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Hamady
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 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:56 am Post subject: Son of Who? |
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By - Yusuf Estes
Does the belief in Jesus, peace be upon him, as a ‘son of God’ really
make sense?
What exactly does 'son of God' mean?
Can true salvation from God, be the punishment of someone else who is
innocent from any of these crimes, to be punished as though he were
guilty?
Does God need someone to suffer severe punishment, even though they
are trying, day after day.
Did Jesus, peace be upon him, tell the people to take him as a god, or
to worship him?
Let us find the answer to these and other important questions about
the nature of Jesus of Christianity and Islam.
"Look to the Books"
To begin, let us do a sample comparison of the teachings of the Holy
Books of Almighty God.
QURAN OF ISLAM
"Say: Oh my servants who have transgressed against their souls!
Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins, for he
is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Noble Quran 39:53]
"If anyone does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks
Allah’s forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Noble Quran 4:110]
"O you people! Adore your Guardian lord, who created you and those who
came before you that you may become righteous."
[Noble Quran 2:21]
"You will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day,
loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were
their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For
such He has written faith in their hearts and strengthened them with a
spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which
rivers flow, to well therein (forever). Allah will be well pleased
with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is
the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity."
[Noble Quran 58:22]
New Testament of BIBLE
"Why do you call me good? answered Jesus, No-one is good but God
alone!"
[Mark 6:10]
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have
not come to abolish them, but rather to fulfill them. I tell you the
truth, until Heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not
the least stroke of the pen; will by any means disappear from the Law
until all things are accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least
of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called
least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever keeps the commandments and
teaches others to do the same will be called great in the Kingdom of
Heaven."
[Matthew 5:17]
"Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of
heaven, but only he who does the Will of the Father who is in Heaven.
Many will say to me on the day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in
your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many
miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from
me, you evildoers!"
[Matthew 7:21]
Some leaders claimed, “This probably refers to the Mormons or somebody
else. Don’t worry about it.”
"Gabriel says Jesus will be “called the son of God” and he would be
“given the Throne of David” to “rule the House of Jacob forever.”"
[Mark 1:35]
"Enos was the son of Seth, and Seth was the son of Adam, and Adam was
the son of God."
[Luke 3:36]
Note: Adam, not Jesus, is listed in this genealogy of Jesus as the son
of God, not Jesus.
Later on, the priests are asking Jesus, peace be upon him, if he
claims to be the son of God. He tells them in fact, it is they who are
making this claim.
"You say that I am."
Gospel of John contains the greatest number of references to "son of
God"
Jesus, speaking in the third person talked about the "Son of God" in
[John 3:17 - John 5:24 - John 11:4 - John 11:27]
Martha, one of the followers, calls Jesus, peace be upon him, “The
Messiah, the Son of God”
"The Messiah, the Son of God."
[John 20:31]
But no verse makes the exact statement "Jesus is the Son of God and as
such he is divine or God."
QURAN
"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of
Allah anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary was (no
more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on
Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His
Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: It will be better for you: For
Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far exalted is He) above having a
son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough
is Allah as a Disposer of affairs."
[Noble Quran 4:171]
Notice in the Bible, the frequent link between the position of Jesus,
peace be upon him, as the Messiah and the ‘son-ship.’
The term ‘son of god’ can not, in itself, be considered enough to
declare anything unique about Jesus, peace be upon him, as this term
is used for many people throughout the Old and the New Testament.
See above:
[Luke 3:38]
Also, in
[Isaiah 62:8]
refers to the entire house of Israel as being, ‘Sons of God’.
Paul tells us about those who are led by the spirit:
"because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
[Romans 8:14]
The word "Messiah" is one that more particularly seems to represent
the station of the person predicted to appear and lead the people to
the victory over this world.
Oxford Companion of the Bible states Jews prior to Jesus, peace be
upon him, hoped for a prophesied ruler, reigning with everlasting
justice, peace and security for the "Sons of Israel."
BIBLE
"A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch
will bear fruit. The spirit of the Lord will be on him - the Spirit of
wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the
Spirit of Knowledge and of the fear of the Lord - and he will delight
in the fear of the Lord."
[Isaiah 11:1-5]
"The days are coming, declares the Lord, When I will fulfill the
gracious promise I made to the house of Israel and to the house of
Judah. In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch
sprout from David’s line; he will do what is just and right in the
land. In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in
safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The Lord Our
Righteousness. For this is what the Lord says: David will never fail
to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, nor will
the priests, who are Levites, ever fail to have a man to stand before
me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offering and to
present sacrifices."
[Jeremiah 33:14-20]
"My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one
shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees.
The will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where
your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s
children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their
prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them, it will be
an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their
numbers and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling
place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my
people. Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy,
when my sanctuary is among them forever."
[Ezekiel 37:24-28]
"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the rules staff from
between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience
of the nations is his."
[Genesis 49:10]
"I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come
out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the
foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth. Edom will be
conquered; Seir, his enemy, will conquered, but Israel will grow
strong. A ruler will come out of Jacob and destroy the survivors of
the city."
[Numbers 24:17]
God Incarnate? NOT HERE
BIBLE
Nathan the prophet (son of Solomon) said:
"The Lord declares to you that the Lord Himself will establish a house
for you: When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I
will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your
own body, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will
build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his
kingdom forever. I will be his father and he will be my son."
(New Testament book of Hebrews stops here)
Samuel continues:
"When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with
floggings inflicted by men. But my love will never be taken away from
him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you."
[2 Samuel 7:12-15]
"You are my Son; today I have begotten you."
[Hebrews 1:5]
Does this support the case the doctrine that Jesus, peace be upon him,
is the "begotten Son of God?"
Old Testament BIBLE
David is stating what God has proclaimed regarding David’s
relationship to God
"I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: he said to me, you are my
Son; this day have I begotten you."
[Psalms 2:7]
Note: The New International Version says the verse could be translated
either as "become your Father" or as "begotten you" into English or
Greek.
New Testament BIBLE
"He will be called the Son of God."
[Mark 1:35]
Note: This does not state he "is" the son, but rather, he will be
"called" the son of God.
Or was he the "one anointed to preach Good News to the poor."
prophesied by Isaiah, and the Messiah proclaimed by Gabriel, the
followers of Jesus, peace be upon him, Jesus, himself and the remained
of the New Testament, he evidently would not be God.
New Testament BIBLE
"I tell you the truth", Jesus answered, "before Abraham was, I am!"
[John 8:58]
"I am" is the term used to identify God to Moses, peace be upon him.
New Testament BIBLE
" For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, that
whoever believed in him should not perish but have everlasting life."
[John 3:16]
This does not actually define Jesus, peace be upon him, as God, or as
the Messiah or as a Prophet.
Note: This verse was actually modified by Jerome in the 4th century.
ARIUS (Early history of the Church) a popular leader from Alexandria,
Egypt.
He argued, Jesus, peace be upon him, was created and not ‘begotten.’
He was charged with heresy and his followers were horribly oppressed
by the Church.
After the matter was ‘decided’ and ‘confirmed’ by the Council of Nicea
in 325 A.D. and in an effort to consolidate both beliefs, Jerome
altered the original version of the Gospel of John 3:16 by changing
the word ‘monogenes’ (unique) and substituted the word ‘ingenious’
meaning ‘only begotten.’
What other ‘interpretations’ did the early Church Fathers invent to
satisfy their claims of the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him?
Good question.
New Testament BIBLE
"But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the
miracles that you may learn and understand that the Father is in me,
and I in the Father."
[John 10:38]
"Don’t you know that I am in the Father and that the Father is in me?
The words that I say to you are not my own. Rather, it is the Father,
living in me who is doing this work."
[John 14:10]
But further reading in the very same chapter:
"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in
me, and I am in you."
[John 14:20]
So how does he live in his disciples and how do they live in him? And
if so, are they also, sons of God or Gods?
Another good question.
"But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in
him. This is how we know we are in Him. Whoever claims to live in Him
must walk as Jesus did."
[1st John 2:5-6]
(This is an epistle [letter] written by another ‘John,’ not John the
Gospel er nor John the Baptist)
Note: This indicates, living ‘in God’ means, ‘Obeying God’
commandments and following the Way of Jesus, peace be upon him.
Twice in the New Testament, Jesus, peace be upon him, tells his
followers how to pray saying, "When you pray, say this..."
And the words are very clear, God’s Will be done on earth as it is in
Heaven.
BIBLE
"I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as
we are one; I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete
unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even
as you have loved me."
[John 17:22-23]
The word used throughout chapter 10 and 17, for unity or one was the
same, ‘heis’ meaning the number one. There is another word ‘hen’ which
means a unity of essence. However, ‘hen’ is nowhere to be found in
these chapters.
Note: Conclusion is this is a prayer from Jesus, peace be upon him, to
God that all of his followers would have the same relationship that he
(Jesus) had.
Understanding the word ‘one’ meanings understanding the way in which
it is being used. For example a man and a woman become ‘one’ when they
marry; someone might say, ‘One hopes for success’ or ‘We are one in
agreement.’
Jesus, peace be upon him, is supposed to have said,
"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
In the very part of the Bible we find the verse wherein Jesus, peace
be upon him, tells his followers, if they accepted a little child,
then they also accepted Jesus, peace be upon him. Naturally, he did
not mean the child was God or that he was a child.
Christians are taught early in life, by doing good deeds and service
for others, they are in fact allowing others to see Jesus in them.
Why do we hold so tight to doctrines, even after realizing the
incorrectness and false teachings?
Yet another good question
The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus, peace be upon him, is a man,
born of a woman without any father, strengthened by a Spirit from God
(Gabriel), sent by God to teach the Children of Israel the true
meaning of belief and proper actions (following the commandments) that
God would accept from them and as such, their ‘road to salvation.’
One more time:
BIBLE
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God. He was with God at the beginning."
[John 1:1]
Jesus, peace be upon him, was the very "Word of God".
QURAN
"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of
Allah anything but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no
more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on
Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him; so believe in Allah and His
Messengers. Say not ‘trinity’: desist."
[Noble Quran 4:171]
It is difficult for us to admit that we have been deceived for so many
years by some many people, some of them very near and dear to us. The
truth is, ‘Someone has been lying to us’ - on purpose.
It is also difficult to consider the consequences of loosing faith in
the doctrine of the Church, out of fear of loosing faith in God
altogether.
But there is wonderful hope, Grace, Mercy and Salvation for those who
come to the correct belief and obey the commandments.
Wisdom or Word?
Oxford Companion to the Bible
The words “wisdom” and ‘word’ were synonymous (exactly the same words)
in Jewish thought at the time of Jesus.
Old Testament BIBLE
"The lord brought me forth at the beginning of his work before his
deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning before
the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when
there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were
settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made
the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. I was there
when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on
the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed
securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out
the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at his side."
[Proverbs 8:22-30]
"By Wisdom the Lord laid the earth’s foundations, by understanding he
set the heavens in place; by his knowledge the deeps were divided, and
the clouds let drop the dew."
[Proverbs 3:19]
APOCRYPHA (hidden books of the Bible)
Wisdom I and Wisdom II
Sirach (also called: “Ecclesiasticus”) written by Jesus ben Sira, a
devout Jew of Jerusalem, 200 years before Christ.
These texts were a part of the Bible until the time of the Calvinists
and the Protestant Reformation (hence the word - protest).
Scrolls found at Wadi Qumran and Masada confirm these were always a
part of the ancient version of the Bible, but obviously not something
Protestants wanted anything to do with.
Wisdom states:
"Wisdom praises herself, and tells of her glory in the midst of her
people. In the assembly of the Most High she opens her mouth, and in
the presence of his hosts she tells of her glory: ‘I came forth from
the mouth of the Most High and covered the earth like a mist. I dwelt
in the highest heavens, and my throne was in a pillar of a cloud.
Alone I compassed the vault of heaven and traversed the depths of the
abyss. Over waves of the sea, over all the earth, and over every
people and nation I have held sway. Among all these I sought a resting
place; in whose territory should I abide? Then the Creator of all
things gave me a command, and my Creator chose the place for my tent.
He said, ‘Make your dwelling in Jacob, and in Israel, receive your
inheritance.’ Before the ages, in the beginning he created me, and for
all the ages I shall not cease to be. In the holy tent I ministered
before him, and so I was established in Zion. Thus in the beloved city
he gave me a resting place, and in Jerusalem was my domain. I took
root in an honored people, in the portion of the Lord his heritage."
[Sirach 24:1-12]
"For she is a breath of the power of God, and a pure emanation of the
glory of the Almighty; therefore nothing evil gains entrance into her.
For she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the
working of God, and an image of His goodness. Although she is but one,
she can do all things, and while remaining in herself, she renews all
things; in every generation she passes into holy souls and makes them
friends of God, and prophets."
[Wisdom of Solomon 7:25-27]
Did the beginning of the Gospel of John indicate John believed the
Spirit was sent by God to Jesus, peace be upon him, that it was the
Spirit of Wisdom, Spirit of Prophecy, sent to all the prophets, with
the same commandments and wisdom?
Could the Spirit of Wisdom be with God since creation? Or perhaps the
Spirit was the ‘Word of God’ that was uttered or breathed by God in
the Beginning and then continued along with God in the rest of
Creation?
BIBLE APOCRAPHA
"For wisdom, the Fashioner of all things, taught me."
[Wisdom of Solomon 7:22]
Could the Spirit of Wisdom be the Holy Spirit that spoke to Mary about
having her baby? And the same Holy Spirit that descending upon him at
this baptism?
BIBLE
"Then John gave this testimony: ‘I saw the Spirit come down from
heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except
that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on
whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize
with the Holy Spirit’"
[John 1:32]
All of this confirms without doubt the writers of the Old Testament
and the New Testament were definitely on the lookout for a “Messiah”
or “chosen leader of the way to salvation in this life and the next
life.”
The word in Hebrew for the ‘chosen one’ or ‘anointed one’ or
‘appointed one’ is ‘Messiah.’
The word in Koine Greek for ‘Messiah’ is ‘Christos’ (became ‘Christ’).
The word in Arabic for it is “Meshiha”
Did Jesus, peace be upon him, ask people to pray to him, or to pray
with him, to the God who sent him?
Did Jesus, peace be upon him, claim to be God?
Can the term "son of God" in English really present the meaning
intended by the writers of the Bible?
Now let us compare with compassion and wisdom in our hearts. Which of
the two concepts make the most sense between Islam and Christianity
when it comes to the subject of Jesus, peace be upon him?
Let us compare the two and see what our wisdom and common sense tell
us:
According to the teachings of Islam in the Quran and the words of the
last prophet, Muhammad, peace be upon him, Jesus, the son of Mary, was
predicted, he came to earth as a baby with a mother but no father, he
did amazing miracles by the permission of Allah, including even
bringing a dead man back to life; he did demonstrate for his followers
the very best of behavior and obedience to the commandments of God.
And according to the Bible he personally prayed and ask God Almighty
to save him from the fate of going to the cross.
The Bible indicates Jesus prayers at Gethsemane went unanswered, even
though he stayed up through the night crying and asking God, "Let this
cup pass from me, even so, Your will be done."
Yet, according to Quran, Almighty God did answer his prayers. He did
not go to the cross, but rather the likeness of him was put on another
person who did go to the cross and Almighty God, caused Jesus, peace
be upon him, to be saved, protected and he is with God and will return
in the Last Days to lead the true believers to victory over the evil
ones.
Some have even speculated the one on the cross was the very one (Judas
Thomas Iscariot) who sold out Jesus and his followers for thirty
pieces of sliver.
http://www.bibleislam.com/son_of_who.php |
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John Fraser
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Son of Who? |
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"Hamady" <ahmd.mansy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6db444db-16f3-4314-8722-5d33ba31fc43@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
By - Yusuf Estes
Does the belief in Jesus, peace be upon him, as a ‘son of God’ really
make sense?
What exactly does 'son of God' mean?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First mistake: it is Son of God, to imply his being unique.
Second mistake: nobody but Muhammad knows what he saw or heard in the
cave and in his dreams.
Third mistake: trying to use the Bible (which muslims consider corrupt)
to prove itself against itself is hypocrisy.
Fourth mistake: the Quran is an authority only on Islam, nothing else.
Cheers,
John |
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Mail Man
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Son of Who? |
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"John Fraser" wrote in reply to "Hamady":
| Quote: |
First mistake: it is Son of God, to imply his being unique.
Second mistake: nobody but Muhammad knows what he saw or heard in the
cave and in his dreams.
Third mistake: trying to use the Bible (which muslims consider
corrupt)
to prove itself against itself is hypocrisy.
Fourth mistake: the Quran is an authority only on Islam, nothing else.
|
Actually, the Qur'an is NOT the authority on Islam -- the Hadith are! As we
all know, the Qur'an does not make any sense, so the Muslims needed the
Hadith (writings of man) to "put sensible" words" into the mouths of Allah
and his "prophet," Mohammed.
And, as long as "Hamady" sees fit to quote Bible in spite of how Islam views
its accuracy, "Hamady" is LYING BY OMISSION, as most Islam apologists tend
to do! While he's busy with verses that he, in many cases ignoring the
Capital Letter "S" in "Son," states show that Jesus is not God, he blithely
and intentionally avoids such other verses as:
John 10:30-33
30 - "I and My Father are one." [myNOTE: This is Jesus speaking]
31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 - Jesus answered them, "Many good works have I shewed you from My Father
[myNOTE: Jesus is here speaking of God]; for which of those works do ye
stone Me?"
33 - The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we stone thee not; but
for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, _makest thyself God_."
[myNOTE: Here, the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because He said that He and
God are One!]
John 8:54-59
54 - Jesus answered [myNOTE: Jesus is speaking to the doubting Jews], "If I
honour Myself, My honour is nothing: it is My Father that honoureth Me; of
whom ye say, that He is your God: [myNOTE: Here, Jesus states that His
Father and God are the SAME PERSON!]
55 - "Yet ye have not known Him; but I know Him: and if I should say, I know
Him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know Him, and keep His
saying.
56 - "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was
glad."
57 - Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and
hast thou seen Abraham?"
58 - Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham
was, _I AM_."
59 - Then took they [myNOTE: the Jews] up stones to cast at Him: ...
[myNOTE: The Jews wanted to stone Jesus because He identified Himself with
the Holy Expression, "I AM," spoken by the Jews ONLY of GOD, HIMSELF. In so
doing Jesus had CLAIMED TO BE GOD!!!]
Mark 2:3-12 [myNOTE: also in Luke 5:19-25]
3 - And they come unto Him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne
of four.
4 - And when they could not come nigh unto Him for the press, they uncovered
the roof where He was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed
wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5 - When Jesus saw their faith, He said unto the sick of the palsy, "Son,
thy _sins be forgiven thee_." [myNOTE: ONLY GOD can forgive sin, therefore,
Jesus was claiming to be God!!!]
6 - But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in
their hearts,
7 - "Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God
only?"
8 - And immediately when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they so reasoned
within themselves, He said unto them, "Why reason ye these things in your
hearts?
9 - "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, 'Thy sins be
forgiven thee'; or to say, 'Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk'?
10 - "But that ye may know that the Son of man _hath power on earth to
forgive sins_, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11 - "I say unto thee, 'Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into
thine house.'"
12 - And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them
all; ...
[myNOTE: Jesus PROVED HE HAS POWER TO FORGIVE SINS ON EARTH AND IS,
therefore, GOD. To the scribes, Jesus first foretold, then DEMONSTRATED His
power by performing the miracle He said He would in verses 10-12]
John 5:16-18
16 - And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay Him,
because He had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 - But Jesus answered them, "_My Father_ worketh hitherto, and I work."
18 - Therefore, the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only
had broken the sabbath, but _said also that God was his Father, making
himself ***equal with God***_.
[myNOTE: Therefore, it can be seen that the Jews consider "Son of God,"
"Son of man" and "Messiah/Christ" as being ***equal with God***.]
Matthew 16:14-17
14 - And they [myNOTE: Jesus' apostles] said, "Some say that Thou art John
the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets."
15 - He [myNOTE: Jesus] saith unto them, "But whom say ye that I am?"
16 - And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the
living God."
17 - And Jesus answered and said unto him, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:
for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is
in heaven."
[myNOTE: Here, the expressions "Christ," "Son of the living God," and "My
Father" all make Jesus **equal with God***! Since NONE are equal to God,
Jesus, himself, IS CLAIMING TO BE GOD!]
This debunks the idea that "Jesus never claimed to be God." Further, this
also further debunks other doubters' ideas that these claims are ONLY found
in the Gospel of John and are, therefore "not supported" by any of the other
three Gospel writers, Matthew, Mark and Luke, as though this might (albeit
FALSELY) undermine the validity of any passage in the Gospel of John wherein
Jesus claimed He is God.
Do not allow the lying Islam apologists, a great deal of whose Qur'anic
Surahs are Satanically twisted plagiarisms of the Jewish Talmud, to confuse
you about the TRUE Divine Personage of Jesus Christ or what He actually said
in the course of His Ministry of Salvation/Grace.
The "God" of Islam had two other names before Mohammed finally settled upon
(manufactured) "Allah." Mohammed got most of his ideas while learning from
the Jews of 7th Century Medina. These Jews would not even breathe the
Sacred Name of God, let alone say it out loud. Therefore, Mohammed never
knew the correct Name of God and had to make one up so that his (Mohammed's)
subjects could better identify with this "god."
So, even the slightest light shown upon the Qur'an reveals its impurities
and, as a result, Islam cannot stand as a critic of, or in judgement of, the
accuracy of either the Torah, Tanach, Talmud, Holy Bible or any other
writings or traditions acceptable to the believing communities of either
Jews or Christians. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
bam
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Son of Who? |
|
|
"Hamady" <ahmd.mansy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6db444db-16f3-4314-8722-5d33ba31fc43@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
By - Yusuf Estes
| Quote: | Does the belief in Jesus, peace be upon him, as a ‘son of God’ really
make sense?
|
Frankly, no. Lots of things Jesus told us didn't make sense to anyone. For
instance, eating His body and drinking His blood.
Nevertheless, He is the Messiah, and can neither deceive nor be deceived.
Take Him for His word.
BAM |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Al Smith
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Son of Who? |
|
|
| Quote: | "John Fraser" wrote in reply to "Hamady":
First mistake: it is Son of God, to imply his being unique.
Second mistake: nobody but Muhammad knows what he saw or heard in the
cave and in his dreams.
Third mistake: trying to use the Bible (which muslims consider
corrupt)
to prove itself against itself is hypocrisy.
Fourth mistake: the Quran is an authority only on Islam, nothing else.
Actually, the Qur'an is NOT the authority on Islam -- the Hadith are! As we
all know, the Qur'an does not make any sense, so the Muslims needed the
Hadith (writings of man) to "put sensible" words" into the mouths of Allah
and his "prophet," Mohammed.
|
Mohamed was a warrior, a war lord. It is not realistic to expect
that he had the capability to write a holy book that contained
anything of deep significance or meaning. That's why the "Koran" is
second-rate. I liken it to the "Little Red Book" of Chairman Mao.
Remember back when Mao was alive, and his "Little Red Book" was
everywhere, clutched in the hands of fanatical Communists? I do. I
even bought the book and read it.
Man O Man, was it bad! The most banal, dull, trite piece of writing
I have ever encountered. Mao couldn't write for shit. His ideas were
the ideas of a peasant, because Mao was a peasant. All he knew how
to do was dominate and kill other human beings. The same was true of
Mohamed. So naturally, the "Koran" sucks.
-Al- |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
John Fraser
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Son of Who? |
|
|
Good morning Mail Man;
Your verse of Peter acknowledging Christ's divinity came to mind when I
read Hamady's post. At the time of Muhammad's first revelation, the Arabic
religions served some 360 gods, of which Muhammad's family had priests under
the god Allah. Hence the chosen name. The Qu'ran has some issues with
accuracy and readability, but I guess its easier to say the Bible is corrupt
in order to save face. Of course, muslims will also claim that not all of
the Bible is corrupt. They can't agree on which parts.
Cheers,
John
"Mail Man" <not.here@too-long-gone.com> wrote in message
news:o9mdnffFjZG_ODfVnZ2dnUVZ_rfinZ2d@comcast.com...
| Quote: | "John Fraser" wrote in reply to "Hamady":
First mistake: it is Son of God, to imply his being unique.
Second mistake: nobody but Muhammad knows what he saw or heard in the
cave and in his dreams.
Third mistake: trying to use the Bible (which muslims consider
corrupt)
to prove itself against itself is hypocrisy.
Fourth mistake: the Quran is an authority only on Islam, nothing
else.
Actually, the Qur'an is NOT the authority on Islam -- the Hadith are! As
we
all know, the Qur'an does not make any sense, so the Muslims needed the
Hadith (writings of man) to "put sensible" words" into the mouths of Allah
and his "prophet," Mohammed.
And, as long as "Hamady" sees fit to quote Bible in spite of how Islam
views
its accuracy, "Hamady" is LYING BY OMISSION, as most Islam apologists tend
to do! While he's busy with verses that he, in many cases ignoring the
Capital Letter "S" in "Son," states show that Jesus is not God, he
blithely
and intentionally avoids such other verses as:
John 10:30-33
30 - "I and My Father are one." [myNOTE: This is Jesus speaking]
31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 - Jesus answered them, "Many good works have I shewed you from My
Father
[myNOTE: Jesus is here speaking of God]; for which of those works do ye
stone Me?"
33 - The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we stone thee not;
but
for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, _makest thyself God_."
[myNOTE: Here, the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because He said that He and
God are One!]
John 8:54-59
54 - Jesus answered [myNOTE: Jesus is speaking to the doubting Jews], "If
I
honour Myself, My honour is nothing: it is My Father that honoureth Me; of
whom ye say, that He is your God: [myNOTE: Here, Jesus states that His
Father and God are the SAME PERSON!]
55 - "Yet ye have not known Him; but I know Him: and if I should say, I
know
Him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know Him, and keep His
saying.
56 - "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was
glad."
57 - Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and
hast thou seen Abraham?"
58 - Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham
was, _I AM_."
59 - Then took they [myNOTE: the Jews] up stones to cast at Him: ...
[myNOTE: The Jews wanted to stone Jesus because He identified Himself with
the Holy Expression, "I AM," spoken by the Jews ONLY of GOD, HIMSELF. In
so
doing Jesus had CLAIMED TO BE GOD!!!]
Mark 2:3-12 [myNOTE: also in Luke 5:19-25]
3 - And they come unto Him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was
borne
of four.
4 - And when they could not come nigh unto Him for the press, they
uncovered
the roof where He was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the
bed
wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5 - When Jesus saw their faith, He said unto the sick of the palsy, "Son,
thy _sins be forgiven thee_." [myNOTE: ONLY GOD can forgive sin,
therefore,
Jesus was claiming to be God!!!]
6 - But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in
their hearts,
7 - "Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but
God
only?"
8 - And immediately when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they so
reasoned
within themselves, He said unto them, "Why reason ye these things in your
hearts?
9 - "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, 'Thy sins be
forgiven thee'; or to say, 'Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk'?
10 - "But that ye may know that the Son of man _hath power on earth to
forgive sins_, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11 - "I say unto thee, 'Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into
thine house.'"
12 - And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them
all; ...
[myNOTE: Jesus PROVED HE HAS POWER TO FORGIVE SINS ON EARTH AND IS,
therefore, GOD. To the scribes, Jesus first foretold, then DEMONSTRATED
His
power by performing the miracle He said He would in verses 10-12]
John 5:16-18
16 - And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay Him,
because He had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 - But Jesus answered them, "_My Father_ worketh hitherto, and I work."
18 - Therefore, the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only
had broken the sabbath, but _said also that God was his Father, making
himself ***equal with God***_.
[myNOTE: Therefore, it can be seen that the Jews consider "Son of God,"
"Son of man" and "Messiah/Christ" as being ***equal with God***.]
Matthew 16:14-17
14 - And they [myNOTE: Jesus' apostles] said, "Some say that Thou art John
the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets."
15 - He [myNOTE: Jesus] saith unto them, "But whom say ye that I am?"
16 - And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the
living God."
17 - And Jesus answered and said unto him, "Blessed art thou, Simon
Barjona:
for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is
in heaven."
[myNOTE: Here, the expressions "Christ," "Son of the living God," and "My
Father" all make Jesus **equal with God***! Since NONE are equal to God,
Jesus, himself, IS CLAIMING TO BE GOD!]
This debunks the idea that "Jesus never claimed to be God." Further, this
also further debunks other doubters' ideas that these claims are ONLY
found
in the Gospel of John and are, therefore "not supported" by any of the
other
three Gospel writers, Matthew, Mark and Luke, as though this might (albeit
FALSELY) undermine the validity of any passage in the Gospel of John
wherein
Jesus claimed He is God.
Do not allow the lying Islam apologists, a great deal of whose Qur'anic
Surahs are Satanically twisted plagiarisms of the Jewish Talmud, to
confuse
you about the TRUE Divine Personage of Jesus Christ or what He actually
said
in the course of His Ministry of Salvation/Grace.
The "God" of Islam had two other names before Mohammed finally settled
upon
(manufactured) "Allah." Mohammed got most of his ideas while learning
from
the Jews of 7th Century Medina. These Jews would not even breathe the
Sacred Name of God, let alone say it out loud. Therefore, Mohammed never
knew the correct Name of God and had to make one up so that his
(Mohammed's)
subjects could better identify with this "god."
So, even the slightest light shown upon the Qur'an reveals its impurities
and, as a result, Islam cannot stand as a critic of, or in judgement of,
the
accuracy of either the Torah, Tanach, Talmud, Holy Bible or any other
writings or traditions acceptable to the believing communities of either
Jews or Christians.
|
|
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Raymond
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:56 am Post subject: Re: Son of Who? |
|
|
On Aug 19, 8:04 am, "bam" <mcca5b...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "Hamady" <ahmd.ma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6db444db-16f3-4314-8722-5d33ba31fc43@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
By - Yusuf Estes
Does the belief in Jesus, peace be upon him, as a ‘son of God’ really
make sense?
Frankly, no. Lots of things Jesus told us didn't make sense to anyone. For
instance, eating His body and drinking His blood.
|
To those that know Jewish teaching it made all the sense in the
world. He pointed to bread and wine, not flesh and blood, the bread
and wine was the type, as bread fed the body and wine was to drink and
since life is made of food and drink, one can not live lone with out
both of them.
You speak for yourself not "anyone".
| Quote: |
Nevertheless, He is the Messiah, and can neither deceive nor be deceived.
|
What is that remark suppose to mean, false not to be false? deceive
nor be deceived. You do not make any sense.
| Quote: |
Take Him for His word.
|
Take Him at His Word not for it.
Raymond
|
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Rico
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: corrutption of scripture (Re: Son of Who?) |
|
|
The reason that many muslims say that biblical texts have been corrupted is
because of the translations into various languages, as opposed to the
Qu'iran which is still published in the original arabic dialect. However,
they (those who hold the corrupt text view) forget that more than half the
bible is still used by people literate in the Hebrew language, thus a direct
translation from Hebrew to any chosen language that currently has a written
form can't be corrupted.
"John Fraser" <jfraser@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:48aad32c$0$4018$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
| Quote: | Good morning Mail Man;
Your verse of Peter acknowledging Christ's divinity came to mind when I
read Hamady's post. At the time of Muhammad's first revelation, the
Arabic religions served some 360 gods, of which Muhammad's family had
priests under the god Allah. Hence the chosen name. The Qu'ran has some
issues with accuracy and readability, but I guess its easier to say the
Bible is corrupt in order to save face. Of course, muslims will also
claim that not all of the Bible is corrupt. They can't agree on which
parts.
Cheers,
John
"Mail Man" <not.here@too-long-gone.com> wrote in message
news:o9mdnffFjZG_ODfVnZ2dnUVZ_rfinZ2d@comcast.com...
"John Fraser" wrote in reply to "Hamady":
First mistake: it is Son of God, to imply his being unique.
Second mistake: nobody but Muhammad knows what he saw or heard in
the
cave and in his dreams.
Third mistake: trying to use the Bible (which muslims consider
corrupt)
to prove itself against itself is hypocrisy.
Fourth mistake: the Quran is an authority only on Islam, nothing
else.
Actually, the Qur'an is NOT the authority on Islam -- the Hadith are! As
we
all know, the Qur'an does not make any sense, so the Muslims needed the
Hadith (writings of man) to "put sensible" words" into the mouths of
Allah
and his "prophet," Mohammed.
And, as long as "Hamady" sees fit to quote Bible in spite of how Islam
views
its accuracy, "Hamady" is LYING BY OMISSION, as most Islam apologists
tend
to do! While he's busy with verses that he, in many cases ignoring the
Capital Letter "S" in "Son," states show that Jesus is not God, he
blithely
and intentionally avoids such other verses as:
John 10:30-33
30 - "I and My Father are one." [myNOTE: This is Jesus speaking]
31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 - Jesus answered them, "Many good works have I shewed you from My
Father
[myNOTE: Jesus is here speaking of God]; for which of those works do ye
stone Me?"
33 - The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we stone thee not;
but
for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, _makest thyself God_."
[myNOTE: Here, the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because He said that He and
God are One!]
John 8:54-59
54 - Jesus answered [myNOTE: Jesus is speaking to the doubting Jews], "If
I
honour Myself, My honour is nothing: it is My Father that honoureth Me;
of
whom ye say, that He is your God: [myNOTE: Here, Jesus states that His
Father and God are the SAME PERSON!]
55 - "Yet ye have not known Him; but I know Him: and if I should say, I
know
Him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know Him, and keep His
saying.
56 - "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was
glad."
57 - Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and
hast thou seen Abraham?"
58 - Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before
Abraham
was, _I AM_."
59 - Then took they [myNOTE: the Jews] up stones to cast at Him: ...
[myNOTE: The Jews wanted to stone Jesus because He identified Himself
with
the Holy Expression, "I AM," spoken by the Jews ONLY of GOD, HIMSELF. In
so
doing Jesus had CLAIMED TO BE GOD!!!]
Mark 2:3-12 [myNOTE: also in Luke 5:19-25]
3 - And they come unto Him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was
borne
of four.
4 - And when they could not come nigh unto Him for the press, they
uncovered
the roof where He was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the
bed
wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5 - When Jesus saw their faith, He said unto the sick of the palsy, "Son,
thy _sins be forgiven thee_." [myNOTE: ONLY GOD can forgive sin,
therefore,
Jesus was claiming to be God!!!]
6 - But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in
their hearts,
7 - "Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but
God
only?"
8 - And immediately when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they so
reasoned
within themselves, He said unto them, "Why reason ye these things in your
hearts?
9 - "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, 'Thy sins be
forgiven thee'; or to say, 'Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk'?
10 - "But that ye may know that the Son of man _hath power on earth to
forgive sins_, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11 - "I say unto thee, 'Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into
thine house.'"
12 - And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before
them
all; ...
[myNOTE: Jesus PROVED HE HAS POWER TO FORGIVE SINS ON EARTH AND IS,
therefore, GOD. To the scribes, Jesus first foretold, then DEMONSTRATED
His
power by performing the miracle He said He would in verses 10-12]
John 5:16-18
16 - And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay Him,
because He had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 - But Jesus answered them, "_My Father_ worketh hitherto, and I work."
18 - Therefore, the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only
had broken the sabbath, but _said also that God was his Father, making
himself ***equal with God***_.
[myNOTE: Therefore, it can be seen that the Jews consider "Son of God,"
"Son of man" and "Messiah/Christ" as being ***equal with God***.]
Matthew 16:14-17
14 - And they [myNOTE: Jesus' apostles] said, "Some say that Thou art
John
the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets."
15 - He [myNOTE: Jesus] saith unto them, "But whom say ye that I am?"
16 - And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the
living God."
17 - And Jesus answered and said unto him, "Blessed art thou, Simon
Barjona:
for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which
is
in heaven."
[myNOTE: Here, the expressions "Christ," "Son of the living God," and "My
Father" all make Jesus **equal with God***! Since NONE are equal to God,
Jesus, himself, IS CLAIMING TO BE GOD!]
This debunks the idea that "Jesus never claimed to be God." Further,
this
also further debunks other doubters' ideas that these claims are ONLY
found
in the Gospel of John and are, therefore "not supported" by any of the
other
three Gospel writers, Matthew, Mark and Luke, as though this might
(albeit
FALSELY) undermine the validity of any passage in the Gospel of John
wherein
Jesus claimed He is God.
Do not allow the lying Islam apologists, a great deal of whose Qur'anic
Surahs are Satanically twisted plagiarisms of the Jewish Talmud, to
confuse
you about the TRUE Divine Personage of Jesus Christ or what He actually
said
in the course of His Ministry of Salvation/Grace.
The "God" of Islam had two other names before Mohammed finally settled
upon
(manufactured) "Allah." Mohammed got most of his ideas while learning
from
the Jews of 7th Century Medina. These Jews would not even breathe the
Sacred Name of God, let alone say it out loud. Therefore, Mohammed never
knew the correct Name of God and had to make one up so that his
(Mohammed's)
subjects could better identify with this "god."
So, even the slightest light shown upon the Qur'an reveals its impurities
and, as a result, Islam cannot stand as a critic of, or in judgement of,
the
accuracy of either the Torah, Tanach, Talmud, Holy Bible or any other
writings or traditions acceptable to the believing communities of either
Jews or Christians.
|
|
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
John Fraser
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: corrutption of scripture (Re: Son of Who?) |
|
|
Good morning Rico;
"Rico" <hoganrj@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:F3Qqk.29824$IK1.2517@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
| Quote: | The reason that many muslims say that biblical texts have been corrupted
is because of the translations into various languages, as opposed to the
Qu'iran which is still published in the original arabic dialect. However,
they (those who hold the corrupt text view) forget that more than half the
bible is still used by people literate in the Hebrew language, thus a
direct translation from Hebrew to any chosen language that currently has a
written form can't be corrupted.
|
Thank you for your insight. A number of factors come into play when
transcribing one language into another. Clearly, a functional knowledge of
the original language is essential. Conveying the thoughts of the author
into a concise transcription is equally important. An example Arah used was
John 3:16 where St. Jerome changed 'unique' to 'only begotten'. Perhaps
this was done to clarify what was meant by unique as Muhammad also thought
Jesus to be unique, but certainly not the same way.
What seems evident is Muhammad rejected the message of the Gospels and
substituted an alternative. What is sad is none of the stories common to
the Holy Bible and Noble Qu'ran match very well. Rather puzzling as all
source languages are quite old.
Cheers,
John
| Quote: |
"John Fraser" <jfraser@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:48aad32c$0$4018$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
Good morning Mail Man;
Your verse of Peter acknowledging Christ's divinity came to mind when
I read Hamady's post. At the time of Muhammad's first revelation, the
Arabic religions served some 360 gods, of which Muhammad's family had
priests under the god Allah. Hence the chosen name. The Qu'ran has some
issues with accuracy and readability, but I guess its easier to say the
Bible is corrupt in order to save face. Of course, muslims will also
claim that not all of the Bible is corrupt. They can't agree on which
parts.
Cheers,
John
"Mail Man" <not.here@too-long-gone.com> wrote in message
news:o9mdnffFjZG_ODfVnZ2dnUVZ_rfinZ2d@comcast.com...
"John Fraser" wrote in reply to "Hamady":
First mistake: it is Son of God, to imply his being unique.
Second mistake: nobody but Muhammad knows what he saw or heard in
the
cave and in his dreams.
Third mistake: trying to use the Bible (which muslims consider
corrupt)
to prove itself against itself is hypocrisy.
Fourth mistake: the Quran is an authority only on Islam, nothing
else.
Actually, the Qur'an is NOT the authority on Islam -- the Hadith are!
As we
all know, the Qur'an does not make any sense, so the Muslims needed the
Hadith (writings of man) to "put sensible" words" into the mouths of
Allah
and his "prophet," Mohammed.
And, as long as "Hamady" sees fit to quote Bible in spite of how Islam
views
its accuracy, "Hamady" is LYING BY OMISSION, as most Islam apologists
tend
to do! While he's busy with verses that he, in many cases ignoring the
Capital Letter "S" in "Son," states show that Jesus is not God, he
blithely
and intentionally avoids such other verses as:
John 10:30-33
30 - "I and My Father are one." [myNOTE: This is Jesus speaking]
31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 - Jesus answered them, "Many good works have I shewed you from My
Father
[myNOTE: Jesus is here speaking of God]; for which of those works do ye
stone Me?"
33 - The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we stone thee not;
but
for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, _makest thyself
God_."
[myNOTE: Here, the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because He said that He
and
God are One!]
John 8:54-59
54 - Jesus answered [myNOTE: Jesus is speaking to the doubting Jews],
"If I
honour Myself, My honour is nothing: it is My Father that honoureth Me;
of
whom ye say, that He is your God: [myNOTE: Here, Jesus states that His
Father and God are the SAME PERSON!]
55 - "Yet ye have not known Him; but I know Him: and if I should say, I
know
Him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know Him, and keep His
saying.
56 - "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was
glad."
57 - Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and
hast thou seen Abraham?"
58 - Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before
Abraham
was, _I AM_."
59 - Then took they [myNOTE: the Jews] up stones to cast at Him: ...
[myNOTE: The Jews wanted to stone Jesus because He identified Himself
with
the Holy Expression, "I AM," spoken by the Jews ONLY of GOD, HIMSELF.
In so
doing Jesus had CLAIMED TO BE GOD!!!]
Mark 2:3-12 [myNOTE: also in Luke 5:19-25]
3 - And they come unto Him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was
borne
of four.
4 - And when they could not come nigh unto Him for the press, they
uncovered
the roof where He was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the
bed
wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5 - When Jesus saw their faith, He said unto the sick of the palsy,
"Son,
thy _sins be forgiven thee_." [myNOTE: ONLY GOD can forgive sin,
therefore,
Jesus was claiming to be God!!!]
6 - But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in
their hearts,
7 - "Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but
God
only?"
8 - And immediately when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they so
reasoned
within themselves, He said unto them, "Why reason ye these things in
your
hearts?
9 - "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, 'Thy sins be
forgiven thee'; or to say, 'Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk'?
10 - "But that ye may know that the Son of man _hath power on earth to
forgive sins_, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11 - "I say unto thee, 'Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into
thine house.'"
12 - And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before
them
all; ...
[myNOTE: Jesus PROVED HE HAS POWER TO FORGIVE SINS ON EARTH AND IS,
therefore, GOD. To the scribes, Jesus first foretold, then DEMONSTRATED
His
power by performing the miracle He said He would in verses 10-12]
John 5:16-18
16 - And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay Him,
because He had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 - But Jesus answered them, "_My Father_ worketh hitherto, and I
work."
18 - Therefore, the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not
only
had broken the sabbath, but _said also that God was his Father, making
himself ***equal with God***_.
[myNOTE: Therefore, it can be seen that the Jews consider "Son of God,"
"Son of man" and "Messiah/Christ" as being ***equal with God***.]
Matthew 16:14-17
14 - And they [myNOTE: Jesus' apostles] said, "Some say that Thou art
John
the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets."
15 - He [myNOTE: Jesus] saith unto them, "But whom say ye that I am?"
16 - And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the
living God."
17 - And Jesus answered and said unto him, "Blessed art thou, Simon
Barjona:
for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which
is
in heaven."
[myNOTE: Here, the expressions "Christ," "Son of the living God," and
"My
Father" all make Jesus **equal with God***! Since NONE are equal to
God,
Jesus, himself, IS CLAIMING TO BE GOD!]
This debunks the idea that "Jesus never claimed to be God." Further,
this
also further debunks other doubters' ideas that these claims are ONLY
found
in the Gospel of John and are, therefore "not supported" by any of the
other
three Gospel writers, Matthew, Mark and Luke, as though this might
(albeit
FALSELY) undermine the validity of any passage in the Gospel of John
wherein
Jesus claimed He is God.
Do not allow the lying Islam apologists, a great deal of whose Qur'anic
Surahs are Satanically twisted plagiarisms of the Jewish Talmud, to
confuse
you about the TRUE Divine Personage of Jesus Christ or what He actually
said
in the course of His Ministry of Salvation/Grace.
The "God" of Islam had two other names before Mohammed finally settled
upon
(manufactured) "Allah." Mohammed got most of his ideas while learning
from
the Jews of 7th Century Medina. These Jews would not even breathe the
Sacred Name of God, let alone say it out loud. Therefore, Mohammed
never
knew the correct Name of God and had to make one up so that his
(Mohammed's)
subjects could better identify with this "god."
So, even the slightest light shown upon the Qur'an reveals its
impurities
and, as a result, Islam cannot stand as a critic of, or in judgement of,
the
accuracy of either the Torah, Tanach, Talmud, Holy Bible or any other
writings or traditions acceptable to the believing communities of either
Jews or Christians.
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Raymond
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:26 am Post subject: Re: Son of Who? |
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On Aug 18, 10:56 pm, Hamady <ahmd.ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | By - Yusuf Estes
Does the belief in Jesus, peace be upon him, as a ‘son of God’ really
make sense?
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None at all, since the way you worded this is not what happen and is
not what the Bible teaches. He IS THE SON OF GOD not "as a" so your
statement does not make any sense, then I sure you knew that and like
just to play with words and make up false statements that sound like
the real, till some one looks close at it.
| Quote: |
What exactly does 'son of God' mean?
|
He is God, God has no body before the birth of Jesus that was born of
a woman and so is seen as the Son of Man, and the Son of God, Jesus is
the express image of what God the Father would look like if He had a
body of flesh. Jesus even told Philip why ask me to show you the
Father, when you see me you seen the Father.
| Quote: |
Can true salvation from God, be the punishment of someone else who is
innocent from any of these crimes, to be punished as though he were
guilty?
|
Jesus can do that, as Jesus took on Himself all the sins of the World,
since he is God and also Man, and God made mankind in the beginning,
only He could accept the punishment for sin and pay the price for
sin. He did that so others could find forgiveness and not be found
guilty in the Judgment day, if he/she accepted the payment for their
all their sins, as 1 John 1:7 brings out. If one walks in the light
as Christ is in the light, then he/she has fellowship with God, by
Jesus and the blood on the Cross would cover all their sins, and they
can be made clean of sin. No one else can do that, people pay for
their own crimes and are punished for them. If they accepted Christ,
then in the end Heaven not Hell will be their eternal home. Then a
person that is innocent can if they like pay the cost to get one out
of jail, for some crimes even in the Law of today.
| Quote: |
Does God need someone to suffer severe punishment, even though they
are trying, day after day.
|
No God does not need such the devil would like such. To try on their
own, only makes things their own, and they suffer. If someone tells
you to get out of the house as it is on fire, and you refuse, who is
to blame for your death? Jesus is there to help remove the punishment
but if one does not want help or keeps doing the same over again then
it is clear they rejected the forgiveness and then all punishment they
get is what they are rewarded with, it is not God that makes one sin,
it is yourself and your want for what you do not need or what someone
else has.
| Quote: |
Did Jesus, peace be upon him, tell the people to take him as a god, or
to worship him?
|
Jesus does not have to tell people to make him or take him as a god,
He IS GOD and people that love someone Hug them, as is the way of
families today, "give me a hug" which can be a form of worship, it is
care, and thankful for what saved you from yourself and the evil of a
death without joy, or peace in a place called Hell. Some saves
someone and that person is thankful they show it by thanking them.
| Quote: |
Let us find the answer to these and other important questions about
the nature of Jesus of Christianity and Islam.
|
I know the answers and Islam is not the answer but a death wish and a
lie from Satan, false and evil, as seen by them that looked for the
answers and became Muslims and are killed by fellow Muslims in Iraq
daily. Nope there is nothing the Devil or Islam can say or do, as
actions speak louder then any Imam or teacher of the Koran could. |
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bam
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: Re: Son of Who? |
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"Raymond" <rwknapp@aim.com> wrote in message
news:8a8b5a2d-428c-48f9-85ce-f545f7f07541@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 19, 8:04 am, "bam" <mcca5b...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "Hamady" <ahmd.ma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6db444db-16f3-4314-8722-5d33ba31fc43@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
By - Yusuf Estes
Does the belief in Jesus, peace be upon him, as a ‘son of God’ really
make sense?
Frankly, no. Lots of things Jesus told us didn't make sense to anyone. For
instance, eating His body and drinking His blood.
To those that know Jewish teaching it made all the sense in the
world. He pointed to bread and wine, not flesh and blood, the bread
and wine was the type, as bread fed the body and wine was to drink and
since life is made of food and drink, one can not live lone with out
both of them.
You speak for yourself not "anyone".
|
You don't even believe Jesus rose from the dead. So who are you to make any
comments?
BAM |
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bam
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Son of Who? |
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Sorry raymond - I thought you were Ray Fischer.
As for you, you have appointed yourself a New Testament prophet, answering
to no one but God alone.
Does it ever amaze you that the Holy Spirit would reveal things to you alone
and no one else? I would never think that about myself - not unless an angel
appeared to me in 3-D, and I'd still have my doubts that it was an angel of
the Lord.
BAM
"Raymond" <rwknapp@aim.com> wrote in message
news:8a8b5a2d-428c-48f9-85ce-f545f7f07541@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 19, 8:04 am, "bam" <mcca5b...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "Hamady" <ahmd.ma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6db444db-16f3-4314-8722-5d33ba31fc43@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
By - Yusuf Estes
Does the belief in Jesus, peace be upon him, as a ‘son of God’ really
make sense?
Frankly, no. Lots of things Jesus told us didn't make sense to anyone. For
instance, eating His body and drinking His blood.
|
To those that know Jewish teaching it made all the sense in the
world. He pointed to bread and wine, not flesh and blood, the bread
and wine was the type, as bread fed the body and wine was to drink and
since life is made of food and drink, one can not live lone with out
both of them.
You speak for yourself not "anyone".
| Quote: |
Nevertheless, He is the Messiah, and can neither deceive nor be deceived.
|
What is that remark suppose to mean, false not to be false? deceive
nor be deceived. You do not make any sense.
| Quote: |
Take Him for His word.
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Take Him at His Word not for it.
Raymond
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Raymond
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: Re: Son of Who? |
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On Aug 21, 1:18 am, "bam" <mcca5b...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Sorry raymond - I thought you were Ray Fischer.
As for you, you have appointed yourself a New Testament prophet, answering
to no one but God alone.
|
I been told I was a prophet and I would think God does that
aappointments in who is a Prophets it is what they say and did it come
to pass, not just a wish or a maybe. The a true prophet would answer
to God alone, do you see something wrong with that? I met many that
say they are prophet and are not. I do know when God lets me know
what will happen and I told others it has always come to pass, as far
as I know. Then such gifts are not something to ask for lightly, it
is a great responsibility and only the humble and those that are near
to the heart of God would want to have.
| Quote: |
Does it ever amaze you that the Holy Spirit would reveal things to you alone
and no one else? I would never think that about myself - not unless an angel
appeared to me in 3-D, and I'd still have my doubts that it was an angel of
the Lord.
|
I find no problem with God revealing things to me and no one else,
unless it has to do with other people, why should one say anything
about what God has shown a person. I know the Lord at His time, has
shown me what people have done, and if they hear what God has told me
and do such, it comes to past. I known when things would happen, and
change my trip or day of travel only to find it was God, as one time s
overpass and road was knock down by an earthquake and another time I
was told by the Spirit of God to stop pull my car over and rest for 15
minutes, which we did, and then got on the road again. Only to find
many cars and trucks had a big crack up which we would have been in,
if we did not stop to rest. I did not see any need to stop only did
so as I knew the voice of God and knew I had to obey. A prophet could
get himself killed by some folks if he told them what was going to
happen, and if it did, they blame him and go after the prophet for
"cursing them" or some other foolish excuse. I have had angels come
to me and let me know things, and then in just a moment when I turn
away for just a moment they were gone no where to be found. Only what
they told me did happen then the Bible says many could entertain
angels and not even know it, as they aappear to look like common
people, they they ddisappearon you.
| Quote: |
BAM
"Raymond" <rwkn...@aim.com> wrote in message
news:8a8b5a2d-428c-48f9-85ce-f545f7f07541@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 19, 8:04 am, "bam" <mcca5b...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
"Hamady" <ahmd.ma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6db444db-16f3-4314-8722-5d33ba31fc43@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com....
By - Yusuf Estes
Does the belief in Jesus, peace be upon him, as a ‘son of God’ really
make sense?
Frankly, no. Lots of things Jesus told us didn't make sense to anyone. For
instance, eating His body and drinking His blood.
To those that know Jewish teaching it made all the sense in the
world. He pointed to bread and wine, not flesh and blood, the bread
and wine was the type, as bread fed the body and wine was to drink and
since life is made of food and drink, one can not live lone with out
both of them.
You speak for yourself not "anyone".
Nevertheless, He is the Messiah, and can neither deceive nor be deceived.
What is that remark suppose to mean, false not to be false? deceive
nor be deceived. You do not make any sense.
Take Him for His word.
Take Him at His Word not for it.
Raymond
BAM- Hide quoted text -
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