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 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:55 am Post subject: Son of Who? |
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By - Yusuf Estes
Does the belief in Jesus, peace be upon him, as a ‘son of God’ really
make sense?
What exactly does 'son of God' mean?
Can true salvation from God, be the punishment of someone else who is
innocent from any of these crimes, to be punished as though he were
guilty?
Does God need someone to suffer severe punishment, even though they
are trying, day after day.
Did Jesus, peace be upon him, tell the people to take him as a god, or
to worship him?
Let us find the answer to these and other important questions about
the nature of Jesus of Christianity and Islam.
"Look to the Books"
To begin, let us do a sample comparison of the teachings of the Holy
Books of Almighty God.
QURAN OF ISLAM
"Say: Oh my servants who have transgressed against their souls!
Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins, for he
is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Noble Quran 39:53]
"If anyone does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks
Allah’s forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Noble Quran 4:110]
"O you people! Adore your Guardian lord, who created you and those who
came before you that you may become righteous."
[Noble Quran 2:21]
"You will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day,
loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were
their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For
such He has written faith in their hearts and strengthened them with a
spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which
rivers flow, to well therein (forever). Allah will be well pleased
with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is
the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity."
[Noble Quran 58:22]
New Testament of BIBLE
"Why do you call me good? answered Jesus, No-one is good but God
alone!"
[Mark 6:10]
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have
not come to abolish them, but rather to fulfill them. I tell you the
truth, until Heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not
the least stroke of the pen; will by any means disappear from the Law
until all things are accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least
of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called
least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever keeps the commandments and
teaches others to do the same will be called great in the Kingdom of
Heaven."
[Matthew 5:17]
"Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of
heaven, but only he who does the Will of the Father who is in Heaven.
Many will say to me on the day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in
your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many
miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from
me, you evildoers!"
[Matthew 7:21]
Some leaders claimed, “This probably refers to the Mormons or somebody
else. Don’t worry about it.”
"Gabriel says Jesus will be “called the son of God” and he would be
“given the Throne of David” to “rule the House of Jacob forever.”"
[Mark 1:35]
"Enos was the son of Seth, and Seth was the son of Adam, and Adam was
the son of God."
[Luke 3:36]
Note: Adam, not Jesus, is listed in this genealogy of Jesus as the son
of God, not Jesus.
Later on, the priests are asking Jesus, peace be upon him, if he
claims to be the son of God. He tells them in fact, it is they who are
making this claim.
"You say that I am."
Gospel of John contains the greatest number of references to "son of
God"
Jesus, speaking in the third person talked about the "Son of God" in
[John 3:17 - John 5:24 - John 11:4 - John 11:27]
Martha, one of the followers, calls Jesus, peace be upon him, “The
Messiah, the Son of God”
"The Messiah, the Son of God."
[John 20:31]
But no verse makes the exact statement "Jesus is the Son of God and as
such he is divine or God."
QURAN
"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of
Allah anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary was (no
more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on
Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His
Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: It will be better for you: For
Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far exalted is He) above having a
son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough
is Allah as a Disposer of affairs."
[Noble Quran 4:171]
Notice in the Bible, the frequent link between the position of Jesus,
peace be upon him, as the Messiah and the ‘son-ship.’
The term ‘son of god’ can not, in itself, be considered enough to
declare anything unique about Jesus, peace be upon him, as this term
is used for many people throughout the Old and the New Testament.
See above:
[Luke 3:38]
Also, in
[Isaiah 62:8]
refers to the entire house of Israel as being, ‘Sons of God’.
Paul tells us about those who are led by the spirit:
"because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
[Romans 8:14]
The word "Messiah" is one that more particularly seems to represent
the station of the person predicted to appear and lead the people to
the victory over this world.
Oxford Companion of the Bible states Jews prior to Jesus, peace be
upon him, hoped for a prophesied ruler, reigning with everlasting
justice, peace and security for the "Sons of Israel."
BIBLE
"A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch
will bear fruit. The spirit of the Lord will be on him - the Spirit of
wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the
Spirit of Knowledge and of the fear of the Lord - and he will delight
in the fear of the Lord."
[Isaiah 11:1-5]
"The days are coming, declares the Lord, When I will fulfill the
gracious promise I made to the house of Israel and to the house of
Judah. In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch
sprout from David’s line; he will do what is just and right in the
land. In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in
safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The Lord Our
Righteousness. For this is what the Lord says: David will never fail
to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, nor will
the priests, who are Levites, ever fail to have a man to stand before
me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offering and to
present sacrifices."
[Jeremiah 33:14-20]
"My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one
shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees.
The will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where
your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s
children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their
prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them, it will be
an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their
numbers and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling
place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my
people. Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy,
when my sanctuary is among them forever."
[Ezekiel 37:24-28]
"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the rules staff from
between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience
of the nations is his."
[Genesis 49:10]
"I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come
out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the
foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth. Edom will be
conquered; Seir, his enemy, will conquered, but Israel will grow
strong. A ruler will come out of Jacob and destroy the survivors of
the city."
[Numbers 24:17]
God Incarnate? NOT HERE
BIBLE
Nathan the prophet (son of Solomon) said:
"The Lord declares to you that the Lord Himself will establish a house
for you: When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I
will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your
own body, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will
build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his
kingdom forever. I will be his father and he will be my son."
(New Testament book of Hebrews stops here)
Samuel continues:
"When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with
floggings inflicted by men. But my love will never be taken away from
him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you."
[2 Samuel 7:12-15]
"You are my Son; today I have begotten you."
[Hebrews 1:5]
Does this support the case the doctrine that Jesus, peace be upon him,
is the "begotten Son of God?"
Old Testament BIBLE
David is stating what God has proclaimed regarding David’s
relationship to God
"I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: he said to me, you are my
Son; this day have I begotten you."
[Psalms 2:7]
Note: The New International Version says the verse could be translated
either as "become your Father" or as "begotten you" into English or
Greek.
New Testament BIBLE
"He will be called the Son of God."
[Mark 1:35]
Note: This does not state he "is" the son, but rather, he will be
"called" the son of God.
Or was he the "one anointed to preach Good News to the poor."
prophesied by Isaiah, and the Messiah proclaimed by Gabriel, the
followers of Jesus, peace be upon him, Jesus, himself and the remained
of the New Testament, he evidently would not be God.
New Testament BIBLE
"I tell you the truth", Jesus answered, "before Abraham was, I am!"
[John 8:58]
"I am" is the term used to identify God to Moses, peace be upon him.
New Testament BIBLE
" For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, that
whoever believed in him should not perish but have everlasting life."
[John 3:16]
This does not actually define Jesus, peace be upon him, as God, or as
the Messiah or as a Prophet.
Note: This verse was actually modified by Jerome in the 4th century.
ARIUS (Early history of the Church) a popular leader from Alexandria,
Egypt.
He argued, Jesus, peace be upon him, was created and not ‘begotten.’
He was charged with heresy and his followers were horribly oppressed
by the Church.
After the matter was ‘decided’ and ‘confirmed’ by the Council of Nicea
in 325 A.D. and in an effort to consolidate both beliefs, Jerome
altered the original version of the Gospel of John 3:16 by changing
the word ‘monogenes’ (unique) and substituted the word ‘ingenious’
meaning ‘only begotten.’
What other ‘interpretations’ did the early Church Fathers invent to
satisfy their claims of the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him?
Good question.
New Testament BIBLE
"But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the
miracles that you may learn and understand that the Father is in me,
and I in the Father."
[John 10:38]
"Don’t you know that I am in the Father and that the Father is in me?
The words that I say to you are not my own. Rather, it is the Father,
living in me who is doing this work."
[John 14:10]
But further reading in the very same chapter:
"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in
me, and I am in you."
[John 14:20]
So how does he live in his disciples and how do they live in him? And
if so, are they also, sons of God or Gods?
Another good question.
"But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in
him. This is how we know we are in Him. Whoever claims to live in Him
must walk as Jesus did."
[1st John 2:5-6]
(This is an epistle [letter] written by another ‘John,’ not John the
Gospel er nor John the Baptist)
Note: This indicates, living ‘in God’ means, ‘Obeying God’
commandments and following the Way of Jesus, peace be upon him.
Twice in the New Testament, Jesus, peace be upon him, tells his
followers how to pray saying, "When you pray, say this..."
And the words are very clear, God’s Will be done on earth as it is in
Heaven.
BIBLE
"I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as
we are one; I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete
unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even
as you have loved me."
[John 17:22-23]
The word used throughout chapter 10 and 17, for unity or one was the
same, ‘heis’ meaning the number one. There is another word ‘hen’ which
means a unity of essence. However, ‘hen’ is nowhere to be found in
these chapters.
Note: Conclusion is this is a prayer from Jesus, peace be upon him, to
God that all of his followers would have the same relationship that he
(Jesus) had.
Understanding the word ‘one’ meanings understanding the way in which
it is being used. For example a man and a woman become ‘one’ when they
marry; someone might say, ‘One hopes for success’ or ‘We are one in
agreement.’
Jesus, peace be upon him, is supposed to have said,
"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
In the very part of the Bible we find the verse wherein Jesus, peace
be upon him, tells his followers, if they accepted a little child,
then they also accepted Jesus, peace be upon him. Naturally, he did
not mean the child was God or that he was a child.
Christians are taught early in life, by doing good deeds and service
for others, they are in fact allowing others to see Jesus in them.
Why do we hold so tight to doctrines, even after realizing the
incorrectness and false teachings?
Yet another good question
The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus, peace be upon him, is a man,
born of a woman without any father, strengthened by a Spirit from God
(Gabriel), sent by God to teach the Children of Israel the true
meaning of belief and proper actions (following the commandments) that
God would accept from them and as such, their ‘road to salvation.’
One more time:
BIBLE
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God. He was with God at the beginning."
[John 1:1]
Jesus, peace be upon him, was the very "Word of God".
QURAN
"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of
Allah anything but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no
more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on
Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him; so believe in Allah and His
Messengers. Say not ‘trinity’: desist."
[Noble Quran 4:171]
It is difficult for us to admit that we have been deceived for so many
years by some many people, some of them very near and dear to us. The
truth is, ‘Someone has been lying to us’ - on purpose.
It is also difficult to consider the consequences of loosing faith in
the doctrine of the Church, out of fear of loosing faith in God
altogether.
But there is wonderful hope, Grace, Mercy and Salvation for those who
come to the correct belief and obey the commandments.
Wisdom or Word?
Oxford Companion to the Bible
The words “wisdom” and ‘word’ were synonymous (exactly the same words)
in Jewish thought at the time of Jesus.
Old Testament BIBLE
"The lord brought me forth at the beginning of his work before his
deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning before
the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when
there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were
settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made
the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. I was there
when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on
the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed
securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out
the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at his side."
[Proverbs 8:22-30]
"By Wisdom the Lord laid the earth’s foundations, by understanding he
set the heavens in place; by his knowledge the deeps were divided, and
the clouds let drop the dew."
[Proverbs 3:19]
APOCRYPHA (hidden books of the Bible)
Wisdom I and Wisdom II
Sirach (also called: “Ecclesiasticus”) written by Jesus ben Sira, a
devout Jew of Jerusalem, 200 years before Christ.
These texts were a part of the Bible until the time of the Calvinists
and the Protestant Reformation (hence the word - protest).
Scrolls found at Wadi Qumran and Masada confirm these were always a
part of the ancient version of the Bible, but obviously not something
Protestants wanted anything to do with.
Wisdom states:
"Wisdom praises herself, and tells of her glory in the midst of her
people. In the assembly of the Most High she opens her mouth, and in
the presence of his hosts she tells of her glory: ‘I came forth from
the mouth of the Most High and covered the earth like a mist. I dwelt
in the highest heavens, and my throne was in a pillar of a cloud.
Alone I compassed the vault of heaven and traversed the depths of the
abyss. Over waves of the sea, over all the earth, and over every
people and nation I have held sway. Among all these I sought a resting
place; in whose territory should I abide? Then the Creator of all
things gave me a command, and my Creator chose the place for my tent.
He said, ‘Make your dwelling in Jacob, and in Israel, receive your
inheritance.’ Before the ages, in the beginning he created me, and for
all the ages I shall not cease to be. In the holy tent I ministered
before him, and so I was established in Zion. Thus in the beloved city
he gave me a resting place, and in Jerusalem was my domain. I took
root in an honored people, in the portion of the Lord his heritage."
[Sirach 24:1-12]
"For she is a breath of the power of God, and a pure emanation of the
glory of the Almighty; therefore nothing evil gains entrance into her.
For she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the
working of God, and an image of His goodness. Although she is but one,
she can do all things, and while remaining in herself, she renews all
things; in every generation she passes into holy souls and makes them
friends of God, and prophets."
[Wisdom of Solomon 7:25-27]
Did the beginning of the Gospel of John indicate John believed the
Spirit was sent by God to Jesus, peace be upon him, that it was the
Spirit of Wisdom, Spirit of Prophecy, sent to all the prophets, with
the same commandments and wisdom?
Could the Spirit of Wisdom be with God since creation? Or perhaps the
Spirit was the ‘Word of God’ that was uttered or breathed by God in
the Beginning and then continued along with God in the rest of
Creation?
BIBLE APOCRAPHA
"For wisdom, the Fashioner of all things, taught me."
[Wisdom of Solomon 7:22]
Could the Spirit of Wisdom be the Holy Spirit that spoke to Mary about
having her baby? And the same Holy Spirit that descending upon him at
this baptism?
BIBLE
"Then John gave this testimony: ‘I saw the Spirit come down from
heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except
that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on
whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize
with the Holy Spirit’"
[John 1:32]
All of this confirms without doubt the writers of the Old Testament
and the New Testament were definitely on the lookout for a “Messiah”
or “chosen leader of the way to salvation in this life and the next
life.”
The word in Hebrew for the ‘chosen one’ or ‘anointed one’ or
‘appointed one’ is ‘Messiah.’
The word in Koine Greek for ‘Messiah’ is ‘Christos’ (became ‘Christ’).
The word in Arabic for it is “Meshiha”
Did Jesus, peace be upon him, ask people to pray to him, or to pray
with him, to the God who sent him?
Did Jesus, peace be upon him, claim to be God?
Can the term "son of God" in English really present the meaning
intended by the writers of the Bible?
Now let us compare with compassion and wisdom in our hearts. Which of
the two concepts make the most sense between Islam and Christianity
when it comes to the subject of Jesus, peace be upon him?
Let us compare the two and see what our wisdom and common sense tell
us:
According to the teachings of Islam in the Quran and the words of the
last prophet, Muhammad, peace be upon him, Jesus, the son of Mary, was
predicted, he came to earth as a baby with a mother but no father, he
did amazing miracles by the permission of Allah, including even
bringing a dead man back to life; he did demonstrate for his followers
the very best of behavior and obedience to the commandments of God.
And according to the Bible he personally prayed and ask God Almighty
to save him from the fate of going to the cross.
The Bible indicates Jesus prayers at Gethsemane went unanswered, even
though he stayed up through the night crying and asking God, "Let this
cup pass from me, even so, Your will be done."
Yet, according to Quran, Almighty God did answer his prayers. He did
not go to the cross, but rather the likeness of him was put on another
person who did go to the cross and Almighty God, caused Jesus, peace
be upon him, to be saved, protected and he is with God and will return
in the Last Days to lead the true believers to victory over the evil
ones.
Some have even speculated the one on the cross was the very one (Judas
Thomas Iscariot) who sold out Jesus and his followers for thirty
pieces of sliver.
http://www.bibleislam.com/son_of_who.php |
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Semper Libèr® •
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:20 am Post subject: Re: Son of Who? |
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| Quote: | "Hamady" <ahmd.mansy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c5a3b872-84fa-48fb-a054-7e4445514083@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
By - Yusuf Estes
Does the belief in Jesus, peace be upon him, as a ‘son of God’ really
make sense?
|
"make sense" ? You mean should we judge God's actions by our own limited
understanding?
| Quote: | What exactly does 'son of God' mean?
|
It means from the family of... or from the father/linage of... Yeshua most
often called himself the Son of Man, denoting that part of him now belonged
to the family of man. It is a reference point to a persons relationship to
his family as taken from his father.
Yeshua was the "unique Son of God" in his manifestation in the flesh, as He
had no Earthy "father"... Yeshua was never referred to as the "only
begotten son", as some incorrectly assume, because of a poor job of
translation of the Greek word monogeneous. Even the Angels are referred to
as the "sons of God".
His relationship to the Godhead is best described in the following.... and
they fit together, in unique fashion, with Yeshua.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made.
[...]
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us
| Quote: | Can true salvation from God, be the punishment of someone else who is
innocent from any of these crimes, to be punished as though he were
guilty?
|
The entire Old Testament is filled with the use of animal sacrifice as
atonement, or payment of a breach of the law.... but animal blood is
insufficient to remove our penalty. The law requires blood to atone for a
breach of the law, and without the shedding of blood there is no remission
of sin. |
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bob young
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Son of Who? |
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Hamady wrote:
| Quote: |
By - Yusuf Estes
Does the belief in Jesus, peace be upon him, as a ‘son of God£ really
make sense?
What exactly does 'son of God' mean?
|
It means quite simply 'I am hooked on superstition, because
my parents were also'
Bob
Humanist, atheist, realist, sentimentalist, Brit.
Man creates gods in his own image;
and then spends the rest of his life
manipulating them to his heart's content.
| Quote: |
Can true salvation from God, be the punishment of someone else who is
innocent from any of these crimes, to be punished as though he were
guilty?
Does God need someone to suffer severe punishment, even though they
are trying, day after day.
Did Jesus, peace be upon him, tell the people to take him as a god, or
to worship him?
Let us find the answer to these and other important questions about
the nature of Jesus of Christianity and Islam.
"Look to the Books"
To begin, let us do a sample comparison of the teachings of the Holy
Books of Almighty God.
QURAN OF ISLAM
"Say: Oh my servants who have transgressed against their souls!
Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins, for he
is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Noble Quran 39:53]
"If anyone does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks
Allah£s forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Noble Quran 4:110]
"O you people! Adore your Guardian lord, who created you and those who
came before you that you may become righteous."
[Noble Quran 2:21]
"You will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day,
loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were
their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For
such He has written faith in their hearts and strengthened them with a
spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which
rivers flow, to well therein (forever). Allah will be well pleased
with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is
the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity."
[Noble Quran 58:22]
New Testament of BIBLE
"Why do you call me good? answered Jesus, No-one is good but God
alone!"
[Mark 6:10]
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have
not come to abolish them, but rather to fulfill them. I tell you the
truth, until Heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not
the least stroke of the pen; will by any means disappear from the Law
until all things are accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least
of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called
least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever keeps the commandments and
teaches others to do the same will be called great in the Kingdom of
Heaven."
[Matthew 5:17]
"Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of
heaven, but only he who does the Will of the Father who is in Heaven.
Many will say to me on the day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in
your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many
miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from
me, you evildoers!"
[Matthew 7:21]
Some leaders claimed, “This probably refers to the Mormons or somebody
else. Don£t worry about it.”
"Gabriel says Jesus will be “called the son of God” and he would be
“given the Throne of David” to “rule the House of Jacob forever.”"
[Mark 1:35]
"Enos was the son of Seth, and Seth was the son of Adam, and Adam was
the son of God."
[Luke 3:36]
Note: Adam, not Jesus, is listed in this genealogy of Jesus as the son
of God, not Jesus.
Later on, the priests are asking Jesus, peace be upon him, if he
claims to be the son of God. He tells them in fact, it is they who are
making this claim.
"You say that I am."
Gospel of John contains the greatest number of references to "son of
God"
Jesus, speaking in the third person talked about the "Son of God" in
[John 3:17 - John 5:24 - John 11:4 - John 11:27]
Martha, one of the followers, calls Jesus, peace be upon him, “The
Messiah, the Son of God”
"The Messiah, the Son of God."
[John 20:31]
But no verse makes the exact statement "Jesus is the Son of God and as
such he is divine or God."
QURAN
"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of
Allah anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary was (no
more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on
Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His
Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: It will be better for you: For
Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far exalted is He) above having a
son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough
is Allah as a Disposer of affairs."
[Noble Quran 4:171]
Notice in the Bible, the frequent link between the position of Jesus,
peace be upon him, as the Messiah and the ‘son-ship.£
The term ‘son of god£ can not, in itself, be considered enough to
declare anything unique about Jesus, peace be upon him, as this term
is used for many people throughout the Old and the New Testament.
See above:
[Luke 3:38]
Also, in
[Isaiah 62:8]
refers to the entire house of Israel as being, ‘Sons of God£.
Paul tells us about those who are led by the spirit:
"because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
[Romans 8:14]
The word "Messiah" is one that more particularly seems to represent
the station of the person predicted to appear and lead the people to
the victory over this world.
Oxford Companion of the Bible states Jews prior to Jesus, peace be
upon him, hoped for a prophesied ruler, reigning with everlasting
justice, peace and security for the "Sons of Israel."
BIBLE
"A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch
will bear fruit. The spirit of the Lord will be on him - the Spirit of
wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the
Spirit of Knowledge and of the fear of the Lord - and he will delight
in the fear of the Lord."
[Isaiah 11:1-5]
"The days are coming, declares the Lord, When I will fulfill the
gracious promise I made to the house of Israel and to the house of
Judah. In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch
sprout from David£s line; he will do what is just and right in the
land. In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in
safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The Lord Our
Righteousness. For this is what the Lord says: David will never fail
to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, nor will
the priests, who are Levites, ever fail to have a man to stand before
me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offering and to
present sacrifices."
[Jeremiah 33:14-20]
"My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one
shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees.
The will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where
your fathers lived. They and their children and their children£s
children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their
prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them, it will be
an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their
numbers and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling
place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my
people. Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy,
when my sanctuary is among them forever."
[Ezekiel 37:24-28]
"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the rules staff from
between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience
of the nations is his."
[Genesis 49:10]
"I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come
out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the
foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth. Edom will be
conquered; Seir, his enemy, will conquered, but Israel will grow
strong. A ruler will come out of Jacob and destroy the survivors of
the city."
[Numbers 24:17]
God Incarnate? NOT HERE
BIBLE
Nathan the prophet (son of Solomon) said:
"The Lord declares to you that the Lord Himself will establish a house
for you: When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I
will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your
own body, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will
build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his
kingdom forever. I will be his father and he will be my son."
(New Testament book of Hebrews stops here)
Samuel continues:
"When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with
floggings inflicted by men. But my love will never be taken away from
him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you."
[2 Samuel 7:12-15]
"You are my Son; today I have begotten you."
[Hebrews 1:5]
Does this support the case the doctrine that Jesus, peace be upon him,
is the "begotten Son of God?"
Old Testament BIBLE
David is stating what God has proclaimed regarding David£s
relationship to God
"I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: he said to me, you are my
Son; this day have I begotten you."
[Psalms 2:7]
Note: The New International Version says the verse could be translated
either as "become your Father" or as "begotten you" into English or
Greek.
New Testament BIBLE
"He will be called the Son of God."
[Mark 1:35]
Note: This does not state he "is" the son, but rather, he will be
"called" the son of God.
Or was he the "one anointed to preach Good News to the poor."
prophesied by Isaiah, and the Messiah proclaimed by Gabriel, the
followers of Jesus, peace be upon him, Jesus, himself and the remained
of the New Testament, he evidently would not be God.
New Testament BIBLE
"I tell you the truth", Jesus answered, "before Abraham was, I am!"
[John 8:58]
"I am" is the term used to identify God to Moses, peace be upon him.
New Testament BIBLE
" For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, that
whoever believed in him should not perish bu t have everlasting life."
[John 3:16]
This does not actually define Jesus, peace be upon him, as God, or as
the Messiah or as a Prophet.
Note: This verse was actually modified by Jerome in the 4th century.
ARIUS (Early history of the Church) a popular leader from Alexandria,
Egypt.
He argued, Jesus, peace be upon him, was created and not ‘begotten.£
He was charged with heresy and his followers were horribly oppressed
by the Church.
After the matter was ‘decided£ and ‘confirmed£ by the Council of Nicea
in 325 A.D. and in an effort to consolidate both beliefs, Jerome
altered the original version of the Gospel of John 3:16 by changing
the word ‘monogenes£ (unique) and substituted the word ‘ingenious£
meaning ‘only begotten.£
What other ‘interpretations£ did the early Church Fathers invent to
satisfy their claims of the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him?
Good question.
New Testament BIBLE
"But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the
miracles that you may learn and understand that the Father is in me,
and I in the Father."
[John 10:38]
"Don£t you know that I am in the Father and that the Father is in me?
The words that I say to you are not my own. Rather, it is the Father,
living in me who is doing this work."
[John 14:10]
But further reading in the very same chapter:
"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in
me, and I am in you."
[John 14:20]
So how does he live in his disciples and how do they live in him? And
if so, are they also, sons of God or Gods?
Another good question.
"But if anyone obeys his word, God£s love is truly made complete in
him. This is how we know we are in Him. Whoever claims to live in Him
must walk as Jesus did."
[1st John 2:5-6]
(This is an epistle [letter] written by another ‘John,£ not John the
Gospel er nor John the Baptist)
Note: This indicates, living ‘in God£ means, ‘Obeying God£
commandments and following the Way of Jesus, peace be upon him.
Twice in the New Testament, Jesus, peace be upon him, tells his
followers how to pray saying, "When you pray, say this..."
And the words are very clear, God£s Will be done on earth as it is in
Heaven.
BIBLE
"I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as
we are one; I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete
unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even
as you have loved me."
[John 17:22-23]
The word used throughout chapter 10 and 17, for unity or one was the
same, ‘heis£ meaning the number one. There is another word ‘hen£ which
means a unity of essence. However, ‘hen£ is nowhere to be found in
these chapters.
Note: Conclusion is this is a prayer from Jesus, peace be upon him, to
God that all of his followers would have the same relationship that he
(Jesus) had.
Understanding the word ‘one£ meanings understanding the way in which
it is being used. For example a man and a woman become ‘one£ when they
marry; someone might say, ‘One hopes for success£ or ‘We are one in
agreement.£
Jesus, peace be upon him, is supposed to have said,
"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
In the very part of the Bible we find the verse wherein Jesus, peace
be upon him, tells his followers, if they accepted a little child,
then they also accepted Jesus, peace be upon him. Naturally, he did
not mean the child was God or that he was a child.
Christians are taught early in life, by doing good deeds and service
for others, they are in fact allowing others to see Jesus in them.
Why do we hold so tight to doctrines, even after realizing the
incorrectness and false teachings?
Yet another good question
The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus, peace be upon him, is a man,
born of a woman without any father, strengthened by a Spirit from God
(Gabriel), sent by God to teach the Children of Israel the true
meaning of belief and proper actions (following the commandments) that
God would accept from them and as such, their ‘road to salvation.£
One more time:
BIBLE
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God. He was with God at the beginning."
[John 1:1]
Jesus, peace be upon him, was the very "Word of God".
QURAN
"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of
Allah anything but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no
more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on
Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him; so believe in Allah and His
Messengers. Say not ‘trinity£: desist."
[Noble Quran 4:171]
It is difficult for us to admit that we have been deceived for so many
years by some many people, some of them very near and dear to us. The
truth is, ‘Someone has been lying to us£ - on purpose.
It is also difficult to consider the consequences of loosing faith in
the doctrine of the Church, out of fear of loosing faith in God
altogether.
But there is wonderful hope, Grace, Mercy and Salvation for those who
come to the correct belief and obey the commandments.
Wisdom or Word?
Oxford Companion to the Bible
The words “wisdom” and ‘word£ were synonymous (exactly the same words)
in Jewish thought at the time of Jesus.
Old Testament BIBLE
"The lord brought me forth at the beginning of his work before his
deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning before
the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when
there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were
settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made
the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. I was there
when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on
the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed
securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out
the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at his side."
[Proverbs 8:22-30]
"By Wisdom the Lord laid the earth£s foundations, by understanding he
set the heavens in place; by his knowledge the deeps were divided, and
the clouds let drop the dew."
[Proverbs 3:19]
APOCRYPHA (hidden books of the Bible)
Wisdom I and Wisdom II
Sirach (also called: “Ecclesiasticus”) written by Jesus ben Sira, a
devout Jew of Jerusalem, 200 years before Christ.
These texts were a part of the Bible until the time of the Calvinists
and the Protestant Reformation (hence the word - protest).
Scrolls found at Wadi Qumran and Masada confirm these were always a
part of the ancient version of the Bible, but obviously not something
Protestants wanted anything to do with.
Wisdom states:
"Wisdom praises herself, and tells of her glory in the midst of her
people. In the assembly of the Most High she opens her mouth, and in
the presence of his hosts she tells of her glory: ‘I came forth from
the mouth of the Most High and covered the earth like a mist. I dwelt
in the highest heavens, and my throne was in a pillar of a cloud.
Alone I compassed the vault of heaven and traversed the depths of the
abyss. Over waves of the sea, over all the earth, and over every
people and nation I have held sway. Among all these I sought a resting
place; in whose territory should I abide? Then the Creator of all
things gave me a command, and my Creator chose the place for my tent.
He said, ‘Make your dwelling in Jacob, and in Israel, receive your
inheritance.£ Before the ages, in the beginning he created me, and for
all the ages I shall not cease to be. In the holy tent I ministered
before him, and so I was established in Zion. Thus in the beloved city
he gave me a resting place, and in Jerusalem was my domain. I took
root in an honored people, in the portion of the Lord his heritage."
[Sirach 24:1-12]
"For she is a breath of the power of God, and a pure emanation of the
glory of the Almighty; therefore nothing evil gains entrance into her.
For she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the
working of God, and an image of His goodness. Although she is but one,
she can do all things, and while remaining in herself, she renews all
things; in every generation she passes into holy souls and makes them
friends of God, and prophets."
[Wisdom of Solomon 7:25-27]
Did the beginning of the Gospel of John indicate John believed the
Spirit was sent by God to Jesus, peace be upon him, that it was the
Spirit of Wisdom, Spirit of Prophecy, sent to all the prophets, with
the same commandments and wisdom?
Could the Spirit of Wisdom be with God since creation? Or perhaps the
Spirit was the ‘Word of God£ that was uttered or breathed by God in
the Beginning and then continued along with God in the rest of
Creation?
BIBLE APOCRAPHA
"For wisdom, the Fashioner of all things, taught me."
[Wisdom of Solomon 7:22]
Could the Spirit of Wisdom be the Holy Spirit that spoke to Mary about
having her baby? And the same Holy Spirit that descending upon him at
this baptism?
BIBLE
"Then John gave this testimony: ‘I saw the Spirit come down from
heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except
that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on
whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize
with the Holy Spirit£"
[John 1:32]
All of this confirms without doubt the writers of the Old Testament
and the New Testament were definitely on the lookout for a “Messiah”
or “chosen leader of the way to salvation in this life and the next
life.”
The word in Hebrew for the ‘chosen one£ or ‘anointed one£ or
‘appointed one£ is ‘Messiah.£
The word in Koine Greek for ‘Messiah£ is ‘Christos£ (became ‘Christ£).
The word in Arabic for it is “Meshiha”
Did Jesus, peace be upon him, ask people to pray to him, o to pray
with him, to the God who sent him?
Did Jesus, peace be upon him, claim to be God?
Can the term "son of God" in English really present the meaning
intended by the writers of the Bible?
Now let us compare with compassion and wisdom in our hearts. Which of
the two concepts make the most sense between Islam and Christianity
when it comes to the subject of Jesus, peace be upon him?
Let us compare the two and see what our wisdom and common sense tell
us:
According to the teachings of Islam in the Quran and the words of the
last prophet, Muhammad, peace be upon him, Jesus, the son of Mary, was
predicted, he came to earth as a baby with a mother but no father, he
did amazing miracles by the permission of Allah, including even
bringing a dead man back to life; he did demonstrate for his followers
the very best of behavior and obedience to the commandments of God.
And according to the Bible he personally prayed and ask God Almighty
to save him from the fate of going to the cross.
The Bible indicates Jesus prayers at Gethsemane went unanswered, even
though he stayed up through the night crying and asking God, "Let this
cup pass from me, even so, Your will be done."
Yet, according to Quran, Almighty God did answer his prayers. He did
not go to the cross, but rather the likeness of him was put on another
person who did go to the cross and Almighty God, caused Jesus, peace
be upon him, to be saved, protected and he is with God and will return
in the Last Days to lead the true believers to victory over the evil
ones.
Some have even speculated the one on the cross was the very one (Judas
Thomas Iscariot) who sold out Jesus and his followers for thirty
pieces of sliver.
http://www.bibleislam.com/son_of_who.php
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duke
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Son of Who? |
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On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:55:38 -0700 (PDT), Hamady <ahmd.mansy@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Does the belief in Jesus, peace be upon him, as a ‘son of God’ really
make sense?
What exactly does 'son of God' mean?
|
An easy way for the ancient biblical mind to understand that "God became man".
| Quote: | Can true salvation from God, be the punishment of someone else who is
innocent from any of these crimes, to be punished as though he were
guilty?
|
Romans 5:12-14 (New International Version)
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through
sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the
law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when
there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time
of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam,
who was a pattern of the one to come.
| Quote: | Does God need someone to suffer severe punishment, even though they
are trying, day after day.
|
God needs for "someone" to love one another as he loves us. John 13:34.
| Quote: | Did Jesus, peace be upon him, tell the people to take him as a god, or
to worship him?
|
Not a chance.
| Quote: | Let us find the answer to these and other important questions about
the nature of Jesus of Christianity and Islam.
|
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
***** |
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john w
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: Re: Son of Who? |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:55:38 -0700 (PDT), Hamady
<ahmd.mansy@gmail.com> wrote:
© 2008 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
| Quote: | By - Yusuf Estes
Does the belief in Jesus, peace be upon him, as a ‘son of God’ really
make sense?
|
The belief by Christians as Jesus as The Son of God (not "A son of
God), makes total sense in the total context of the Bible.
Prophets of the Old Testament told us that the Messiah (Jesus
Christ) would be BOTH God the Father AND God the Son, "Prince of
Peace", The Mighty God. (since there's only ONE GOD, The Mighty God
would have to be Him)
Jesus was called "God" on several occasions. He didn't reject the
title.
| Quote: |
What exactly does 'son of God' mean?
|
It means He was / is God Almighty in human flesh.
(Colossians 2)
It means (Colossians 1) that when we SEE God (who is invisible), we
are seeing the Son of God (He is the visible form of God who is
invisible)
| Quote: |
Can true salvation from God, be the punishment of someone else who is
innocent from any of these crimes, to be punished as though he were
guilty?
|
^ ^ ^^ I have no idea what you just said.
| Quote: |
Does God need someone to suffer severe punishment, even though they
are trying, day after day.
|
Suffering severe punishment is not the end for those who are
SINCERELY trying, "day after day."
Suffering severe punishment is the end for those who hear about Jesus
Christ, and who REJECT Him as Savior and Lord (much like you are
apparently doing)
| Quote: |
Did Jesus, peace be upon him, tell the people to take him as a god, or
to worship him?
|
No. Jesus Christ said He is God. (not "a god.") He said "No man
comes to the Father, except through / by Me."
| Quote: |
Let us find the answer to these and other important questions about
the nature of Jesus of Christianity and Islam.
"Look to the Books"
To begin, let us do a sample comparison of the teachings of the Holy
Books of Almighty God.
QURAN OF ISLAM
"Say: Oh my servants who have transgressed against their souls!
Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins, for he
is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Noble Quran 39:53]
"If anyone does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks
Allah’s forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Noble Quran 4:110]
"O you people! Adore your Guardian lord, who created you and those who
came before you that you may become righteous."
[Noble Quran 2:21]
"You will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day,
loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were
their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For
such He has written faith in their hearts and strengthened them with a
spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which
rivers flow, to well therein (forever). Allah will be well pleased
with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is
the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity."
[Noble Quran 58:22]
New Testament of BIBLE
"Why do you call me good? answered Jesus, No-one is good but God
alone!"
[Mark 6:10]
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have
not come to abolish them, but rather to fulfill them. I tell you the
truth, until Heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not
the least stroke of the pen; will by any means disappear from the Law
until all things are accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least
of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called
least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever keeps the commandments and
teaches others to do the same will be called great in the Kingdom of
Heaven."
[Matthew 5:17]
"Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of
heaven, but only he who does the Will of the Father who is in Heaven.
Many will say to me on the day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in
your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many
miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from
me, you evildoers!"
[Matthew 7:21]
Some leaders claimed, “This probably refers to the Mormons or somebody
else. Don’t worry about it.”
"Gabriel says Jesus will be “called the son of God” and he would be
“given the Throne of David” to “rule the House of Jacob forever.”"
[Mark 1:35]
"Enos was the son of Seth, and Seth was the son of Adam, and Adam was
the son of God."
[Luke 3:36]
Note: Adam, not Jesus, is listed in this genealogy of Jesus as the son
of God, not Jesus.
Later on, the priests are asking Jesus, peace be upon him, if he
claims to be the son of God. He tells them in fact, it is they who are
making this claim.
"You say that I am."
Gospel of John contains the greatest number of references to "son of
God"
Jesus, speaking in the third person talked about the "Son of God" in
[John 3:17 - John 5:24 - John 11:4 - John 11:27]
Martha, one of the followers, calls Jesus, peace be upon him, “The
Messiah, the Son of God”
"The Messiah, the Son of God."
[John 20:31]
But no verse makes the exact statement "Jesus is the Son of God and as
such he is divine or God."
QURAN
"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of
Allah anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary was (no
more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on
Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His
Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: It will be better for you: For
Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far exalted is He) above having a
son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough
is Allah as a Disposer of affairs."
[Noble Quran 4:171]
Notice in the Bible, the frequent link between the position of Jesus,
peace be upon him, as the Messiah and the ‘son-ship.’
The term ‘son of god’ can not, in itself, be considered enough to
declare anything unique about Jesus, peace be upon him, as this term
is used for many people throughout the Old and the New Testament.
See above:
[Luke 3:38]
Also, in
[Isaiah 62:8]
refers to the entire house of Israel as being, ‘Sons of God’.
Paul tells us about those who are led by the spirit:
"because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
[Romans 8:14]
The word "Messiah" is one that more particularly seems to represent
the station of the person predicted to appear and lead the people to
the victory over this world.
Oxford Companion of the Bible states Jews prior to Jesus, peace be
upon him, hoped for a prophesied ruler, reigning with everlasting
justice, peace and security for the "Sons of Israel."
BIBLE
"A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch
will bear fruit. The spirit of the Lord will be on him - the Spirit of
wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the
Spirit of Knowledge and of the fear of the Lord - and he will delight
in the fear of the Lord."
[Isaiah 11:1-5]
"The days are coming, declares the Lord, When I will fulfill the
gracious promise I made to the house of Israel and to the house of
Judah. In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch
sprout from David’s line; he will do what is just and right in the
land. In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in
safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The Lord Our
Righteousness. For this is what the Lord says: David will never fail
to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, nor will
the priests, who are Levites, ever fail to have a man to stand before
me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offering and to
present sacrifices."
[Jeremiah 33:14-20]
"My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one
shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees.
The will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where
your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s
children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their
prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them, it will be
an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their
numbers and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling
place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my
people. Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy,
when my sanctuary is among them forever."
[Ezekiel 37:24-28]
"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the rules staff from
between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience
of the nations is his."
[Genesis 49:10]
"I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come
out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the
foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth. Edom will be
conquered; Seir, his enemy, will conquered, but Israel will grow
strong. A ruler will come out of Jacob and destroy the survivors of
the city."
[Numbers 24:17]
God Incarnate? NOT HERE
BIBLE
Nathan the prophet (son of Solomon) said:
"The Lord declares to you that the Lord Himself will establish a house
for you: When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I
will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your
own body, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will
build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his
kingdom forever. I will be his father and he will be my son."
(New Testament book of Hebrews stops here)
Samuel continues:
"When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with
floggings inflicted by men. But my love will never be taken away from
him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you."
[2 Samuel 7:12-15]
"You are my Son; today I have begotten you."
[Hebrews 1:5]
Does this support the case the doctrine that Jesus, peace be upon him,
is the "begotten Son of God?"
Old Testament BIBLE
David is stating what God has proclaimed regarding David’s
relationship to God
"I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: he said to me, you are my
Son; this day have I begotten you."
[Psalms 2:7]
Note: The New International Version says the verse could be translated
either as "become your Father" or as "begotten you" into English or
Greek.
New Testament BIBLE
"He will be called the Son of God."
[Mark 1:35]
Note: This does not state he "is" the son, but rather, he will be
"called" the son of God.
Or was he the "one anointed to preach Good News to the poor."
prophesied by Isaiah, and the Messiah proclaimed by Gabriel, the
followers of Jesus, peace be upon him, Jesus, himself and the remained
of the New Testament, he evidently would not be God.
New Testament BIBLE
"I tell you the truth", Jesus answered, "before Abraham was, I am!"
[John 8:58]
"I am" is the term used to identify God to Moses, peace be upon him.
New Testament BIBLE
" For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, that
whoever believed in him should not perish but have everlasting life."
[John 3:16]
This does not actually define Jesus, peace be upon him, as God, or as
the Messiah or as a Prophet.
Note: This verse was actually modified by Jerome in the 4th century.
ARIUS (Early history of the Church) a popular leader from Alexandria,
Egypt.
He argued, Jesus, peace be upon him, was created and not ‘begotten.’
He was charged with heresy and his followers were horribly oppressed
by the Church.
After the matter was ‘decided’ and ‘confirmed’ by the Council of Nicea
in 325 A.D. and in an effort to consolidate both beliefs, Jerome
altered the original version of the Gospel of John 3:16 by changing
the word ‘monogenes’ (unique) and substituted the word ‘ingenious’
meaning ‘only begotten.’
What other ‘interpretations’ did the early Church Fathers invent to
satisfy their claims of the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him?
Good question.
New Testament BIBLE
"But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the
miracles that you may learn and understand that the Father is in me,
and I in the Father."
[John 10:38]
"Don’t you know that I am in the Father and that the Father is in me?
The words that I say to you are not my own. Rather, it is the Father,
living in me who is doing this work."
[John 14:10]
But further reading in the very same chapter:
"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in
me, and I am in you."
[John 14:20]
So how does he live in his disciples and how do they live in him? And
if so, are they also, sons of God or Gods?
Another good question.
"But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in
him. This is how we know we are in Him. Whoever claims to live in Him
must walk as Jesus did."
[1st John 2:5-6]
(This is an epistle [letter] written by another ‘John,’ not John the
Gospel er nor John the Baptist)
Note: This indicates, living ‘in God’ means, ‘Obeying God’
commandments and following the Way of Jesus, peace be upon him.
Twice in the New Testament, Jesus, peace be upon him, tells his
followers how to pray saying, "When you pray, say this..."
And the words are very clear, God’s Will be done on earth as it is in
Heaven.
BIBLE
"I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as
we are one; I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete
unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even
as you have loved me."
[John 17:22-23]
The word used throughout chapter 10 and 17, for unity or one was the
same, ‘heis’ meaning the number one. There is another word ‘hen’ which
means a unity of essence. However, ‘hen’ is nowhere to be found in
these chapters.
Note: Conclusion is this is a prayer from Jesus, peace be upon him, to
God that all of his followers would have the same relationship that he
(Jesus) had.
Understanding the word ‘one’ meanings understanding the way in which
it is being used. For example a man and a woman become ‘one’ when they
marry; someone might say, ‘One hopes for success’ or ‘We are one in
agreement.’
Jesus, peace be upon him, is supposed to have said,
"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
In the very part of the Bible we find the verse wherein Jesus, peace
be upon him, tells his followers, if they accepted a little child,
then they also accepted Jesus, peace be upon him. Naturally, he did
not mean the child was God or that he was a child.
Christians are taught early in life, by doing good deeds and service
for others, they are in fact allowing others to see Jesus in them.
Why do we hold so tight to doctrines, even after realizing the
incorrectness and false teachings?
Yet another good question
The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus, peace be upon him, is a man,
born of a woman without any father, strengthened by a Spirit from God
(Gabriel), sent by God to teach the Children of Israel the true
meaning of belief and proper actions (following the commandments) that
God would accept from them and as such, their ‘road to salvation.’
One more time:
BIBLE
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God. He was with God at the beginning."
[John 1:1]
Jesus, peace be upon him, was the very "Word of God".
QURAN
"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of
Allah anything but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no
more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on
Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him; so believe in Allah and His
Messengers. Say not ‘trinity’: desist."
[Noble Quran 4:171]
It is difficult for us to admit that we have been deceived for so many
years by some many people, some of them very near and dear to us. The
truth is, ‘Someone has been lying to us’ - on purpose.
It is also difficult to consider the consequences of loosing faith in
the doctrine of the Church, out of fear of loosing faith in God
altogether.
But there is wonderful hope, Grace, Mercy and Salvation for those who
come to the correct belief and obey the commandments.
Wisdom or Word?
Oxford Companion to the Bible
The words “wisdom” and ‘word’ were synonymous (exactly the same words)
in Jewish thought at the time of Jesus.
Old Testament BIBLE
"The lord brought me forth at the beginning of his work before his
deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning before
the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when
there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were
settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made
the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. I was there
when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on
the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed
securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out
the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at his side."
[Proverbs 8:22-30]
"By Wisdom the Lord laid the earth’s foundations, by understanding he
set the heavens in place; by his knowledge the deeps were divided, and
the clouds let drop the dew."
[Proverbs 3:19]
APOCRYPHA (hidden books of the Bible)
Wisdom I and Wisdom II
Sirach (also called: “Ecclesiasticus”) written by Jesus ben Sira, a
devout Jew of Jerusalem, 200 years before Christ.
These texts were a part of the Bible until the time of the Calvinists
and the Protestant Reformation (hence the word - protest).
Scrolls found at Wadi Qumran and Masada confirm these were always a
part of the ancient version of the Bible, but obviously not something
Protestants wanted anything to do with.
Wisdom states:
"Wisdom praises herself, and tells of her glory in the midst of her
people. In the assembly of the Most High she opens her mouth, and in
the presence of his hosts she tells of her glory: ‘I came forth from
the mouth of the Most High and covered the earth like a mist. I dwelt
in the highest heavens, and my throne was in a pillar of a cloud.
Alone I compassed the vault of heaven and traversed the depths of the
abyss. Over waves of the sea, over all the earth, and over every
people and nation I have held sway. Among all these I sought a resting
place; in whose territory should I abide? Then the Creator of all
things gave me a command, and my Creator chose the place for my tent.
He said, ‘Make your dwelling in Jacob, and in Israel, receive your
inheritance.’ Before the ages, in the beginning he created me, and for
all the ages I shall not cease to be. In the holy tent I ministered
before him, and so I was established in Zion. Thus in the beloved city
he gave me a resting place, and in Jerusalem was my domain. I took
root in an honored people, in the portion of the Lord his heritage."
[Sirach 24:1-12]
"For she is a breath of the power of God, and a pure emanation of the
glory of the Almighty; therefore nothing evil gains entrance into her.
For she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the
working of God, and an image of His goodness. Although she is but one,
she can do all things, and while remaining in herself, she renews all
things; in every generation she passes into holy souls and makes them
friends of God, and prophets."
[Wisdom of Solomon 7:25-27]
Did the beginning of the Gospel of John indicate John believed the
Spirit was sent by God to Jesus, peace be upon him, that it was the
Spirit of Wisdom, Spirit of Prophecy, sent to all the prophets, with
the same commandments and wisdom?
Could the Spirit of Wisdom be with God since creation? Or perhaps the
Spirit was the ‘Word of God’ that was uttered or breathed by God in
the Beginning and then continued along with God in the rest of
Creation?
BIBLE APOCRAPHA
"For wisdom, the Fashioner of all things, taught me."
[Wisdom of Solomon 7:22]
Could the Spirit of Wisdom be the Holy Spirit that spoke to Mary about
having her baby? And the same Holy Spirit that descending upon him at
this baptism?
BIBLE
"Then John gave this testimony: ‘I saw the Spirit come down from
heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except
that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on
whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize
with the Holy Spirit’"
[John 1:32]
All of this confirms without doubt the writers of the Old Testament
and the New Testament were definitely on the lookout for a “Messiah”
or “chosen leader of the way to salvation in this life and the next
life.”
The word in Hebrew for the ‘chosen one’ or ‘anointed one’ or
‘appointed one’ is ‘Messiah.’
The word in Koine Greek for ‘Messiah’ is ‘Christos’ (became ‘Christ’).
The word in Arabic for it is “Meshiha”
Did Jesus, peace be upon him, ask people to pray to him, or to pray
with him, to the God who sent him?
Did Jesus, peace be upon him, claim to be God?
Can the term "son of God" in English really present the meaning
intended by the writers of the Bible?
Now let us compare with compassion and wisdom in our hearts. Which of
the two concepts make the most sense between Islam and Christianity
when it comes to the subject of Jesus, peace be upon him?
Let us compare the two and see what our wisdom and common sense tell
us:
According to the teachings of Islam in the Quran and the words of the
last prophet, Muhammad, peace be upon him, Jesus, the son of Mary, was
predicted, he came to earth as a baby with a mother but no father, he
did amazing miracles by the permission of Allah, including even
bringing a dead man back to life; he did demonstrate for his followers
the very best of behavior and obedience to the commandments of God.
And according to the Bible he personally prayed and ask God Almighty
to save him from the fate of going to the cross.
The Bible indicates Jesus prayers at Gethsemane went unanswered, even
though he stayed up through the night crying and asking God, "Let this
cup pass from me, even so, Your will be done."
Yet, according to Quran, Almighty God did answer his prayers. He did
not go to the cross, but rather the likeness of him was put on another
person who did go to the cross and Almighty God, caused Jesus, peace
be upon him, to be saved, protected and he is with God and will return
in the Last Days to lead the true believers to victory over the evil
ones.
Some have even speculated the one on the cross was the very one (Judas
Thomas Iscariot) who sold out Jesus and his followers for thirty
pieces of sliver.
http://www.bibleislam.com/son_of_who.php |
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walksalone
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Son of Who? |
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john w <j<no>@yahoo.com> news:0basa4pfheodpova4bq4jkun56lgvsnfkh@4ax.com
Reverted to a [for him] standard mode of argumentation, because I say so.
From: john w <j<no>@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: Son of Who?
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:55:12 -0700
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| Quote: | x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:55:38 -0700 (PDT), Hamady
ahmd.mansy@gmail.com> wrote:
© 2008 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
By - Yusuf Estes
Does the belief in Jesus, peace be upon him, as a ‘son of God’ really
make sense?
The belief by Christians as Jesus as The Son of God (not "A son of
God), makes total sense in the total context of the Bible.
|
It makes absolutely no sense in the context of either the Hebrew Bible, or
the Greek Testament which supposedly are based on the Hebrew Bible. Anyone
could be a son or, the son of God depending on their standing within the
community and their observed piousness.
| Quote: | Prophets of the Old Testament told us that the Messiah (Jesus
Christ) would be BOTH God the Father AND God the Son, "Prince of
|
Only if you are willing to rip passages out of context, and pretend they
apply to your missing messiah.
| Quote: | Peace", The Mighty God. (since there's only ONE GOD, The Mighty God
would have to be Him)
|
As usual, your lack of historical knowledge about your mythology, bites you
all over the place. Ancient near Eastern Kings were considered gods. The
passage you are attempting to infer indicates your messiah is inbound
refers to a specific individual, it has nothing to do with your messiah.
It's not even considered messianic by those that understand the Hebrew
Bible. This of course, excludes you. Noticeably so. There are at least
two candidates, where the passage you are attempting to invoke can be used
properly.
| Quote: | Jesus was called "God" on several occasions. He didn't reject the
title.
|
&? If he had been a Jew, he would have no choice but to reject the title.
If on the other hand, he was a Hellenized Jew, who is hell-bent on
Revolution, it would make sense for him to accept the title. This of
course, assumes the individual existed, which is normally done during
conversations of this nature. It's called assumption of the other person's
position for the sake of discussion. A lost cause in your case.
| Quote: |
What exactly does 'son of God' mean?
It means He was / is God Almighty in human flesh.
|
As usual, you haven't a clue.
For those that actually would like to know what the term means and how it
was used by the people that invented the term. As far as Christianity is
concerned:
<http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=964&letter=S&search=son%
20of%20god>
Word wrap should not be a problem with this particular URL.
And recall, this is written with a bias based on Jewish mythology.
| Quote: | (Colossians 2)
It means (Colossians 1) that when we SEE God (who is invisible), we
are seeing the Son of God (He is the visible form of God who is
invisible)
|
It means nothing of the sort, it's an interpolation based on a mythical and
nonexistent Jewish Messiah, as understood by the Greek writers of the Greek
Testament. In other words, it's another false teaching.
| Quote: | Can true salvation from God, be the punishment of someone else who is
innocent from any of these crimes, to be punished as though he were
guilty?
^ ^ ^^ I have no idea what you just said.
|
It is awkward, but it's also the English language and therefore, supposedly
with your education, it would be a cakewalk to understand and respond to.
| Quote: | Does God need someone to suffer severe punishment, even though they
are trying, day after day.
Suffering severe punishment is not the end for those who are
SINCERELY trying, "day after day."
|
It is if they don't match up to the basic requirements, such as actually
repeating and acting as if they are repenting.
| Quote: | Suffering severe punishment is the end for those who hear about Jesus
Christ, and who REJECT Him as Savior and Lord (much like you are
apparently doing)
|
actually, it's reserved for a whole list of people, such as yourself.
Those that are known liars, according to your mythology are southbound and
down without any possible revocation of the sentence.
| Quote: |
Did Jesus, peace be upon him, tell the people to take him as a god, or
to worship him?
No. Jesus Christ said He is God. (not "a god.") He said "No man
comes to the Father, except through / by Me."
|
Which does not make him a god, nor does it make him automatically, a
messiah. As usual you are presuming your conclusions. You presume he
existed based on tenuous and erroneous writings in the Greek Testament.
Writings that are not based in reality, on the Hebrew Bible as they claim
and pretended to be. What we have here, is what we have every time you
post. Other people putting words in the mouth of someone else.
Snip troll bait that Johnny willingly accepted as his due. He does accept
anything that permits him to posture in public. After all, a self-
proclaimed scholars™ of his caliber. Need something to react to convince
themselves they're smart as they think they are.
which wannbe this time Johnny, the fool who should know better but still
insists on publicly verifying that indeed, he is a fool. You really need
to learn discussion, but if you did that, you would never post. Therefore,
Usenet would benefit and you're not going to permit that.
Walks alone, who will never pretended to be a biblical scholar, but does
know how to find the information required to make a coherent argument for
or against most positions, when people like Johnny pretend to be biblical
scholars™. He used so easy to refute, that it's not even fun.
JimBob <jimbob_98...@yahoo.com>
And the reason we claim infallibility is that God is infallible.
Therefore, it is reasonable to believe that God's revelation, the
Bible, which He clearly claims to be from Him in numerous places "Thus
says the Lord" throughout the Old Testament, and Jesus' own words
quoted frequently throughout the New, if God is infallible, His
revelation must also be considered infallible.
john |
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Semper Libèr® .
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: Re: Son of Who? |
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"walksalone" <spamstopper@nerdshack.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9B024919BA6D4walks@62.141.42.83...
| Quote: | john w <j<no>@yahoo.com> news:0basa4pfheodpova4bq4jkun56lgvsnfkh@4ax.com
Reverted to a [for him] standard mode of argumentation, because I say so.
From: john w <j<no>@yahoo.com
Newsgroups:
alt.christnet.evangelical,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.chris
tian.last-days,alt.christnet,alt.bible
Subject: Re: Son of Who?
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:55:12 -0700
Message-ID: <0basa4pfheodpova4bq4jkun56lgvsnfkh@4ax.com
References: <c5a3b872-84fa-48fb-a054-7e4445514083
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On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:55:38 -0700 (PDT), Hamady
ahmd.mansy@gmail.com> wrote:
© 2008 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
By - Yusuf Estes
Does the belief in Jesus, peace be upon him, as a 'son of God' really
make sense?
The belief by Christians as Jesus as The Son of God (not "A son of
God), makes total sense in the total context of the Bible.
It makes absolutely no sense in the context of either the Hebrew Bible, or
the Greek Testament which supposedly are based on the Hebrew Bible.
Anyone
could be a son or, the son of God depending on their standing within |
| |
