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Kent Johnson
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 Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:46 pm Post subject: Kingdom of Names |
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Subject: The Kingdom of Names
Date: Thursday, October 23, 2003 10:39 AM
I think it is high time I begin to write my exposition on an idea I have
bandying about in my head for over ten years. I have given firesides about
it, and I find cautious interest. To me this is the fundamental rationale
for morality and religion.
Another caution: This idea seems simple, even simplistic, to me. But then
I remember that all human logic and reason is just a small part of a
simplified rational model for the true, objective workings of God's Will.
And it fascinates me, so I will start to put it to words. Ever since I have
noticed this perspective I have changed the way I look at things
philosophical and religious. It begins like this:
We are non-physical creatures. We know this because the world we have
created for ourselves is a world of words and names. A chair cannot exist
in nature, though we create chairs out of our natural surroundings through
our conceptualizations and refer to chairs with our languages. We create
our surroundings with our words. We make a rock formation into a chair, a
large object into a tree, a small object into a gnat. Each object is
defined and reified into a matrix of logical order created and reinforced
with the power of words and names.
When we notice and call attention to the fact that we are perpetuating, in a
number of ways, this creation, we find ourselves living in a kingdom of
words and names. I find that when I read Genesis I see the truth of the
Word of God rather than wondering at the true meaning of the Word of God.
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.1:2 And the earth
was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And
the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.1:3 And God said, Let
there be light: and there was light.1:4 And God saw the light, that it was
good: and God divided the light from the darkness.1:5 And God called the
light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning
were the first day.1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst
of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.1:7 And God made
the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from
the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.1:8 And God called
the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second
day.1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together
unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.1:10 And God
called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called
he Seas: and God saw that it was good. (King James Bible, Genesis)
The more I read the more I understand that God created our world by
revealing to humanity the Kingdom of Names. After putting these notions to
the test I find it difficult not to understand most religious writing when,
before, it was a struggle. I had a friend who spoke Hebrew translate
Genesis 1:1 as "Before the beginning God cut the form and the substance." I
have no idea how accurate this translation might be from an objective
stance, but my point is that God creates by supplying a matrix for
understanding that Baha'is call the Kingdom of Names.
"And when He purposed to manifest His beauty in the kingdom of names and to
reveal His glory in the realm of attributes, He brought forth His Prophets
from the invisible plane to the visible, that His name 'the Manifest' might
be distinguished from 'the Hidden' and His name 'the Last' might be
discerned from 'the First', and that there may be fulfilled the words: 'He
is the First and the Last; the Seen and the Hidden; and He knoweth all
things!'" (Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 35)
| Quote: | From this point I turn in the direction of a sort of meta-physics. Our
world is created by words and words have no physical form or substance other |
than modulating synaptic eloquence and various forms of ink on various forms
of paper. Therefore it is a small jump to understand in a very real way that
humanity has a non-physical existence.
I like to explain it this way: The instant we put a word or a name to our
experience we have left the physical world. So long as our experience is
"ouch" or "wow" or "aargh" then we are physical. But when we say "oh, it's
a ." then we are non-physical. If our world is a kingdom of names then our
existence is not a physical existence and it is a small jump to understand
why our existence outlasts our bodies. But before I go there I like to
differentiate the non-physical from the spiritual or divine.
I think I will leave my thoughts at this for the moment. I would appreciate
feedback if any of you have the time.
Thanks for reading, and Allah-u-Abha! --Kent |
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john ludgate
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:02 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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Hello Kent,
Thanks for your thoughts. I like to take leave of the physical world at
times (timeless times are these) and will add my proverbial "2 cents" even
though they may be at a tangent or secant or superfluous to your own.
Perhaps a look at Plato would help with these thoughts but I have not yet
delved enough there, though it has looked inviting. Nothing compares to the
words of the mystic Dove singing from the branches of the Eternal Tree. I
feel that Baha'u'llah is telling us to not be hypnotized by the world of
names but to go to the Essense of things - maintain a focus on the One
Source. He warns followers of all religions to beware of worshipping a name
(like Jesus or Mohammad or Bab or Baha'u'llah) and end up missing the
Essence behind that name. We have been endowed with a "brain" and "heart"
and are in many ways restricted to our own concepts of the world and need to
be saved from our "vain imaginations" and "idle fancies". The Seven Valleys
seems to lead one on a tour from the world of names to a place beyond words.
My understanding is that language and names connot encompass the Ineffable
One from beyond the veil of concepts. We need the Words and life of the
Manifestation to act as a Path and a Melody and a Fragrance to lead us - the
Shirt of Joseph to help us see.
Praise the All Glorius for the warblings of the Mystic Bird.
With Loving kindness,
john
On 10/25/03 1:46 AM, "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com> wrote:
.....snip
| Quote: | I like to explain it this way: The instant we put a word or a name to our
experience we have left the physical world. So long as our experience is
"ouch" or "wow" or "aargh" then we are physical. But when we say "oh, it's
a ." then we are non-physical. If our world is a kingdom of names then our
existence is not a physical existence and it is a small jump to understand
why our existence outlasts our bodies. But before I go there I like to
differentiate the non-physical from the spiritual or divine.
I think I will leave my thoughts at this for the moment. I would appreciate
feedback if any of you have the time.
Thanks for reading, and Allah-u-Abha! --Kent
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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Hi John,
I understand your concern that abiding in the kingdom of names might be
confused with worshipping the name and not the essence.
However, anyone who follows the argument that all of our thoughts, when
expressed in words and names, are a mere representation of the true and
objective reality, could not possibly believe their words and names are
worthy of worship.
If we are aware that words and names construct a model of reality we see
that our words and names are not real and worthy of worship, but rather a
model and imperfect depiction of God's creation. What is real and true is
beyond words, but words are all we have in this physical world to allow us
to place one foot in the non-physical, timeless and formless reality.
With more time I can and will support this with writings from all religion,
but for now let me just answer your concern. I hope these few words were
sufficient.
Allah'u'Abha. --Kent
"john ludgate" <johnludgate@doe.as> wrote in message
news:Jt6dnZB-AdjreTyiRVn-gA@giganews.com...
| Quote: | Hello Kent,
Thanks for your thoughts. I like to take leave of the physical world at
times (timeless times are these) and will add my proverbial "2 cents" even
though they may be at a tangent or secant or superfluous to your own.
Perhaps a look at Plato would help with these thoughts but I have not yet
delved enough there, though it has looked inviting. Nothing compares to
the
words of the mystic Dove singing from the branches of the Eternal Tree. I
feel that Baha'u'llah is telling us to not be hypnotized by the world of
names but to go to the Essense of things - maintain a focus on the One
Source. He warns followers of all religions to beware of worshipping a
name
(like Jesus or Mohammad or Bab or Baha'u'llah) and end up missing the
Essence behind that name. We have been endowed with a "brain" and "heart"
and are in many ways restricted to our own concepts of the world and need
to
be saved from our "vain imaginations" and "idle fancies". The Seven
Valleys
seems to lead one on a tour from the world of names to a place beyond
words.
My understanding is that language and names connot encompass the Ineffable
One from beyond the veil of concepts. We need the Words and life of the
Manifestation to act as a Path and a Melody and a Fragrance to lead us -
the
Shirt of Joseph to help us see.
Praise the All Glorius for the warblings of the Mystic Bird.
With Loving kindness,
john
On 10/25/03 1:46 AM, "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com> wrote:
....snip
I like to explain it this way: The instant we put a word or a name to
our
experience we have left the physical world. So long as our experience
is
"ouch" or "wow" or "aargh" then we are physical. But when we say "oh,
it's
a ." then we are non-physical. If our world is a kingdom of names then
our
existence is not a physical existence and it is a small jump to
understand
why our existence outlasts our bodies. But before I go there I like to
differentiate the non-physical from the spiritual or divine.
I think I will leave my thoughts at this for the moment. I would
appreciate
feedback if any of you have the time.
Thanks for reading, and Allah-u-Abha! --Kent
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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Hi John,
I understand your concern that abiding in the kingdom of names might be
confused with worshipping the name and not the essence.
However, anyone who follows the argument that all of our thoughts, when
expressed in words and names, are a mere representation of the true and
objective reality, could not possibly believe their words and names are
worthy of worship.
If we are aware that words and names construct a model of reality we see
that our words and names are not real and worthy of worship, but rather a
model and imperfect depiction of God's creation. What is real and true is
beyond words, but words are all we have in this physical world to allow us
to place one foot in the non-physical, timeless and formless reality.
With more time I can and will support this with writings from all religion,
but for now let me just answer your concern. I hope these few words were
sufficient.
"john ludgate" <johnludgate@doe.as> wrote in message
news:Jt6dnZB-AdjreTyiRVn-gA@giganews.com...
| Quote: | Hello Kent,
Thanks for your thoughts. I like to take leave of the physical world at
times (timeless times are these) and will add my proverbial "2 cents" even
though they may be at a tangent or secant or superfluous to your own.
Perhaps a look at Plato would help with these thoughts but I have not yet
delved enough there, though it has looked inviting. Nothing compares to
the
words of the mystic Dove singing from the branches of the Eternal Tree. I
feel that Baha'u'llah is telling us to not be hypnotized by the world of
names but to go to the Essense of things - maintain a focus on the One
Source. He warns followers of all religions to beware of worshipping a
name
(like Jesus or Mohammad or Bab or Baha'u'llah) and end up missing the
Essence behind that name. We have been endowed with a "brain" and "heart"
and are in many ways restricted to our own concepts of the world and need
to
be saved from our "vain imaginations" and "idle fancies". The Seven
Valleys
seems to lead one on a tour from the world of names to a place beyond
words.
My understanding is that language and names connot encompass the Ineffable
One from beyond the veil of concepts. We need the Words and life of the
Manifestation to act as a Path and a Melody and a Fragrance to lead us -
the
Shirt of Joseph to help us see.
Praise the All Glorius for the warblings of the Mystic Bird.
With Loving kindness,
john
On 10/25/03 1:46 AM, "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com> wrote:
....snip
I like to explain it this way: The instant we put a word or a name to
our
experience we have left the physical world. So long as our experience
is
"ouch" or "wow" or "aargh" then we are physical. But when we say "oh,
it's
a ." then we are non-physical. If our world is a kingdom of names then
our
existence is not a physical existence and it is a small jump to
understand
why our existence outlasts our bodies. But before I go there I like to
differentiate the non-physical from the spiritual or divine.
I think I will leave my thoughts at this for the moment. I would
appreciate
feedback if any of you have the time.
Thanks for reading, and Allah-u-Abha! --Kent
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john ludgate
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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Hello Kent,
Your words are kindly and clear and I look forward to more even as I attempt
to hone my own kindliness and clarity. As I follow and recapitulate, the
Kingdom of Names is given to us by the "Manifest yet Hidden" One and He
chooses to "reveal" whatever He willest. He reveals and we ruminate. I much
enjoy the rumination and regurgitation in the Kingdom of Names and
attributes. In Evanescence from the fertilization of my mother's egg cell in
her womb and gradual growth and differentiation of cells into skin and eye
and kidney and heart and brain into a self reflective being that is called
simply John, learning words and concepts and talking to a similarly formed
being called Kent over the internet while other "eyes" ane "listening".
Wonderful and Glorious, Praise be to the Unknowable Creator and His Word
made flesh, whose Will cannot be resisted.
Please continue with your thoughts on differentiating the non-physical from
the spiritual or divine. I am just giving you some extemporaneous feedback
as we use words to attempt to bring forth an outline in the Kingdom of Names
of the ineffable and invisible really Real.
With Bahai loving kindness,
john
On 11/1/03 10:13 AM, "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi John,
I understand your concern that abiding in the kingdom of names might be
confused with worshipping the name and not the essence.
However, anyone who follows the argument that all of our thoughts, when
expressed in words and names, are a mere representation of the true and
objective reality, could not possibly believe their words and names are
worthy of worship.
If we are aware that words and names construct a model of reality we see
that our words and names are not real and worthy of worship, but rather a
model and imperfect depiction of God's creation. What is real and true is
beyond words, but words are all we have in this physical world to allow us
to place one foot in the non-physical, timeless and formless reality.
With more time I can and will support this with writings from all religion,
but for now let me just answer your concern. I hope these few words were
sufficient.
"john ludgate" <johnludgate@doe.as> wrote in message
news:Jt6dnZB-AdjreTyiRVn-gA@giganews.com...
Hello Kent,
Thanks for your thoughts. I like to take leave of the physical world at
times (timeless times are these) and will add my proverbial "2 cents" even
though they may be at a tangent or secant or superfluous to your own.
Perhaps a look at Plato would help with these thoughts but I have not yet
delved enough there, though it has looked inviting. Nothing compares to
the
words of the mystic Dove singing from the branches of the Eternal Tree. I
feel that Baha'u'llah is telling us to not be hypnotized by the world of
names but to go to the Essense of things - maintain a focus on the One
Source. He warns followers of all religions to beware of worshipping a
name
(like Jesus or Mohammad or Bab or Baha'u'llah) and end up missing the
Essence behind that name. We have been endowed with a "brain" and "heart"
and are in many ways restricted to our own concepts of the world and need
to
be saved from our "vain imaginations" and "idle fancies". The Seven
Valleys
seems to lead one on a tour from the world of names to a place beyond
words.
My understanding is that language and names connot encompass the Ineffable
One from beyond the veil of concepts. We need the Words and life of the
Manifestation to act as a Path and a Melody and a Fragrance to lead us -
the
Shirt of Joseph to help us see.
Praise the All Glorius for the warblings of the Mystic Bird.
With Loving kindness,
john
On 10/25/03 1:46 AM, "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com> wrote:
....snip
I like to explain it this way: The instant we put a word or a name to
our
experience we have left the physical world. So long as our experience
is
"ouch" or "wow" or "aargh" then we are physical. But when we say "oh,
it's
a ." then we are non-physical. If our world is a kingdom of names then
our
existence is not a physical existence and it is a small jump to
understand
why our existence outlasts our bodies. But before I go there I like to
differentiate the non-physical from the spiritual or divine.
I think I will leave my thoughts at this for the moment. I would
appreciate
feedback if any of you have the time.
Thanks for reading, and Allah-u-Abha! --Kent
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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| Quote: | I have read Greek philosophy, and it strikes me that Plato does not talk
about spheres, and I believe he would be shocked to know how his name was
added to relationships and what that means.
|
Dear Kent,
Huh? I can't make any sense out of the above? Has there been any
discussion of spheres here? And what do you mean by his name "added to
relationships"?
I don't believe Plato, Socrates
| Quote: | or even Euclid mean for their ideas to be viewed on a non-existent,
metaphysical, plane of existence.
|
The metaphysical 'non-existent'? Perish the thought! For Plato the
metaphysical was the *real* existence, beside which the physical realm
constituted mere shadows on the wall of a cave.
warmest, Susan |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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Hi Susan,
| Quote: | And what do you mean by his name "added to
relationships"?
|
A Platonic relationship is a non-sexual relationship between two people who
are attracted. Do you think Plato would have any idea why his name survives
in this way?
Platonic forms do not appear in any of the works of Plato, the Wiki
notwithstanding:
From the Wiki: "Plato's own articulation of the realism regarding the
existence of universals is expounded in his The Republic and elsewhere,
notably in the Phaedo, the Phaedrus, the Meno, and the Parmenides.
What Plato did was relate dialogs between Socrates and others. There is no
outline of a metaphysical world. That is all extrapolation. The dialogs
read very easily, like stories in a sixth grader reader. Only the names of
the characters are difficult to remember and pronounce, for me, anyway. But
the extrapolation from these dialogs is humongous. Most any volume of
Plato's Republic has more notes than dialog, and the notes just tell you
what the dialog says.
More from the Wiki: ""In Platonic realism, universals do not exist in the
way that ordinary physical objects exist, but were thought to have a sort of
ghostly or heavenly mode of existence."
I defy anyone to show such existence in the works of Plato. "Platonic
realism" is an extrapolation of ideas expressed in the dialogs of Plato, but
they do not outline such a mode of existence anymore than the Baha'i
Writings or the Old or New Testaments or the Buddhist Pali Canon does. That
is all interpretation of those works.
| Quote: | The metaphysical 'non-existent'? Perish the thought! For Plato the
metaphysical was the *real* existence, beside which the physical realm
constituted mere shadows on the wall of a cave.
|
A good allegory, a well known allegory, but allegory nontheless. The
Republic's main thrust is this allegory, along with the divided line and the
metaphor of the sun, all related, but none posit the existence of a
metaphysical reality.
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:vrKdnbruo-pYIAHanZ2dnUVZ_tKinZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | I have read Greek philosophy, and it strikes me that Plato does not talk
about spheres, and I believe he would be shocked to know how his name was
added to relationships and what that means.
Dear Kent,
Huh? I can't make any sense out of the above? Has there been any
discussion of spheres here? And what do you mean by his name "added to
relationships"?
I don't believe Plato, Socrates
or even Euclid mean for their ideas to be viewed on a non-existent,
metaphysical, plane of existence.
The metaphysical 'non-existent'? Perish the thought! For Plato the
metaphysical was the *real* existence, beside which the physical realm
constituted mere shadows on the wall of a cave.
warmest, Susan
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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| Quote: | And what do you mean by his name "added to
relationships"?
A Platonic relationship is a non-sexual relationship between two people who
are attracted.
|
LOL. I had no idea that was what you were talking about.
| Quote: | What Plato did was relate dialogs between Socrates and others. There is no
outline of a metaphysical world.
|
We have no way of knowing whether these represented real dialogues or
just Plato's understanding of Socrates' teachings.Plato doesn't need
to present an 'outline' of the metaphysical world for it to be
intrinsic to his thinking.
In any case, your understanding of Plato is truly unique.
warmest, Susan |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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Sure, Plato could have made up all that stuff about Socrates. But
Abdu'l-Baha believed Socrates existed, so Plato fooled better people than
just me. But taken at face value, and there isn't all that much context
left from 320 BC, Plato related what happened, and his story is quite
believable.
| Quote: | Plato doesn't need
to present an 'outline' of the metaphysical world for it to be
intrinsic to his thinking.
|
Neither does Christ or Baha'u'llah, but are you going to tell me what They
were thinking?
There is nearly two and a half millennia of what people say about Plato to
draw on. They all tell us what he was saying, but his words are not that
hard to read.
So why insist on metaphysics? It doesn't seem reasonable to me.
| Quote: | In any case, your understanding of Plato is truly unique.
|
My religion tells me to think for myself.
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:v-idnZCe_OU5cgDanZ2dnUVZ_v2pnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | And what do you mean by his name "added to
relationships"?
A Platonic relationship is a non-sexual relationship between two people
who
are attracted.
LOL. I had no idea that was what you were talking about.
What Plato did was relate dialogs between Socrates and others. There is
no
outline of a metaphysical world.
We have no way of knowing whether these represented real dialogues or
just Plato's understanding of Socrates' teachings.Plato doesn't need
to present an 'outline' of the metaphysical world for it to be
intrinsic to his thinking.
In any case, your understanding of Plato is truly unique.
warmest, Susan
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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| Quote: | Sure, Plato could have made up all that stuff about Socrates. But
Abdu'l-Baha believed Socrates existed, so Plato fooled better people than
just me.
|
Dear Kent,
No one has suggested that Socrates didn't exist. We have plenty of
other sources to confirm that. What is debatable is the extent to
which Plato's writings represent Socrates own teachings or ones Plato
put into his mouth.
| Quote: | Plato doesn't need
to present an 'outline' of the metaphysical world for it to be
intrinsic to his thinking.
Neither does Christ or Baha'u'llah, but are you going to tell me what They
were thinking?
|
I've not made an 'outline' of the metaphysical world either, Kent.
I've just affirmed its existence. What you don't seem to understand is
that anything that is spiritual is metaphysical by definition.
warmest, Susan |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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From the Free Online Dictionary "1. (used with a sing. verb) Philosophy The
branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the
relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and
value."
Is that a good definition, in your mind?
In any case, in your mind "spiritual" is to metaphysical as "matter" is to
physical, right?
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:tr-dnUmEQruJqAPanZ2dnUVZ_vKunZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | Sure, Plato could have made up all that stuff about Socrates. But
Abdu'l-Baha believed Socrates existed, so Plato fooled better people than
just me.
Dear Kent,
No one has suggested that Socrates didn't exist. We have plenty of
other sources to confirm that. What is debatable is the extent to
which Plato's writings represent Socrates own teachings or ones Plato
put into his mouth.
Plato doesn't need
to present an 'outline' of the metaphysical world for it to be
intrinsic to his thinking.
Neither does Christ or Baha'u'llah, but are you going to tell me what
They
were thinking?
I've not made an 'outline' of the metaphysical world either, Kent.
I've just affirmed its existence. What you don't seem to understand is
that anything that is spiritual is metaphysical by definition.
warmest, Susan
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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| Quote: | In any case, in your mind "spiritual" is to metaphysical as "matter" is to
physical, right?
|
That's more or less accurate. The metaphysical is the ultimate reality
which goes beyond the physical. |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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Hi Susan,
In your terms, then, is "the ultimate reality" or "the metaphysical"
referred to by Abdu'l-Baha in any way?
It seems to me the model of existence offered by Abdu'l-Baha is different.
"Divinity is actual Truth and real existence, and not any representation of
it. Divinity itself contains All, and is not contained. (Abdu'l-Baha,
Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 22)
Divinity, according to His usage of the word, includes both material reality
and non-material reality. My controversial proposition is that non-material
reality is, in humanity, rational, and further that the rational is the only
example known of non-material reality.
And further that Plato knew this as well as Christ and Baha'u'llah.
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ltudnSfab_xDrgLanZ2dnUVZ_qmlnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | In any case, in your mind "spiritual" is to metaphysical as "matter" is
to
physical, right?
That's more or less accurate. The metaphysical is the ultimate reality
which goes beyond the physical.
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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| Quote: | In your terms, then, is "the ultimate reality" or "the metaphysical"
referred to by Abdu'l-Baha in any way?
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Dear Kent,
Sure. Abdu'l-Baha says the "Reality of man is spiritual."
| Quote: |
It seems to me the model of existence offered by Abdu'l-Baha is different.
"Divinity is actual Truth and real existence, and not any representation of
it. Divinity itself contains All, and is not contained. (Abdu'l-Baha,
Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 22)
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"Actual Truth" is just a variant translation of Ultimate Reality. The
term in Arabic is Haqiqat which is used to refer to Platonic ideals.
| Quote: | Divinity, according to His usage of the word, includes both material reality
and non-material reality.
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Where does He suggest that?
warmest, Susan |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:48 am Post subject: Re: Kingdom of Names |
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I don't know why you ask. It is in the short quote I provided.
He said Divinity contains All and is not contained. Unless you are saying
that material or non-material realities are somehow outside of "All", not a
part of Truth or real existence.
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dKCdnSjoJPox5wLanZ2dnUVZ_oaonZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | In your terms, then, is "the ultimate reality" or "the metaphysical"
referred to by Abdu'l-Baha in any way?
Dear Kent,
Sure. Abdu'l-Baha says the "Reality of man is spiritual."
It seems to me the model of existence offered by Abdu'l-Baha is
different.
"Divinity is actual Truth and real existence, and not any representation
of
it. Divinity itself contains All, and is not contained. (Abdu'l-Baha,
Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 22)
"Actual Truth" is just a variant translation of Ultimate Reality. The
term in Arabic is Haqiqat which is used to refer to Platonic ideals.
Divinity, according to His usage of the word, includes both material
reality
and non-material reality.
Where does He suggest that?
warmest, Susan
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