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Gilberto Simpson
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 Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Susan Maneck <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Kent Johnson <kent@compx2.com> wrote:
We are not to be involved in partisan politics. That is a principle of ou
r
faith. How we interpret that is up to us. If I think I can run for Presid
ent
of the US without being involved in partisan politics no one will stop me
unless and until I start bringing to the Baha'i Faith things that are
counter to Baha'i principles.
Dear Kent,
I think you are wrong about this. Dick Gregory tried to run for
president in this manner and I'm pretty sure the NSA stopped him.
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Are you sure he's Bahai? His political activities (which are admirable
and considerable) don't seem consistent with Bahai principles.
From Wikipeida:
"Dick Gregory's first TV appearance was on the Jack Paar late night
show. He soon began appearing nationally and on television and his
1964 autobiography, Nigger, sold seven million copies. At the same
time, he became more involved in struggles for civil rights, activism
against the American War in Vietnam, economic reform, anti-drug
issues, conspiracy theories, and others. As a part of his activism, he
went on several hunger strikes. Gregory began his political career by
running against Richard J. Daley for the mayoralty of Chicago in 1967.
Though he did not emerge victorious, this would not prove to be the
end of Dick Gregory's dalliances with electoral politics."
"Gregory unsuccessfully ran for President of the United States in 1968
as a write-in candidate of the Freedom and Peace Party, which had
broken off from the Peace and Freedom Party. He won 47,097 votes
(including one from Hunter S. Thompson) with fellow activist Mark Lane
as his running mate in some states, David Frost in others, garnering
more than the party he had left.[2] The Freedom and Peace Party also
ran other candidates, including Beulah Sanders for New York State
Senate and Flora Brown for New York State Assembly.[3] His efforts
landed him on the master list of Nixon political opponents.
He then wrote Write Me In about his presidential campaign. One
interesting anecdote in the book related the story of a publicity
stunt which came out of Operation Breadbasket in Chicago where the
campaign had printed $1 bills with Gregory's image on them. Some of
these bills made it into circulation in cash transactions causing
considerable problems, but priceless publicity"
[...]
Gregory was an outspoken activist during the US Embassy Hostage Crisis
in Iran. In 1980 he traveled to Tehran to attempt to negotiate the
hostages' release and engaged in a public hunger strike there,
weighing less than 100 pounds (45 kg) when he returned to the United
States. |
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Susan Maneck
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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| Quote: | I think I said I might choose to interpret the Writings in such a way, and
delude myself to such a degree, that it is okay to run for President if I
could avoid partisan politics. I said no one would stop me unless my
actions were to bring the Baha'i Faith into a negative light.
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Dear Kent,
And that is what I'm saying you are wrong about. Dick Gregory
attempted to do precisely the thing you are talking about and the NSA
stopped him.
| Quote: |
My issue is about interpretation, not candidacy,
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Well, you can interpret the Writings anyway you like, but if you were
to actually attempt to run for president, I think you would find the
Institutions would intervene.
Certainly if I were to assert that it is okay to be stingy, not
| Quote: | generous and search through the Writings for ways to back up my beliefs I
could do that, and no one would stop me (except as explained above).
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Probably not. The Institutions would not likely see this an a protection issue.
| Quote: | At least in this case you, Susan, misunderstood me.
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I don't think so.
warmest, Susan |
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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| Quote: | Are you sure he's Bahai? His political activities (which are admirable
and considerable) don't seem consistent with Bahai principles.
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Dear Gilberto,
I'm not sure if he is anymore, but at one time he was. I've not heard
anything about him in connection with the Baha'i community since the
'70's. He was definitely enrolled, unlike Cher Bono who declared but
never actually enrolled.
warmest, Susan |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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Hi Susan,
| Quote: | Dick Gregory
attempted to do precisely the thing you are talking about and the NSA
stopped him.
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Sources?
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:h9idncaVH8Gp2-PVnZ2dnUVZ_hCdnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | I think I said I might choose to interpret the Writings in such a way,
and
delude myself to such a degree, that it is okay to run for President if I
could avoid partisan politics. I said no one would stop me unless my
actions were to bring the Baha'i Faith into a negative light.
Dear Kent,
And that is what I'm saying you are wrong about. Dick Gregory
attempted to do precisely the thing you are talking about and the NSA
stopped him.
My issue is about interpretation, not candidacy,
Well, you can interpret the Writings anyway you like, but if you were
to actually attempt to run for president, I think you would find the
Institutions would intervene.
Certainly if I were to assert that it is okay to be stingy, not
generous and search through the Writings for ways to back up my beliefs I
could do that, and no one would stop me (except as explained above).
Probably not. The Institutions would not likely see this an a protection
issue.
At least in this case you, Susan, misunderstood me.
I don't think so.
warmest, Susan
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Gilberto Simpson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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I'd be really interested in seeing any specific citation or reference
on this. I've read some of his books and I've never seen a mention of
the Bahai faith even when it might seem natural. (For example, he has
a book on diet and nutrition where has definitely advocated different
kinds of juice fasts and natural foods but he doesn't mention the 19
day fast). Also, most dramatically, his belief in civil disobedience
and pacifism definitely seems in opposition to the standard Bahai
view.
-Gilberto
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Susan Maneck <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Are you sure he's Bahai? His political activities (which are admirable
and considerable) don't seem consistent with Bahai principles.
Dear Gilberto,
I'm not sure if he is anymore, but at one time he was. I've not heard
anything about him in connection with the Baha'i community since the
'70's. He was definitely enrolled, unlike Cher Bono who declared but
never actually enrolled.
warmest, Susan
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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Dear Kent,
I'm the source in this case. I remember Dick Gregory announcing his
candidacy and how it surprised us all. Afterwards, I was told by our
ABM that he had immediately withdrawn at the NSA's request.
warmest, Susan |
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Gilberto Simpson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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Perhaps my use of the phrase "believe in" was ambiguous. Gregory
definitely used and practiced civil disobedience and was known for his
political activism during the civil rights era which is exactly why
the idea that Gregory was a Bahai is so shocking to me.
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Poststructuralist
<drfosternotfromgloucester@nospamgmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Gilberto Simpson wrote:
Also, most dramatically, his belief in civil disobedience
and pacifism definitely seems in opposition to the standard Bahai
view.
I believe in civil disobedience, or nonviolent resistance, too. However,
I
recognize that it is not an option which is open to me as a Baha'i.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist
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Poststructuralist
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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Gilberto Simpson wrote:
| Quote: | Also, most dramatically, his belief in civil disobedience
and pacifism definitely seems in opposition to the standard Bahai
view.
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I believe in civil disobedience, or nonviolent resistance, too. However,
I recognize that it is not an option which is open to me as a Baha'i.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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Gilberto Simpson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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Which year are you talking about? In '68 he ran for the nomination of
the Peace and Freedom Party and when he didn't get it, he started the
Freedom and Peace Party and ran as a write-in.
-Gilberto
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Susan Maneck <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Sources?
Dear Kent,
I'm the source in this case. I remember Dick Gregory announcing his
candidacy and how it surprised us all. Afterwards, I was told by our
ABM that he had immediately withdrawn at the NSA's request.
warmest, Susan
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Poststructuralist
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:28 am Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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Gilberto Simpson wrote:
| Quote: | Gregory definitely used and practiced civil disobedience
and was known for his political activism during the civil
rights era which is exactly why the idea that Gregory was
a Bahai is so shocking to me.
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I don't know whether Gregory is still a Baha'i. However, I remember when
several celebrities either became Baha'is or had expressed some interest
in doing so. For instance, I was at the Baha'i conference in Oklahoma
City where Cher came on stage with Seals and Crofts and announced that
she had become a Baha'i. After consulting with the American National
Spiritual Assembly, she subsequently withdrew her declaration of faith.
In the late 1960s and early 1970s many people came into the Baha'i Faith
in the U.S. It was a period of massive numerical expansion. (I became a
Baha'i in December of 1970.) A lot of those people, perhaps most of
them, have since left the Baha'i Faith, or they have simply drifted away.
The growth of the Baha'i Faith back then was concurrent with the rapid
development of several other new religious movements, including the
Children of God, ISKCON (the Hare Krishnas), the Unification Church (the
Moonies), Transcendental Meditation, and the Way Ministries. The
so-called new age movement was also beginning to be popular.
Eventually, as many of these new Baha'is realized that they had joined
an "organized religion" with formal laws (especially those prohibiting
recreational drug use) and spiritual obligations, they decided it was
not for them.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude."a— Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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Hi Susan.
"I was told by our ABM that he had immediately withdrawn at the NSA's
request."
I don't doubt that happened. My point has been, and apparently bears
repeating:
Me: "I might choose to interpret the Writings in such a way, and delude
myself to such a degree, that it is okay to run for President" or "assert
that it is okay to be stingy, not generous and search through the Writings
for ways to back up my beliefs" and no one is laying in wait to pounce on me
" unless my actions were to bring the Baha'i Faith into a negative light."
According to you (but not me), the act of running for President of the US in
and of itself is enough to bring sanctions against Dick Gregory from the
NSA. I would want to hear his reasoning for doing it, his interpretation,
his motivation and what he expects as the outcome of his actions before
saying that action should be prohibited for a Baha'i.
After investigating it is reasonable to assume that he might withdraw his
candidacy or face sanctions that would have as their purpose to protect the
Baha'i Faith from one Baha'is actions. They would be accompanied by
reasoned results of the investigation. But unless and until he is heard
there may be reasoning and reasoned interpretation to justify pretty much
any action.
The difference between us here is stark, Susan. You, apparently, think the
running for President is an action that is prohibited. However, I don't.
Baha'u'llah did not say: Thou Shalt Not Run For President. I think such an
action should be investigated as to whether or not it brings unwanted or
misdirected attention to the Baha'i Faith, that no action itself is
religiously prohibited unless it was prohibited explicitly in the Writings.
In this case it was not.
The outcome is the same, probably in every case it should ever happen, but
our approaches to the issue are very different. But perhaps I misunderstand
you. When I said:
| Quote: | At least in this case you, Susan, misunderstood me.
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You replied: "I don't think so." Was this how you understood the issue? Or
is it clearer now? Or am I still missing something?
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qvydnfXOwazBEuLVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | Sources?
Dear Kent,
I'm the source in this case. I remember Dick Gregory announcing his
candidacy and how it surprised us all. Afterwards, I was told by our
ABM that he had immediately withdrawn at the NSA's request.
warmest, Susan
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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| Quote: | I'd be really interested in seeing any specific citation or reference
on this. I've read some of his books and I've never seen a mention of
the Bahai faith even when it might seem natural. (For example, he has
a book on diet and nutrition where has definitely advocated different
kinds of juice fasts and natural foods but he doesn't mention the 19
day fast).
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His diets and fasting definitely had nothing to do with the Faith. |
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Gilberto Simpson
<gilberto.simpson@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Which year are you talking about? In '68 he ran for the nomination of
the Peace and Freedom Party and when he didn't get it, he started the
Freedom and Peace Party and ran as a write-in.
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This would have been 1972. He did not run on a party ticket which is
why I think he thought it would be okay. As I said his candidacy was
short-lived.
I'm guessing he must have become a Baha'i sometime between '68 and '72. |
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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| Quote: | According to you (but not me), the act of running for President of the US in
and of itself is enough to bring sanctions against Dick Gregory from the
NSA. I would want to hear his reasoning for doing it, his interpretation,
his motivation and what he expects as the outcome of his actions before
saying that action should be prohibited for a Baha'i.
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Kent, my whole point is that this isn't up to you. It is up to the NSA
and they won't allow it. |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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Hi Susan, my whole point is that it is up to each of us, and those who stand
in the way of that, and lead people to believe that they have answers that
keep others from investigating in their own ways are harming the ideal,
eternal, and glorious Religion of God.
If you believe the NSA will automatically and immediately stop people from
running for President of the United States please believe that. You are
commanded by God to believe what you have investigated and reasoned and
independently decided. However, I find such a belief jaded. My respect for
my national assembly leads me to believe that these people will listen with
open ears to whatever nonsense or genius exists in the Baha'i community
under their jurisdiction. That the automatic gainsaying of "no" to anything
not specifically and clearly commanded by our protected and treasured
Writings is not something my Baha'i representatives would do.
Furthermore, I don't think you can speak for the NSA and tell anyone what
they will or won't do. At least that is my fervent hope and eternal prayer.
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:KKidnYjSGKfE5R3VnZ2dnUVZ_s_inZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | According to you (but not me), the act of running for President of the US
in
and of itself is enough to bring sanctions against Dick Gregory from the
NSA. I would want to hear his reasoning for doing it, his
interpretation,
his motivation and what he expects as the outcome of his actions before
saying that action should be prohibited for a Baha'i.
Kent, my whole point is that this isn't up to you. It is up to the NSA
and they won't allow it.
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