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penitent leper
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 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: (OT) Spirituality and Historical Events |
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On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:19:48 +1300, "Mouldy Jester" <Noway@getlost.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:kk8e20h96ec4tvk1cpsu14eqn3q2vnun8o@4ax.com...
On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:31:55 +1300, "Mouldy Jester" <Noway@getlost.com
wrote:
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
size snip
[snipped]
What you say has merit, and opens a whole new range of questions. Those
people accepted that God gave them some degree of revelation, (through
prophets, etc). If that revelation is false, then how do we indeed know
God
at all? Is it even possible?
Yeah, that would be a huge problem. I try to escape it by
approaching it from "below" - that "revelation" is really the human
response to sacred experience. As such it is both valuable and
flawed, of course.
I would possibly suggest that the "sacred experience" is, in itself, a
revelatory event. To experience the sacred, the sacred must to some extent
reveal itself to you.
|
It can. Also it can be discovered like the treasure in the field or
like one's own divinity, christhood, buddhaNature...
| Quote: | How can we know the Demiurge? Is the OT canon a
valid indicator for the Demiurge?
With Jung I think the demiurge is a theological projection and
metaphor for the unenlightened ego. To the extent that the Hebrew
YHVH acts like an unenlightened ego, He is demiurgic, whether or not
he has any external existence. Of course, most religions do contain
demiurgic gods, goddesses, elementals, etc. - the worst of YHVH is
only part of the larger picture. I don't think the entire Hebrew
Bible canon is demiurgic, especially the parts that disidentify god
with militant nationalism, which endorse care for the poor, sick, and
widowed, and which promote a heart rooted in Spirit rather than in
culture.
I would still hold to the more traditional Gnostic idea of Yaldaboath as a
sentient, living being. However, I also agree that that being is steeped in
ignorance, hence the vile acts that are described in the OT and the
slaughter.
However, when you think about the origins of Yaldaboath, as coming from
Sophia, who in turn ultimately came from the Ineffable Father, (albeit
distantly), there must some small, tiny element of that divinity in him.
Therefore, I am not surprised that some of his actions, ideas and commands
reflect some of the same qualities as Christ or the prophets. Can you see
what I am driving at here?
|
I think so - he has a conscience which is occluded by his insecurity
and ignorance? So even some Gnostics predicted that he would
ultimately be saved, and that even he realized ("the fear of God is
the beginning of wisdom") his limitations...?
| Quote: | [snipped]
He used to be my god without qualification. Then the
qualification(s) modified not him, but my image of him. I found the
YHVH of the progressive prophets, of the wonder workers, of the kindly
rabbis, of Jesus and Gameliel, of the mystical kabbalists. I guess
the issue comes down to the correctness of my process of selecting
among Israel's god-images - I am encouraged that Israel itself did
such selecting.
If it's not too personal, why do you feel that you have investment
in this god...? I know it's debated, especially in this group,
but:...
IF Jesus' god was the Hebrew god - yes, possibly a big If - then
couldn't you adopt a "Jesus-ist" view of that god? Just as Jesus
softened that god's contours and modified "his commandments given by
Moses", couldn't you do the same and thereby let yourself off the
torturous hook...? Not trying to simplify or trivialize your dilemma
- just curious.
After many years as an atheist and then a mainstream Christian, I have spent
a lot of time accepting that the God of Christ was indeed YHWH of the
Israelites.
|
My bias is in that direction, too, based on ancient Jewish divine
union practice, narratives, and experience. I find that while Jesus'
mystical experience can't be rationally explained/explained away, his
immersion in Jewish "prayer of the heart" (Marcus Borg) and possible
ritual "Ascent" (Morton Smith, Alan Segal) helps to place him within a
Jewish framework.
Of course, people like Klaus will tell you that the Jewish elements
in the NT are secondary accretions introduced by hylics to make Jesus
an earthbound hylic member of the Jewish race and religion...! And
that the messianic prophecies cited in the NT are bogus applications
to a bogus (Jewish, hylic) messiah.
| Quote: | There is much in the NT and OT that just doesn't fit together. I can't
remember where, but in both the OT and NT, (I am sure both), there are
passages that say that God never changes in His character. This presents a
major hurdle for me.
|
Might help to recall that this is only one among many opinions about
god. "God never changes in character" - but of course he does - he
changes his mind, recants his wrath, supports then violates the
Covenant. It might be helpful to approach it from the standpoint of
"What does it mean when differing biblical authors and texts present
differing pictures of God?" They all had their reasons, some probably
pretty obscure, for making a case for "God is This or That".
| Quote: | I wish to know what the true God is, and also what he is not.
|
Moi, aussi. The Gnostic texts presumably help sort it out
| Quote: | The actions of
both YHWH and Christ's God exhibit attributes of character, and the ancient
Christian Gnostics understood them as such.
|
Yes, but it's still mix 'n' match re: "darkness of character" - you
find the Xian god acting like The Worst Of YHVH in Acts where he
strikes down Ananias and Sepphira or where Paul promises that God will
afflict Paul's (= God's!) foes.
| Quote: | I have seen no reasonable cause
to diverge from the path set out by the likes of Valentinus and company.
If anything, I think that there is a character to the true God. In
Gnosticism, if He didn't have personality, why would he care about us?
Why
do something to save the sparks of the divine? Even self-preservation,
(if
you take a more cynical track), indicates there is some personality, even
of
a most primitive kind. If we are really our sparks of the divine, (if
these
are really our "true" selves), then the fact that the Unknowable Father
has
done something to draw us back to Himself indicates more powerfully a
personality.
Could be, I don't see why an Alien God, a Godhead, a God beyond God,
could not also manifest personally to persons. As you say, some
Gnostic texts show some personality in the True God. That, I guess
would be his immanent ("here") aspect, whereas Gnostic titles such as
Manda d'Hayye, the Profundity, the Abyss, etc., would be his
transcendent ("there") aspect.
Ok
[snipped]
For example, a mainstream Christian will try to overcome the way of the
world, and try to see suffering in a more positive light. Ideas like "our
suffering increases our holiness" and other bullshit like that.
Yep, that's a question I raised in another post re: Gibson's "The
Passion". Raised RCC, I am all too familiar with the "wounded
carnality" of Jesus' sufferings, sacrifice, and death. I don't see
suffering as positive, except in a stern but righteous self-directed
fascism - grit your teeth and bear it, it builds character, etc. I
suppose it can serve to temper one to endure...further suffering!
Great, huh?
Oh yeah, a very positive image! I think there is an element of suffering in
Gnosticism, especially the more ascetically inclined schools. However, there
is a completely different slant to the suffering and its purposes.
|
Yep, esp. in those whose life-denial is not sacrifice to a god or an
identification with JC's sufferings, but is a symbol of rebellion
against life in the body/hylic universe.
| Quote: | Once, peace to you.
|
Thanks - take care yerself.
- pl - |
|
| |
|
 Back to top |
Mouldy Jester
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: (OT) Spirituality and Historical Events |
|
|
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:ctke20l2d2vk98dvd7e8hoopmjpm54c0l2@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:19:48 +1300, "Mouldy Jester" <Noway@getlost.com
wrote:
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:kk8e20h96ec4tvk1cpsu14eqn3q2vnun8o@4ax.com...
On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:31:55 +1300, "Mouldy Jester" <Noway@getlost.com
wrote:
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
size snip
[snipped] |
| Quote: |
It can. Also it can be discovered like the treasure in the field or
like one's own divinity, christhood, buddhaNature...
|
Yes, I think Christ taught the same thing when He mentioned the precious
stone in the field and searching for the pearl. Or something to that effect.
I think there is an element of the human in it, though for real success
there also needs to be some movement in the divine. Experiencing the divine
is rarely a unilateral act.
[snipped]
| Quote: |
I think so - he has a conscience which is occluded by his insecurity
and ignorance? So even some Gnostics predicted that he would
ultimately be saved, and that even he realized ("the fear of God is
the beginning of wisdom") his limitations...?
|
I think that it is definitely possible. After all, he is not completely 100%
evil. Just possible 99.9%. Is that enough to put him beyond redemption at
the end?
[snipped]
| Quote: | After many years as an atheist and then a mainstream Christian, I have
spent
a lot of time accepting that the God of Christ was indeed YHWH of the
Israelites.
My bias is in that direction, too, based on ancient Jewish divine
union practice, narratives, and experience. I find that while Jesus'
mystical experience can't be rationally explained/explained away, his
immersion in Jewish "prayer of the heart" (Marcus Borg) and possible
ritual "Ascent" (Morton Smith, Alan Segal) helps to place him within a
Jewish framework.
Of course, people like Klaus will tell you that the Jewish elements
in the NT are secondary accretions introduced by hylics to make Jesus
an earthbound hylic member of the Jewish race and religion...! And
that the messianic prophecies cited in the NT are bogus applications
to a bogus (Jewish, hylic) messiah.
|
You might find it interesting to look into early Christian mystical
practices. While I have not found conclusive proof, there seems to have been
some contact between early Christians and the Jewish Merkavah mystics of the
time.
As I said, I can't prove it conclusively, but there are tantalising
suggestions and indications in some works. I think Gershom Scholem makes
some references. (Kater could confirm or correct that).
| Quote: | There is much in the NT and OT that just doesn't fit together. I can't
remember where, but in both the OT and NT, (I am sure both), there are
passages that say that God never changes in His character. This presents
a
major hurdle for me.
Might help to recall that this is only one among many opinions about
god. "God never changes in character" - but of course he does - he
changes his mind, recants his wrath, supports then violates the
Covenant. It might be helpful to approach it from the standpoint of
"What does it mean when differing biblical authors and texts present
differing pictures of God?" They all had their reasons, some probably
pretty obscure, for making a case for "God is This or That".
I wish to know what the true God is, and also what he is not.
Moi, aussi. The Gnostic texts presumably help sort it out
|
They certainly give a new angle on it, which is sometimes refreshing, but
also sometimes a little nerve racking. However, the Gnostic ideas on this,
and the world at large appeal to me at deeply visceral level, quite apart
from the intellectual level.
| Quote: | The actions of
both YHWH and Christ's God exhibit attributes of character, and the
ancient
Christian Gnostics understood them as such.
Yes, but it's still mix 'n' match re: "darkness of character" - you
find the Xian god acting like The Worst Of YHVH in Acts where he
strikes down Ananias and Sepphira or where Paul promises that God will
afflict Paul's (= God's!) foes.
|
Yes, that is true. I would be interested to know what the Gnostics actually
had to say about that. I should do some reading.
[snipped]
| Quote: | Oh yeah, a very positive image! I think there is an element of suffering
in
Gnosticism, especially the more ascetically inclined schools. However,
there
is a completely different slant to the suffering and its purposes.
Yep, esp. in those whose life-denial is not sacrifice to a god or an
identification with JC's sufferings, but is a symbol of rebellion
against life in the body/hylic universe.
|
Yeah, that is one of those "viscerally appealling" parts. There is something
that is basely satisfying about sticking up the creator of a world of misery
from within that same world.
As Moggin once saidf to me, it is interesting that the same idea produced
two radically different approaches to life: asceticism and libertinism.
Peace,
--
Mouldy Jester
"I keep telling you, Gnosticism ain't dualistic."
-- Krag, (30th July, 2003) |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
penitent leper
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: (OT) Spirituality and Historical Events |
|
|
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:33:43 +1300, "Mouldy Jester"
<Noway@getlost.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:ctke20l2d2vk98dvd7e8hoopmjpm54c0l2@4ax.com...
On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:19:48 +1300, "Mouldy Jester" <Noway@getlost.com
wrote:
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:kk8e20h96ec4tvk1cpsu14eqn3q2vnun8o@4ax.com...
On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:31:55 +1300, "Mouldy Jester" <Noway@getlost.com
wrote:
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
size snip
[snipped]
It can. Also it can be discovered like the treasure in the field or
like one's own divinity, christhood, buddhaNature...
Yes, I think Christ taught the same thing when He mentioned the precious
stone in the field and searching for the pearl. Or something to that effect.
I think there is an element of the human in it, though for real success
there also needs to be some movement in the divine. Experiencing the divine
is rarely a unilateral act.
|
Yeah
| Quote: | [snipped]
I think so - he has a conscience which is occluded by his insecurity
and ignorance? So even some Gnostics predicted that he would
ultimately be saved, and that even he realized ("the fear of God is
the beginning of wisdom") his limitations...?
I think that it is definitely possible. After all, he is not completely 100%
evil. Just possible 99.9%. Is that enough to put him beyond redemption at
the end?
|
I think some Gnostics taught that he would be able to scrape by.
| Quote: | [snipped]
After many years as an atheist and then a mainstream Christian, I have
spent
a lot of time accepting that the God of Christ was indeed YHWH of the
Israelites.
My bias is in that direction, too, based on ancient Jewish divine
union practice, narratives, and experience. I find that while Jesus'
mystical experience can't be rationally explained/explained away, his
immersion in Jewish "prayer of the heart" (Marcus Borg) and possible
ritual "Ascent" (Morton Smith, Alan Segal) helps to place him within a
Jewish framework.
Of course, people like Klaus will tell you that the Jewish elements
in the NT are secondary accretions introduced by hylics to make Jesus
an earthbound hylic member of the Jewish race and religion...! And
that the messianic prophecies cited in the NT are bogus applications
to a bogus (Jewish, hylic) messiah.
You might find it interesting to look into early Christian mystical
practices.
|
Yes, as I mentioned, Borg, Segal, and Smith (and probably others I
can't recall at the moment) make a fairly good case for Jesus as a
Jewish mystic in the Jewish mystical tradition...
| Quote: | While I have not found conclusive proof, there seems to have been
some contact between early Christians and the Jewish Merkavah mystics of the
time.
|
Smith aligns Jesus with pre-Kabbalah Jewish mysticism - "Ascent"
practices perhaps accounting for the "magical" traits of his ministry,
exorcisms, baptism and the eucharist, and some Johannine sayings
(Jesus is the one who has already gone up - "ascended" - and come down
from heaven), etc.
Segal aligns Jesus with the Jewish mystical experience of the
Lord's "Kavod" or radiant glory, and Paul with seeing the risen Jesus
as an expression of that Kavod.
I don't think that Scholem talks a whole lot about Jesus in this
context, but he has extremely bright and complex things to say about
Jewish mysticism generally.
| Quote: | As I said, I can't prove it conclusively, but there are tantalising
suggestions and indications in some works. I think Gershom Scholem makes
some references. (Kater could confirm or correct that).
|
Scholem makes some references but as far as I know he doesn't
subject Jesus to any in-depth study.
| Quote: | There is much in the NT and OT that just doesn't fit together. I can't
remember where, but in both the OT and NT, (I am sure both), there are
passages that say that God never changes in His character. This presents
a
major hurdle for me.
Might help to recall that this is only one among many opinions about
god. "God never changes in character" - but of course he does - he
changes his mind, recants his wrath, supports then violates the
Covenant. It might be helpful to approach it from the standpoint of
"What does it mean when differing biblical authors and texts present
differing pictures of God?" They all had their reasons, some probably
pretty obscure, for making a case for "God is This or That".
I wish to know what the true God is, and also what he is not.
Moi, aussi. The Gnostic texts presumably help sort it out
They certainly give a new angle on it, which is sometimes refreshing, but
also sometimes a little nerve racking. However, the Gnostic ideas on this,
and the world at large appeal to me at deeply visceral level, quite apart
from the intellectual level.
The actions of
both YHWH and Christ's God exhibit attributes of character, and the
ancient
Christian Gnostics understood them as such.
Yes, but it's still mix 'n' match re: "darkness of character" - you
find the Xian god acting like The Worst Of YHVH in Acts where he
strikes down Ananias and Sepphira or where Paul promises that God will
afflict Paul's (= God's!) foes.
Yes, that is true. I would be interested to know what the Gnostics actually
had to say about that. I should do some reading.
[snipped]
Oh yeah, a very positive image! I think there is an element of suffering
in
Gnosticism, especially the more ascetically inclined schools. However,
there
is a completely different slant to the suffering and its purposes.
Yep, esp. in those whose life-denial is not sacrifice to a god or an
identification with JC's sufferings, but is a symbol of rebellion
against life in the body/hylic universe.
Yeah, that is one of those "viscerally appealling" parts. There is something
that is basely satisfying about sticking up the creator of a world of misery
from within that same world.
|
Yes, "The Attack From Within Using The Tyrant's Own Weapons" is a
zestful vengeance. As Carlcat pointed out, there is virtue in the
story that Christ duped the Demiurge.
| Quote: | As Moggin once saidf to me, it is interesting that the same idea produced
two radically different approaches to life: asceticism and libertinism.
|
That is truly very interesting, and true. One of the things that
makes Gnosticism so damnably fascinating, for sure.
- pl - |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Mouldy Jester
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:25 am Post subject: Re: (OT) Spirituality and Historical Events |
|
|
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:te1i2092vfsl5h1jh2ph99hlq1tt952pre@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:33:43 +1300, "Mouldy Jester"
Noway@getlost.com> wrote:
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:ctke20l2d2vk98dvd7e8hoopmjpm54c0l2@4ax.com...
On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:19:48 +1300, "Mouldy Jester" <Noway@getlost.com
wrote:
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:kk8e20h96ec4tvk1cpsu14eqn3q2vnun8o@4ax.com...
On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:31:55 +1300, "Mouldy Jester"
Noway@getlost.com
wrote:
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
[snipped] |
| Quote: | I think some Gnostics taught that he would be able to scrape by.
|
Yes, I recall reading the same thing somewhere. It must have been in
Rudolph, or "The Nag Hammadi Library" of Robinson.
[snipped]
| Quote: | You might find it interesting to look into early Christian mystical
practices.
Yes, as I mentioned, Borg, Segal, and Smith (and probably others I
can't recall at the moment) make a fairly good case for Jesus as a
Jewish mystic in the Jewish mystical tradition...
|
Yes, I think there was much more interplay between the various religious
groups than some people are willing to admit. Rather than the "hermetically
sealed" tradition and teaching passed from Christ, through Paul to the
"Church", I think it was a whole lot messier.
[snipped]
| Quote: | Scholem makes some references but as far as I know he doesn't
subject Jesus to any in-depth study.
|
Not in depth, no. After all, it isn't exactly his focus. I found some the
snippets he does have quite interesting.
[snipped]
| Quote: | As Moggin once saidf to me, it is interesting that the same idea produced
two radically different approaches to life: asceticism and libertinism.
That is truly very interesting, and true. One of the things that
makes Gnosticism so damnably fascinating, for sure.
|
Absolutely!
--
Mouldy Jester
"I keep telling you, Gnosticism ain't dualistic."
-- Krag, (30th July, 2003) |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
penitent leper
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:17 am Post subject: Re: (OT) Spirituality and Historical Events |
|
|
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:25:11 +1300, "Mouldy Jester"
<Noway@getlost.com> wrote:
size snip
| Quote: |
You might find it interesting to look into early Christian mystical
practices.
Yes, as I mentioned, Borg, Segal, and Smith (and probably others I
can't recall at the moment) make a fairly good case for Jesus as a
Jewish mystic in the Jewish mystical tradition...
Yes, I think there was much more interplay between the various religious
groups than some people are willing to admit. Rather than the "hermetically
sealed" tradition and teaching passed from Christ, through Paul to the
"Church", I think it was a whole lot messier.
|
Could have been if we take literally the Gospel report that even
during Jesus' ministry, others were casting out demons in his name,
his response being, "If they do this, they can't be against us." So
there may have been some seepage from Jesus' movement into the
practice of other teachers and movements even while he was alive. I
suppose how much got leaked depended on how esoteric the material in
question was, and how well guarded. Not to mention that the exoteric
stuff given out in public settings, e.g., the Sermon on the
Mount/Plain, would have been attended and interpreted by a variety of
listeners.
Also, Paul's own testimony witnesses to the work of other Christian
teachers, some of whom he tolerates, others of whom he does not.
And it gets a whole lot messier indeed if any of the Gnostic claims
to apostolic connections are factual.
| Quote: | [snipped]
Scholem makes some references but as far as I know he doesn't
subject Jesus to any in-depth study.
Not in depth, no. After all, it isn't exactly his focus. I found some the
snippets he does have quite interesting.
|
I think he passes thru some in Major Trends and some of his Kabbalah
stuff.
- snipped -
- pl - |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Mouldy Jester
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: (OT) Spirituality and Historical Events |
|
|
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:ag2m20d90dubes1j5h4bjmf84us84785rq@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:25:11 +1300, "Mouldy Jester"
Noway@getlost.com> wrote:
size snip
You might find it interesting to look into early Christian mystical
practices.
Yes, as I mentioned, Borg, Segal, and Smith (and probably others I
can't recall at the moment) make a fairly good case for Jesus as a
Jewish mystic in the Jewish mystical tradition...
Yes, I think there was much more interplay between the various religious
groups than some people are willing to admit. Rather than the
"hermetically
sealed" tradition and teaching passed from Christ, through Paul to the
"Church", I think it was a whole lot messier.
Could have been if we take literally the Gospel report that even
during Jesus' ministry, others were casting out demons in his name,
his response being, "If they do this, they can't be against us." So
there may have been some seepage from Jesus' movement into the
practice of other teachers and movements even while he was alive. I
suppose how much got leaked depended on how esoteric the material in
question was, and how well guarded. Not to mention that the exoteric
stuff given out in public settings, e.g., the Sermon on the
Mount/Plain, would have been attended and interpreted by a variety of
listeners.
Also, Paul's own testimony witnesses to the work of other Christian
teachers, some of whom he tolerates, others of whom he does not.
And it gets a whole lot messier indeed if any of the Gnostic claims
to apostolic connections are factual.
|
Irenaeus and others tried desperately to show that the Gnostic teachers had
no contact with the apostles and that there was no secret teaching.
I think that there is something to be said for the idea that there were many
groups operating in the name of Christ during his life time. It was a time
of intense messianic expectation, so I guess people would naturally act on
that. While it is unlikely ever to be conclusively proven, it seems very
plausible to me.
| Quote: | [snipped]
Scholem makes some references but as far as I know he doesn't
subject Jesus to any in-depth study.
Not in depth, no. After all, it isn't exactly his focus. I found some the
snippets he does have quite interesting.
I think he passes thru some in Major Trends and some of his Kabbalah
stuff.
|
Yeah, I have enjoyed many of his books. He was a good writer.
--
Mouldy Jester
"You really *are* Moggins kiss-ass lapdoggie aren'tcha?"
--Nuvoadam, 17th January, 2004
(in reference to myself). |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Mouldy Jester
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:20 am Post subject: Re: (OT) Spirituality and Historical Events |
|
|
"Carlcat" <booboo@booboo.net> wrote in message
news:sgGVb.814$6i.528@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
| Quote: | Mouldy Jester wrote:
"Carlcat" <booboo@booboo.net> wrote in message
news:ukiVb.28246$EH5.19077@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
[snipped] |
| Quote: | This is something that has me a little worried in my own thinking.
To me, it answers such worries by saying: my worries beg the question.
If God is limited in THIS world, but we have a spirit that by its nature
goes back to God where God is NOT limited, or a soul that by receiving
Spirit can be transformed and escape the limitations of the
psychic/hylic realms, then ok we aren't expecting a change in this
world, but we can hope that God will give us spiritual power, or that
maybe our pysche/soul can be trasnformed in some way by spiritual
influence (depending on our outlook on this)... in either case, God
intervenes in things of Spirit, so we can focus there, and have no
reason to doubt God's good intentions, we just acknowledge this world
isn't run by God.
If we
accept the Biblical account, and accept that God knows a lot more than
us,
(I think in Isaiah somewhere, God claims that His ways are higher than
ours
and His thoughts are higher), then this has serious implications for our
own
ideas.
Well, it could imply that God is MORE merciful than we can imagine, MORE
good, MORE than fair, etc., than we experience here in this world, in
our human understanding. Why ignore that to posit the opposite? If
Spiritual Fruit comes from God, and consists of patience, peace, mercy,
compassion, etc., then why expect the opposite to be in God? The
opposite comes from the humans who wrote things down, who speculated,
and who misunderstood, or from other things besides God. This is true
in scripture, in people, in the invisible realms, etc. That is how to
find the Spiritual within any teaching, any scripture, any teachings on
God.
For example, God didn't intervene to stop the deaths of millions of
Jewish
people throughout the centuries. He let them die some pretty horrible
deaths
at the hands of others, and these same Jews are supposed to be His
"chosen".
Why would he do nothing?? Maybe there was a purpose or a "greater good"
that
we can have no idea about? As insane as it may seem to us?
Maybe Satan is the ruler of this world, as Paul indicates. In any case,
even the Demiurge may just be up in some distant cosmic realm, below the
True God, and yet above this world as run by Satan. Maybe archons
(rulers, principalities, and powers) act independent and in contrary
ways to Satan furthre complicating the picture.
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I have been doing a lot of thinking in this area, and I have been moving to
a specific conclusion.
I think that we could see some good in YHWH, (henceforth called Yaldaboath).
I think I wrote in another post that this is not surprising, as Yaldaboath
was, (according to Gnosticism), ultimately born from a long series of
emanations. This would make it almost inevitable that there would be some
good in him.
However, as we would never excuse Hitler for murdering around 15 million
people in the death camps because he improved the lot of the average German,
why would we excuse Yaldaboath's genocidal tendencies? Killing is killing,
no matter who is doing it. Therefore, if Yaldaboath killed people, (and
their livestock), we need to ask some serious questions about this. This is
especially so, if we are to remain with the idea that Yaldaboath is, in
fact, the True God.
Yaldaboath has stated quite clearly that we shall not kill, (it even made
his Top Ten). Yet, there he is killing people by the score, (his own
"chosen" included).
The idea that God doesn't rule here fits quite well with Gnostic ideas, and
I would also agree. I have read no sources that claim that Yaldaboath and
the Archons work at odds with each other. However, I could be in error on
that, (someone may be able to provide some sources), though I have mainly
restricted myself to Christian Gnostic sources. I have read in Rudolph's
book that there were some who taught that Yaldaboath is outside this world
himself, but still rules it, (I would say through the agency of the
Archons).
I would tend to incline more to the Gnostic idea that we are dealing with
two different entities when we deal with the Demiurge and God.
| Quote: | God simply doesn't call all the shots here, is why Paul says some of the
things he does, and it's why Satan offered Jesus rulership over all the
kingdoms, and it's why Jesus is said to have told Pilate that his
kingdom is NOT of this world.
It all starts adding up, for me. Miracles can and do happen, here, when
and if we receive a Spirit, have a Spirit, or develop our Spirit, and
then act in ways that are synchronized among similar people who are
Spiritual in some capacity, to arrange things for the better. That
could explain much Spiritual phenomenon. Commanding demons OUT of
people through spiritual power that transcends the Psychic realm, also
explains some things. Being able to baffle demons or other pychic realm
phenomenon, or to heal the psyche through KNOWING the rules of
operations in these lower realms and pulling strings, can also explain
some miracles.
Yet in many cases, the rules are difficult or impossible to manage to
our benefit, for any Spiritual reality.
Spirit/The Good has the final say ON Spirit/The Good, in realms that ARE
Spiritual/associated with The Good.
Here, Spirit can still operate through superior KNOWLEDGE and
TRANSCENDENCE. How this does or does not effect psyche, and hence
cosmic realities underlying the order and rule of the natural world and
natural/mental/emotional phenomenon, is a big topic.
|
Except in some details, I would broadly agree with most of what you have
written. Also, I have seen nothing in what you have basically said that does
not accord with a Gnostic view of the world. Christ's Kingdom not being of
this world, Paul writing that Satan is the ruler of this world and so on,
all fit well with the idea that this world is to be rejected and that God
does not rule here.
Our main source of difference seems to be the nature of the
creator/Yaldaboath/the Demiurge/ and God. That is, if I have understood you
correctly. I think that you have stated nothing that is not solved by the
Gnostic take on this issue.
[snipped]
--
Mouldy Jester
"It is dangerous to be sincere unless you are also stupid."
"Martyrdom is the only way in which a man can become famous without
ability."
-- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950) |
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Carlcat
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:10 am Post subject: Re: (OT) Spirituality and Historical Events |
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Mouldy Jester wrote:
| Quote: |
Except in some details, I would broadly agree with most of what you have
written. Also, I have seen nothing in what you have basically said that does
not accord with a Gnostic view of the world. Christ's Kingdom not being of
this world, Paul writing that Satan is the ruler of this world and so on,
all fit well with the idea that this world is to be rejected and that God
does not rule here.
Our main source of difference seems to be the nature of the
creator/Yaldaboath/the Demiurge/ and God. That is, if I have understood you
correctly. I think that you have stated nothing that is not solved by the
Gnostic take on this issue.
|
Well, I'm open to several ideas about the nature of the
creator/Yaldaboath/the Demiurge, and God.
But the main thing is God is transcendent, and NOT evil or one who
commands anything to do evil in any way. So whatever commanded genocide
is not God. |
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Mouldy Jester
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: (OT) Spirituality and Historical Events |
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"Carlcat" <bobo@bobo.com> wrote in message
news:jdhXb.3195$wD5.910@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
| Quote: | Mouldy Jester wrote:
Except in some details, I would broadly agree with most of what you have
written. Also, I have seen nothing in what you have basically said that
does
not accord with a Gnostic view of the world. Christ's Kingdom not being
of
this world, Paul writing that Satan is the ruler of this world and so
on,
all fit well with the idea that this world is to be rejected and that
God
does not rule here.
Our main source of difference seems to be the nature of the
creator/Yaldaboath/the Demiurge/ and God. That is, if I have understood
you
correctly. I think that you have stated nothing that is not solved by
the
Gnostic take on this issue.
Well, I'm open to several ideas about the nature of the
creator/Yaldaboath/the Demiurge, and God.
But the main thing is God is transcendent, and NOT evil or one who
commands anything to do evil in any way. So whatever commanded genocide
is not God.
|
I think we have another "duck".  Good to hear!
--
Mouldy Jester
"It is dangerous to be sincere unless you are also stupid."
"Martyrdom is the only way in which a man can become famous without
ability."
-- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950) |
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Carlcat
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:38 am Post subject: Re: (OT) Spirituality and Historical Events |
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Mouldy Jester wrote:
| Quote: | "Carlcat" <bobo@bobo.com> wrote in message
news:jdhXb.3195$wD5.910@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
Our main source of difference seems to be the nature of the
creator/Yaldaboath/the Demiurge/ and God. That is, if I have understood
you
correctly. I think that you have stated nothing that is not solved by
the
Gnostic take on this issue.
Well, I'm open to several ideas about the nature of the
creator/Yaldaboath/the Demiurge, and God.
But the main thing is God is transcendent, and NOT evil or one who
commands anything to do evil in any way. So whatever commanded genocide
is not God.
I think we have another "duck". Good to hear!
--
Mouldy Jester
|
Oh yeah, you wouldn't believe all the people who shout 'quack' when I'm
done voicing my heretical viewpoints... |
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Mouldy Jester
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:52 am Post subject: Re: (OT) Spirituality and Historical Events |
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|
"Carlcat" <booboo@booboo.net> wrote in message
news:COuXb.21902$1S1.865@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
| Quote: | Mouldy Jester wrote:
"Carlcat" <bobo@bobo.com> wrote in message
news:jdhXb.3195$wD5.910@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
Our main source of difference seems to be the nature of the
creator/Yaldaboath/the Demiurge/ and God. That is, if I have understood
you
correctly. I think that you have stated nothing that is not solved by
the
Gnostic take on this issue.
Well, I'm open to several ideas about the nature of the
creator/Yaldaboath/the Demiurge, and God.
But the main thing is God is transcendent, and NOT evil or one who
commands anything to do evil in any way. So whatever commanded genocide
is not God.
I think we have another "duck". Good to hear!
--
Mouldy Jester
Oh yeah, you wouldn't believe all the people who shout 'quack' when I'm
done voicing my heretical viewpoints...
|
Probably about the same number as when I have done with mine....
--
Mouldy Jester
"I keep telling you, Gnosticism ain't dualistic."
-- Krag, (30th July, 2003) |
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