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MAK
Guest
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 Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 2:03 am Post subject: LCMS vs. ELCA |
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Hello:
I found, on another ng, this list of the differences between the LCMS
and the ELCA:
"Some of the differences between the LCMS (Lutheran Church - Missouri
Synod) and the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America):
1. Interpretation of Scripture - ELCA uses historical and higher
critical methods, LCMS has rejected these methods.
2. Ordination of Women - LCMS no, ELCA yes.
3. Homosexuality - LCMS states homosexuality is a sin and will not
ordain practicing homosexuals, ELCA is still studying the issue and
some
homosexuals have been ordained.
4. Right to Life - LCMS is strongly pro-life and anti-abortion, ELCA
is not.
5. Church Structure - LCMS is congregationally orgainized and calls
the leaders of its District and Synod "President". ELCA is more
hierarchical and calls its leaders "Bishop" (this is really a minor
difference).
6. Fellowship with other bodies - LCMS standard is that there must be
agreement in doctrine before there can be altar and pulpit fellowship.
ELCA standard is not as strong.
In conclusion, although the LCMS and ELCA work cooperatively in many
areas (for example, Lutheran World Relief), there is no pulpit and
altar fellowship between the LCMS and ELCA."
How accurate is this list of differences? Any additions or
disagreements?
I am interested in the Lutheran church and at some point soon would
like to start attending church regularly. I am not sure which
direction to go in. From reading posts and looking at the two
sub-denomination's respective web sites, it appears that the LCMS has
a more traditional, conservative philosophy than does the ELCA;
particularly in regards to issues such as the ordination of
homosexuals, abortion, etc. So hence I'd like to know the accuracy of
the list above.
My fiancee is RC, but feels comfortable with raising children as
Lutheran, as do I (my father was raised LCMS and I have a relative who
is an ELCA minister). There seems to be many more ELCA congregations
than LCMS, so if we ever moved away from where we currently live
(where there is an LCMS church nearby) - which is likely at some
point, I may find that my only choice in our new area is ELCA. I
assume (perhaps incorrectly), that there would be even fewer WELS
congregations. I am concerend by some of the posts I have seen here
and elsewhere regarding the ELCA, which seems to be heading in a
direction similar to the Episcopal church. If I am laboring under a
misunderstanding in that regard, then please correct me.
What is the likelihood of the LCMS expanding it's presence and opening
new churches/congregations?
MAK |
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 Back to top |
Michael
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 4:08 am Post subject: Re: LCMS vs. ELCA |
|
|
I think your list of differences is accurate. You can get the official LCMS
perspective by going to http://www.lcms.org/cic/elca.html,
http://www.lcms.org/president/statements/stelca.asp and
http://www.lcms.org/belief/whatabout/wa_elca-lcms.pdf.
"MAK" <none@mail.com> wrote in message
news:Le_hb.95028$%h1.93010@sccrnsc02...
| Quote: | Hello:
I found, on another ng, this list of the differences between the LCMS
and the ELCA:
"Some of the differences between the LCMS (Lutheran Church - Missouri
Synod) and the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America):
1. Interpretation of Scripture - ELCA uses historical and higher
critical methods, LCMS has rejected these methods.
2. Ordination of Women - LCMS no, ELCA yes.
3. Homosexuality - LCMS states homosexuality is a sin and will not
ordain practicing homosexuals, ELCA is still studying the issue and
some
homosexuals have been ordained.
4. Right to Life - LCMS is strongly pro-life and anti-abortion, ELCA
is not.
5. Church Structure - LCMS is congregationally orgainized and calls
the leaders of its District and Synod "President". ELCA is more
hierarchical and calls its leaders "Bishop" (this is really a minor
difference).
6. Fellowship with other bodies - LCMS standard is that there must be
agreement in doctrine before there can be altar and pulpit fellowship.
ELCA standard is not as strong.
In conclusion, although the LCMS and ELCA work cooperatively in many
areas (for example, Lutheran World Relief), there is no pulpit and
altar fellowship between the LCMS and ELCA."
How accurate is this list of differences? Any additions or
disagreements?
I am interested in the Lutheran church and at some point soon would
like to start attending church regularly. I am not sure which
direction to go in. From reading posts and looking at the two
sub-denomination's respective web sites, it appears that the LCMS has
a more traditional, conservative philosophy than does the ELCA;
particularly in regards to issues such as the ordination of
homosexuals, abortion, etc. So hence I'd like to know the accuracy of
the list above.
My fiancee is RC, but feels comfortable with raising children as
Lutheran, as do I (my father was raised LCMS and I have a relative who
is an ELCA minister). There seems to be many more ELCA congregations
than LCMS, so if we ever moved away from where we currently live
(where there is an LCMS church nearby) - which is likely at some
point, I may find that my only choice in our new area is ELCA. I
assume (perhaps incorrectly), that there would be even fewer WELS
congregations. I am concerend by some of the posts I have seen here
and elsewhere regarding the ELCA, which seems to be heading in a
direction similar to the Episcopal church. If I am laboring under a
misunderstanding in that regard, then please correct me.
What is the likelihood of the LCMS expanding it's presence and opening
new churches/congregations?
MAK
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| Back to top |
Scott
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 5:29 am Post subject: Re: LCMS vs. ELCA |
|
|
Your list is correct.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you already know the right way
to go and are now concerned what will happen when you relocate for one
reason or another.
To that I would say simply to worry about what you need to today and
trust in God to give you what you need tomorrow. Yes there are fewer LCMS
curches than ELCA churches and there are even fewer conservative LCMS
churches than there used to be.
There are fewer for a couple of reasons. There are pastors who wanted to
leave during the upheaval in the 70's but stayed LCMS since the congregation
wanted to. The pastors stayed on and simply preached as they wanted to
anyway.
Up to this point the constitution of synod has never been enforced as it
should be and
over time this problem has festered.
Another reason has to do with pensions and retirement benefits. I'm not
sure
of the numbers but I know that is an issue.
Finally, the "why" behind how come there are some many more ELCA ties back
to
what i call "The Church of Least Resistance"; in other words many people
select
churches that tend not to conflict with what THEY think God meant. Since
everybody
is trying to be more tolerant, loving and not to offend anyone they
gravitate toward
churches that do the same. Attendence goes up, the treasury grows and this
serves to
validate the heretical stands these other denominations preach.
The fact of the matter is that we need to find churches that preach the Word
of God as HE
meant it. This means to rely on scriptural passages to interpret scriptural
passages. Sure, that
sounds like double talk but it isn't. While it is true that the Bible
itself is "A" book (actually THE
book) we need to bear in mind that it is, in all actuality a COLLECTION of
writings put down
by men under the direction of the Holy Spirit rendering it the inerrant Word
of God. When we
say we have a "higher" understanding now we deceive ourselves and the truth
is not in us.
The Word of God is not as popular today as in the past and there are those
who would simply
censor out the parts they believe are intolerant. The fact is that the
Bible merely says homosexuality
is wrong. This does NOT make the homosexual (read sinner) a ba, mean,
nasty, rotten, evil person.
It simply makes him (or her) a sinner. The same as an adulterer, the same
as a thief and the same
as any of the rest of us sinners. Myself included.
The ELCA argument to this position, at least on this list, seems to center
on what Christ said
in John 13:43: "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another;
even as I have
loved you, that you also love one another." This passage is used to say
that we now accept
homosexuallity and women pastors simply because to do so would be
"unloving". The fact
of the matter is that Christ is simply saying that this is a NEW
COMMANDMENT, He is
NOT saying that this is the ONLY commandment or that this supercedes prior
scripture.
It is sort of like the 11th commandment. Think of "loving" in the sense in
which Christ did
it and therefore in which it was meant. He did not go around condemning
people, He went
around trying to bring them to the faith. Those that believed were saved,
those that didn't
weren't. He did not say, hey, it's all cool do whatever you want in the
name of love. It
is sort of like growing up. How many times did your parents punish you for
doing something
wrong, but still tell you that they loved you? Loving doesn't mean
accepting something
that is wrong. Loving means caring enough to point out the error and to
work to correct
it so it doesn't happen again.
Sorry, looks like I went on quite a tear here. I'll stop now and get off
the soapbox.
Oh, for whatever it is worth, I'm an LCMS layman seriously debating going
into the
seminary.
"MAK" <none@mail.com> wrote in message
news:Le_hb.95028$%h1.93010@sccrnsc02...
| Quote: | Hello:
I found, on another ng, this list of the differences between the LCMS
and the ELCA:
"Some of the differences between the LCMS (Lutheran Church - Missouri
Synod) and the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America):
1. Interpretation of Scripture - ELCA uses historical and higher
critical methods, LCMS has rejected these methods.
2. Ordination of Women - LCMS no, ELCA yes.
3. Homosexuality - LCMS states homosexuality is a sin and will not
ordain practicing homosexuals, ELCA is still studying the issue and
some
homosexuals have been ordained.
4. Right to Life - LCMS is strongly pro-life and anti-abortion, ELCA
is not.
5. Church Structure - LCMS is congregationally orgainized and calls
the leaders of its District and Synod "President". ELCA is more
hierarchical and calls its leaders "Bishop" (this is really a minor
difference).
6. Fellowship with other bodies - LCMS standard is that there must be
agreement in doctrine before there can be altar and pulpit fellowship.
ELCA standard is not as strong.
In conclusion, although the LCMS and ELCA work cooperatively in many
areas (for example, Lutheran World Relief), there is no pulpit and
altar fellowship between the LCMS and ELCA."
How accurate is this list of differences? Any additions or
disagreements?
I am interested in the Lutheran church and at some point soon would
like to start attending church regularly. I am not sure which
direction to go in. From reading posts and looking at the two
sub-denomination's respective web sites, it appears that the LCMS has
a more traditional, conservative philosophy than does the ELCA;
particularly in regards to issues such as the ordination of
homosexuals, abortion, etc. So hence I'd like to know the accuracy of
the list above.
My fiancee is RC, but feels comfortable with raising children as
Lutheran, as do I (my father was raised LCMS and I have a relative who
is an ELCA minister). There seems to be many more ELCA congregations
than LCMS, so if we ever moved away from where we currently live
(where there is an LCMS church nearby) - which is likely at some
point, I may find that my only choice in our new area is ELCA. I
assume (perhaps incorrectly), that there would be even fewer WELS
congregations. I am concerend by some of the posts I have seen here
and elsewhere regarding the ELCA, which seems to be heading in a
direction similar to the Episcopal church. If I am laboring under a
misunderstanding in that regard, then please correct me.
What is the likelihood of the LCMS expanding it's presence and opening
new churches/congregations?
MAK
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| Back to top |
MAK
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:24 am Post subject: Re: LCMS vs. ELCA |
|
|
"Scott" <brn2dipATyahooDOTcom> wrote in message
news:sRmcnTP66uJuPRWiXTWJkA@comcast.com...
| Quote: | Your list is correct.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you already know the
right way
to go and are now concerned what will happen when you relocate for
one
reason or another.
To that I would say simply to worry about what you need to today and
trust in God to give you what you need tomorrow. Yes there are
fewer LCMS
curches than ELCA churches and there are even fewer conservative
LCMS
churches than there used to be.
There are fewer for a couple of reasons. There are pastors who
wanted to
leave during the upheaval in the 70's but stayed LCMS since the
congregation
wanted to. The pastors stayed on and simply preached as they wanted
to
anyway.
Up to this point the constitution of synod has never been enforced
as it
should be and
over time this problem has festered.
Another reason has to do with pensions and retirement benefits. I'm
not
sure
of the numbers but I know that is an issue.
Finally, the "why" behind how come there are some many more ELCA
ties back
to
what i call "The Church of Least Resistance"; in other words many
people
select
churches that tend not to conflict with what THEY think God meant.
Since
everybody
is trying to be more tolerant, loving and not to offend anyone they
gravitate toward
churches that do the same. Attendence goes up, the treasury grows
and this
serves to
validate the heretical stands these other denominations preach.
The fact of the matter is that we need to find churches that preach
the Word
of God as HE
meant it. This means to rely on scriptural passages to interpret
scriptural
passages. Sure, that
sounds like double talk but it isn't. While it is true that the
Bible
itself is "A" book (actually THE
book) we need to bear in mind that it is, in all actuality a
COLLECTION of
writings put down
by men under the direction of the Holy Spirit rendering it the
inerrant Word
of God. When we
say we have a "higher" understanding now we deceive ourselves and
the truth
is not in us.
The Word of God is not as popular today as in the past and there are
those
who would simply
censor out the parts they believe are intolerant. The fact is that
the
Bible merely says homosexuality
is wrong. This does NOT make the homosexual (read sinner) a ba,
mean,
nasty, rotten, evil person.
It simply makes him (or her) a sinner. The same as an adulterer,
the same
as a thief and the same
as any of the rest of us sinners. Myself included.
The ELCA argument to this position, at least on this list, seems to
center
on what Christ said
in John 13:43: "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one
another;
even as I have
loved you, that you also love one another." This passage is used to
say
that we now accept
homosexuallity and women pastors simply because to do so would be
"unloving". The fact
of the matter is that Christ is simply saying that this is a NEW
COMMANDMENT, He is
NOT saying that this is the ONLY commandment or that this supercedes
prior
scripture.
It is sort of like the 11th commandment. Think of "loving" in the
sense in
which Christ did
it and therefore in which it was meant. He did not go around
condemning
people, He went
around trying to bring them to the faith. Those that believed were
saved,
those that didn't
weren't. He did not say, hey, it's all cool do whatever you want in
the
name of love. It
is sort of like growing up. How many times did your parents punish
you for
doing something
wrong, but still tell you that they loved you? Loving doesn't mean
accepting something
that is wrong. Loving means caring enough to point out the error
and to
work to correct
it so it doesn't happen again.
Sorry, looks like I went on quite a tear here. I'll stop now and
get off
the soapbox.
Oh, for whatever it is worth, I'm an LCMS layman seriously debating
going
into the
seminary.
|
Hello Scott:
Thanks for your thoughtful response. While it is true that somewhat
(only somewhat) sure of the right direction in which to head, I am
also open to having any of my preconceived notions of the LCMS and
ELCA challenged. There is a lot of information out there, mostly on
the church web sites and it is not always easy to sift through. I
will say that the LCMS is doing a pretty good job of defining the
ELCA. That is bad for the ELCA, who should IMO be defining
themselves. FYI, the greatest Easter sermon that either I or my
fiancee have ever witnessed was at the LCMS church in Myrtle Beach SC
this year, when we were there on vacation.
Should I gravitate toward the LCMS, this will all be moot if there is
a church in my area, both now (which there is) and in the future. I
am distressed by your allusion to a lessening of conservative LCMS
churches. My notion of the LCMS is that it is the Lutheran
sub-denomination (for lack of a better term) that sticks most closely
to scripture and to what I have come to understand as confessional
Lutheranism. It is my hope that the LCMS is not going in the same
direction as other Protestant denominations, which is - as far as I
can tell, is in the direction that the Episcopal church seems to be
headed. As a lifelong Protestant (most recently attended an ELCA
church, but raised as a Congregationalist with some experience in a
Methodist church as well) I know what I am talking about and I am
concerned. I'd rather have my minister tell me things that the
"secular" me doesn't necessarily want to hear, but have it be the
right thing by God and by Christ's teachings. |
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| Back to top |
Michael
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:29 am Post subject: Re: LCMS vs. ELCA |
|
|
If you do not have confessional LCMS congregations in your area, or if you
are concerned about the current direction of the LCMS, you could also check
for Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) and Evangelical Lutheran
Synod (ELS) congregations. I grew up LCMS but now attend a WELS
congregation because of what is currently happening in the LCMS (PSD
specifically for those in the LCMS). You can locate WELS and ELS
congregations here:
http://wels.know-where.com/wels/ (WELS)
http://www.evluthsyn.org/ (ELS)
Michael
"MAK" <none@mail.com> wrote in message
news:n32ib.738215$Ho3.180432@sccrnsc03...
| Quote: |
"Scott" <brn2dipATyahooDOTcom> wrote in message
news:sRmcnTP66uJuPRWiXTWJkA@comcast.com...
Your list is correct.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you already know the
right way
to go and are now concerned what will happen when you relocate for
one
reason or another.
To that I would say simply to worry about what you need to today and
trust in God to give you what you need tomorrow. Yes there are
fewer LCMS
curches than ELCA churches and there are even fewer conservative
LCMS
churches than there used to be.
There are fewer for a couple of reasons. There are pastors who
wanted to
leave during the upheaval in the 70's but stayed LCMS since the
congregation
wanted to. The pastors stayed on and simply preached as they wanted
to
anyway.
Up to this point the constitution of synod has never been enforced
as it
should be and
over time this problem has festered.
Another reason has to do with pensions and retirement benefits. I'm
not
sure
of the numbers but I know that is an issue.
Finally, the "why" behind how come there are some many more ELCA
ties back
to
what i call "The Church of Least Resistance"; in other words many
people
select
churches that tend not to conflict with what THEY think God meant.
Since
everybody
is trying to be more tolerant, loving and not to offend anyone they
gravitate toward
churches that do the same. Attendence goes up, the treasury grows
and this
serves to
validate the heretical stands these other denominations preach.
The fact of the matter is that we need to find churches that preach
the Word
of God as HE
meant it. This means to rely on scriptural passages to interpret
scriptural
passages. Sure, that
sounds like double talk but it isn't. While it is true that the
Bible
itself is "A" book (actually THE
book) we need to bear in mind that it is, in all actuality a
COLLECTION of
writings put down
by men under the direction of the Holy Spirit rendering it the
inerrant Word
of God. When we
say we have a "higher" understanding now we deceive ourselves and
the truth
is not in us.
The Word of God is not as popular today as in the past and there are
those
who would simply
censor out the parts they believe are intolerant. The fact is that
the
Bible merely says homosexuality
is wrong. This does NOT make the homosexual (read sinner) a ba,
mean,
nasty, rotten, evil person.
It simply makes him (or her) a sinner. The same as an adulterer,
the same
as a thief and the same
as any of the rest of us sinners. Myself included.
The ELCA argument to this position, at least on this list, seems to
center
on what Christ said
in John 13:43: "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one
another;
even as I have
loved you, that you also love one another." This passage is used to
say
that we now accept
homosexuallity and women pastors simply because to do so would be
"unloving". The fact
of the matter is that Christ is simply saying that this is a NEW
COMMANDMENT, He is
NOT saying that this is the ONLY commandment or that this supercedes
prior
scripture.
It is sort of like the 11th commandment. Think of "loving" in the
sense in
which Christ did
it and therefore in which it was meant. He did not go around
condemning
people, He went
around trying to bring them to the faith. Those that believed were
saved,
those that didn't
weren't. He did not say, hey, it's all cool do whatever you want in
the
name of love. It
is sort of like growing up. How many times did your parents punish
you for
doing something
wrong, but still tell you that they loved you? Loving doesn't mean
accepting something
that is wrong. Loving means caring enough to point out the error
and to
work to correct
it so it doesn't happen again.
Sorry, looks like I went on quite a tear here. I'll stop now and
get off
the soapbox.
Oh, for whatever it is worth, I'm an LCMS layman seriously debating
going
into the
seminary.
Hello Scott:
Thanks for your thoughtful response. While it is true that somewhat
(only somewhat) sure of the right direction in which to head, I am
also open to having any of my preconceived notions of the LCMS and
ELCA challenged. There is a lot of information out there, mostly on
the church web sites and it is not always easy to sift through. I
will say that the LCMS is doing a pretty good job of defining the
ELCA. That is bad for the ELCA, who should IMO be defining
themselves. FYI, the greatest Easter sermon that either I or my
fiancee have ever witnessed was at the LCMS church in Myrtle Beach SC
this year, when we were there on vacation.
Should I gravitate toward the LCMS, this will all be moot if there is
a church in my area, both now (which there is) and in the future. I
am distressed by your allusion to a lessening of conservative LCMS
churches. My notion of the LCMS is that it is the Lutheran
sub-denomination (for lack of a better term) that sticks most closely
to scripture and to what I have come to understand as confessional
Lutheranism. It is my hope that the LCMS is not going in the same
direction as other Protestant denominations, which is - as far as I
can tell, is in the direction that the Episcopal church seems to be
headed. As a lifelong Protestant (most recently attended an ELCA
church, but raised as a Congregationalist with some experience in a
Methodist church as well) I know what I am talking about and I am
concerned. I'd rather have my minister tell me things that the
"secular" me doesn't necessarily want to hear, but have it be the
right thing by God and by Christ's teachings.
|
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| Back to top |
MAK
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:47 am Post subject: Re: LCMS vs. ELCA |
|
|
"Michael" <micvog@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:A03ib.9548$pL2.2951@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
| Quote: | If you do not have confessional LCMS congregations in your area, or
if you
are concerned about the current direction of the LCMS, you could
also check
for Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) and Evangelical
Lutheran
Synod (ELS) congregations. I grew up LCMS but now attend a WELS
congregation because of what is currently happening in the LCMS (PSD
specifically for those in the LCMS). You can locate WELS and ELS
congregations here:
|
Thanks Michael. I will check out these links.
MAK |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Toranut97
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 8:18 am Post subject: Re: LCMS vs. ELCA |
|
|
Allow me to say, as an ELCA pastor, that false statements about the ELCA are
commonplace in this newsgroup. The scriptural bases for some decisions of
the ELCA in the past (e.g. ordination of women) have been misstated, for
example. Because the approach to the interpretation of Scripture in the ELCA
differs radically from that of the LCMS, our churches land in radically
different places in many matters. I feel no need to attack the views of the
LCMS. Personally I find their attacks on the ELCA to be very revealing; that
is to say, the true nature of the LCMS is made clearer.
It sounds like your inclination is towards a more conservative faith
understanding. In that case, you will indeed feel a greater affinity with
the LCMS. I hope your faith journey continues in a positive and enriching
direction there. Should you desire any other information about the ELCA,
aside from the denominational website, please do not hesitate to contact me
off-list.
Donna
www.gslc-cu.org |
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kami
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:45 am Post subject: Re: LCMS vs. ELCA |
|
|
Toranut97 wrote:
| Quote: | Because the approach to the interpretation of Scripture in the ELCA
differs radically from that of the LCMS, our churches land in
radically different places in many matters. I feel no need to attack
the views of the LCMS. Personally I find their attacks on the ELCA...
|
How is stating the official sydnodical stances on theological matters
"attacking"? By the token, how is pointing out how those differnces
lead to radicaly seperate conclusions regarding the Christian faith and
life
also attacking?
The fact the LCMS and ELCA differ rather radically regarding their
theology as well as the basis for thay theology is something that can
easily be discerned by simply visiting both websites at:
www.lcms.org
www.elca.org
The differnce basically stems from how each regards Scripture. There is
a far cry between stating the Bible is God's word and
stating the Bible merely contains God's word. While there certainly may
be those in ELCA who do hold to the Holu Ghost inspired and inerrent
Scriptures which state a true and factual accounts of God's supernatural
work throughout human history the fact is, officially ELCA
as a whole does not hold to them in that way.
Kami
===
---
www.lcms.org/belief/doct-01.html
1. We teach that the Holy Scriptures differ from all other books in the
world in that they are the Word of God. They are the Word of God because
the holy men of God who wrote the Scriptures wrote only that which the
Holy Ghost communicated to them by inspiration, 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet.
1:21. We teach also that the verbal inspiration of the Scriptures is not
a so-called 'theological deduction,' but that it is taught by direct
statements of the Scriptures, 2 Tim. 3:16, John 10:35, Rom. 3:2; 1 Cor.
2:13. Since the Holy Scriptures are the Word of God, it goes without
saying that they contain no errors or contradictions, but that they are
in all their parts and words the infallible truth, also in those parts
which treat of historical, geographical, and other secular matters, John
10:35.
2.) We furthermore teach regarding the Holy Scriptures that they are
given by God to the Christian Church for the foundation of faith, Eph.
2:20. Hence the Holy Scriptures are the sole source from which all
doctrines proclaimed in the Christian Church must be taken and
therefore, too, the sole rule and norm by which all teachers and
doctrines must be examined and judged. -- With the Confessions of our
Church we teach also that the "rule of faith" (analogia fidei) according
to which the Holy Scriptures are to be understood are the clear passages
of the Scriptures themselves which set forth the individual doctrines.
(Apology. Triglot, p. 441, Paragraph 60; Mueller, p. 684). The rule of
faith is not the man-made so-called 'totality of Scripture' ('Ganzes der
Schrift').
---
---
http://www.elca.org/co/brief.html#thebible
"To borrow a phrase from Luther, the Bible is 'the manger in which the
Word of God is laid.While Lutherans recognize differences in the way the
Bible should be studied and interpreted, it is accepted as the primary
and authoritative witness to the church's faith. Written and
transcribed by many authors over a period of many centuries, the Bible
bears remarkable testimony to the mighty acts of God in the lives of
people and nations. In the Old Testament is found the vivid account
of God's covenant relationship to Israel. In the New Testament is
found the story of God's new covenant with all of creation in Jesus.
The New Testament is the first-hand proclamation of those who lived
through the events of Jesus' life, death, and Resurrection. As such, it
is the authority for Christian faith and practice. The Bible is thus
not a definitive record of history or science. Rather, it is the
record of the drama of God's saving care for creation throughout the
course of history."
--- |
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Toranut97
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:16 am Post subject: Re: LCMS vs. ELCA |
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Let's go to a greater authority than the simplified statement you found on the website. I believe what you were quoting was meant to paraphrase the following passage from our constitution:
2.02. This church confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and the Gospel as the power of God for the salvation of all who believe.
a. Jesus Christ is the Word of God incarnate, through whom everything was made and through whose life, death, and resurrection God fashions a new creation.
b. The proclamation of God’s message to us as both Law and Gospel is the Word of God, revealing judgment and mercy through word and deed, beginning with the Word in creation, continuing in the history of Israel, and centering in all its fullness in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
c. The canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the written Word of God. Inspired by God’s Spirit speaking through their authors, they record and announce God’s revelation centering in Jesus Christ. Through them God’s Spirit speaks to us to create and sustain Christian faith and fellowship for service in the world.
2.03. This church accepts the canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the inspired Word of God and the authoritative source and norm of its proclamation, faith, and life.
-------------------------------------
There is nothing I can write or say about the ELCA that is anywhere near satisfactory to the LCMS folk on this list. That's fine, and it is certainly not my goal to appease the LCMS. (Obviously it is not the goal of the ELCA, either!) It cannot be done! I also see no need to constantly be forced to defend my church body here and I refuse to do it. This is supposed to be a Lutheran discussion group --- yet those of us in the ELCA find ourselves pre-judged and continually driven away from this group. How many ELCA-ers stick around here for any length of time? Can't we at least agree to disagree in a civil manner? I do not attack the LCMS here. I told MAK to head on over to the LCMS and enjoy blessings and enrichment there. I meant it sincerely. Can't we leave well enough alone?
Donna |
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MAK
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:17 am Post subject: Re: LCMS vs. ELCA |
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"Toranut97" <smith.donna@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:PJ3ib.543707$cF.211652@rwcrnsc53...
| Quote: | Allow me to say, as an ELCA pastor, that false statements about the
ELCA are
commonplace in this newsgroup. The scriptural bases for some
decisions of
the ELCA in the past (e.g. ordination of women) have been misstated,
for
example. Because the approach to the interpretation of Scripture in
the ELCA
differs radically from that of the LCMS, our churches land in
radically
different places in many matters. I feel no need to attack the views
of the
LCMS. Personally I find their attacks on the ELCA to be very
revealing; that
is to say, the true nature of the LCMS is made clearer.
It sounds like your inclination is towards a more conservative faith
understanding. In that case, you will indeed feel a greater affinity
with
the LCMS. I hope your faith journey continues in a positive and
enriching
direction there. Should you desire any other information about the
ELCA,
aside from the denominational website, please do not hesitate to
contact me
off-list.
Donna
www.gslc-cu.org
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Hello Pastor Donna:
Thanks for your response. |
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kami
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:52 am Post subject: Re: LCMS vs. ELCA |
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Toranut97 wrote:
| Quote: | Can't we at least agree to disagree in a civil manner? I do not
attack the LCMS here. I told MAK to head on over to the LCMS and
enjoy blessings and enrichment there. I meant it sincerely. Can't we
leave well enough alone?
|
If there's to be discussion there also should be honesty regarding the
official stands of the synods.
At the ELCA webite within their FAQ section it states:
www.elca.org/co/faq/elcalcms.html
"The pattern of Scripture interpretation generally practiced in the ELCA
seeks to consider carefully the meanings of passages and their form. The
time and place in which passages were written are studied to assist in
interpretation. Emphasis is placed on the message of a text in the
context of Scripture. As indicated in the ELCA's constitution, 'This
church accepts the canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as
the inspired Word of God and the authoritative source and norm of its
proclamation, faith, and life.'"
This, in one breath while ELCA as a denomination states the Bible is:
"The canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the written
Word of God. Inspired by God’s Spirit speaking through their authors,
they record and announce God’s revelation centering in Jesus Christ.
Through them God’s Spirit speaks to us to create and sustain Christian
faith and fellowship for service in the world..." they are also stating
it doesn't need to have literal application whether or not the words of
the passage read indicates it or not. That while it is "inspirired" and
may hold God's truth...it does not need to be factual or a historical
account. Which is evidenced by what was found within their FAQ
section regarding the Genesis creation:
www.elca.org/co/faq/evolution.html
"The ELCA doesn't have an official position on creation vs. evolution,
but we subscribe to the historical-critical method of biblical
interpretation, so we believe God created the universe and all that is
therein, only not necessarily in six 24-hour days, and that he may
actually have used evolution in the process of creation.
'Historical criticism' is an understanding that the Bible must be
understood in the cultural context of the times in which it was written."
Taken to the extreme so-called "Historical criticism" and confining the
Bible to it's "cultural context" can ultimately deny Jesus Christ,
who is is, and what He has done for us by His death and resurrection.
IE: Loss of faith and salvation.
ELCA plainly leaves open to various teachings and doctrines. The same
danger is growing within the LCMS by those who desire the synod to also
be more open and supporting of conflicting views regarding the
Scriptures which in turn heavily affects Christian doctine and life.
Again, this is speaking of the church as a denomination. What is
officially and publically allowed within its doctrines.
It is required there be an open and honest understanding regarding
where and how the two synod's stand and on what basis for any attempt at
honest acknowledgement to take place. "Agreement to disagree" usually
gives the impression that somehow the disagreement is of no concquence
even though, when it comes to the Scriptures, it is. It would be better
said: "Agree that we disagree".
Yet, as stated, even this would also
require there be an open and honest look regarding the differnces and
where they stem...and not simply brush them aside.
Kami |
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A Mighty Fortress
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 6:00 am Post subject: Re: LCMS vs. ELCA |
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"Toranut97" <Toranut97@insightbb.com> wrote in message news:<XEiib.549702
<SNIP ELCA statement>
| Quote: |
There is nothing I can write or say about the ELCA that is anywhere near
satisfactory to the LCMS folk on this list. That's fine, and it is
certainly not my goal to appease the LCMS. (Obviously it is not the goal
of the ELCA, either!) It cannot be done!
|
Sure it can. It would take and exit from denial as to the meaning of
the scriptures on the ELCA's part, first.
| Quote: | I also see no need to
constantly be forced to defend my church body here and I refuse to do
it. This is supposed to be a Lutheran discussion group --- yet those of
us in the ELCA find ourselves pre-judged and continually driven away
from this group.
|
Pre-judged? It's hardly being "judged" to only repeat what the ELCA
already says. If you feel persecuted, that is meerly your conscience
barking at you.
| Quote: | How many ELCA-ers stick around here for any length of
time? Can't we at least agree to disagree in a civil manner? I do not
attack the LCMS here.
|
tsk tsk tsk pastor Donna... you know that isn't true. I have been the
recipient of your insults before. As a seminarian, I have even been
the recipients of your attacks on LCMS policy at the seminary. Please,
try to be honest in the future. A lot of people read this.
| Quote: | I told MAK to head on over to the LCMS and enjoy
blessings and enrichment there. I meant it sincerely. Can't we leave
well enough alone?
|
Apathy is the enemy of all Christians. So, leaving it "well enough
alone" is not an option for any Christian who cares about the truth.
It isn't just the LCMS who feels this way, even though you would like
to paint us as the sole vilian in your "can't we all just get along"
diatribes.
---Brandt
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Scott
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:36 am Post subject: Re: LCMS vs. ELCA |
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"Toranut97" <smith.donna@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:PJ3ib.543707$cF.211652@rwcrnsc53...
| Quote: | Allow me to say, as an ELCA pastor, that false statements about the ELCA
are
commonplace in this newsgroup. The scriptural bases for some decisions of
the ELCA in the past (e.g. ordination of women) have been misstated, for
example. Because the approach to the interpretation of Scripture in the
ELCA
differs radically from that of the LCMS, our churches land in radically
different places in many matters. I feel no need to attack the views of
the
LCMS. Personally I find their attacks on the ELCA to be very revealing;
that
is to say, the true nature of the LCMS is made clearer.
|
I think perhaps this is a compliment. However, I do not see where I made
and
false statements. I am always willing to admit when I am wrong, when you
can
show me by scripture where the error is. I have tried to have civil
exchanges with
members of ELCA but as we get deeper into scripture things tend to fall
apart.
Am I attacking the ELCA or making false statements? NO I am not.
I am simply trying to present things on an equal footing.
The sheer fact that you have been ordained in the first place shows where we
differ when it comes to scripture. But since you are so close to the issue
perhaps
you can help me out. How DOES the ELCA justify ordaining women? Where
does scripture provide for such an occurence?
If the Church is the bride of Christ, then it follows that the person
leading the
Church in the stead of Christ be male. So how do you justify ordaining
women??
I'm not asking to be flippant, I'm asking because I honestly don't
understand.
| Quote: |
It sounds like your inclination is towards a more conservative faith
understanding. In that case, you will indeed feel a greater affinity with
the LCMS. I hope your faith journey continues in a positive and enriching
direction there. Should you desire any other information about the ELCA,
aside from the denominational website, please do not hesitate to contact
me
off-list.
Donna
www.gslc-cu.org |
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RJ
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:23 am Post subject: Re: LCMS vs. ELCA |
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Scott <brn2dipATyahooDOTcom> wrote:
| Quote: | If the Church is the bride of Christ, then it follows that the person
leading the
Church in the stead of Christ be male.
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You must be leaving a lot out, because that sentence by itself makes no
sense. Unless you're speaking of the Pope, maybe. |
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Toranut97
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:37 am Post subject: Re: LCMS vs. ELCA |
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Hello Scott,
The statements I considered to be misrepresentations of the bases for ELCA
decisions in your recent posts were the following (I quote your post in this
same thread):
"The ELCA argument to this position, at least on this list, seems to center
on what Christ said
in John 13:43: "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another;
even as I have
loved you, that you also love one another." This passage is used to say
that we now accept
homosexuality and women pastors simply because to do so would be
"unloving". The fact
of the matter is that Christ is simply saying that this is a NEW
COMMANDMENT, He is
NOT saying that this is the ONLY commandment or that this supercedes prior
scripture."
I had not previously heard the passage from John used in support of the
positions you mention. So, to me, this is a misrepresentation. It implies
that the ELCA has just thrown up its "hands" and said, "Anything goes!" The
majority of differences between the ELCA and LCMS stem from the different
approaches we have in scriptural interpretation. The historical-critical
approach involves studying scripture in its historical context. That is how
women end up being ordained. Part of that is also a study of the positive
portrayals of women in leadership in the New Testament (as well as the OT --
Deborah, Huldah, etc.)
This explains why your discussions with ELCA folk "fall apart" when you get
"deeper" into Scripture. The reader who takes a literal approach will end up
in a different place than the person who utilizes the historical-critical
method. I know my "justifications" for the ELCA positions will never hold up
under literalist scrutiny. That's why we so often talk past each other
around here, I think. Just IMHO.
Donna
"Scott" <brn2dipATyahooDOTcom> wrote in message
news:AeOcnUmwb7rcsReiU-KYiQ@comcast.com...
| Quote: |
"Toranut97" <smith.donna@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:PJ3ib.543707$cF.211652@rwcrnsc53...
Allow me to say, as an ELCA pastor, that false statements about the ELCA
are
commonplace in this newsgroup. The scriptural bases for some decisions
of
the ELCA in the past (e.g. ordination of women) have been misstated, for
example. Because the approach to the interpretation of Scripture in the
ELCA
differs radically from that of the LCMS, our churches land in radically
different places in many matters. I feel no need to attack the views of
the
LCMS. Personally I find their attacks on the ELCA to be very revealing;
that
is to say, the true nature of the LCMS is made clearer.
I think perhaps this is a compliment. However, I do not see where I made
and
false statements. I am always willing to admit when I am wrong, when you
can
show me by scripture where the error is. I have tried to have civil
exchanges with
members of ELCA but as we get deeper into scripture things tend to fall
apart.
Am I attacking the ELCA or making false statements? NO I am not.
I am simply trying to present things on an equal footing.
The sheer fact that you have been ordained in the first place shows where
we
differ when it comes to scripture. But since you are so close to the
issue
perhaps
you can help me out. How DOES the ELCA justify ordaining women? Where
does scripture provide for such an occurence?
If the Church is the bride of Christ, then it follows that the person
leading the
Church in the stead of Christ be male. So how do you justify ordaining
women??
I'm not asking to be flippant, I'm asking because I honestly don't
understand.
It sounds like your inclination is towards a more conservative faith
understanding. In that case, you will indeed feel a greater affinity
with
the LCMS. I hope your faith journey continues in a positive and
enriching
direction there. Should you desire any other information about the ELCA,
aside from the denominational website, please do not hesitate to contact
me
off-list.
Donna
www.gslc-cu.org
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