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buckeye
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 Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: Bible study in schools |
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Apr 9 2006, 9:57 am
Newsgroups: alt.politics.democrats.d, alt.politics.usa.constitution,
alt.education, alt.atheism, alt.religion.christian,
alt.politics.liberalism, alt.politics.usa.republican
From: buckeye-...@nospam.net
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 09:57:56 -0400
Local: Sun, Apr 9 2006 9:57 am
Subject: UPDATE: Bible study in schools
Another had once said in a post:
| Quote: | :|The Bible was the primary book used in schools.
|
In some, maybe, not in all by any stretch of the imagination.
| Quote: |  Thomas Jefferson supported Bible reading in school; this is proven
:|by his service as the first president of the >:|Washington, D.C.
:|public schools, which used the Bible and Watt's Hymns as textbooks for reading.
|
The above is a myth by DAVID BARTON, but when corrected does give some
information about a early public school system.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg6.htm
Thomas Jefferson supported Bible reading in school; this is proven by his
service as the first president of the Washington D. C. public schools,
which used the Bible and Watt's Hymns as textbooks for reading.
Research by Jim Allison
On page 130 in his The Myth of Separation, David Barton makes the following
claim:
Thomas Jefferson, while President of the United States, became the
first president of the Washington D. C. public school
board, which used the Bible and Watt's Hymnal as reading texts in the
classroom. Notice why Jefferson felt the Bible to
be essential in any successful plan of education:
I have always said, always will say, that the studious perusal of
the sacred volume will make us better citizens.
Barton's reference for Jefferson's service on the Washington D. C. school
board is J. O. Wilson, "Eighty Years of Public
Schools of Washington," in the Records of the Columbia Historical Society,
vol. 1, 1897, pp. 122-127. Barton's quotation
from Jefferson is taken from Herbert Lockyear, The Last Words of Saints and
Sinners, 1969.
Apparently, Barton wants us to conclude that, since Jefferson was president
of the board for a school system that used the Bible
for reading instruction, he must have approved of using the Bible in this
manner. In fact, some readers of this web site have
claimed in their e-mail correspondence with us that Jefferson requested the
Bible to be used for reading instruction. But nothing
in Barton's source supports either of these claims. In fact, Barton's
source suggests that someone other than Jefferson was
responsible for introducing the Bible into the schools, and that this
policy was adopted after Jefferson had left Washington for
retirement in Virginia. Here are the facts:
On September 19, 1805, toward the end of Jefferson's first term as
President of the United States, the board of trustees of the
Washington D. C. public schools adopted its first plan for public education
for the city. Given its resemblance to a similar plan
proposed several years earlier by Jefferson for the state of Virginia,
Wilson (Barton's source) suggests that it is likely that "he
[Jefferson] himself was the chief author of the...plan." The plan called
for the establishment of two public schools in which:
...poor children shall be taught reading, writing, grammar,
arithmetic, and such branches of the mathematics as may qualify
them for the professions they are intended to follow, and they shall
receive such other instruction as is given to pay pupils,
as the board my from time to time direct, and pay pupils shall,
besides be instructed in geography and in the Latin
language.
As you can see, there is nothing in this plan that mentions religious
education or the use of the Bible in reading instruction. Nor,
we might add, was the Bible mentioned in any of Jefferson's plans for
public education in the state of Virginia, either before or
after his presidency (check out an extract from Leonard Levy's book
Jefferson and Civil Liberties: The Darker Side for
documentation on this point). There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in
Barton's source that connects Jefferson to the practice of
Bible reading. So how did the Bible come to be used in the Washington
public schools? Remarkably, Barton's own source
provides an answer to that question.
In 1812 the board of trustees established a school that used a curriculum
developed by the British educator Joseph Landcaster,
who's system of education was becoming increasingly popular in the United
States. Wilson describes Landcaster as an
"enthusiastic but somewhat visionary schoolmaster, who adopted an
inexpensive method of educating, especially the masses of
the poor. The curriculum of his schools included reading, writing,
arithmetic, and the Bible." In an 1813 report to the board of
trustees, Henry Ould, the principle of the Landcasterian school, related
the progress his students had made in reading and
spelling:
55 have learned to read in the Old and New Testaments, and are all
able to spell words of three, four, and five syllables;
26 are now learning to read Dr. Watts' Hymns and spell words of two
syllables; 10 are learning words of four and five
letters. Of 509 out of the whole number admitted that did not know a
single letter, 20 can now read the Bible and spell
words of three, four, and five syllables, 29 read Dr. Watts' Hymns and
spell words of two syllables, and 10 words of four
and five letters.
In other words, the first mention of the use of the Bible and a Christian
hymnal in the Washington public schools is in connection
with a curriculum adopted in 1812, three years after Jefferson has left
Washington and the school board for retirement in
Virginia. Contrary to Barton's implied claim, Jefferson was not president
of the school board when the Bible was being used
for instruction. Barton simply omits information he doesn't want his
readers to know, and so allows them to draw an conclusion
that his own source refutes. Barton, we conclude, is either sloppy or
dishonest in his use of evidence. Either alternative should
cause the reader to question the soundness of Barton's scholarship.
So what about Barton's quote from Herbert Lockyear's The Last Words of
Saints and Sinners? We tracked down the book
and discovered that it had no footnotes that direct the reader back to
either Jefferson's own writings, or to secondary accounts
of Jefferson's life; the quote, in other words, is untraceable. Moreover,
we've never seen this quote referenced in any scholarly
work on Jefferson's attitude toward religion, or in any account of
Jefferson's death (the context of Lockyear's book). If Jefferson
uttered these words, it has apparently escaped the notice of most
historians.
We have simply never encountered a legitimate scholar that reports an
unfootnoted quotation from a secondary source writing
some 140 years after the fact as the truth, especially when that quotation
seems not to be known to other scholars. If Barton
wants us to accept this quote as authentic, he should be able to indicate
to where it can be found in Jefferson's works, or else
point us to a secondary source that provides the relevant documentation.
Barton does neither. It's hard to resist the conclusion
that this quote was fabricated by Lockyear, and that Barton reports it
knowing full well that there are questions as to its
authenticity. [Newsflash: Barton now admits this quotation is fabricated!
Check here for details.]
Finally, we draw your attention to a last, nagging inaccuracy in Barton's
passage. While it's true that Jefferson was elected
president of the Washington public school board in 1805, Wilson (Barton's
source) goes on to note that Jefferson was
"prevented from ever discharging its duties by others of paramount
concern." Once again, Barton misreports his source; he
leaves out information that indicates that Jefferson was not as involved in
the work of the school board as the title "president"
suggests. There is no good reason for Barton to omit this information
unless, of course, he wants to mislead his readers.
More info about jefferson and the Bible, religion in schools
Jefferson, Religion, and the Public Schools.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/jeffschl.htm
[excerpt]
The omission was deliberate; Jefferson wrote in his Notes on the State of
Virginia: "Instead therefore of putting the Bible and Testament into the
hands of the children, at an age when their judgments are not sufficiently
matured for religious enquiries, their memories may here be stored with the
most useful facts from Grecian, Roman, European and American history."(17)
Religion was also conspicuous by its absence from Jefferson's plan of 1817;
his Bill for Establishing a System of Public Education enumerated only
secular subjects. In an effort to eliminate possible religious influence in
the public schools, Jefferson specified that ministers should not serve as
"visitors" or supervisors, and provided that "no religious reading,
instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or practised" in violation of
the tenets of any sect or denomination.(1 Clearly, Jefferson opposed the
use of public funds for the teaching of religion in the public schools.
[end excerpt]
SEE the rest of
Jefferson, Religion, and the Public Schools.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/jeffschl.htm
*******************************************************************
FISHER AMES
Fisher Ames was lamenting the decline of the use of the
Bible in schools and this was 1801. When he wrote this:
"Should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a schoolbook?
Its morals are pure, its examples are captivating and noble .... "
Think about that, the Bible was being phased out as a school book in
Mass. a state with an established religion as early as 1801.
Jefferson designed a educational system for the lower grades that did
not include religion being taught in any form or fashion.
Fisher Ames wrote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SCHOOL BOOKS
The Palladium, JANUARY, 27, 1801
IT HAS BEEN THE CUSTOM, of late years, to put a number of little books
into the hands of children, containing fables and moral lessons. This
is very well, because it is right first to raise curiosity, and then
to guide it. Many books for children are, however, judiciously
compiled; the language is too much raised above the ideas of that
tender age; the moral is drawn from the fable, they know not why; and
when they gain wisdom from experience, they will see the restrictions
and exceptions which are necessary to the rules of conduct laid down
in their books, but which such books do not give. Some of the most
admired works of this kind abound with a frothy sort of sentiment, as
the readers of novels are pleased to call it, the chief merit of which
consists in shedding tears, and giving away money. Is it right, or
agreeable to good sense, to try to make the tender age more
tender'' Pity and generosity, though amiable impulses, are blind ones,
and as we grow older are to be managed by rules, and restrained by wisdom.
It is not clear that the heart, at thirty, is any the softer for
weeping, at ten, over one of Berquin's fables, the point of which
turns on a beggar boy's being ragged, and a rich man's son being well
clad. Some persons, indeed, appear to have shed all their tears of
sympathy before they reach the period of mature age. Most young hearts
are tender, and tender enough; the object of education is rather to
direct these emotions, however amiable, than to augment them.(2)
Why then, if these books for children must be retained, as they will
be, should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school
book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The
reverence for the sacred book that is thus early impressed lasts long;
and probably, if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of
the mind. One consideration more is important. In no book is there so
good English, so pure and so elegant; and by teaching all the same
book, they will speak alike, and the Bible will justly remain the
standard of language as well as of faith. A barbarous provincial
jargon will be banished, and taste, corrupted by pompous Johnsonian
affectation, will be restored.
FOOTNOTE
(2) Probably Amaud Berquin, (ca.) 1749-1791 . The Looking Glass for
the Mind ... Stories and Tales Chiefly translated from L'Ami des
Enfants.
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Works of Fisher Ames, by Seth Ames. Volume 1,
Edited and enlarged by W.B. Allen, Liberty Classics, (1983) pp 11-12
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The above shows an apparent decline of the use of the Bible in schools
in even in Mass.
Jefferson created the first secular University on the soil of this
nation and after his death Madison kept it that way.
***********************************************************************************
Additional 19th Century Cases
A look at additional 19th century cases that add insight and balance to the
material above including Bloom v Cornelius (Ohio Supreme Court, 1853);
Board of Education of the City of Cincinnati, plaintiff in error, v Minor
(Ohio Supreme Court, 1872)
http://candst.tripod.com/caseadd.htm
Was school prayer widespread before 1962?
http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/pray2c.htm
********************************************************
Additional information:
From: buckeye
Date: Mon, Aug 20 2001 4:34 pm
From that material: The National Reform Association and the religious
Amendments to the Constitution, 1864-1876, by Steven Keith Green, An
unpublished Masters thesis, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill,
(1987) Pages 44-47
------------------------------------------------------
In 1870, the practice of Protestant Bible reading and religious
exercises in public schools received its first serious challenge. On
November 1, 1869, the Cincinnati city school board passed two significant
resolutions. First, it prohibited the reading of all religious books,
including the Bible, and religious instruction in public schools. It also
repealed a rule that required teachers to begin each day with a reading
from the Bible and the singing of a hymn. Before the new resolutions were
put into practice, a group of evangelicals, including members of the local
N.R.A., quickly obtained an injunction from the state Superior Court
against their enforcement, The school board appealed the matter to the Ohio
Supreme Court.(87)
The Cincinnati case received national attention while awaiting appeal.
Observers touted it as a test case for similar practices in other states.
People on both sides of the Christian Amendment issue payed special
attention to the outcome of the case. The N.R.A. saw the case as further
proof of the need for the amendment. Speaking in New York in April of 1872,
David McAllister decried the tactics of the opponents of Christianity who
sought to remove the Bible from public schools. "(I)f we had in our
national Constitution that acknowledgement we had in nearly every State
constitution, it would not only sustain the decision of the Ohio (Superior
Court) judge, but would greatly strengthen the friends of our Christian
system of education. And it is the aim of the association to have that
undeniably legal basis in our Constitution, so that there will never be any
question raised about the matter, and so that when men stand up to resist
the Bible we may say, ‘No; we recognize the Christian religion as a
fundamental law of our Constitution,'"
While people awaited the outcome of the Cincinnati decision, the
tension surrounding the school issue mounted. In June 1872, the State
Superintendent of the New York public schools ordered several school boards
on Long Island to suspend the practice of daily Bible readings and
religious exercises in response to Catholic complaints. Similar moves were
underway in Michigan and other northern states. For the first time, the
average Protestant became aware of challenges to his religious way-of-life.
Finally, in December, the Ohio Supreme Court handed down its decision.
The Supreme Court reversed the injunction of the trial court, reinstated
the schools board's resolutions, and dismissed the case. The Court
acknowledged that since the Ohio Constitution recognized that "religion,
morality and knowledge are essential to good government," the state
legislature could pass laws to protect the practice of every religion. But,
said the Court, it could not agree with those who argued that "religion"
must mean Christianity or that Christianity was part of the common law of
the country. "Those who make this assertion can hardly be serious, and
intend the real import of their language. If Christianity is the law of the
State, like every other law, it must have a sanction. Adequate penalties
must be provided to enforce obedience to all its requirements and precepts.
No one seriously contends for any such doctrine in this country, or, I
might almost say, in this age of the world."
"Religion is not," continued the Court in a reference to the Christian
Amendment, much less Christianity or any other particular system of
religion - named in the preamble to the Constitution of the United States
as one of the declared objects of government; nor is it mentioned in the
clause in question, in our own Constitution, as being essential to anything
beyond mere human government. . . (U)nited with religion, government never
rises above the merest despotism; and all history shows us that the more
widely and completely they are separated, the better it is for both."
Not only was the Cincinnati decision a loss for the pro-Bible reading
faction throughout the nation, it also was a slap in the face of those who
supported the Christian Amendment.
SOURCE:
the Ohio Supreme Court had ruled in the Case of
Board of Ed of Cincinnati v Minor, et al., 23 Ohio State Rep 211 (1872),
The reference material used for that post was The Congressional Globe and
The National Reform Association and the religious Amendments to the
Constitution, 1864-1876, by Steven Keith Green, An unpublished Masters
thesis, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, (1987)
==================================================
Another source:
Ohio and Religious Liberty in the Public Schools (P. 724)
The opinion in Board of Education v. Minor was rendered by Mr.
Justice Welch. The defendants had brought their action (Minor v.
Board of Education) to the Superior Court of Cincinnati to enjoin the
board from carrying into effect two resolutions adopted by the board,
November 1, 1869, which read as follows:
“Resolved, That religious instruction, and the reading of religious
books, including the Holy Bible, are prohibited in the common schools
of Cincinnati, it being the true object and intent of this rule to allow
the children of the parents of all sects and opinions, in matters of faith
and worship, to enjoy alike the benefit of the common-school fund.
“Resolved, That so much of the regulations on the course of study
and text-books in the intermediate and district schools (page 213,
annual report) as reads as follows, ‘The opening exercises in every
department shall commence by reading a portion of the Bible by or
under the direction of the teacher, and appropriate singing by the
pupils,’ be repealed.”
Two of the judges of the superior court, Hagans and Storer, decided in
favor of religion in the public schools, and enjoined the board from
carrying the foregoing resolutions into effect. The other member of the
court, Judge Taft, dissented. The case was then carried to the State
supreme court, which reversed the decision of the lower court. Stanley
Matthews, afterward a justice of the United States Supreme Court, and
George Hoadley, subsequently governor of Ohio, were of the counsel for the
board of education, and delivered clear and effective speeches at the trial
of the case before the supreme court.
(SoURCE OF INFORMATION: American State Papers on Freedom in Religion. 4th
Revised Edition. Published in 1949 for The Religious Liberty Association,
Washington, D.C. First Edition Compiled by William Addison Blakely, of the
Chicago Bar. (1890) under the Title American State Papers Bearing on Sunday
Legislation. pp. 864-65
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, what was the ultimate outcome of the decision?
Why was it a loss for the pro-Bible reading faction throughout the nation,
it also was a slap in the face of those who supported the Christian
Amendment?
Unconstitutional? Perhaps those words were not used but the immediate
outcome was the same as if they had been used.
It was a case that was cited nationally time and time again as other state
courts began to reach the same opinions and did in fact state such
practices violated their state constitution.
If one reads the entire opinion (which I have and will be very happy to
post for you) you will see that word is all but said in those things that
were said.
I think one will find that case was a major set back, in many ways, for
those who were trying to link state and church.
I'll be sure to change any future references to Minor as meaning "you
can't do it" instead of "unconstitutional."
*American Council on Education, Committee on Religion and Public Education,
The Relation of Religion to Public Education—The Basic Principles,
Washington, D.C., 1947. CS
The importance of this study is due both to the responsible auspices under
which it was made, and the representative character of the committee under
the chairmanship of Dr. F. Ernest Johnson, Professor of Education, Teachers
College, Columbia University. The major conclusions of the committee are
that no religious indoctrination of any kind should be permitted in public
schools, nothing in the way of specific religious instruction; but that the
religious phases of culture should be objectively included, where they
naturally occur in courses dealing with history, literature, art,
sociology, etc. Without such study our civilization past and present and
human personality cannot be fully understood, and without sympathetic
treatment of religious subject matter along with other factors, the
importance of religion would seem to be disregarded by the State. Religious
instruction must be left entirely to home and church, but there is no
fundamental objection to a wisely conducted "released time" plan. This
study was published prior to the decisions of the U. S. Supreme Court in
the Everson and McCollum cases.
*****************************************************************************
Georgia Lawmakers OK Bible As Textbook In Public Schools
buckeyeelo wrote:
There is nothing innocent about this. It is merely one more attempt to
get a foot or at least a toe in the door, thus establishing precedence
for returning religion to the classrooms of public schools.
All one needs to do is go back to Everson v bd of Ed and work forward
collecting each and every strict separation ruling handed down by the
USSC. You will then have the battle plan of the theocrats.
That is theior goal, to reverse each and everyone of those pro strict
separation rulings.
They would like to do it all at once by (1) having Everson overturned
or (2) having the incorporation of the Establisment Clause against the
states ended.
Failing in that they will work by passing laws that will result in
court challenges that will ultimately have a chance of overturning
each of those previous rulings one by one if need be.
They have already been doing it. That was how they managed to
"justify" the ruling they handed down in the Cleveland voucher case.
They overturned 3 or 4 previous anti aid to religion USSC rulings,
rather recent rulings at that, in a span of like 4 years.
That was a very rare event.
***********************************************************************
PRAYER AND THE BIBLE IN SCHOOLS
http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/www7/prayer.html
School Prayers: A Common Danger
from Christians in the Public Square
by John Warwick Montgomery
http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar68.htm
Incorporating a Bible Study course into the high school curriculum
http://www.principalspartnership.com/biblestudy.pdf
Religion In The Public Schools: A Joint Statement Of Current Law
http://www.ed.gov/Speeches/04-1995/prayer.html
******************************************************************
How qualified is your typical public school teacher to use the Bible as a
textbook to teach literature, history, etc ?
The Bible is not an accurate history book.
What makes the Bible any better as a study in literature than many other
works?
The Bile is a religious book andd nothing else is going to alter or change
that.
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
**************************************************************** |
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Raymond
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Bible study in schools |
|
|
On Jun 19, 6:26�am, buckeye <buckeye...@nospam.net> wrote:
| Quote: | �Apr 9 2006, 9:57 am
Newsgroups: alt.politics.democrats.d, alt.politics.usa.constitution,
alt.education, alt.atheism, alt.religion.christian,
alt.politics.liberalism, alt.politics.usa.republican
From: buckeye-...@nospam.net
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 09:57:56 -0400
Local: Sun, Apr 9 2006 9:57 am
Subject: UPDATE: Bible study in schools
Another had once said in a post:
:|The Bible was the primary book used in schools.
In some, maybe, not in all by any stretch of the imagination.
:| Thomas Jefferson supported Bible reading in school; this is proven
:|by his service as the first president of the >:|Washington, D.C.
:|public schools, which used the Bible and Watt's Hymns as textbooks for reading.
The above is a myth by DAVID BARTON, but when corrected does give some
information about a early public school system.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------�----------------------------------http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg6.htm
Thomas Jefferson supported Bible reading in school; this is proven by his
service as the first president of the Washington D. C. public schools,
which used the Bible and Watt's Hymns as textbooks for reading.
Research by Jim Allison
On page 130 in his The Myth of Separation, David Barton makes the following
claim:
� � �Thomas Jefferson, while President of the United States, became the
first president of the Washington D. C. public school
� � �board, which used the Bible and Watt's Hymnal as reading texts in the
classroom. Notice why Jefferson felt the Bible to
� � �be essential in any successful plan of education:
� � � � � I have always said, always will say, that the studious perusal of
the sacred volume will make us better citizens.
Barton's reference for Jefferson's service on the Washington D. C. school
board is J. O. Wilson, "Eighty Years of Public
Schools of Washington," in the Records of the Columbia Historical Society,
vol. 1, 1897, pp. 122-127. Barton's quotation
from Jefferson is taken from Herbert Lockyear, The Last Words of Saints and
Sinners, 1969.
Apparently, Barton wants us to conclude that, since Jefferson was president
of the board for a school system that used the Bible
for reading instruction, he must have approved of using the Bible in this
manner. In fact, some readers of this web site have
claimed in their e-mail correspondence with us that Jefferson requested the
Bible to be used for reading instruction. But nothing
in Barton's source supports either of these claims. In fact, Barton's
source suggests that someone other than Jefferson was
responsible for introducing the Bible into the schools, and that this
policy was adopted after Jefferson had left Washington for
retirement in Virginia. Here are the facts:
On September 19, 1805, toward the end of Jefferson's first term as
President of the United States, the board of trustees of the
Washington D. C. public schools adopted its first plan for public education
for the city. Given its resemblance to a similar plan
proposed several years earlier by Jefferson for the state of Virginia,
Wilson (Barton's source) suggests that it is likely that "he
[Jefferson] himself was the chief author of the...plan." The plan called
for the establishment of two public schools in which:
� � �...poor children shall be taught reading, writing, grammar,
arithmetic, and such branches of the mathematics as may qualify
� � �them for the professions they are intended to follow, and they shall
receive such other instruction as is given to pay pupils,
� � �as the board my from time to time direct, and pay pupils shall,
besides be instructed in geography and in the Latin
� � �language.
As you can see, there is nothing in this plan that mentions religious
education or the use of the Bible in reading instruction. Nor,
we might add, was the Bible mentioned in any of Jefferson's plans for
public education in the state of Virginia, either before or
after his presidency (check out an extract from Leonard Levy's book
Jefferson and Civil Liberties: The Darker Side for
documentation on this point). There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in
Barton's source that connects Jefferson to the practice of
Bible reading. So how did the Bible come to be used in the Washington
public schools? Remarkably, Barton's own source
provides an answer to that question.
In 1812 the board of trustees established a school that used a curriculum
developed by the British educator Joseph Landcaster,
who's system of education was becoming increasingly popular in the United
States. Wilson describes Landcaster as an
"enthusiastic but somewhat visionary schoolmaster, who adopted an
inexpensive method of educating, especially the masses of
the poor. The curriculum of his schools included reading, writing,
arithmetic, and the Bible." In an 1813 report to the board of
trustees, Henry Ould, the principle of the Landcasterian school, related
the progress his students had made in reading and
spelling:
� � �55 have learned to read in the Old and New Testaments, and are all
able to spell words of three, four, and five syllables;
� � �26 are now learning to read Dr. Watts' Hymns and spell words of two
syllables; 10 are learning words of four and five
� � �letters. Of 509 out of the whole number admitted that did not know a
single letter, 20 can now read the Bible and spell
� � �words of three, four, and five syllables, 29 read Dr. Watts' Hymns and
spell words of two syllables, and 10 words of four
� � �and five letters.
In other words, the first mention of the use of the Bible and a Christian
hymnal in the Washington public schools is in connection
with a curriculum adopted in 1812, three years after Jefferson has left
Washington and the school board for retirement in
Virginia. Contrary to Barton's implied claim, Jefferson was not president
of the school board when the Bible was being used
for instruction. Barton simply omits information he doesn't want his
readers to know, and so allows them to draw an conclusion
that his own source refutes. Barton, we conclude, is either sloppy or
dishonest in his use of evidence. Either alternative should
cause the reader to question the soundness of Barton's scholarship.
So what about Barton's quote from Herbert Lockyear's The Last Words of
Saints and Sinners? We tracked down the book
and discovered that it had no footnotes that direct the reader back to
either Jefferson's own writings, or to secondary accounts
of Jefferson's life; the quote, in other words, is untraceable. Moreover,
we've never seen this quote referenced in any scholarly
work on Jefferson's attitude toward religion, or in any account of
Jefferson's death (the context of Lockyear's book). If Jefferson
uttered these words, it has apparently escaped the notice of most
historians.
We have simply never encountered a legitimate scholar that reports an
unfootnoted quotation from a secondary source writing
some 140 years after the fact as the truth, especially when that quotation
seems not to be known to other scholars. If Barton
wants us to accept this quote as authentic, he should be able to indicate
to where it can be found in Jefferson's works, or else
point us to a secondary source that provides the relevant documentation.
Barton does neither. It's hard to resist the conclusion
that this quote was fabricated by Lockyear, and that Barton reports it
knowing full well that there are questions as to its
authenticity. [Newsflash: Barton now admits this quotation is fabricated!
Check here for details.]
Finally, we draw your attention to a last, nagging inaccuracy in Barton's
passage. While it's true that Jefferson was elected
president of the Washington public school board in 1805, Wilson (Barton's
source) goes on to note that Jefferson was
"prevented from ever discharging its duties by others of paramount
concern." Once again, Barton misreports his source; he
leaves out information that indicates that Jefferson was not as involved in
the work of the school board as the title "president"
suggests. There is no good reason for Barton to omit this information
unless, of course, he wants to mislead his readers.
More info about jefferson and the Bible, religion in schools
�Jefferson, Religion, and the Public Schools.
�http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/jeffschl.htm
[excerpt]
�The omission was deliberate; Jefferson wrote in his Notes on the State of
Virginia: "Instead therefore of putting the Bible and Testament into the
hands of the children, at an age when their judgments are not sufficiently
matured for religious enquiries, their memories may here be stored with the
most useful facts from Grecian, Roman, European and American history."(17)
Religion was also conspicuous by its absence from Jefferson's plan of 1817;
his Bill for Establishing a System of Public Education enumerated only
secular subjects. In an effort to eliminate possible religious influence in
the public schools, Jefferson specified that ministers should not serve as
"visitors" or supervisors, and provided that "no religious reading,
instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or practised" in violation of
the tenets of any sect or denomination.(1 Clearly, Jefferson opposed the
use of public funds for the teaching of religion in the public schools.
[end excerpt]
SEE the rest of
�Jefferson, Religion, and the Public Schools.
�http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/jeffschl.htm
*******************************************************************
FISHER AMES
Fisher Ames was lamenting the decline of the use of the
Bible in schools and this was 1801. When he wrote this:
"Should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a schoolbook?
Its morals are pure, its examples are captivating and noble .... "
Think about that, the Bible was being phased out as a school book in
Mass. a state with an established religion as early as 1801.
Jefferson designed a educational system for the lower grades that did
not include religion being taught in any form or fashion.
|
Shalom aleikhem;
Apparently Jefferson had read the Bible himself enough to know that
children in the lower grades should not be exposed to the filth and
fantasy of this awful book. It surely would have frightened them to
death and caused problems trying to concentrate on the important
subjects such as math and science. Besides, it would not have taken
the children long to figure out that G-d was a Jewish politician that
expected the Jews to run roughshod over the rest of the world, an idea
still believed by most Jews,
L.Shalom
Can you visualize young children reading the following
Bible Atrocities
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html
NOTE: These lists are meant to identify possible problems in the
Bible, especially problems which are inherent in a literalist or
fundamentalist interpretation. Some of the selections may be
resolvable on certain interpretations--after all, almost any problem
can be eliminated with suitable rationalizations--but it is the
reader's obligation to test this possibility and to decide whether it
really makes appropriate sense to do this. To help readers in this
task, these lists are aimed at presenting examples where problems may
exist given certain allowable (but not always obligatory) assumptions.
It should be kept in mind that a perfect and omnipotent God could,
should, and likely would see to it that such problems did not exist in
a book which s/he had inspired. It should also be kept in mind that
what is and is not an atrocity is to some extent a matter of opinion.
You are entitled to disagree with the author that these are, in fact,
atrocities.
Note: In the Bible, words having to do with killing significantly
outnumber words having to do with love.
GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent
(the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree
of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves
and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining
eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal
Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge
of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented
the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of
Jesus, etc.)
GE 4:2-8 God's arbitrary preference of Abel's offering to that of
Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder
and kill his brother Abel.
GE 34:13-29 The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of
their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and
children.
GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and
decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the
face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself
the greatest mass murderer in history.
GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a
pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the
destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).
GE 38:9 "... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his
semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother.
What he did was wicked ..., so the Lord put him to death."
EX 2:12 Moses murders an Egyptian.
EX 7:1, 14, 9:14-16, 10:1-2, 11:7 The purpose of the devastation that
God brings to the Egyptians is as follows:
to show that he is Lord;
to show that there is none like him in all the earth;
to show his great power;
to cause his name to be declared throughout the earth;
to give the Israelites something to talk about with their children;
to show that he makes a distinction between Israel and Egypt.
EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in
the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the
Israelites reside.
EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.
EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his
people.
EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death
with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't
die too quickly.
EX 32:27 "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from
gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and
every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.
EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.
LE 26:7-8 The Lord promises the Israelites that, if they are obedient,
their enemies will "fall before your sword."
LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you
of your children."
LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will
cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and
fathers and friends.
LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG
11:30-39)
NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.
NU 12:1-10 God makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and
Aaron had spoken against Moses.
NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is
stoned to death at the Lord's command.
NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men
and their households (including wives and children) because the men
had been rebellious.
NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.
NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.
NU 21:3 The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.
NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.
NU 21:35 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay Og "... and his
sons and all his people, until there was not one survivor left ...."
NU 25:4 (KJV) "And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the
people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."
NU 25:8 "He went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust
both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her
belly."
NU 25:9 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.
NU 31:9 The Israelites capture Midianite women and children.
NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites
to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has
known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had
known men? One can only speculate.)
NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty.
Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the
Lord.
DT 2:33-34 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children
of Sihon.
DT 3:6 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of
Og.
DT 7:2 The Lord commands the Israelites to "utterly destroy" and shown
"no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.
DT 20:13-14 "When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the
sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock
and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for
yourselves."
DT 20:16 "In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an
inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."
DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to
take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives.
If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife,
he can simply let her go.
DT 28:53 "You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons
and daughters the Lord your God has given you."
JS 1:1-9, 18 Joshua receives the Lord's blessing for all the bloody
endeavors to follow.
JS 6:21-27 With the Lord's approval, Joshua destroys the city of
Jericho men, women, and children with the edge of the sword.
JS 7:19-26 Achan, his children and his cattle are stoned to death
because Achan had taken a taboo thing.
JS 8:22-25 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly smites the people
of Ai, killing 12,000 men and women, so that there were none who
escaped.
JS 10:10-27 With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the
Gibeonites.
JS 10:28 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people
of Makkedah.
JS 10:30 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the
Libnahites.
JS 10:32-33 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the
people of Lachish.
JS 10:34-35 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the
Eglonites.
JS 10:36-37 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the
Hebronites.
JS 10:38-39 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the
Debirites.
JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole
land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as
the Lord God of Israel commanded."
JS 11:6 The Lord orders horses to be hamstrung. (Exceedingly cruel.)
JS 11:8-15 "And the lord gave them into the hand of Israel, ...utterly
destroying them; there was none left that breathed ...."
JS 11:20 "For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they
should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be
utterly destroyed, and should receive no mercy but be exterminated, as
the Lord commanded Moses."
JS 11:21-23 Joshua utterly destroys the Anakim.
JG 1:4 With the Lord's support, Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at
Bezek.
JG 1:6 With the Lord's approval, Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches
him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.
JG 1:8 With the Lord's approval, Judah smites Jerusalem.
JG 1:17 With the Lord's approval, Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the
Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.
JG 3:29 The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites.
JG 3:31 (A restatement.) Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an
oxgoad.
JG 4:21 Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of
Sisera, fastening it to the ground.
JG 7:19-25 The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut
off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon.
JG 8:15-21 The Gideons slaughter the men of Penuel.
JG 9:5 Abimalech murders his brothers.
JG 9:45 Abimalech and his men kill all the people in the city.
JG 9:53-54 "A woman dropped a stone on his head and cracked his skull.
Hurriedly he called to his armor-bearer, 'Draw your sword and kill me,
so that they can't say a woman killed me.' So his servant ran him
through, and he died."
JG 11:29-39 Jepthah sacrifices his beloved daughter, his only child,
according to a vow he has made with the Lord.
JG 14:19 The Spirit of the Lord comes upon a man and causes him to
slay thirty men.
JG 15:15 Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.
JG 16:21 The Philistines gouge out Samson's eyes.
JG 16:27-30 Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars
of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000
other men and women.
JG 18:27 The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish.
JG 19:22-29 A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old
man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest.
Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's
concubine (or wife): "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his
concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them
what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a
thing." The man's concubine is ravished and dies. The man then cuts
her body into twelve pieces and sends one piece to each of the twelve
tribes of Israel.
JG 20:43-48 The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst
the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set
their towns on fire.
JG 21:10-12 "... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with
the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every
male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly
destroy." They do so and find four hundred young virgins whom they
bring back for their own use.
1SA 4:10 The Philistines slay 30,000 Israelite foot soldiers.
1SA 5:6-9 The Lord afflicts the Philistines with tumors in their
"secret parts," presumably for having stolen the Ark.
1SA 6:19 God kills seventy men (or so) for looking into the Ark (at
him?). (Note: The early Israelites apparently thought the Ark to be
God's abode.)
1SA 7:7-11 Samuel and his men smite the Philistines.
1SA 11:11 With the Lord's blessing, Saul and his men cut down the
Ammonites.
1SA 14:31 Jonathan and his men strike down the Philistines.
1SA 14:48 Saul smites the Amalekites.
1SA 15:3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek,
and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill
both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and
ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge
of the sword."
1SA 15:33 "Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord ...."
1SA 18:7 The women sing as they make merry: "Saul has slain his
thousands and David his ten thousands."
1SA 18:27 David murders 200 Philistines, then cuts off their
foreskins.
1SA 30:17 David smites the Amalekites.
2SA 2:23 Abner kills Asahel.
2SA 3:30 Joab and Abishai kill Abner.
2SA 4:7-8 Rechan and Baanah kill Ish-bosheth, behead him, and take his
head to David.
2SA 4:12 David has Rechan and Baanah killed, their hands and feet cut
off, and their bodies hanged by the pool at Hebron.
2SA 5:25 "And David did as the Lord commanded him, and smote the
Philistines ...."
2SA 6:2-23 Because she rebuked him for having exposed himself, Michal
(David's wife) was barren throughout her life.
2SA 8:1-18 (A listing of some of David's murderous conquests.)
2SA 8:4 David hamstrung all but a few of the horses.
2SA 8:5 David slew 22,000 Syrians.
2SA 8:6, 14 "The Lord gave victory to David wherever he went."
2SA 8:13 David slew 18,000 Edomites in the valley of salt and made the
rest slaves.
2SA 10:18 David slew 47,000+ Syrians.
2SA 11:14-27 David has Uriah killed so that he can marry Uriah's wife,
Bathsheba.
2SA 12:1, 19 The Lord strikes David's child dead for the sin that
David has committed.
2SA 13:1-15 Amnon loves his sister Tamar, rapes her, then hates her.
2SA 13:28-29 Absalom has Amnon murdered.
2SA 18:6 -7 20,000 men are slaughtered at the battle in the forest of
Ephraim.
2SA 18:15 Joab's men murder Absalom.
2SA 20:10-12 Joab's men murder Amasa and leave him "... wallowing in
his own blood in the highway. And anyone who came by, seeing him,
stopped."
2SA 24:15 The Lord sends a pestilence on Israel that kills 70,000 men.
1KI 2:24-25 Solomon has Adonijah murdered.
1KI 2:29-34 Solomon has Joab murdered.
1KI 2:46 Solomon has Shime-i murdered.
1KI 13:15-24 A man is killed by a lion for eating bread and drinking
water in a place where the Lord had previously told him not to. This
is in spite of the fact that the man had subsequently been lied to by
a prophet who told the man that an angel of the Lord said that it
would be alright to eat and drink there.
1KI 20:29-30 The Israelites smite 100,000 Syrian soldiers in one day.
A wall falls on 27,000 remaining Syrians.
2KI 1:10-12 Fire from heaven comes down and consumes fifty men.
2KI 2:23-24 Forty-two children are mauled and killed, presumably
according to the will of God, for having jeered at a man of God.
2KI 5:27 Elisha curses Gehazi and his descendants forever with
leprosy.
2KI 6:18-19 The Lord answers Elisha's prayer and strikes the Syrians
with blindness. Elisha tricks the blind Syrians and leads them to
Samaria.
2KI 6:29 "So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her,
'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him."
2KI 9:24 Jehu tricks and murders Joram.
2KI 9:27 Jehu has Ahaziah killed.
2KI 9:30-37 Jehu has Jezebel killed. Her body is trampled by horses.
Dogs eat her flesh so that only her skull, feet, and the palms of her
hands remain.
2KI 10:7 Jehu has Ahab's seventy sons beheaded, then sends the heads
to their father.
2KI 10:14 Jehu has forty-two of Ahab's kin killed.
2KI 10:17 "And when he came to Samaria, he slew all that remained to
Ahab in Samaria, till he had wiped them out, according to the word of
the Lord ...."
2KI 10:19-27 Jehu uses trickery to massacre the Baal worshippers.
2KI 11:1 Athaliah destroys all the royal family.
2KI 14:5, 7 Amaziah kills his servants and then 10,000 Edomites.
2KI 15:3-5 Even though he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord,
the Lord smites Azariah with leprosy for not having removed the "high
places."
2KI 15:16 Menahem ripped open all the women who were pregnant.
2KI 19:35 An angel of the Lord kills 185,000 men.
1CH 20:3 (KJV) "And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut
them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes."
2CH 13:17 500,000 Israelites are slaughtered.
2CH 21:4 Jehoram slays all his brothers.
PS 137:9 Happy will be the man who dashes your little ones against the
stones.
PS 144:1 God is praised as the one who trains hands for war and
fingers for battle.
IS 13:15 "Everyone who is captured will be thrust through; all who are
caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces
before their eyes; their ... wives will be ravished."
IS 13:18 "Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they
shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare
children."
IS 14:21-22 "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of
their fathers."
IS 49:26 The Lord will cause the oppressors of the Israelite's to eat
their own flesh and to become drunk on their own blood as with wine.
JE 16:4 "They shall die grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented;
neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face
of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine;
and their carcasses shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the
beasts of the earth."
LA 4:9-10 "Those slain by the sword are better off than those who die
of famine; racked with hunger, they waste away for lack of food. ...
pitiful women have cooked their own children, who became their
food ..."
EZ 6:12-13 The Lord says: "... they will fall by the sword, famine and
plague. He that is far away will die of the plague, and he that is
near will fall by the sword, and he that survives and is spared will
die of famine. So will I spend my wrath upon them. And they will know
I am the Lord, when the people lie slain among their idols around
their altars, on every high hill and on all the mountaintops, under
every spreading tree and every leafy oak ...."
EZ 9:4-6 The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and
maidens, little children and women ...."
EZ 20:26 In order that he might horrify them, the Lord allowed the
Israelites to defile themselves through, amongst other things, the
sacrifice of their first-born children.
EZ 21:3-4 The Lord says that he will cut off both the righteous and
the wicked that his sword shall go against all flesh.
EZ 23:25, 47 God is going to slay the sons and daughters of those who
were whores.
EZ 23:34 "You shall ... pluck out your hair, and tear your breasts."
HO 13:16 "They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed
in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."
MI 3:2-3 "... who pluck off their skin ..., and their flesh from off
their bones; Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin
from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as
for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron."
MT 3:12, 8:12, 10:21, 13:30, 42, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30, LK 13:28, JN
5:24 Some will spend eternity burning in Hell. There will be weeping,
wailing and gnashing of teeth.
MT 10:21 "... the brother shall deliver up his brother to death, and
the father his child, ... children shall rise up against their
parents, and cause them to be put to death."
MT 10:35-36 "For I have come to turn a man against his father, a
daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-
law a man's enemies will be the members of his own family."
MT 11:21-24 Jesus curses [the inhabitants of] three cities who were
not sufficiently impressed with his great works.
AC 13:11 Paul purposefully blinds a man (though not permanently).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Links to other articles in this series:
Key to Abbreviations
Introduction to the Bible and Biblical Problems
Fatal Bible Flaws?
Bible Absurdities
Bible Inconsistencies: Bible Contradictions?
Bible Precepts: Questionable Guidelines
Bible Vulgarities
Todah Rabah -- thank you.
Shavuah Tov -- [have a] good week.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> read more � |
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ZerkonX
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Bible study in schools |
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On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 06:26:56 -0400, buckeye wrote:
| Quote: | Thomas Jefferson...
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was secondarily a politician, primarily a political philosopher and a
American political philosopher at that.
What Jefferson did or, on this case, HAD to do, is not the central nor
lasting point in Jefferson's life. His idealism, his notions about
government, his civic value standards are the gifts to us, even if he
violated them himself. No idealist in history has ever been able to live
up to their own standards. Ideals are impossible to realize fully, this
is why they are so excellent and timeless as guides for behavior. It is
part of the universal human struggle.
Jefferson did not do all this religious stuff in a political or pragmatic
vacuum. The election of 1800 was considered by people then as a second
American Revolution. Reasons for this anyone can look up but the
important issue here is Jefferson has been roundly attacked for being
'godless', which he most certainly was not but neither was he a bible-
centric dogmatic. Another thing: Q: What book was most readily available
(i.e. FREE) in most households, in 1800, and which children had easy
access?
If laws are to be passed on Jefferson's bible practices then there needs
to be a day when all the faithful take a scissors to the book and start
the celebration by first cutting out the entire old testament and
throwing it in the trash heap then do likewise to most of the new
testament. This is what Jefferson did after all. Wonder how this law
would fly in the halls of Hypocrisy and Stupidity or, in short, Congress? |
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