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Susan Maneck
Guest
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 Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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That the automatic gainsaying of "no" to anything
| Quote: | not specifically and clearly commanded by our protected and treasured
Writings is not something my Baha'i representatives would do.
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Kent,
I said not nothing about them gainsaying no to 'anything.' Do try not
to misrepresent my words? Or is that part of your prerogative to
interpret things for yourself?
I was addressing the specific question of whether or not they would
allow you to run for president.
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Furthermore, I don't think you can speak for the NSA and tell anyone what
they will or won't do.
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I can tell you what they *did* do under the exact circumstances which
you described. You may think you can interpret Baha'i law anyway you
like and act accordingly, but ultimately it is within the purview of
our elected institutions to decide what is and isn't allowed within
the Baha'i community.
warmest, Susan |
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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Dear friends-
My understanding of the Baha'i approach to elections etc. is that an
individual should not seek offices, nor should they become involved in
partisan politics, campaigning and other aspects of what we consider
the "old world order" characteristics of being elected. I also
understand that if a Baha'i is appointed to a govt. position, or should
a community institute a petition to elect a Baha'i then they might
accept. However it seems to be that all actions we take that would
place a Baha'i in the public eye is something that should be approved
upon by an institution of the Faith. That we should seek consultation
with an institution before running or campaigning or accepting old
world order govt. offices.
From this general overview I cannot quiet conceive of a Baha'i doing
what Dick Gregory is reported to have done. Also it seems that this
argument could easily be settled by getting advice from our NSA who can
tell us what actions were taken about Mr. Gregory's public work.
regards,
doug |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:06 am Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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Hi Susan,
| Quote: | Do try not
to misrepresent my words?
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I don't think I did. And I don't want to turn this discussion into one
about you and me. I am moderating again this week, and I probably should
have rejected your post on that basis. In the sense of the Charter, this
personal warning is more of an "attack" against me than my comment the other
day that all Baha'is are not like Susan was an attack against you.
But in any case, this is not what we are discussing, and it is against the
Charter to discuss this, so please let's stick to the issues, beginning with
| Quote: | I said not nothing about them gainsaying no to 'anything.'
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No, you said "It is up to the NSA and they won't allow it." You said it as
though you know what the NSA would do, and it is a big rubber stamp that
says "reject" in red across the entire issue. Not discussion, the end is
known and Susan knows the end.
That is automatically gainsaying "no" to this thing, which is a thing, one
of many things, an "anything". Unless you have changed your mind, or I
misunderstand "It is up to the NSA and they won't allow it.", you said the
NSA would not allow anyone to run for President of the United States,
period, no ifs ands or buts. If someone says they want to run for
President, no need to discuss it, Susan said the NSA will disallow that.
Isn't that what you are saying?
| Quote: | ... it is within the purview of
our elected institutions to decide what is and isn't allowed within
the Baha'i community.
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We have agreed on that point. Where we differ is that I believe it is a
Baha'i principle that they should investigate, and I have faith that they
would investigate, and not just say no, even if that is what you think. I
believe it is fine that you think that way, and I would appreciated the
consideration that I might be fine with my beliefs as well,
thankyouverymuch.
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bJ-dnbX865GxXB3VnZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | That the automatic gainsaying of "no" to anything
not specifically and clearly commanded by our protected and treasured
Writings is not something my Baha'i representatives would do.
Kent,
I said not nothing about them gainsaying no to 'anything.' Do try not
to misrepresent my words? Or is that part of your prerogative to
interpret things for yourself?
I was addressing the specific question of whether or not they would
allow you to run for president.
Furthermore, I don't think you can speak for the NSA and tell anyone what
they will or won't do.
I can tell you what they *did* do under the exact circumstances which
you described. You may think you can interpret Baha'i law anyway you
like and act accordingly, but ultimately it is within the purview of
our elected institutions to decide what is and isn't allowed within
the Baha'i community.
warmest, Susan
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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| Quote: | That is automatically gainsaying "no" to this thing, which is a thing, one
of many things, an "anything".
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<sigh> No Kent, saying the NSA will not allow this thing is not the
same as saying they won't allow anything. It is not how the English
language works. |
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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| Quote: | That is automatically gainsaying "no" to this thing, which is a thing, one
of many things, an "anything".
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<sigh> No Kent, saying the NSA will not allow this thing is not the
same as saying they won't allow anything. It is not how the English
language works. |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:53 am Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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Hi Susan, Did you think I said the NSA would just automatically gainsay
anything?
Jeepers, let me let my own words stand for themselves, again:
Me: "That the automatic gainsaying of "no" to anything not specifically and
clearly commanded by our protected and treasured Writings is not something
my Baha'i representatives would do"
Perhaps you just misread it.
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:K66dnc_pgqSSkhzVnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | That is automatically gainsaying "no" to this thing, which is a thing,
one
of many things, an "anything".
sigh> No Kent, saying the NSA will not allow this thing is not the
same as saying they won't allow anything. It is not how the English
language works.
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:06 am Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Kent Johnson <kent@compx2.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Susan, Did you think I said the NSA would just automatically gainsay
anything?
Jeepers, let me let my own words stand for themselves, again:
Me: "That the automatic gainsaying of "no" to anything not specifically and
clearly commanded by our protected and treasured Writings is not something
my Baha'i representatives would
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Sorry, but the qualification of 'anything no specified" in our
Writings still distorts the fact I was talking about one thing and one
thing only.
One thing is not anything. |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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Hi Susan,
| Quote: | Sorry, but the qualification of 'anything no specified" in our
Writings still distorts the fact I was talking about one thing and one
thing only.
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Are you saying that running for President of the United States is the only
action (which is not specifically mentioned in the Writings) the NSA will
automatically sanction without investigating?
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:xNqdnTQNasJTiRzVnZ2dnUVZ_rTinZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Kent Johnson <kent@compx2.com> wrote:
Hi Susan, Did you think I said the NSA would just automatically gainsay
anything?
Jeepers, let me let my own words stand for themselves, again:
Me: "That the automatic gainsaying of "no" to anything not specifically
and
clearly commanded by our protected and treasured Writings is not
something
my Baha'i representatives would
Sorry, but the qualification of 'anything no specified" in our
Writings still distorts the fact I was talking about one thing and one
thing only.
One thing is not anything.
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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| Quote: | Are you saying that running for President of the United States is the only
action (which is not specifically mentioned in the Writings) the NSA will
automatically sanction without investigating?
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Dear Kent,
I haven't said anything about investigation period. Nor have I talked
about what their reactions might be to anything else. Nor did I
mention sanctions. You made the statement that you believed the NSA
would not try and stop you if you tried to run for president so long
as you didn't get the Faith involved. I pointed out that this was not
the case because there was a precedent when Dick Gregory tried to run
for president in 1972. Obviously he did not get the Faith involved or
people here would not have been shocked to find out he was a Baha'i.
But the NSA asked him to pull out of the race and he did so.
To bring in all this other stuff is to confuse the issue with red herrings.
warmest, Susan |
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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| Quote: | Are you saying that running for President of the United States is the only
action (which is not specifically mentioned in the Writings) the NSA will
automatically sanction without investigating?
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Dear Kent,
I haven't said anything about investigation period. Nor have I talked
about what their reactions might be to anything else. Nor did I
mention sanctions. You made the statement that you believed the NSA
would not try and stop you if you tried to run for president so long
as you didn't get the Faith involved. I pointed out that this was not
the case because there was a precedent when Dick Gregory tried to run
for president in 1972. Obviously he did not get the Faith involved or
people here would not have been shocked to find out he was a Baha'i.
But the NSA asked him to pull out of the race and he did so.
To bring in all this other stuff is to confuse the issue with red herrings.
warmest, Susan |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:59 am Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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Hi Susan,
| Quote: | To bring in all this other stuff is to confuse the issue with red herrings.
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I don't think so. The point is the NSA investigated and made their decision
based on that investigation.
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Z7idnc_GoODmsR_VnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | Are you saying that running for President of the United States is the
only
action (which is not specifically mentioned in the Writings) the NSA will
automatically sanction without investigating?
Dear Kent,
I haven't said anything about investigation period. Nor have I talked
about what their reactions might be to anything else. Nor did I
mention sanctions. You made the statement that you believed the NSA
would not try and stop you if you tried to run for president so long
as you didn't get the Faith involved. I pointed out that this was not
the case because there was a precedent when Dick Gregory tried to run
for president in 1972. Obviously he did not get the Faith involved or
people here would not have been shocked to find out he was a Baha'i.
But the NSA asked him to pull out of the race and he did so.
To bring in all this other stuff is to confuse the issue with red
herrings.
warmest, Susan
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:07 am Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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| Quote: | I don't think so. The point is the NSA investigated and made their decision
based on that investigation.
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Sorry, but your original post said nothing whatsoever about
investigation. You categorically stated the following:
"If I think I can run for President
of the US without being involved in partisan politics no one will stop me
unless and until I start bringing to the Baha'i Faith things that are
counter to Baha'i principles."
That simply is not the case and it would be misleading for people to
think it is.
I think we should just drop it at this point.
Susan |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:57 am Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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Hi Susan,
You know how I hate talking about what we said. I prefer to talk about what
we believe. In this case, however, you are the one who stated "I haven't
said anything about investigation period."
I was talking about investigation when I said, in the original post:
"...bringing to the Baha'i Faith things that are counter to Baha'i
principles" for how would we bring them without finding them? And "A Baha'i
institution (there is no clergy) might intervene if publicity which
associates our Faith with these un-Bahai principles (like prejudice or
partisanship) appears, or if someone asks them to interfere. But for the
most part we are expected to act like Baha'is merely because we are Baha'is,
not because someone is watching." And intervention would be dependent upon
finding a reason to intervene.
I could go on to quote myself from my second or third or fourth posts. But
since you said > I think we should just drop it at this point.< I don't
expect you will write back.
But if so, let's try to return to some issue other than what I said in
earlier posts.
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:PYadnQMK79rL7B_VnZ2dnUVZ_qjinZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | I don't think so. The point is the NSA investigated and made their
decision
based on that investigation.
Sorry, but your original post said nothing whatsoever about
investigation. You categorically stated the following:
"If I think I can run for President
of the US without being involved in partisan politics no one will stop me
unless and until I start bringing to the Baha'i Faith things that are
counter to Baha'i principles."
That simply is not the case and it would be misleading for people to
think it is.
I think we should just drop it at this point.
Susan
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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| Quote: | You know how I hate talking about what we said.
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Dear Kent,
And what I hate is when I address something you said and you change to
something entirely different.
| Quote: | I was talking about investigation when I said, in the original post:
"...bringing to the Baha'i Faith things that are counter to Baha'i
principles" for how would we bring them without finding them?
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And I never addressed that portion of your post. Only the part that
said the NSA wouldn't do anything if you ran for president.
| Quote: | But if so, let's try to return to some issue other than what I said in
earlier posts.
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That was the only issue in this thread that interested me.
warmest, Susan |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Politics and bigotry |
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Hi Susan,
| Quote: | the part that
said the NSA wouldn't do anything if you ran for president
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I never said that.
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:tMWdnVW2qYPUgR7VnZ2dnUVZ_gGdnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | You know how I hate talking about what we said.
Dear Kent,
And what I hate is when I address something you said and you change to
something entirely different.
I was talking about investigation when I said, in the original post:
"...bringing to the Baha'i Faith things that are counter to Baha'i
principles" for how would we bring them without finding them?
And I never addressed that portion of your post. Only the part that
said the NSA wouldn't do anything if you ran for president.
But if so, let's try to return to some issue other than what I said in
earlier posts.
That was the only issue in this thread that interested me.
warmest, Susan
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