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Kent Johnson
Guest
|
 Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: Pilgrims' Notes |
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|
It is my contention that 'Abdu'l-Baha said pretty much every idea and
sentiment found in Promulgation of Universal Peace and Partis Talks, but
Mark and Susan routinely call those two works "Pilgrims' Notes".
Here is something from another list by another author (not me):
.....it's my understanding that its contents are NOT pilgrim notes and that
the book is on a par with Some Answered Questions . If they were just
pilgrim notes, they would never be included in other compilations such as
Baha'i World Faith. Whereas pilgrim notes are just that -- notes/memories of
visits with 'Abdu'l-Baha -- Some Answered Questions and The Promulgation of
Universal Peace are both compilations of talks/dissertations given by
'Abdu'l-Baha at formal sessions during his monumental visit to the US and
Canada in 1912. SAQ answers questions directed TO 'Abdu'l-Baha, while PUP
contains commentary on subjects chosen BY 'Abdu'l-Baha. You might wish to
share the following with others having that same impression.
This treasury of His words is a compilation of informal talks and
extemporary discourses delivered in Persian and Arabic, interpreted by
proficient linguists who accompanied Him, and taken stenographically in both
Oriental and Occidental tongue. [Howard MacNutt, excerpted from 1922
Introduction, "The Promulgation of Universal Peace"]
Some Answered Questions is perhaps closest in format to The Promulgation of
Universal Peace -- a series of discourses on a variety of topics. But Some
Answered Questions was shaped by questions put to 'Abdu'l-Baha. In The
Promulgation of Universal Peace 'Abdu'l-Baha, for the most part, chose the
topics -- chose them with care and determination, sometimes even with
deliberate repetition. For He had come to the West, not as a tourist, but as
an emissary, as it were, of His father ... [National Spiritual Assembly of
the Baha'is of the United States, excerpted from 1982 Introduction, The
Promulgation of Universal Peace, commemmorating the 70th anniversary of
'Abdu'l-Baha's visit to North America]
Please comment.
--Kent |
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Poststructuralist
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
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Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | It is my contention that 'Abdu'l-Baha said pretty much every idea and
sentiment found in Promulgation of Universal Peace and Partis Talks, bu
t
Mark and Susan routinely call those two works "Pilgrims' Notes".
|
Kent:
I don't think I ever said that Promulgation was entirely pilgrims'
notes. However, the parts of that volume for which there is no Persian
original would have the *status* of a pilgrim's notes.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
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Hi Mark,
And which parts have the status of Pilgrims's notes? Is there a listing, or
do you have any idea how one could find out?
And I assume you are now saying that the "status of pilgrims' notes" means
that the "degree of authenticity" is questioned. Is that correct?
--Kent
"Poststructuralist" <drfosternotfromgloucester@nospamgmail.com> wrote in
message news:Pv-dnUOVxvpmGR7VnZ2dnUVZ_rbinZ2d@giganews.com...
Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | It is my contention that 'Abdu'l-Baha said pretty much every idea and
sentiment found in Promulgation of Universal Peace and Partis Talks, bu
t
Mark and Susan routinely call those two works "Pilgrims' Notes".
|
Kent:
I don't think I ever said that Promulgation was entirely pilgrims'
notes. However, the parts of that volume for which there is no Persian
original would have the *status* of a pilgrim's notes.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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Poststructuralist
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
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Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | And which parts have the status of Pilgrims's notes? Is there a listin
g, or
do you have any idea how one could find out?
|
I would not be able to list them. Perhaps the Research Department at the
Baha'i World Centre would have that information.
I have in my possession (somewhere) a letter from the World Centre in
which they said that the term "science of reality" in that book was not
in the Persian original.
| Quote: | And I assume you are now saying that the "status of pilgrims' notes" me
ans
that the "degree of authenticity" is questioned. Is that correct?
|
Yes, more precisely, that the text was not written or approved by the
author (`Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, etc.). A non-authenticated
pilgrim's notes can be a primary historical source, but they cannot be
regarded as having scriptural authority.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
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Hi Mark,
"A non-authenticated pilgrim's notes can be a primary historical source, but
they cannot be regarded as having scriptural authority."
Agreed. That does not mean that the words translated do not estimate the
sentiments subscribed to and elucidated by 'Abdu'l-Baha.
"I have in my possession (somewhere) a letter from the World Centre in which
they said that the term "science of reality" in that book was not in the
Persian original."
That phrase appears once: "The Books of God have been revealed for the
upbuilding of fellowship and union. The Prophets of God have been the
servants of reality; Their teachings constitute the science of reality.
Reality is one; it does not admit plurality. We conclude, therefore, that
the foundation of the religions of God is one foundation. Notwithstanding
this, certain forms and imitations have been persistently adhered to which
have nothing to do with the foundation of the teachings of the Prophets of
God. (Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 297)
It does not appear to me that phrase is central to the meaning of this
passage.
The question remains: Why confuse the issue of Pilgrim's Notes with
non-authenticated texts?
A few months ago I read Mahumud's Diary in English. He was wrong on several
dates and did not mention many significant events (like the Day of the
Covenant). But he certainly insisted that every talk given by 'Abdu'l-Baha
was reviewed and corrected by 'Abdu'l-Baha before it was released. He
mentioned a few times that reporters quoted the talks before the official
translations were approved.
--Kent
"Poststructuralist" <drfosternotfromgloucester@nospamgmail.com> wrote in
message news:6rCdneH0Y78eVR7VnZ2dnUVZ_s7inZ2d@giganews.com...
Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | And which parts have the status of Pilgrims's notes? Is there a listin
g, or
do you have any idea how one could find out?
|
I would not be able to list them. Perhaps the Research Department at the
Baha'i World Centre would have that information.
I have in my possession (somewhere) a letter from the World Centre in
which they said that the term "science of reality" in that book was not
in the Persian original.
| Quote: | And I assume you are now saying that the "status of pilgrims' notes" me
ans
that the "degree of authenticity" is questioned. Is that correct?
|
Yes, more precisely, that the text was not written or approved by the
author (`Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, etc.). A non-authenticated
pilgrim's notes can be a primary historical source, but they cannot be
regarded as having scriptural authority.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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Poststructuralist
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
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Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | Agreed. That does not mean that the words translated do not estimate t
he
sentiments subscribed to and elucidated by 'Abdu'l-Baha.
|
Yes, but there is no way to be sure, which is why unapproved talks are
not scriptural.
| Quote: | It does not appear to me that phrase is central to the meaning of this
passage.
|
No, but it does raise the issue of why the translator added an entire
phrase that was not in the original Persian.
| Quote: | The question remains: Why confuse the issue of Pilgrim's Notes with
non-authenticated texts?
|
Because neither are scriptural. The Baha'i Faith, like certain other
religions, has a text-based authority system.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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| Back to top |
Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
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|
Hi Mark,
"...which is why unapproved talks are not scriptural."
I don't disagree with categorizing unauthenticated texts as such. I
disagree with calling them "Pilgrims' Notes" and lumping entire books into
that category when we don't know which parts of those books might be
unauthenticated, those books are well know, and no one knows of a single
substantive error in any of them.
--Kent
"Poststructuralist" <drfosternotfromgloucester@nospamgmail.com> wrote in
message news:OMWdnfapWKFi-xnVnZ2dnUVZ_uydnZ2d@giganews.com...
Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | Agreed. That does not mean that the words translated do not estimate t
he
sentiments subscribed to and elucidated by 'Abdu'l-Baha.
|
Yes, but there is no way to be sure, which is why unapproved talks are
not scriptural.
| Quote: | It does not appear to me that phrase is central to the meaning of this
passage.
|
No, but it does raise the issue of why the translator added an entire
phrase that was not in the original Persian.
| Quote: | The question remains: Why confuse the issue of Pilgrim's Notes with
non-authenticated texts?
|
Because neither are scriptural. The Baha'i Faith, like certain other
religions, has a text-based authority system.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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| Back to top |
Susan Maneck
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:01 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
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|
no one knows of a single
| Quote: | substantive error in any of them.
|
Dear Kent,
Who said no one "knows of a single substantative error" in them?
warmest, Susan |
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Poststructuralist
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
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Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | I don't disagree with categorizing unauthenticated texts as such. I
disagree with calling them "Pilgrims' Notes" and lumping entire books i
nto
that category when we don't know which parts of those books might be
unauthenticated, those books are well know, and no one knows of a singl
e
substantive error in any of them.
|
If you believe that certain unauthenticated texts do not have "a single
substantive error in any of them," what are you basing that on?
Presumably, you are basing your conclusion on comparing those
unauthenticated texts to authenticated ones, right?
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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Poststructuralist
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
|
|
Susan Maneck wrote:
| Quote: | Who said no one "knows of a single substantative error" in them?
|
Susan,
Yes. I know of an entire Baha'i-inspired organization, which will go
nameless, which was originally named after an error in one of
`Abdu'l-Baha's talks.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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| Back to top |
Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
|
|
Hi Mark,
"...what are you basing that on?"
Foremost that you and Susan, the foremost proponents of discounting
unauthenticated texts that I have met, have not offered any specific error
upon which to base your beliefs that these well-accepted and highly
inspirational texts should be discounted.
It seems to me, anyone with such proclivity to caution on the matter would
have collected some errors for examples, to protect such an unpopular
position. Also, it would seem to me that promoting such a high degree of
caution, you would at least know of a few specific passages that are surely
unauthenticated. As it stands now it seems to me it is only your stature as
a Bahá'i and a scientist upon which you are basing the denial of these two
books.
As a Bahá'i it is my duty from God to investigate that your reasons for
robbing the Bahá'i community of confidence in the truths presented in these
books. I believe I need to see with my own eyes if you really have reason to
rob the Bahá'i community of the inspirational messages of those two books.
So far I see you two discounting two books for no reason other than
admission by the Universal House of Justice that some texts included in
those books do not, at this time, have the original approved Persian text on
file anywhere.
If there were some unauthenticated texts that we could name with surety,
then we could begin to catalog and research how they were produced, who were
the translators, if the original text is lost forever, did He write similar
passages elsewhere, that kind of thing. But until then you have, based on
your lack of knowledge of the origin of possibly just a few passages, thrown
out the entire books, and promoted that other Bahá'is disregard those texts
as well.
--Kent
-----Original Message-----
From: Poststructuralist [mailto:drfosternotfromgloucester@nospamgmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 12:07 AM
To: soc-religion-bahai@moderators.isc.org
Subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes
Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | I don't disagree with categorizing unauthenticated texts as such. I
disagree with calling them "Pilgrims' Notes" and lumping entire books into
that category when we don't know which parts of those books might be
unauthenticated, those books are well know, and no one knows of a single
substantive error in any of them.
If you believe that certain unauthenticated texts do not have "a single |
substantive error in any of them," what are you basing that on?
Presumably, you are basing your conclusion on comparing those
unauthenticated texts to authenticated ones, right?
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net "... the modern
challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The basic fault lines today are
not between people with different beliefs but between people who hold these
beliefs with an element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs
with a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
|
| |
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| Back to top |
Poststructuralist
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
|
|
Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | Foremost that you and Susan, the foremost proponents of discounting
unauthenticated texts that I have met, have not offered any specific er
ror
upon which to base your beliefs that these well-accepted and highly
inspirational texts should be discounted.
|
When did I say to discount them? I said they did not have the status of
Baha'i scripture.
| Quote: | It seems to me, anyone with such proclivity to caution on the matter wo
uld
have collected some errors for examples, to protect such an unpopular
position.
|
Unpopular among whom?
| Quote: | Also, it would seem to me that promoting such a high degree of
caution, you would at least know of a few specific passages that are su
rely
unauthenticated.
|
My reason for not regarding them as scriptural is because Shoghi Effendi
and the House of Justice said no text could be considered as scriptural
without an authenticated original:
"Unfortunately, Abdu'l-Bahá did not read and authenticate all
transcripts of His other talks, some of which have been translated into
various languages and published. For many of His addresses included in
'The Promulgation of Universal Peace' and 'Paris Talks', for example, no
original authenticated text has yet been found. However, the Guardian
allowed such compilations to continue to be used by the friends. In the
future each talk will have to be identified and those which are
unauthenticated will have to be clearly distinguished from those which
form a part of Bahá'í Scripture. This does not mean that the
unauthenticated talks will have to cease to be used -- merely that the
degree of authenticity of every document will have to be known and
understood." (from a letter, dated 23 March 1987, by the Universal House
of Justice)
If you want to know if a particular text has an authenticated original,
you would need to write to the World Centre.
| Quote: | As a Bahá'i it is my duty from God to investigate that your reasons f
or
robbing the Bahá'i community of confidence in the truths presented in
these
books. I believe I need to see with my own eyes if you really have reas
on to
rob the Bahá'i community of the inspirational messages of those two b
ooks. |
Kent, that makes no sense to me. How am I robbing the Baha'i community
of anything?
| Quote: | If there were some unauthenticated texts that we could name with surety
,
then we could begin to catalog and research how they were produced, who
were
the translators, if the original text is lost forever, did He write sim
ilar
passages elsewhere, that kind of thing. But until then you have, based
on
your lack of knowledge of the origin of possibly just a few passages, t
hrown
out the entire books, and promoted that other Bahá'is disregard those
texts
as well.
|
If the authenticated original for a text is unknown, the text cannot be
treated as scriptural.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between peple with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Susan Maneck
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
|
|
| Quote: | As a Bahá'i it is my duty from God to investigate that your reasons for
robbing the Bahá'i community of confidence in the truths presented in t
hese
books.
|
Are you an ABM for Protection these days? Because if you were really
investigating the truth as an individual in the manner in which
Baha'u'llah says we should 'detached from love and hatred' you would
not be using emotionally loaded words like "robbing the Baha'i
community of confidence." |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
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Hi Mark,
| Quote: | When did I say to discount them?
|
You certainly allow, for example Tom, to go down the wrong road. I don't
see you correcting his errors of understanding of your ideas. He trusts
you, apparently, and you are misusing that trust if you allow him to
continue to believe unauthenticated means pilgrims' notes. I would
appreciate it if you could state clearly what you do believe since at least
two of your readers need it.
| Quote: | Unpopular among whom?
|
I believe if you were to continue the misconception that Pilgrims Notes and
unauthenticated texts are the same thing, and then name the entire books PUP
and Paris Talks as unauthenticated texts, besides being dishonest, you would
lose a lot of respect as and academic and a Baha'i.
So please, instead of talking what you did or didn't say, and what is
popular and unpopular, spend a few minutes telling us what you believe about
those texts.
| Quote: | If you want to know if a particular text has an authenticated original,
you would need to write to the World Centre.
|
And without doing so yourself you have left the clear impression that PUP
and Paris Talks are unauthenticated, and further, that they "hold the
status" of Pilgrims' notes. If that is not correct in your view, it is long
past the time when you should clarify your meaning.
| Quote: | Kent, that makes no sense to me. How am I robbing the Baha'i community of
anything?
|
Is the passage "You must become distinguished for loving humanity..."
scriptural? Is it authenticated? Does it hold the status of pilgrims'
notes? Until you answer those questions clearly that you believe it does
reflect Baha'i ideas accurately you are throwing doubt on our teachings.
Why, Mark? What does anyone gain, and what higher purpose do you serve by
doubting that passage?
| Quote: | If the authenticated original for a text is unknown, the text cannot be
treated as scriptural.
|
And if it "cannot be treated as scriptural" does that mean it is untrue?
That we should doubt it? That the translators were Covenant Breakers with
little experience translating unfamiliar with prevalent beliefs of society
in 1912?
--Kent
"Poststructuralist" <drfosternotfromgloucester@nospamgmail.com> wrote in
message news:usydnUFmBt34YhrVnZ2dnUVZ_tfinZ2d@giganews.com...
Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | Foremost that you and Susan, the foremost proponents of discounting
unauthenticated texts that I have met, have not offered any specific er
ror
upon which to base your beliefs that these well-accepted and highly
inspirational texts should be discounted.
|
When did I say to discount them? I said they did not have the status of
Baha'i scripture.
| Quote: | It seems to me, anyone with such proclivity to caution on the matter wo
uld
have collected some errors for examples, to protect such an unpopular
position.
|
Unpopular among whom?
| Quote: | Also, it would seem to me that promoting such a high degree of
caution, you would at least know of a few specific passages that are su
rely
unauthenticated.
|
My reason for not regarding them as scriptural is because Shoghi Effendi
and the House of Justice said no text could be considered as scriptural
without an authenticated original:
"Unfortunately, Abdu'l-Bahá did not read and authenticate all
transcripts of His other talks, some of which have been translated into
various languages and published. For many of His addresses included in
'The Promulgation of Universal Peace' and 'Paris Talks', for example, no
original authenticated text has yet been found. However, the Guardian
allowed such compilations to continue to be used by the friends. In the
future each talk will have to be identified and those which are
unauthenticated will have to be clearly distinguished from those which
form a part of Bahá'í Scripture. This does not mean that the
unauthenticated talks will have to cease to be used -- merely that the
degree of authenticity of every document will have to be known and
understood." (from a letter, dated 23 March 1987, by the Universal House
of Justice)
If you want to know if a particular text has an authenticated original,
you would need to write to the World Centre.
| Quote: | As a Bahá'i it is my duty from God to investigate that your reasons f
or
robbing the Bahá'i community of confidence in the truths presented in
these
books. I believe I need to see with my own eyes if you really have reas
on to
rob the Bahá'i community of the inspirational messages of those two b
ooks. |
Kent, that makes no sense to me. How am I robbing the Baha'i community
of anything?
| Quote: | If there were some unauthenticated texts that we could name with surety
,
then we could begin to catalog and research how they were produced, who
were
the translators, if the original text is lost forever, did He write sim
ilar
passages elsewhere, that kind of thing. But until then you have, based
on
your lack of knowledge of the origin of possibly just a few passages, t
hrown
out the entire books, and promoted that other Bahá'is disregard those
texts
as well.
|
If the authenticated original for a text is unknown, the text cannot be
treated as scriptural.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between peple with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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|
| Back to top |
tsuki190
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
|
|
Actually I provided a description of the difference between pilgrims notes and
unauthenticated so you are using my name here in vain.
Cheers,
Tom
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 4:10 AM, Kent Johnson <kent@compx2.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Mark,
When did I say to discount them?
You certainly allow, for example Tom, to go down the wrong road. I don't
see you correcting his errors of understanding of your ideas. He trusts
you, apparently, and you are misusing that trust if you allow him to
continue to believe unauthenticated means pilgrims' notes. I would
appreciate it if you could state clearly what you do believe since at least
two of your readers need it.
Unpopular among whom?
|
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