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Darrick
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 Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:35 am Post subject: The Religion of Jesus was NOT "Christianity"....it was Zoroa |
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Jesus' "religion" was not "Judaism". The religion of the Jews was the
worship of YAH, and did NOT include any belief in the Afterlife.
The Old Testament contains NOTHING about the Afterlife, or any
afterlife rewards or punishments.
When the Jews were taken captive to Babylon for 70 years in 600 B.C.,
they confronted a religion called Masdayasnan. It was also called
"The
Way of Good" or just "The Way". Paul said in Acts that he belonged to
a sect called "The Way".
The Jews that rejected the Persian religion were called Sadducees.
They believed in the Torah only, which says NOTHING of any Paradise
or
Hell. The Jews that accepted the Persian religion were called
FAROOSHEEM ("Pharisees" in Greek). The name FAROOSHIM meant
"Persians"
in Hebrew.
There were different "Sects" of Pharisees (Faroosheem); one of the
most strict being the NASAREEM (Nazerenes), whose village was called
"Nazareth" (place of the Nazarenes).
In the Gospels Jesus tells the thief on the Cross, "Truly, I say unto
you, this day you will be with me in Pardes".
"Pardes" is NOT a Hebrew or Aramaic nor Greek word. It is FARSEE
(Persian) and comes directly from the religion of Persia. It means
"Garden".
Jesus said, "El is the God of the living and not the god of the
dead".
He meant that literally. El, or YAH, is the Persian Angra Mainyu, who
is the "God" of the Material World. The "God" of the Spiritual World
(the dead) is Ahura Mazda: the Only Wise Lord.
YAH did not promise Moses nor the Israelites any Paradise or Hell
because He is not the God of the Spirit World, but rather the God of
the material world, and can only "curse" and "bless" those who are
alive.
The Jews had NO belief in the Afterlife UNTIL they were held captive
by the Babylonians (and later Persians who conquered the
Babylonians).
The term "Hell" found in the Old Testament is SHOEL and refers to the
cold dead grave, nothing more. The Book of Ecclestiates says "the
dead
known nothing" and that the plans of men END when they are dead. The
term "SOUL" in the Old Testament simply means "Breath" and did not
mean any immortal spirit that survives death. There was NO belief in
an afterlife, no belief in any resurrection of the dead UNTIL the
Jews
were taken to Babylon and Persia.
The religion of "Judaism" in Jesus' day was that of the Sadduccees,
and they rejected any notion of any Afterlife, Paradise, Hell, they
considered all these "Persian" doctrines and not Jewish at all.
The God of the Old Testament, who calls Himself "I AM" (YAH) and "I
AM
THAT I AM" (YAHOOWAH) is Angra Mainyu, was an angry and jealous God
who commanded the Canaanites, men women and children, to be killed.
He
commanded Israelite women (Not men) to be killed for adultery, male
homosexuality (not female), eating shell-fish, breaking the Sabbath,
and using His name in vain. HE IS NOT THE LOVING "FATHER" JESUS TOLD
US ABOUT.
The loving Heavenly Father is Ahura Mazda, the God of the Dead, the
God of Light (Spiritual Realm) of the ancient Persian Prophet
Zoroaster.
The religion of Ahura Mazda contains much material, about as much as
the Bible. It describes the TRUTH about Paradise and Hell-fire and
how
we are saved and judged.
The Religion of Mazda included a special caste of ministers called
"MAGOI". These were hermaphrodytes (men-women) who were considered
dual-spirits (male and female). They were considered to be able to
work supernatural acts (we get the word "MAGIC" from MAGOI--plural
for
MAGUS). The "three wise men" who saw Jesus' star in the East were
MAGOI. The Prophet Daniel became the Chief Magoi of the Emperor
Nebuchadezzar (Daniel chapter 5). They were ZOROASTRIANS.
It was probably Daniel, during his reign as Rab Mag (Head Magus) for
the Babylonian empire that the belief in the "Messiah" arose among
the
Jews. He job that directly from the Religion of Mazda.
The Prophet Zoroaster told of three SAOSHAYNTS ("Saviors") who would
be born of virgins. One was King Koresh (Cyrus), the Persian Emperor.
Another was Jesus. And the third was born in Jerusalem in 1909, the
son of a Palestinian Christian woman. He performed thousands of
supernatural miracles. His name was DAHESH....
Read more about Him at.....
http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/dahesh/ |
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aio
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: The Religion of Jesus was NOT "Christianity"....it was Z |
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You could be right that other influences affected Christianity and
Judaism. However you fail to note that "God is One" which is a central
feature of both Judaism and Christianity. Both Judaism and
Christianity are Monotheistic religions.
Marshall
Darrick wrote:
| Quote: | Jesus' "religion" was not "Judaism". The religion of the Jews was the
worship of YAH, and did NOT include any belief in the Afterlife.
The Old Testament contains NOTHING about the Afterlife, or any
afterlife rewards or punishments.
When the Jews were taken captive to Babylon for 70 years in 600 B.C.,
they confronted a religion called Masdayasnan. It was also called
"The
Way of Good" or just "The Way". Paul said in Acts that he belonged to
a sect called "The Way".
The Jews that rejected the Persian religion were called Sadducees.
They believed in the Torah only, which says NOTHING of any Paradise
or
Hell. The Jews that accepted the Persian religion were called
FAROOSHEEM ("Pharisees" in Greek). The name FAROOSHIM meant
"Persians"
in Hebrew.
There were different "Sects" of Pharisees (Faroosheem); one of the
most strict being the NASAREEM (Nazerenes), whose village was called
"Nazareth" (place of the Nazarenes).
In the Gospels Jesus tells the thief on the Cross, "Truly, I say unto
you, this day you will be with me in Pardes".
"Pardes" is NOT a Hebrew or Aramaic nor Greek word. It is FARSEE
(Persian) and comes directly from the religion of Persia. It means
"Garden".
Jesus said, "El is the God of the living and not the god of the
dead".
He meant that literally. El, or YAH, is the Persian Angra Mainyu, who
is the "God" of the Material World. The "God" of the Spiritual World
(the dead) is Ahura Mazda: the Only Wise Lord.
YAH did not promise Moses nor the Israelites any Paradise or Hell
because He is not the God of the Spirit World, but rather the God of
the material world, and can only "curse" and "bless" those who are
alive.
The Jews had NO belief in the Afterlife UNTIL they were held captive
by the Babylonians (and later Persians who conquered the
Babylonians).
The term "Hell" found in the Old Testament is SHOEL and refers to the
cold dead grave, nothing more. The Book of Ecclestiates says "the
dead
known nothing" and that the plans of men END when they are dead. The
term "SOUL" in the Old Testament simply means "Breath" and did not
mean any immortal spirit that survives death. There was NO belief in
an afterlife, no belief in any resurrection of the dead UNTIL the
Jews
were taken to Babylon and Persia.
The religion of "Judaism" in Jesus' day was that of the Sadduccees,
and they rejected any notion of any Afterlife, Paradise, Hell, they
considered all these "Persian" doctrines and not Jewish at all.
The God of the Old Testament, who calls Himself "I AM" (YAH) and "I
AM
THAT I AM" (YAHOOWAH) is Angra Mainyu, was an angry and jealous God
who commanded the Canaanites, men women and children, to be killed.
He
commanded Israelite women (Not men) to be killed for adultery, male
homosexuality (not female), eating shell-fish, breaking the Sabbath,
and using His name in vain. HE IS NOT THE LOVING "FATHER" JESUS TOLD
US ABOUT.
The loving Heavenly Father is Ahura Mazda, the God of the Dead, the
God of Light (Spiritual Realm) of the ancient Persian Prophet
Zoroaster.
The religion of Ahura Mazda contains much material, about as much as
the Bible. It describes the TRUTH about Paradise and Hell-fire and
how
we are saved and judged.
The Religion of Mazda included a special caste of ministers called
"MAGOI". These were hermaphrodytes (men-women) who were considered
dual-spirits (male and female). They were considered to be able to
work supernatural acts (we get the word "MAGIC" from MAGOI--plural
for
MAGUS). The "three wise men" who saw Jesus' star in the East were
MAGOI. The Prophet Daniel became the Chief Magoi of the Emperor
Nebuchadezzar (Daniel chapter 5). They were ZOROASTRIANS.
It was probably Daniel, during his reign as Rab Mag (Head Magus) for
the Babylonian empire that the belief in the "Messiah" arose among
the
Jews. He job that directly from the Religion of Mazda.
The Prophet Zoroaster told of three SAOSHAYNTS ("Saviors") who would
be born of virgins. One was King Koresh (Cyrus), the Persian Emperor.
Another was Jesus. And the third was born in Jerusalem in 1909, the
son of a Palestinian Christian woman. He performed thousands of
supernatural miracles. His name was DAHESH....
Read more about Him at.....
http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/dahesh/
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Heideana
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: The Religion of Jesus was NOT "Christianity"....it was |
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Isn't there some disagreement if the Father is a monad or a dyad in
the Gnostic literature available to us? Not sure how it effects the
overall conversation, but I just read about the monad/dyad issue last
week....
On Apr 21, 8:49 am, aio <mwda...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | You could be right that other influences affected Christianity and
Judaism. However you fail to note that "God is One" which is a central
feature of both Judaism and Christianity. Both Judaism and
Christianity are Monotheistic religions.
Marshall
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Catawumpus
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: Re: The Religion of Jesus |
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Heideana <heideana@pacbell.net>:
| Quote: | Isn't there some disagreement if the Father is a monad or a dyad in
the Gnostic literature available to us? Not sure how it effects the
overall conversation, but I just read about the monad/dyad issue last
week....
|
Some differences there, yeah, just like you say, since the
Father is sometimes called a monad (the Apocryphon of John
comes to mind), but sometimes said to be a dyad, for example by
Valentinus according to the account in Irenaeus' _Adversus
Haereses_ 1.11.1, where he's described as "inexpressible by any
name" but divided in two parts, viz. "Arrhetus," meaning
something like "beyond speech," and "Sige," which means silence.
-- Catawumpus |
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Azure
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Re: The Religion of Jesus was NOT "Christianity"....it was |
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Darrick wrote:
| Quote: |
Jesus' "religion" was not "Judaism". The religion of the Jews was the
worship of YAH, and did NOT include any belief in the Afterlife.
|
Life is the Eternal Path and they did believe in the "Mountain"!
| Quote: |
The Old Testament contains NOTHING about the Afterlife, or any
afterlife rewards or punishments.
|
Just the next step.
| Quote: |
When the Jews were taken captive to Babylon for 70 years in 600 B.C.,
they confronted a religion called Masdayasnan. It was also called
"The
Way of Good" or just "The Way". Paul said in Acts that he belonged to
a sect called "The Way".
|
Odins Rainbow Bridge.
| Quote: |
The Jews that rejected the Persian religion were called Sadducees.
They believed in the Torah only, which says NOTHING of any Paradise
or
Hell.
|
Wrong Abraham bought the Cave to the Underground Kingdom to Bury Sarah.
The Jews that accepted the Persian religion were called
| Quote: | FAROOSHEEM ("Pharisees" in Greek). The name FAROOSHIM meant
"Persians"
in Hebrew.
There were different "Sects" of Pharisees (Faroosheem); one of the
most strict being the NASAREEM (Nazerenes), whose village was called
"Nazareth" (place of the Nazarenes).
|
Dagon is the Ear of Corn, what do you call an Ear of Corn?
"A Cob". J is silent Jacob was the "Ear of Corn"!
| Quote: |
In the Gospels Jesus tells the thief on the Cross, "Truly, I say unto
you, this day you will be with me in Pardes".
"Pardes" is NOT a Hebrew or Aramaic nor Greek word. It is FARSEE
(Persian) and comes directly from the religion of Persia. It means
"Garden".
Jesus said, "El is the God of the living and not the god of the
dead".
He meant that literally. El, or YAH, is the Persian Angra Mainyu, who
is the "God" of the Material World. The "God" of the Spiritual World
(the dead) is Ahura Mazda: the Only Wise Lord.
|
Combined the 2 are the Annon and Co-Annon!
| Quote: |
YAH did not promise Moses nor the Israelites any Paradise or Hell
because He is not the God of the Spirit World, but rather the God of
the material world, and can only "curse" and "bless" those who are
alive.
|
Your a Gnostic.
Abraham Bought the Place.
Jethro tried to lead Moses and his people there but they refused to
enter unless they could slay those who already lived there.
That was when God turned from them and they spent 40 years wandering!
| Quote: |
The Jews had NO belief in the Afterlife UNTIL they were held captive
by the Babylonians (and later Persians who conquered the
Babylonians).
The term "Hell" found in the Old Testament is SHOEL and refers to the
cold dead grave, nothing more.
|
No it is Hittite Teaching, similar to the Greek Teaching of the
Underground Kingdom!
The Book of Ecclestiates says "the
| Quote: | dead
known nothing" and that the plans of men END when they are dead. The
term "SOUL" in the Old Testament simply means "Breath" and did not
mean any immortal spirit that survives death. There was NO belief in
an afterlife, no belief in any resurrection of the dead UNTIL the
Jews
were taken to Babylon and Persia.
|
The River gave the Teachings.
| Quote: |
The religion of "Judaism" in Jesus' day was that of the Sadduccees,
and they rejected any notion of any Afterlife, Paradise, Hell, they
considered all these "Persian" doctrines and not Jewish at all.
|
Rome Played Blender with everything Non Roman they got a hold of.
Especially Gaelic Stuff, damn they hated Gaul!
| Quote: |
The God of the Old Testament, who calls Himself "I AM" (YAH) and "I
AM
THAT I AM" (YAHOOWAH) is Angra Mainyu, was an angry and jealous God
who commanded the Canaanites, men women and children, to be killed.
He
commanded Israelite women (Not men) to be killed for adultery, male
homosexuality (not female), eating shell-fish, breaking the Sabbath,
and using His name in vain. HE IS NOT THE LOVING "FATHER" JESUS TOLD
US ABOUT.
|
No a rather Blood Thirsty Hate Monger which destroys its enemies.
| Quote: |
The loving Heavenly Father is Ahura Mazda,
|
No that is DAGDA, the GOOD GOD or ALL FATHER!
the God of the Dead, the
| Quote: | God of Light (Spiritual Realm) of the ancient Persian Prophet
Zoroaster.
|
The White Light which the Soul Knows is Ahura Mazda.
| Quote: |
The religion of Ahura Mazda contains much material, about as much as
the Bible. It describes the TRUTH about Paradise and Hell-fire and
how
we are saved and judged.
The Religion of Mazda included a special caste of ministers called
"MAGOI". These were hermaphrodytes (men-women) who were considered
dual-spirits (male and female). They were considered to be able to
work supernatural acts (we get the word "MAGIC" from MAGOI--plural
for
MAGUS).
|
No it is a Gaelic Term, Magh is a term for the Chieftain, Magh Gi, is a
Chieftain of my name.
The "three wise men" who saw Jesus' star in the East were
The Cairbre, are the 3 Headed Wolf or "Hounds of Hell".
The Prophet Daniel became the Chief Magoi of the Emperor
| Quote: | Nebuchadezzar (Daniel chapter 5). They were ZOROASTRIANS.
It was probably Daniel, during his reign as Rab Mag (Head Magus) for
the Babylonian empire that the belief in the "Messiah" arose among
the
Jews. He job that directly from the Religion of Mazda.
|
Then it is Maassiah and that is a term for the "Keeper of the Doors"!
| Quote: |
The Prophet Zoroaster told of three SAOSHAYNTS ("Saviors") who would
be born of virgins. One was King Koresh (Cyrus), the Persian Emperor.
Another was Jesus. And the third was born in Jerusalem in 1909, the
son of a Palestinian Christian woman. He performed thousands of
supernatural miracles. His name was DAHESH....
Read more about Him at.....
http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/dahesh/
|
Sorry God says I am the 3rd G to the Arianhod. |
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Azure
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: Re: The Religion of Jesus was NOT "Christianity"....it was |
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aio wrote:
| Quote: |
You could be right that other influences affected Christianity and
Judaism. However you fail to note that "God is One" which is a central
feature of both Judaism and Christianity. Both Judaism and
Christianity are Monotheistic religions.
|
No, they are based upon the Deu, the concept that GOD is "All Things"
both Male and Female.
Jehovah and Jera!
2 Paths/Ways, Bi Ble!
| Quote: |
Marshall
Darrick wrote:
Jesus' "religion" was not "Judaism". The religion of the Jews was the
worship of YAH, and did NOT include any belief in the Afterlife.
The Old Testament contains NOTHING about the Afterlife, or any
afterlife rewards or punishments.
When the Jews were taken captive to Babylon for 70 years in 600 B.C.,
they confronted a religion called Masdayasnan. It was also called
"The
Way of Good" or just "The Way". Paul said in Acts that he belonged to
a sect called "The Way".
The Jews that rejected the Persian religion were called Sadducees.
They believed in the Torah only, which says NOTHING of any Paradise
or
Hell. The Jews that accepted the Persian religion were called
FAROOSHEEM ("Pharisees" in Greek). The name FAROOSHIM meant
"Persians"
in Hebrew.
There were different "Sects" of Pharisees (Faroosheem); one of the
most strict being the NASAREEM (Nazerenes), whose village was called
"Nazareth" (place of the Nazarenes).
In the Gospels Jesus tells the thief on the Cross, "Truly, I say unto
you, this day you will be with me in Pardes".
"Pardes" is NOT a Hebrew or Aramaic nor Greek word. It is FARSEE
(Persian) and comes directly from the religion of Persia. It means
"Garden".
Jesus said, "El is the God of the living and not the god of the
dead".
He meant that literally. El, or YAH, is the Persian Angra Mainyu, who
is the "God" of the Material World. The "God" of the Spiritual World
(the dead) is Ahura Mazda: the Only Wise Lord.
YAH did not promise Moses nor the Israelites any Paradise or Hell
because He is not the God of the Spirit World, but rather the God of
the material world, and can only "curse" and "bless" those who are
alive.
The Jews had NO belief in the Afterlife UNTIL they were held captive
by the Babylonians (and later Persians who conquered the
Babylonians).
The term "Hell" found in the Old Testament is SHOEL and refers to the
cold dead grave, nothing more. The Book of Ecclestiates says "the
dead
known nothing" and that the plans of men END when they are dead. The
term "SOUL" in the Old Testament simply means "Breath" and did not
mean any immortal spirit that survives death. There was NO belief in
an afterlife, no belief in any resurrection of the dead UNTIL the
Jews
were taken to Babylon and Persia.
The religion of "Judaism" in Jesus' day was that of the Sadduccees,
and they rejected any notion of any Afterlife, Paradise, Hell, they
considered all these "Persian" doctrines and not Jewish at all.
The God of the Old Testament, who calls Himself "I AM" (YAH) and "I
AM
THAT I AM" (YAHOOWAH) is Angra Mainyu, was an angry and jealous God
who commanded the Canaanites, men women and children, to be killed.
He
commanded Israelite women (Not men) to be killed for adultery, male
homosexuality (not female), eating shell-fish, breaking the Sabbath,
and using His name in vain. HE IS NOT THE LOVING "FATHER" JESUS TOLD
US ABOUT.
The loving Heavenly Father is Ahura Mazda, the God of the Dead, the
God of Light (Spiritual Realm) of the ancient Persian Prophet
Zoroaster.
The religion of Ahura Mazda contains much material, about as much as
the Bible. It describes the TRUTH about Paradise and Hell-fire and
how
we are saved and judged.
The Religion of Mazda included a special caste of ministers called
"MAGOI". These were hermaphrodytes (men-women) who were considered
dual-spirits (male and female). They were considered to be able to
work supernatural acts (we get the word "MAGIC" from MAGOI--plural
for
MAGUS). The "three wise men" who saw Jesus' star in the East were
MAGOI. The Prophet Daniel became the Chief Magoi of the Emperor
Nebuchadezzar (Daniel chapter 5). They were ZOROASTRIANS.
It was probably Daniel, during his reign as Rab Mag (Head Magus) for
the Babylonian empire that the belief in the "Messiah" arose among
the
Jews. He job that directly from the Religion of Mazda.
The Prophet Zoroaster told of three SAOSHAYNTS ("Saviors") who would
be born of virgins. One was King Koresh (Cyrus), the Persian Emperor.
Another was Jesus. And the third was born in Jerusalem in 1909, the
son of a Palestinian Christian woman. He performed thousands of
supernatural miracles. His name was DAHESH....
Read more about Him at.....
http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/dahesh/
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aio
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:03 am Post subject: Re: The Religion of Jesus was NOT "Christianity"....it was Z |
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Darrick wrote:
Interesting! I was unaware that the term "Soul" meant "breath" in the
"Old testament" though after reading this in your post I looked into it
and it does seem that the word "Soul" comes from Greek meaning breath.
" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul " The term "Spirit" means
"breath' in Latin which is one of the main languages of the "New
Testament". Could this tell us anything? It is clear that "Breath" is
an important part of the Hatha Yoga practices of many Hindu mystics. If
the body is the "Temple of God" where then does the "Breath" fit into
this temple? The Greeks seem to see the "breath" as an animating force
in life. In the New testament it is noted in Romans 8:11
"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in
you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your
mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you"
and if we understand "Spirit" to mean breath does this mean their is
more to the "Breath" then some might suggest? Is it the "Breath" that
animates the body or as the doctors would suggest the body that animates
the breath?
What is Jacob's ladder anyway if not the "breath"? The path to
immortality may be simpler then we think.
=============
"The term "SOUL" in the Old Testament simply means "Breath" and did not
mean any immortal spirit that survives death. There was NO belief in
an afterlife, no belief in any resurrection of the dead UNTIL the
Jews"
Darrick wrote:
| Quote: | cold dead grave, nothing more. The Book of Ecclestiates says "the
dead
known nothing" and that the plans of men END when they are dead. The
term "SOUL" in the Old Testament simply means "Breath" and did not
mean any immortal spirit that survives death. There was NO belief in
an afterlife, no belief in any resurrection of the dead UNTIL the
Jews
were taken to Babylon and Persia.
|
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| Back to top |
Catawumpus
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: Re: The Religion of Jesus was NOT "Christianity"....it was Z |
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aio <mwdarcy@gmail.com>:
| Quote: | If the body is the "Temple of God" where then does the "Breath" fit into
this temple?
|
In gnosticism, the body isn't a temple: it's a prison the
spirit needs to be freed from. Take for example the
Apocryphon of John, where the archons that reincarnate the soul
"bind it with bonds and cast it into the prison" -- that's
ApJohn 27:7-8 -- and a little later on -- 31:3-4 -- the Pronoia
states, "I entered the midst of their prison, the prison of
the body..." The Gospel of Philip says the soul is "a precious
thing...in a contemptible body" (56:24). The Book of John --
part of the Mandaean writings -- says, "The body holds back its
master from returning home," and the Book of Thomas the
Contender is uncompromising: "Woe to you who hope in the flesh
and in the prison that will perish!" (143:10-1.) Etc.
Shouldn't be any surprise, since gnostics are famously critical
of Creator and Creation.
-- Catawumpus |
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aio
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: The Religion of Jesus was NOT "Christianity"....it was Z |
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Yes Mortification of the flesh to purify the Soul(breath) is common in
many religions but you still need the soul (breath). Clearly the carnal
is not the path to the Spiritual. The problem is that unless you have a
carnal body you can not get to God. If you remember that when they wrote
Spirit that they meant breath then every thing is more understandable.
One must go inside ones conscious experience of body by closing the eyes
and mouth and going into the closet to experience the spirit/breath to
get to the Kingdom of Heaven as is pointed out in the Gnostic Scriptures
more clearly even then the New Testament.
Catawumpus wrote:
| Quote: | aio <mwdarcy@gmail.com>:
If the body is the "Temple of God" where then does the "Breath" fit into
this temple?
In gnosticism, the body isn't a temple: it's a prison the
spirit needs to be freed from. Take for example the
Apocryphon of John, where the archons that reincarnate the soul
"bind it with bonds and cast it into the prison" -- that's
ApJohn 27:7-8 -- and a little later on -- 31:3-4 -- the Pronoia
states, "I entered the midst of their prison, the prison of
the body..." The Gospel of Philip says the soul is "a precious
thing...in a contemptible body" (56:24). The Book of John --
part of the Mandaean writings -- says, "The body holds back its
master from returning home," and the Book of Thomas the
Contender is uncompromising: "Woe to you who hope in the flesh
and in the prison that will perish!" (143:10-1.) Etc.
Shouldn't be any surprise, since gnostics are famously critical
of Creator and Creation.
-- Catawumpus |
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Catawumpus
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: Re: The Religion of Jesus was NOT "Christianity"....it was Z |
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|
aio <mwdarcy@gmail.com>:
| Quote: | Yes Mortification of the flesh to purify the Soul(breath) is common in
many religions but you still need the soul (breath).
|
Gnosticism in particular (not religion at large) goes well
beyond mere mortification of the flesh by attacking the
material world and describing the body as a prison for the soul.
| Quote: | Clearly the carnal
is not the path to the Spiritual. The problem is that unless you have a
carnal body you can not get to God.
|
In gnosticism the problem is that the spirit is trapped in
the body and in the world more generally: an evil place
shaped by the Demiurge, not by God. Of course the story varies.
Sometimes there are demiurges, plural (the Simonians'
malicious angels, for example), sometimes the world is an exile
or a labyrinth (the thinking of the Valentinians and the
Naasenes respectively), and so forth. Many gnostic schools and
writings, none entirely alike, some of them with their own
conflicts. But the central world-rejecting, life-denying theme
is unmistakable.
-- Catawumpus |
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| |
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| Back to top |
aio
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: Re: The Religion of Jesus was NOT "Christianity"....it was Z |
|
|
You are right to suggest that the Gnostic's saw the body as a prison
however this only applies to certain situations.
You note
Apocryphon According to John
"And I entered into the midst of their prison, which is the prison of
the body. And I said, 'He who hears, let him get up from the deep sleep."
Yet in that same Apocryphon you have
"And he said to the authorities which attend him, 'Come, let us create a
man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that
his image may become a light for us.' "
"And the power of the mother went out of Yaltabaoth into the natural
body, which they had fashioned after the image of the one who exists
from the beginning. The body moved and gained strength, and it was
luminous."
"And they said to Yaltabaoth, 'Blow into his face something of your
spirit and his body will arise.'"
(this above quote is interesting because this is baptism by
Spirit/Breath instead of the more common baptism by water.)
================================
Their is no doubt that the Gnostic's like the "Orthodox ones" saw the
body as made in the "Image of God" and like the "Orthodox ones" they
saw it as a Temple where one could find God.
Teachings of Silvanus
"You were a temple, (but) you have made yourself a tomb. Cease being a
tomb, and become (again) a temple, so that uprightness and divinity may
remain in you."
"Let Christ alone enter your world, and let him bring to naught all
powers which have come upon you. Let him enter the temple which is
within you, so that he may cast out all the merchants. Let him dwell in
the temple which is within you, and may you become for him a priest and
a Levite, entering in purity."
Do not bring grief and trouble to the divine which is within you.
But when you will care for it, will request of it that you remain pure,
and will become self-controlled in your soul and body, you will become a
throne of wisdom, and one belonging to God's household. He will give you
a great light through it (wisdom).
============================
The problem is that we have two situations
we have Spiritual knowledge and we have Carnal knowledge
we have knowledge of the breath and we have knowledge of the flesh
we have pleasures of the Spirit and Pleasures of the flesh.
We have Breath quickens the flesh and we have the flesh quickens the breath.
Romans
008:011 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead
dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall
also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in
you.
008:006 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually
minded is life and peace.
You have two directions and one can chose either "externals", Flesh and
fleshly pleasures or "within", Spirit and Godly pleasures.
A spiritual man sees a man who is attending to externals and he sees a
man who is in a prison while if he sees another man attentive to his
spirit/breath within then he sees a man who is in a temple and a temple
in which God dwells. The problem with the prison perception of a
person in a body is that to get out of the prison one must go within.
The path to liberation or to God is an inward path not an outward one.
To a man who truly accepts Jesus/God then Jesus/God breaths him he does
not breath himself. This is true and is not a function of religion.
The element that determines which direction one goes is the mind. If
the mind attends to externals then one goes that direction if the mind
is quited and at rest and one attends to ones Spirit/breath then one
goes to God.
AIO
Catawumpus wrote:
| Quote: | aio <mwdarcy@gmail.com>:
Yes Mortification of the flesh to purify the Soul(breath) is common in
many religions but you still need the soul (breath).
Gnosticism in particular (not religion at large) goes well
beyond mere mortification of the flesh by attacking the
material world and describing the body as a prison for the soul.
Clearly the carnal
is not the path to the Spiritual. The problem is that unless you have a
carnal body you can not get to God.
In gnosticism the problem is that the spirit is trapped in
the body and in the world more generally: an evil place
shaped by the Demiurge, not by God. Of course the story varies.
Sometimes there are demiurges, plural (the Simonians'
malicious angels, for example), sometimes the world is an exile
or a labyrinth (the thinking of the Valentinians and the
Naasenes respectively), and so forth. Many gnostic schools and
writings, none entirely alike, some of them with their own
conflicts. But the central world-rejecting, life-denying theme
is unmistakable.
-- Catawumpus |
|
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
aio
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: The Religion of Jesus was NOT "Christianity"....it was Z |
|
|
You are right to suggest that the Gnostic's saw the body as a prison
however this only applies to certain situations.
You note
Apocryphon According to John
"And I entered into the midst of their prison, which is the prison of
the body. And I said, 'He who hears, let him get up from the deep sleep."
Yet in that same Apocryphon you have
"And he said to the authorities which attend him, 'Come, let us create a
man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that
his image may become a light for us.' "
"And the power of the mother went out of Yaltabaoth into the natural
body, which they had fashioned after the image of the one who exists
from the beginning. The body moved and gained strength, and it was
luminous."
"And they said to Yaltabaoth, 'Blow into his face something of your
spirit and his body will arise.'"
(this above quote is interesting because this is baptism by
Spirit/Breath instead of the more common baptism by water.)
================================
Their is no doubt that the Gnostic's like the "Orthodox ones" saw the
body as made in the "Image of God" and like the "Orthodox ones" they
saw it as a Temple where one could find God.
Teachings of Silvanus
"You were a temple, (but) you have made yourself a tomb. Cease being a
tomb, and become (again) a temple, so that uprightness and divinity may
remain in you."
"Let Christ alone enter your world, and let him bring to naught all
powers which have come upon you. Let him enter the temple which is
within you, so that he may cast out all the merchants. Let him dwell in
the temple which is within you, and may you become for him a priest and
a Levite, entering in purity."
Do not bring grief and trouble to the divine which is within you.
But when you will care for it, will request of it that you remain pure,
and will become self-controlled in your soul and body, you will become a
throne of wisdom, and one belonging to God's household. He will give you
a great light through it (wisdom).
============================
The problem is that we have two situations
we have Spiritual knowledge and we have Carnal knowledge
we have knowledge of the breath and we have knowledge of the flesh
we have pleasures of the Spirit and Pleasures of the flesh.
We have Breath quickens the flesh and we have the flesh quickens the breath.
Romans
008:011 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead
dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall
also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in
you.
008:006 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually
minded is life and peace.
You have two directions and one can chose either "externals", Flesh and
fleshly pleasures or "within", Spirit and Godly pleasures.
A spiritual man sees a man who is attending to externals and he sees a
man who is in a prison while if he sees another man attentive to his
spirit/breath within then he sees a man who is in a temple and a temple
in which God dwells. The problem with the prison perception of a
person in a body is that to get out of the prison one must go within.
The path to liberation or to God is an inward path not an outward one.
To a man who truly accepts Jesus/God then Jesus/God breaths him he does
not breath himself. This is true and is not a function of religion. The
element that determines which direction one goes is the mind. If the
mind attends to externals then one goes that direction if the mind is
quited and at rest and one attends to ones Spirit/breath then one goes
to God.
AIO
Catawumpus wrote:
| Quote: | aio <mwdarcy@gmail.com>:
Yes Mortification of the flesh to purify the Soul(breath) is common in
many religions but you still need the soul (breath).
Gnosticism in particular (not religion at large) goes well
beyond mere mortification of the flesh by attacking the
material world and describing the body as a prison for the soul.
Clearly the carnal
is not the path to the Spiritual. The problem is that unless you have a
carnal body you can not get to God.
In gnosticism the problem is that the spirit is trapped in
the body and in the world more generally: an evil place
shaped by the Demiurge, not by God. Of course the story varies.
Sometimes there are demiurges, plural (the Simonians'
malicious angels, for example), sometimes the world is an exile
or a labyrinth (the thinking of the Valentinians and the
Naasenes respectively), and so forth. Many gnostic schools and
writings, none entirely alike, some of them with their own
conflicts. But the central world-rejecting, life-denying theme
is unmistakable.
-- Catawumpus |
|
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Catawumpus
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: The Religion of Jesus was NOT "Christianity"....it was Z |
|
|
aio <mwdarcy@gmail.com>:
Hi there, Darcy. Would you mind very much if I asked you
not to top-post? Thanks.
| Quote: | You are right to suggest that the Gnostic's saw the body as a prison
however this only applies to certain situations.
|
The gnostics' opinion that the body is a prison applies in
any situation where there are souls trapped in flesh. The
stories vary, as I mentioned before -- many gnostic schools and
writings, no two entirely alike, some divided within
themselves -- so there are other images, too. For instance the
Naasenes describe this world as a labyrinth and the
Valentinians see it as an exile. But the central
world-rejecting, life-denying theme is unmistakable even though
the details differ from place to place.
| Quote: | You note Apocryphon According to John
|
I supplied a whole bunch of examples showing that the body
is a prison or the like in gnosticism, including the
Apocryphon of John, where the archons that reincarnate the soul
"bind it with bonds and cast it into the prison" -- that's
ApJohn 27:7-8 -- and a little later on -- 31:3-4 -- the Pronoia
states, "I entered the midst of their prison, the prison of
the body..." The Gospel of Philip says the soul is "a precious
thing...in a contemptible body" (56:24). The Book of John --
part of the Mandaean writings -- says, "The body holds back its
master from returning home," and the Book of Thomas the
Contender is uncompromising: "Woe to you who hope in the flesh
and in the prison that will perish!" (143:10-1.) Etc.
Shouldn't be any surprise, since gnostics are famously critical
of Creator and Creation.
You answered with something about the mortification of the
flesh in many religions -- but gnosticism is a specific
religious perspective (not religion at large) where the body is
rejected rather than scourged.
In your view "The problem is that unless you have a carnal
body you can not get to God." Sorry if that's been a
difficulty for you, but in gnosticism the trouble is the soul's
imprisonment in the body and in the cosmos generally -- a
crappy place shaped by the Demiurge, not by God. Of course the
story isn't always the same, as I already explained --
sometimes there are multiple demiurges (the world-making angels
of the Simonians), for example -- but broadly speaking the
idea of reaching God is linked with escaping the material world.
| Quote: | Their is no doubt that the Gnostic's like the "Orthodox ones" saw the
body as made in the "Image of God" and like the "Orthodox ones" they
saw it as a Temple where one could find God.
|
There's considerable evidence showing the body is a prison
or otherwise disparged in gnosticism. I've given a whole
string of examples with chapter and verse. You also don't seem
to realize that gnosticism and orthodoxy have drastically
different concepts of God. The orthodox deify the Lord and the
Maker of this world, but the gnostics reduce him from his
status as god supreme to a very inferior demiurge, claiming the
true God is someone else entirely.
| Quote: | Teachings of Silvanus
|
Not a gnostic writing. The Nag Hammadi Library (where the
Teachings of Silvanus comes from) has a range of things:
gnosticism, Hermeticism, wisdom-teachings, even some of Plato's
_Republic_.
| Quote: | Apocryphon According to John
"And I entered into the midst of their prison, which is the prison of
the body. And I said, 'He who hears, let him get up from the deep sleep."
|
Uh-huh. "The prison of the body." And the archons which
reincarnate the soul are said to "bind it with bonds and
cast it into the prison." Once again the body is described as
a jail.
| Quote: | Yet in that same Apocryphon you have
"And he said to the authorities which attend him, 'Come, let us create a
man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that
his image may become a light for us.' "
|
Yet nothing. In the ApJohn, the body _isn't_ made by God
-- an obvious contrast to orthodoxy -- but rather by
Yaldabaoth, an evil demiurge, and the other archons (those are
the "authorities" in the Wisse translation that you're
quoting from). Needless to say, they do a very poor job. You
wrongly claim that they made a "temple of the soul." The
ApJohn says your supposed temple is full of demons. In ApJohn
18:2-30 we're informed about "the wellspring of the demons
that are all in the body" and told, "the mother of them all is
matter," here named Onorthokhrasaei.
So no, the archons _don't_ make a man in the image of God
despite what they say. Instead they create a demon-ridden
body far too much like _them_ ("according to our likeness," in
case you didn't notice what you quoted). It's highly
defective in another way, too: it can't budge. ApJohn
19:10-14 says, "For a long time their product existed inactive
and immovable."
| Quote: | "And the power of the mother went out of Yaltabaoth into the natural
body, which they had fashioned after the image of the one who exists
from the beginning. The body moved and gained strength, and it was
luminous."
|
See? The body made by the archons doesn't move until the
demiurge blows into it the power that he had stolen from
Sophia, his mom. Part of the story you skipped explains she's
taking the opportunity to get it back. But that plan
requires putting the power, or spirit, into the demon-infested
body made by Yaldabaoth and the other archons, bringing us
back to the theme of the body as a prison, exactly what you're
trying to avoid. So long as the spirit remains trapped in
the flesh it's a prisoner of the archons, who do their best to
keep it chained there.
-- Catawumpus |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Catawumpus
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: The Religion of Jesus was NOT "Christianity"....it was Z |
|
|
aio <mwdarcy@gmail.com>:
Hi there, Darcy. Would you mind very much if I asked you
not to top-post? Thanks.
| Quote: | You are right to suggest that the Gnostic's saw the body as a prison
however this only applies to certain situations.
|
The gnostics' opinion that the body is a prison applies in
any situation where there are souls trapped in flesh. The
stories vary, as I mentioned before -- many gnostic schools and
writings, no two entirely alike, some divided within
themselves -- so there are other images, too. For instance the
Naasenes describe this world as a labyrinth and the
Valentinians see it as an exile. But the central
world-rejecting, life-denying theme is unmistakable even though
the details differ from place to place.
| Quote: | You note Apocryphon According to John
|
I supplied a whole bunch of examples showing that the body
is a prison or the like in gnosticism, including the
Apocryphon of John, where the archons that reincarnate the soul
"bind it with bonds and cast it into the prison" -- that's
ApJohn 27:7-8 -- and a little later on -- 31:3-4 -- the Pronoia
states, "I entered the midst of their prison, the prison of
the body..." The Gospel of Philip says the soul is "a precious
thing...in a contemptible body" (56:24). The Book of John --
part of the Mandaean writings -- says, "The body holds back its
master from returning home," and the Book of Thomas the
Contender is uncompromising: "Woe to you who hope in the flesh
and in the prison that will perish!" (143:10-1.) Etc.
Shouldn't be any surprise, since gnostics are famously critical
of Creator and Creation.
You answered with something about the mortification of the
flesh in many religions -- but gnosticism is a specific
religious perspective (not religion at large) where the body is
rejected rather than scourged.
In your view "The problem is that unless you have a carnal
body you can not get to God." Sorry if that's been a
difficulty for you, but in gnosticism the trouble is the soul's
imprisonment in the body and in the cosmos generally -- a
crappy place shaped by the Demiurge, not by God. Of course the
story isn't always the same, as I already explained --
sometimes there are multiple demiurges (the world-making angels
of the Simonians), for example -- but broadly speaking the
idea of reaching God is linked with escaping the material world.
| Quote: | Their is no doubt that the Gnostic's like the "Orthodox ones" saw the
body as made in the "Image of God" and like the "Orthodox ones" they
saw it as a Temple where one could find God.
|
There's considerable evidence showing the body is a prison
or otherwise disparged in gnosticism. I've given a whole
string of examples with chapter and verse. You also don't seem
to realize that gnosticism and orthodoxy have drastically
different concepts of God. The orthodox deify the Lord and the
Maker of this world, but the gnostics reduce him from his
status as god supreme to a very inferior demiurge, claiming the
true God is someone else entirely.
| Quote: | Teachings of Silvanus
|
Not a gnostic writing. The Nag Hammadi Library (where the
Teachings of Silvanus comes from) has a range of things:
gnosticism, Hermeticism, wisdom-teachings, even some of Plato's
_Republic_.
| Quote: | Apocryphon According to John
"And I entered into the midst of their prison, which is the prison of
the body. And I said, 'He who hears, let him get up from the deep sleep."
|
Uh-huh. "The prison of the body." And the archons which
reincarnate the soul are said to "bind it with bonds and
cast it into the prison." Once again the body is described as
a jail.
| Quote: | Yet in that same Apocryphon you have
"And he said to the authorities which attend him, 'Come, let us create a
man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that
his image may become a light for us.' "
|
Yet nothing. In the ApJohn, the body _isn't_ made by God
-- an obvious contrast to orthodoxy -- but rather by
Yaldabaoth, an evil demiurge, and the other archons (those are
the "authorities" in the Wisse translation that you're
quoting from). Needless to say, they do a very poor job. You
wrongly claim that they made a "temple of the soul." The
ApJohn says your supposed temple is full of demons. In ApJohn
18:2-30 we're informed about "the wellspring of the demons
that are all in the body" and told, "the mother of them all is
matter," here named Onorthokhrasaei.
So no, the archons _don't_ make a man in the image of God
despite what they say. Instead they create a demon-ridden
body far too much like _them_ ("according to our likeness," in
case you didn't notice what you quoted). It's highly
defective in another way, too: it can't budge. ApJohn
19:10-14 says, "For a long time their product existed inactive
and immovable."
| Quote: | "And the power of the mother went out of Yaltabaoth into the natural
body, which they had fashioned after the image of the one who exists
from the beginning. The body moved and gained strength, and it was
luminous."
|
See? The body made by the archons doesn't move until the
demiurge blows into it the power that he had stolen from
Sophia, his mom. Part of the story you skipped explains she's
taking the opportunity to get it back. But that plan
requires putting the power, or spirit, into the demon-infested
body made by Yaldabaoth and the other archons, bringing us
back to the theme of the body as a prison, exactly what you're
trying to avoid. So long as the spirit remains trapped in
the flesh it's a prisoner of the archons, who do their best to
keep it chained there.
-- Catawumpus |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
|
