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Larry Hewitt
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 Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:25 am Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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<malcolmkirkpatrick@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0c008c40-a9f9-4f0f-b840-e17f41ba2cc7@p25g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 30, 12:52 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
| Quote: | malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d472b3f6-ac38-4e1d-9cd8-f4e3da01f369@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 30, 1:21 am, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e280bce4-b434-4660-b2ff-53f63e3aae97@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 29, 8:56 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Discussion deleted.
I have a BA in Math and a PD (5th year certificate)
in Secondary Math Education. I've see the Education curriculum.
I have an MM ( A MS without the thesis) in math and am a certified
teacher.
My point was, I've seen the Education curriculum.
-You've seen one or two, at most.
And read about more. Ever heard of the Holmes Group? They advocated |
abolishing the undergraduate Education degree. Seen the recent
criticism of Colleges of Education from (I believe it was) a former
Dean of Columbia Teachers College? Education "theory" is a playpen
for nitwit pseudo-intellectuals. Their only real purpose is to create
the illusion of specialized expertise, so as to justify control of the
educcation industry by specialists.
| Quote: |
If you really have most of the coursework for a Math MA or MS you have a
brain. Use it.
- I have all of the course work.. Your inability to read and comprehend my
entire sentence is telling.
That's sort of how I felt. I wasn't bragging, just observing that I'd |
seen the Education curriculum and had seen another course to which I
could compare the Education curriculum.
| Quote: |
If a disagreement over policy reflects a difference of values, a State-
monopoly school system myst create unhappy losers, where a
competitive market in education services allows parents to select the
curriculum they prefer.
--- But, as I note later, 40% of hte parents in my state do not have HS
degree. And about an equal numbrer have no college experience. How do you
expect them to make a reasoned decision?
The problem is even larger with political control of school. How can |
they vote intelligently for Education policy?
--
Good question.
How can parents who did not graduate from HS, who have no ability to
function at more than a minimal level in math, reading, etc, who grew up in
a era where children left school early to go to work in textile mills that
are no longer in this country amke an informed decision on a curriculum
best suited to make their children excell in a society they do not
understand?
How can parents who have never used a computer, who view the internet as a
means for predators to get to their children, determine what level of
technology education are needed.
How can parents who have no idea what future job markets will look like set
up a curriculum for their children that will prepare them for that future.
On a moral plane, should we let parents lacking knowledge, or maybe even
acting on their own biases and beliefs, severley limit their child's future
potential by preventing them from taking courses that will prepare them for
college and technology. Is that not a form of child abuse?
And should society allow this when their decision may result in a child ---
especially girls who's parents, as I noted, believe that 14 yrs old is time
to start looking for a husband, stand a large probability of ending up on
welfare adn we have to pay thier way (my state is one of hte leaders in the
nation in welfare mothers).
Call me elitist if you want, but my lifetime experience talking with
hundreds of parents --- friends, family, and parents of students --- makes
me velieve they have no idea what is truly a good education. Most are
content to let the "government" determine that. The rest have options ---
home schooling, private school, charter schools, magnet schools. And by far
most of these don't bother to do more than bitch.
Larry
What parents have is
superior local knowledge of their own children's interests and
abilities. We don't need to know much about mechanical engineering to
determine which car to buy. The market sorts things out better than
any political process.
| Quote: |
If a dispute over policy reflects a difference
over a mater of fact, where "What works?" is an empirical question, a
competitive market in education services or numerous small school
districts will provide more information than will a single State-wide
school district. A State-monopoly school system is like an experiment
with one treatment and no controls, a retarded wxperimental
design.
Wring. Facts are not necessary.
A lot of parents in my regoin send their kids to religious schools or home
school not based on facts and a rational decision but on emotion --- fear,
religious bias, even some parents who do not think that a girl needs more
than an 8th grade education before marrying (I've tutored them).
Maybe they're right. Maybe their children will be better off in a |
homeschool environment or in a parochial school than in one of the NEA/
AFT/AFSCME cartel's schools.
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted ( Colleges of Education and Education fads).
Another thing they do is weed out students wwho want to "mother" children,
not teach. They aslo insist on competency in core subjects and specialized
areas.
Education majors rank among the bottom of entering college students, |
as measured by standatdized tests for college admission. Education
majors rank among the lowest applicants for graduate school, based on
GRE, LSAT, GMAT. The UH College of Education graduates Elem Ed majors
who cannot add fractions.
| Quote: |
In my experience the problems you mentioned above don't come from
teaching colleges but from researchers...
False dichotomy. Those "researchers" are College of Ed faculty or
Regional Education Lab Ed.Ds who didn't get a tenure-track academic
position.
Real dichotomy. At my alma mater, for ex, the researchers did not trach
teachers, but they taught other candidates for research degree. They
woulld'nt deign to talk to underlassmen or masters candidate teachers, but
only grad schoolers seeking research degrees. And certification curriculum
did not teach some of hteir "theories", but only those subjects approved
by
the state and local school boards.
Your college hired professors who did no research? That's unusual. The |
research is bogus, but they bill the taxpayers for it. That's how they
justify taking $80,000 per year for 6 hours per week and 32 weeks a
year of face-time with students.
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
Coward.
Please try be civil.
From the idiot legislature we get standardized testing,...
What's your objection to standardized tests? Define "standard".
Tests given to all students used to rate an education
I mean generally. What's a "standard" and "and a "standardized |
test"?. You claimed to be a Math major. This shouldn't be too hard.
| Quote: |
Around here it was the PACT test, recently replaced because even our idiot
right wing legislature conceded ti showed nothing. But for a dozen years
cash strapped districts were forced to spend hundreds of thousands of
dollars of test prep books and teachers spent a hundred hours or more of
classroom time on the work books instead of curriculum.
What "force"? You describe a total waste of money. Commercial |
publishers will supply and grade standardized tests of Readng
vocabulary, Reading comprehension, and Math for about $20 per
pupil.
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
My legislature now forbids local districts from using property taxes for
school funding, instead replacing ot with an increase in the sales tax.
The
intent was to eliminate the need, forced by a state supreme court
decision,
to use scarce state general funds to make up funding shortages in poor
districts. The decision put a minimum expeniture per chidl, and districts
unable to meet that through local funds were to be supplemented with state
funds. Unfortunaetly, the tax swap was not even and richer districts, like
mine, now export tax money to poorer districts while local spending goes
down.
Any tax subsidy scheme will have problems. Either districts will |
receive vastly different per pupil budgets ( if they receive
significant revenues from local sources), or wealthy districts will
subsidize poor districts (if the State imposes a uniform education-
dedicated revenue streal).
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
Dilapidated buildings and obsolete
textbooks are not due to insufficient taxpayer generosity; the
bureaucrats steal taxpayer money and poor kids' life chances. .
In South Carolina they are. Here every doallr spent is a line item on a
tax
bill.
A distric int he Greenville area refused to pass a bond issue ( a common
problem here) to repace a delapidated HS building where a roof collapsed 3
motnhs later. The school taught in shifts in the remaining part of the
building for he rest of hte year.. They still havenl't figured out what to
do in September.
That doesn't establish that taxpayers were insufficiently generous. |
According to NCES
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d06/tables/dt06_168.asp
in 2004 North Carolina spent $7,177 per pupil to operate its schools
and $1,193 on capital improvements. Suppose the average classroom
teacher has 20 students. You think you need $167,400 to cover your
salary, a space, books, utilities, lunch, and a gym membership for
each kid? .
| Quote: |
In the current system, real classroom teachers carry a swarm of out-of- |
classroom parasites on their backs.
| Quote: |
Our rightard legislature keeps cutting taxes forthe rich so it is
chronically short of moeny. WE passed an "education" lottery a feew years
ago to help fund schools. Our wonderful legisalture now uses income from
the
lottery to replace general funds for educaiotn, alowing another tax cut
for
hte rich. School funding has actually fallen, in real dollars, despite
gorign enrollment.
Look at the budget. Many other countries do a better job with less |
money.
| Quote: |
A bond issue here for new texts was shot down. Most students are not
allowed
to take books home anymore.
And it aint; just here. Accross the border iN Charlotte, NC, taxpayers
have
shot down the last two bond issues for schools, and now more than 15% of
students go to school in trailers.
The bonds were also to pay for taxts there, too. Soem schools use books
more
than 5 years old.
Many teachers in the region now photocopy tects becaue rapidly rising
enrollment has created shortages. On their own dime.
These problems are not due to insufficient taxpayer generosity. There |
is no amount of money so great that the parasites cannot waste it.
You're making my case.
| Quote: |
Legislatures hamstring teachers disciplining kids to the point that one
of
my 8th grade girls kicked a team member in the balls and all we could do
was send her to another school for 30 days to "cool off".
Ths is a consequence of the policy I criticize.
Bullhockey.
It is a direct result of NCLB, where schools are punished if attendance
falls below a certain level, for any reason REAL suspension counts against
attendance and could put a school in "failing" status.
You describe an inevitable consequence of compulsory attendance, |
exacerbated by the State-monopoly structure of the US Education
industry. Einstein opposed compulsory attendance at school. Gandhi
opposed compulsory attendance at school.
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
The State cannot subsidize education without a definition of
"education", but
then students, parents, and real classroom teachers are bound by the
State's definition.
Again, do you want an 8th grade dropout farmer or laborer or mill worker
to
define education? We have hundreds of thousands of them
I don't see that organized violence (the State) adds anything to |
education system performance. Benjamin Franklin attended school for
two years. Hiram Maxim left school at 13 and apprenticed. Thomas
Edison was homeschooled and started work at 13. Richard Arkwright was
homeschooled. James Hargreaves had no more than an elementary school
education. Cyrus McCormick was homeschooled.
| Quote: |
Are you seriously suggesting that an 8th grader should define his/her
"education?
I wrote before, that's not my recommendation. I recommend Parent |
Performance Contracting
http://harriettubmanagenda.blogspot.com/2005/12/proposal.html
| Quote: |
I had 13 yr olds planning on dropping out on their 14th birthday (with
parental consent).
|
Edison did. Hiram Maxim did. Ben Franklin did, David Farragut joined
the Navy at 9, went to sea at 11, and commanded his first ship at 15.
Please read this article on artificially extended adolescence by Ted
Kolderie. http://www.educationevolving.org/pdf/Adolescence.pdf
| Quote: |
Uniform curricula and methods of instruction guarantee a poor fit
between
schools and many students.
But a cetain minimum standard education is required to function in this
society. That is why electives are available in well-funded high schools.
The State-monopoly system doesn't deliver this minimum.
Compulsory attendance means little unless some school is compelled to
accept students rejected everywhere else.
Some districts sanely accomplish this, using special schools for
discipline
problems ro special education students.
It is only when cheapskate taxpayers, like mine, refuse to fund these
schools that they must be "mainstremed"
We are, after all, ruled by a constitution that demands equal treatment.
Make up your mind!!! You were just complaining about a South Carolina |
Supreme Court ruling which invalidated school funding through local
property taxes for exactly this reason.
| Quote: |
Call these default option schools "the public schools". Nothing is gained
by
restricting parents' options for the use of the taxpayers K-12 education
subsidy
to these schools.
Why do you insist n using loaded words? Public education is not
"subsidized",
it is funded.
It's a subsidy by ordinary dictionary definition.
Discussion deleted...
Parents could give a shit about their kids education, to the point that
40% of 8th graders in my state do not graduate. They think that homework
is > > an unnecessary intrusion on play time or a child's employment and
refuse to
make them do assignments, adn that first period is a chance for their
kid
to make up
I agree with parents about homework. 6 hours in school for 180 days |
per year is enough. It does not take 12 years to teach a normal child
to read and compute. Most vocational training occurs more effectively
on the job.
| Quote: |
Political control of school exacerbates the problem of parent |
uninvolvement. Political control of school also ties the fortunes of
parents who do care to those who do not. Political control of
education policy turns insignificant differences over matters of fact,
over values, and over taste, which competetive markets in education
services would resolve without conflict (you eat what you want and
I'll eat what I want. You wear size 10 B shoes and I'll wear size 9D
shoes. Why do we all have to wear the same size shoes?) into high-
stakes, winner-take-all contests which must create unhappy losers.
| Quote: |
Please read this one page Marvin Minsky comment on school. |
http://www.rru.com/~meo/hs.minski.html
Please read E.G. West, "Education Vouchers in Principle and Practice:
A Survey", The World Bank Research Observer.
http://www.worldbank.org/research/journals/wbro/obsfeb97/educate.htm |
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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On Jun 30, 9:25 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
| Quote: | malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Discussion deleted.
If a disagreement over policy reflects a difference of values, a State-
monopoly school system myst create unhappy losers, where a
competitive market in education services allows parents to select the
curriculum they prefer.
--- But, as I note later, 40% of hte parents in my state do not have HS
degree. And about an equal numbrer have no college experience. How do you
expect them to make a reasoned decision?
The problem is even larger with political control of school. How can they vote intelligently for Education policy?
Good question.
How can parents who did not graduate from HS, who have no ability to function at more than a minimal level in math, > reading, etc, who grew up in a era where children left school early to go to work in textile mills that are no longer in
this country amke an informed decision on a curriculum best suited to make their children excell in a society they
do not understand?
How can parents who have never used a computer, who view the internet as a means for predators to get to their
children, determine what level of technology education are needed. How can parents who have no idea what future job > markets will look like set up a curriculum for their children that will prepare them for that future.
On a moral plane, should we let parents lacking knowledge, or maybe even acting on their own biases and beliefs,
severley limit their child's future potential by preventing them from taking courses that will prepare them for
college and technology. Is that not a form of child abuse?
And should society allow this when their decision may result in a child ---
especially girls who's parents, as I noted, believe that 14 yrs old is time
to start looking for a husband, stand a large probability of ending up on
welfare adn we have to pay thier way (my state is one of hte leaders in the
nation in welfare mothers).
Call me elitist if you want, but my lifetime experience talking with
hundreds of parents --- friends, family, and parents of students --- makes
me velieve they have no idea what is truly a good education. Most are
content to let the "government" determine that. The rest have options ---
home schooling, private school, charter schools, magnet schools. And by far
most of these don't bother to do more than bitch.
Either (a) parents make education decisions individually or (b) they |
(as voters) make these decisions collectively (in a democracy) or (c)
some undemocratic process makes the determination. I rank these
choices 1(a)-2(b)-3(c). "c" relies on the intelligence and altruism of
bureaucrats, which strikes me as highly unlikely.
| Quote: |
Please read this one page Marvin Minsky comment on school.http:// |
www.rru.com/~meo/hs.minski.html
Please read E.G. West, "Education Vouchers in Principle and Practice:
A Survey", The World Bank Research Observer.http://www.worldbank.org/
research/journals/wbro/obsfeb97/educate.htm |
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Larry Hewitt
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:14 am Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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<malcolmkirkpatrick@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9e1fc31e-f3e6-4db8-bfae-09625e2180eb@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 30, 9:25 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
| Quote: | malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Discussion deleted.
If a disagreement over policy reflects a difference of values, a
State-
monopoly school system myst create unhappy losers, where a
competitive market in education services allows parents to select the
curriculum they prefer.
--- But, as I note later, 40% of hte parents in my state do not have HS
degree. And about an equal numbrer have no college experience. How do
you
expect them to make a reasoned decision?
The problem is even larger with political control of school. How can they
vote intelligently for Education policy?
Good question.
How can parents who did not graduate from HS, who have no ability to
function at more than a minimal level in math, > reading, etc, who grew up
in a era where children left school early to go to work in textile mills
that are no longer in
this country amke an informed decision on a curriculum best suited to make
their children excell in a society they
do not understand?
How can parents who have never used a computer, who view the internet as a
means for predators to get to their
children, determine what level of technology education are needed. How can
parents who have no idea what future job > markets will look like set up a
curriculum for their children that will prepare them for that future.
On a moral plane, should we let parents lacking knowledge, or maybe even
acting on their own biases and beliefs,
severley limit their child's future potential by preventing them from
taking courses that will prepare them for
college and technology. Is that not a form of child abuse?
And should society allow this when their decision may result in a
child ---
especially girls who's parents, as I noted, believe that 14 yrs old is
time
to start looking for a husband, stand a large probability of ending up on
welfare adn we have to pay thier way (my state is one of hte leaders in
the
nation in welfare mothers).
Call me elitist if you want, but my lifetime experience talking with
hundreds of parents --- friends, family, and parents of students --- makes
me velieve they have no idea what is truly a good education. Most are
content to let the "government" determine that. The rest have options ---
home schooling, private school, charter schools, magnet schools. And by
far
most of these don't bother to do more than bitch.
Either (a) parents make education decisions individually or (b) they |
(as voters) make these decisions collectively (in a democracy) or (c)
some undemocratic process makes the determination. I rank these
choices 1(a)-2(b)-3(c). "c" relies on the intelligence and altruism of
bureaucrats, which strikes me as highly unlikely.
A very few choosae (a), often tot he detriment oof hteir child.
The rest choose (b). Even choosing not to vote for schol board or other
officials is a choice.
(c) doesn;t happen .I have --- rarely ----seen parents rise up and overturn
a school board that acts in a manner they do not approve of. When it doen;t
happen it is tzcit approval.
Larry
Please read this one page Marvin Minsky comment on school.http://
www.rru.com/~meo/hs.minski.html
Please read E.G. West, "Education Vouchers in Principle and Practice:
A Survey", The World Bank Research Observer.http://www.worldbank.org/
research/journals/wbro/obsfeb97/educate.htm |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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On Jun 23, 4:36 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "Bob LeChevalier" <loj...@lojban.org> wrote in message
...when there is no standard curriculum, there can be no placement
exam. If one school district covers world history until 1300 in 9 the
grade and modern history in 10th grade, while another covers until
1500 in 9th grade and then modern history in 10th grade, and another
has world geography and cultures in 9th grade and then covers all of
world history in 10th grade presuming the prerequisite knowledge of
the cultures, then there is no "placement exam" that will work,
because there is no placement that will not involve either redundancy
or gaps.
And there is even the problem of the order within a grade that subjects are
taught.
Even with the same curricula different districts may teach out of order to
accomadte special projects, special events, or to add to the curiculum. So
a student transferring mid-year may be at a disadvantage in a new class.
That happens all the time here in South Carolina, even when every school in
the state must use the same curricula.
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This is a "problem" only to obsessive-compulsive control freaks. |
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Larry Hewitt
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:04 am Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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<malcolmkirkpatrick@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5452e3c0-fb08-4c5d-8df9-6e88dfa3b317@a9g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 23, 4:36 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "Bob LeChevalier" <loj...@lojban.org> wrote in message
...when there is no standard curriculum, there can be no placement
exam. If one school district covers world history until 1300 in 9 the
grade and modern history in 10th grade, while another covers until
1500 in 9th grade and then modern history in 10th grade, and another
has world geography and cultures in 9th grade and then covers all of
world history in 10th grade presuming the prerequisite knowledge of
the cultures, then there is no "placement exam" that will work,
because there is no placement that will not involve either redundancy
or gaps.
And there is even the problem of the order within a grade that subjects
are
taught.
Even with the same curricula different districts may teach out of order to
accomadte special projects, special events, or to add to the curiculum. So
a student transferring mid-year may be at a disadvantage in a new class.
That happens all the time here in South Carolina, even when every school
in
the state must use the same curricula.
|
This is a "problem" only to obsessive-compulsive control freaks.
---
No, it is problem for the paradigm of testing that you propose.
In fact, the problem arises exactly because there is a measure of freedom
within classrooms.
From my own classroom experience have had many, many transfers into our
classrooms from within the state --- and even the county (with 4 school
districts in it) --- where the order in which subjects were taught do not
match.
_You_ propose placement exams, Bib & I showed how that will not work
_precisely_ because of the freedoms you claim do not exist.
Larry |
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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On Jul 2, 12:14 am, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
| Quote: | malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
(Hewitt) ...parents...have no idea what is truly a good education. Most are
content to let the "government" determine that. The rest have options ---
home schooling, private school, charter schools, magnet schools. And by
far most of these don't bother to do more than bitch.
(MK) Either (a) parents make education decisions individually or (b) they
(as voters) make these decisions collectively (in a democracy) or (c)
some undemocratic process makes the determination. I rank these
choices 1(a)-2(b)-3(c). "c" relies on the intelligence and altruism of
bureaucrats, which strikes me as highly unlikely.
A very few choosae (a), often tot he detriment oof hteir child.
The rest choose (b). Even choosing not to vote for schol board or other
officials is a choice.
(c) doesn;t happen .I have --- rarely ----seen parents rise up and overturn
a school board that acts in a manner they do not approve of. When it doen;t
happen it is tzcit approval.
I wouldn't call a lack of opposition to a policy about which one has |
"no idea" and over which one exercises negligible control "tacit
approval" of that policy. That's an odd usage. Did I tacitly approve
any crime which occurred last night in Botawana (Hawaii's antipode)?
"Responsible" means "response"-"able". Aggregation of large numbers of
voters (into, e.g., large school districts) dilutes each individual's
voice, reducing the incentive to participate. Your vote makes about as
much difference to the outcome of an election in a large polity as
your cheers make to the outcome of a professional football game. Go
ahead and cheer if it makes you feel good, but It's stupid to shout
yourself hoarse.
"Democracy" names a large category of feedback mechanisms. In a
representative democracy, even if your candidate wins, you exercise
only weak control over policy. Voters select from a limited range of
candidates, each of whom advocates a mixed bag of policies (and who
may be lying about his/her committment to some of these). When voters
select policy directly (initiative, referendum), again, they face a
limited range of pre-selected options, composed by others. Inevitably,
a bureaucracy filters, interprets, and prioritizes policy directives.
The strength of each individual's impact on policy is inversly related
to the size of the electorate and to the size of the bureaucracy.
Option "c" very much happens even in formally "democratic" polities.
Politicians lie and bureaucrats feather their own nests. In large
districts, parents give up beating their heads against a brick
wall.
Homeschool.
Please read E.G. West, "Education Vouchers in Principle and Practice:
A Survey", The World Bank Research Observer.http://www.worldbank.org/
research/journals/wbro/obsfeb97/educate.htm |
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