suggesting that Abdu'l-Baha differentiates between material
existence and spiritual existence? That His use of the words "real
existence" refers only to spiritual existence and not to material
existence?
--Kent
|
Kent-
My understanding is that this material world is but a reflection of the
spiritual and thus the "real" world is spiritual. Kind of like looking
in a mirror. I think the Master actually used the analogy of the
mirror image if my memory serves me. Nonetheless this material world
is real to us. I tend to think about how he explained about good and
evil, about how darkness exists because we turn away from the sun and
sin exists because we turn away from the spiritual sun. So the real
world is spiritual and this is a reflection or material world our
bodies live in.
In any case there are many quotes that differentiate between the
material and spiritual worlds as I recall.
doug |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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Hi Doug,
"Containing existence does not mean that what is contained is divine,
does it?"
I believe the issue is that the word that is capitalized must refer to God,
or one of His major attributes. In the case of "All", Susan is complaining
that God is not "all" because if He were everything, that would be
pantheism.
My point is that the Reality of God is a single reality, and there is
nothing that is not within this reality. There is nothing outside the
purview of God. His reality is above and encompasses our reality. The
example Abdu'l-Baha uses is the sun. Though we know there is more to the
sun than we can know, that does not mean the sun is not contained in the
same reality which contains us.
| Quote: | The Light is stronger at one place and weaker at another it seems.
|
Because reality emanates from God does not mean He is His reality.
--Kent
"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:IcCdnWycP54esj_anZ2dnUVZ_u6rnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
On Jan 30, 2008, at 4:23 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:
If the word "all" were not capitalized it would not be pantheistic.
"Divinity is actual Truth and real existence, and not any representation
of
it. Divinity itself contains All, and is not contained. (Abdu'l-Baha,
Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 22)
Divinity contains real existence, everything, all that exists, and is not
contained.
--Kent
Dear friends-
Again I am somewhat confused at all this because of my understanding or
lack of understanding of pantheism I guess.
I have often reviewed SAQ on this subject and for some reason the idea
that if the word "all" were not capitalized it would not be pantheistic
doesn't fit for me.
Here is an excerpt from SAQ.
"Briefly, the superior reality does not descend nor abase itself to
inferior states; then how could it be that the Universal [296] Reality of
God, which is freed from all descriptions and qualifications,
notwithstanding Its absolute sanctity and purity, should resolve Itself
into the forms of the realities of the creatures, which are the source of
imperfections? This is a pure imagination which one cannot conceive.
On the contrary, this Holy Essence is the sum of the divine perfections;
and all creatures are favored by the bounty of resplendency through
emanation, and receive the lights, the perfection and the beauty of Its
Kingdom, in the same way that all earthly creatures obtain the bounty of
the light of the rays of the sun, but the sun does not descend and does
not abase itself to the favored realities of earthly beings."
I can see that the creation is imperfect and the Creator is perfect and
that Creation emanates from God, but I cannot see how all Creation can be
divine except in a relative sense. In other words all levels of Creation
are levels of emanation. The Light is stronger at one place and weaker at
another it seems.
Containing existence does not mean that what is contained is divine, does
it?
regards,
doug
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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On Feb 1, 2008, at 7:10 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Doug,
"Containing existence does not mean that what is contained is divine,
does it?"
I believe the issue is that the word that is capitalized must refer to
God,
or one of His major attributes. In the case of "All", Susan is
complaining
that God is not "all" because if He were everything, that would be
pantheism.
|
Dear Kent-
I did not interpret Susan's opinion as you say. I thought she was
saying that God is not in His Creation for that would be pantheism.
I'm also of the understanding that Creation can not be within God. God
to me is completely separate from His Creation and His Creation is
separate from God. We can create a chair but the chair is not within
us materially, just as an idea. And we cannot become the chair.
However no matter what analogy or logic we use we cannot really know
God.
| Quote: |
My point is that the Reality of God is a single reality, and there is
nothing that is not within this reality. There is nothing outside the
purview of God. His reality is above and encompasses our reality. The
example Abdu'l-Baha uses is the sun. Though we know there is more to
the
sun than we can know, that does not mean the sun is not contained in
the
same reality which contains us.
|
Guess I am sort of lost on this. To me the Writings are clear that God
is a separate Reality that none can reach. The Manifestation is a
separate reality that Creatures cannot reach and Creation is a separate
reality consisting of material and spiritual aspects. We cannot know
the reality of God nor the reality of the Manifestation but we can know
the reality of Creation but not in the absolute sense for we cannot
know the essence of anything.
| Quote: |
The Light is stronger at one place and weaker at another it seems.
Because reality emanates from God does not mean He is His reality.
|
I do not understand. Can you clarify?
doug
| Quote: |
--Kent
"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:IcCdnWycP54esj_anZ2dnUVZ_u6rnZ2d@giganews.com...
On Jan 30, 2008, at 4:23 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:
If the word "all" were not capitalized it would not be pantheistic.
"Divinity is actual Truth and real existence, and not any
representation
of
it. Divinity itself contains All, and is not contained.
(Abdu'l-Baha,
Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 22)
Divinity contains real existence, everything, all that exists, and
is not
contained.
--Kent
Dear friends-
Again I am somewhat confused at all this because of my understanding
or
lack of understanding of pantheism I guess.
I have often reviewed SAQ on this subject and for some reason the idea
that if the word "all" were not capitalized it would not be
pantheistic
doesn't fit for me.
Here is an excerpt from SAQ.
"Briefly, the superior reality does not descend nor abase itself to
inferior states; then how could it be that the Universal [296]
Reality of
God, which is freed from all descriptions and qualifications,
notwithstanding Its absolute sanctity and purity, should resolve
Itself
into the forms of the realities of the creatures, which are the
source of
imperfections? This is a pure imagination which one cannot conceive.
On the contrary, this Holy Essence is the sum of the divine
perfections;
and all creatures are favored by the bounty of resplendency through
emanation, and receive the lights, the perfection and the beauty of
Its
Kingdom, in the same way that all earthly creatures obtain the bounty
of
the light of the rays of the sun, but the sun does not descend and
does
not abase itself to the favored realities of earthly beings."
I can see that the creation is imperfect and the Creator is perfect
and
that Creation emanates from God, but I cannot see how all Creation
can be
divine except in a relative sense. In other words all levels of
Creation
are levels of emanation. The Light is stronger at one place and
weaker at
another it seems.
Containing existence does not mean that what is contained is divine,
does
it?
regards,
doug
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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Hi Doug. I cannot tell you what Susan is thinking. We will have to see if
she responds to this.
"Creation can not be within God."
I hate to say "cannot" where it comes to God. But my conception is that
Creation emanates from God, continually. That God exists absolutely within
His reality, which is unknown to us, and His Bounties cause our reality,
which is wholly contained in His reality.
| Quote: | ...we can know the reality of Creation but not in the absolute sense for we
cannot know the essence of anything.
|
That is my understanding as well.
--Kent
"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:qfGdnUv1M-j84DnanZ2dnUVZ_oytnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
On Feb 1, 2008, at 7:10 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:
Hi Doug,
"Containing existence does not mean that what is contained is divine,
does it?"
I believe the issue is that the word that is capitalized must refer to
God,
or one of His major attributes. In the case of "All", Susan is
complaining
that God is not "all" because if He were everything, that would be
pantheism.
Dear Kent-
I did not interpret Susan's opinion as you say. I thought she was saying
that God is not in His Creation for that would be pantheism. I'm also of
the understanding that Creation can not be within God. God to me is
completely separate from His Creation and His Creation is separate from
God. We can create a chair but the chair is not within us materially,
just as an idea. And we cannot become the chair. However no matter what
analogy or logic we use we cannot really know God.
My point is that the Reality of God is a single reality, and there is
nothing that is not within this reality. There is nothing outside the
purview of God. His reality is above and encompasses our reality. The
example Abdu'l-Baha uses is the sun. Though we know there is more to the
sun than we can know, that does not mean the sun is not contained in the
same reality which contains us.
Guess I am sort of lost on this. To me the Writings are clear that God is
a separate Reality that none can reach. The Manifestation is a separate
reality that Creatures cannot reach and Creation is a separate reality
consisting of material and spiritual aspects. We cannot know the reality
of God nor the reality of the Manifestation but we can know the reality of
Creation but not in the absolute sense for we cannot know the essence of
anything.
The Light is stronger at one place and weaker at another it seems.
Because reality emanates from God does not mean He is His reality.
I do not understand. Can you clarify?
doug
--Kent |
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