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aio
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 Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: Re religion of Jesus was not Christianity |
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You are right to suggest that the Gnostic's saw the body as a prison
however this only applies to certain situations.
You note
Apocryphon According to John
"And I entered into the midst of their prison, which is the prison of
the body. And I said, 'He who hears, let him get up from the deep sleep."
Yet in that same Apocryphon you have
"And he said to the authorities which attend him, 'Come, let us create a
man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that
his image may become a light for us.' "
"And the power of the mother went out of Yaltabaoth into the natural
body, which they had fashioned after the image of the one who exists
from the beginning. The body moved and gained strength, and it was
luminous."
"And they said to Yaltabaoth, 'Blow into his face something of your
spirit and his body will arise.'"
(this above quote is interesting because this is baptism by
Spirit/Breath instead of the more common baptism by water.)
================================
Their is no doubt that the Gnostic's like the "Orthodox ones" saw the
body as made in the "Image of God" and like the "Orthodox ones" they
saw it as a Temple where one could find God.
Teachings of Silvanus
"You were a temple, (but) you have made yourself a tomb. Cease being a
tomb, and become (again) a temple, so that uprightness and divinity may
remain in you."
"Let Christ alone enter your world, and let him bring to naught all
powers which have come upon you. Let him enter the temple which is
within you, so that he may cast out all the merchants. Let him dwell in
the temple which is within you, and may you become for him a priest and
a Levite, entering in purity."
Do not bring grief and trouble to the divine which is within you.
But when you will care for it, will request of it that you remain pure,
and will become self-controlled in your soul and body, you will become a
throne of wisdom, and one belonging to God's household. He will give you
a great light through it (wisdom).
============================
The problem is that we have two situations
we have Spiritual knowledge and we have Carnal knowledge
we have knowledge of the breath and we have knowledge of the flesh
we have pleasures of the Spirit and Pleasures of the flesh.
We have Breath quickens the flesh and we have the flesh quickens the breath.
Romans
008:011 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead
dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall
also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in
you.
008:006 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually
minded is life and peace.
You have two directions and one can chose either "externals", Flesh and
fleshly pleasures or "within", Spirit and Godly pleasures.
A spiritual man sees a man who is attending to externals and he sees a
man who is in a prison while if he sees another man attentive to his
spirit/breath within then he sees a man who is in a temple and a temple
in which God dwells. The problem with the prison perception of a
person in a body is that to get out of the prison one must go within.
The path to liberation or to God is an inward path not an outward one.
To a man who truly accepts Jesus/God then Jesus/God breaths him he does
not breath himself. This is true and is not a function of religion. The
element that determines which direction one goes is the mind. If the
mind attends to externals then one goes that direction if the mind is
quited and at rest and one attends to ones Spirit/breath then one goes
to God.
AIO
Catawumpus wrote:
| Quote: | aio <mwdarcy@gmail.com>:
Yes Mortification of the flesh to purify the Soul(breath) is common
in many religions but you still need the soul (breath).
Gnosticism in particular (not religion at large) goes well
beyond mere mortification of the flesh by attacking the material
world and describing the body as a prison for the soul.
Clearly the carnal is not the path to the Spiritual. The problem is
that unless you have a carnal body you can not get to God.
In gnosticism the problem is that the spirit is trapped in
the body and in the world more generally: an evil place shaped by
the Demiurge, not by God. Of course the story varies.
Sometimes there are demiurges, plural (the Simonians' malicious
angels, for example), sometimes the world is an exile
or a labyrinth (the thinking of the Valentinians and the
Naasenes respectively), and so forth. Many gnostic schools and
writings, none entirely alike, some of them with their own conflicts. |
But the central world-rejecting, life-denying theme is unmistakable.
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zen gnostic
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:24 am Post subject: Re: Re religion of Jesus was not Christianity |
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On May 16, 10:32 am, aio <mwda...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | You are right to suggest that the Gnostic's saw the body as a prison
however this only applies to certain situations.
You note
Apocryphon According to John
"And I entered into the midst of their prison, which is the prison of
the body. And I said, 'He who hears, let him get up from the deep sleep."
Yet in that same Apocryphon you have
"And he said to the authorities which attend him, 'Come, let us create a
man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that
his image may become a light for us.' "
"And the power of the mother went out of Yaltabaoth into the natural
body, which they had fashioned after the image of the one who exists
from the beginning. The body moved and gained strength, and it was
luminous."
"And they said to Yaltabaoth, 'Blow into his face something of your
spirit and his body will arise.'"
(this above quote is interesting because this is baptism by
Spirit/Breath instead of the more common baptism by water.)
================================
Their is no doubt that the Gnostic's like the "Orthodox ones" saw the
body as made in the "Image of God" and like the "Orthodox ones" they
saw it as a Temple where one could find God.
Teachings of Silvanus
"You were a temple, (but) you have made yourself a tomb. Cease being a
tomb, and become (again) a temple, so that uprightness and divinity may
remain in you."
"Let Christ alone enter your world, and let him bring to naught all
powers which have come upon you. Let him enter the temple which is
within you, so that he may cast out all the merchants. Let him dwell in
the temple which is within you, and may you become for him a priest and
a Levite, entering in purity."
Do not bring grief and trouble to the divine which is within you.
But when you will care for it, will request of it that you remain pure,
and will become self-controlled in your soul and body, you will become a
throne of wisdom, and one belonging to God's household. He will give you
a great light through it (wisdom).
============================
The problem is that we have two situations
we have Spiritual knowledge and we have Carnal knowledge
we have knowledge of the breath and we have knowledge of the flesh
we have pleasures of the Spirit and Pleasures of the flesh.
We have Breath quickens the flesh and we have the flesh quickens the breath.
Romans
008:011 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead
dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall
also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in
you.
008:006 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually
minded is life and peace.
You have two directions and one can chose either "externals", Flesh and
fleshly pleasures or "within", Spirit and Godly pleasures.
A spiritual man sees a man who is attending to externals and he sees a
man who is in a prison while if he sees another man attentive to his
spirit/breath within then he sees a man who is in a temple and a temple
in which God dwells. The problem with the prison perception of a
person in a body is that to get out of the prison one must go within.
The path to liberation or to God is an inward path not an outward one.
To a man who truly accepts Jesus/God then Jesus/God breaths him he does
not breath himself. This is true and is not a function of religion. The
element that determines which direction one goes is the mind. If the
mind attends to externals then one goes that direction if the mind is
quited and at rest and one attends to ones Spirit/breath then one goes
to God.
AIO
Catawumpus wrote:
aio <mwda...@gmail.com>:
Yes Mortification of the flesh to purify the Soul(breath) is common
in many religions but you still need the soul (breath).
Gnosticism in particular (not religion at large) goes well
beyond mere mortification of the flesh by attacking the material
world and describing the body as a prison for the soul.
Clearly the carnal is not the path to the Spiritual. The problem is
that unless you have a carnal body you can not get to God.
In gnosticism the problem is that the spirit is trapped in
the body and in the world more generally: an evil place shaped by
the Demiurge, not by God. Of course the story varies.
Sometimes there are demiurges, plural (the Simonians' malicious
angels, for example), sometimes the world is an exile
or a labyrinth (the thinking of the Valentinians and the
Naasenes respectively), and so forth. Many gnostic schools and
writings, none entirely alike, some of them with their own conflicts.
But the central world-rejecting, life-denying theme is unmistakable.
-- Catawumpus
|
Very well written.
Are you trying to tell us carnal knowledge is a bad thing? Mary
Magdalene may be of another opinion.
BrentB |
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Catawumpus
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: Re religion of Jesus was not Christianity |
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aio <mwdarcy@gmail.com>:
Hi there, Darcy. Would you mind very much if I asked you
not to top-post? Thanks.
| Quote: | You are right to suggest that the Gnostic's saw the body as a prison
however this only applies to certain situations.
|
The gnostics' opinion that the body is a prison applies in
any situation where there are souls trapped in flesh. The
stories vary, as I mentioned before -- many gnostic schools and
writings, no two entirely alike, some divided within
themselves -- so there are other images, too. For instance the
Naasenes describe this world as a labyrinth and the
Valentinians see it as an exile. But the central
world-rejecting, life-denying theme is unmistakable even though
the details differ from place to place.
| Quote: | You note Apocryphon According to John
|
I supplied a whole bunch of examples showing that the body
is a prison or the like in gnosticism, including the
Apocryphon of John, where the archons that reincarnate the soul
"bind it with bonds and cast it into the prison" -- that's
ApJohn 27:7-8 -- and a little later on -- 31:3-4 -- the Pronoia
states, "I entered the midst of their prison, the prison of
the body..." The Gospel of Philip says the soul is "a precious
thing...in a contemptible body" (56:24). The Book of John --
part of the Mandaean writings -- says, "The body holds back its
master from returning home," and the Book of Thomas the
Contender is uncompromising: "Woe to you who hope in the flesh
and in the prison that will perish!" (143:10-1.) Etc.
Shouldn't be any surprise, since gnostics are famously critical
of Creator and Creation.
You answered with something about the mortification of the
flesh in many religions -- but gnosticism is a specific
religious perspective (not religion at large) where the body is
rejected rather than scourged.
In your view "The problem is that unless you have a carnal
body you can not get to God." Sorry if that's been a
difficulty for you, but in gnosticism the trouble is the soul's
imprisonment in the body and in the cosmos generally -- a
crappy place shaped by the Demiurge, not by God. Of course the
story isn't always the same, as I already explained --
sometimes there are multiple demiurges (the world-making angels
of the Simonians), for example -- but broadly speaking the
idea of reaching God is linked with escaping the material world.
| Quote: | Their is no doubt that the Gnostic's like the "Orthodox ones" saw the
body as made in the "Image of God" and like the "Orthodox ones" they
saw it as a Temple where one could find God.
|
There's considerable evidence showing the body is a prison
or otherwise disparged in gnosticism. I've given a whole
string of examples with chapter and verse. You also don't seem
to realize that gnosticism and orthodoxy have drastically
different concepts of God. The orthodox deify the Lord and the
Maker of this world, but the gnostics reduce him from his
status as god supreme to a very inferior demiurge, claiming the
true God is someone else entirely.
| Quote: | Teachings of Silvanus
|
Not a gnostic writing. The Nag Hammadi Library (where the
Teachings of Silvanus comes from) has a range of things:
gnosticism, Hermeticism, wisdom-teachings, even some of Plato's
_Republic_.
| Quote: | Apocryphon According to John
"And I entered into the midst of their prison, which is the prison of
the body. And I said, 'He who hears, let him get up from the deep sleep."
|
Uh-huh. "The prison of the body." And the archons which
reincarnate the soul are said to "bind it with bonds and
cast it into the prison." Once again the body is described as
a jail.
| Quote: | Yet in that same Apocryphon you have
"And he said to the authorities which attend him, 'Come, let us create a
man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that
his image may become a light for us.' "
|
Yet nothing. In the ApJohn, the body _isn't_ made by God
-- an obvious contrast to orthodoxy -- but rather by
Yaldabaoth, an evil demiurge, and the other archons (those are
the "authorities" in the Wisse translation that you're
quoting from). Needless to say, they do a very poor job. You
wrongly claim that they made a "temple of the soul." The
ApJohn says your supposed temple is full of demons. In ApJohn
18:2-30 we're informed about "the wellspring of the demons
that are all in the body" and told, "the mother of them all is
matter," here named Onorthokhrasaei.
So no, the archons _don't_ make a man in the image of God
despite what they say. Instead they create a demon-ridden
body far too much like _them_ ("according to our likeness," in
case you didn't notice what you quoted). It's highly
defective in another way, too: it can't budge. ApJohn
19:10-14 says, "For a long time their product existed inactive
and immovable."
| Quote: | "And the power of the mother went out of Yaltabaoth into the natural
body, which they had fashioned after the image of the one who exists
from the beginning. The body moved and gained strength, and it was
luminous."
|
See? The body made by the archons doesn't move until the
demiurge blows into it the power that he had stolen from
Sophia, his mom. Part of the story you skipped explains she's
taking the opportunity to get it back. But that plan
requires putting the power, or spirit, into the demon-infested
body made by Yaldabaoth and the other archons, bringing us
back to the theme of the body as a prison, exactly what you're
trying to avoid. So long as the spirit remains trapped in
the flesh it's a prisoner of the archons, who do their best to
keep it chained there.
-- Catawumpus |
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Catawumpus
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Re religion of Jesus was not Christianity |
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zen gnostic <borgersbrent@yahoo.com>:
aio <mwdarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | The problem is that we have two situations ...
Very well written.
|
Poorly written and badly mistaken. Darcy there is getting
his own preaching mixed up with gnosticism and replying
unhappily when shown the difference. He or she thinks the body
is the temple of the soul, while the gnostic perspective
typically disparages the body and the material world in general.
For instance, the body is called a prison, and the Lord and
Creator of this world is lowered all the way from supreme deity
to inferior demiurge.
| Quote: | Are you trying to tell us carnal knowledge is a bad thing? Mary
Magdalene may be of another opinion.
|
Sure. Or then again that might be exactly the opinion she
holds.
-- Catawumpus |
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Heideana
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Re religion of Jesus was not Christianity |
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On May 17, 1:26 am, Catawumpus <kimmer...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
| Quote: | zen gnostic <borgersbr...@yahoo.com>:
aio <mwda...@gmail.com> wrote:
The problem is that we have two situations ...
Very well written.
Poorly written and badly mistaken. Darcy there is getting
his own preaching mixed up with gnosticism and replying
unhappily when shown the difference. He or she thinks the body
is the temple of the soul, while the gnostic perspective
typically disparages the body and the material world in general.
For instance, the body is called a prison, and the Lord and
Creator of this world is lowered all the way from supreme deity
to inferior demiurge.
Are you trying to tell us carnal knowledge is a bad thing? Mary
Magdalene may be of another opinion.
Sure. Or then again that might be exactly the opinion she
holds.
-- Catawumpus
|
Would this position of seeing the body as flawed or inferior allow for
"prescriptions", such as entaligens or technology, to make up for the
flaws that block our connection with God or consciousness of God? |
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Heideana
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Re religion of Jesus was not Christianity |
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Apologies if this is a resend of my reply...The initial reply I sent
seems to have become lost in cyberspace....
_________________________________________________________
Does this view of the body as flawed or inferior allow for "fixing" or
repairing the flaws with entheogens or technology that would otherwise
block our awareness or connection with God? |
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Catawumpus
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Re religion of Jesus was not Christianity |
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Heideana <heideana@pacbell.net>:
| Quote: | Would this position of seeing the body as flawed or inferior allow for
"prescriptions", such as entaligens or technology, to make up for the
flaws that block our connection with God or consciousness of God?
|
What are entaligens? Dunno about them, but otherwise, yes.
I'm going to save myself some trouble by re-posting the
comments Leper and Dreamsnake offered when the topic of gnostic
practices came up before.
penitent leper <bastaschs@peak.org>:
Elaine Pagels, The Gnostic Gospels, Random House
Vintage, NY 1981, pp. 163-169 - practices performed
to receive Gnostic wisdom:
Zostrianos - removed himself from physical desires,
reduced mental chaos, received a vision, retreated
into the wilderness, received more visions.
The Discourse on the Eighth and the Ninth - moral
effort, dedication, prayer, chanting sacred words and
vowels, ecstatic state, hymn of silence, realization
of Mind.
The Allogenes - meditative chanting, discovery of the
inner Good, knowing of the self, ascent to Vitality
and Existence, stilling the mind, knowing the one
dwelling in the self, urge to seek the
"uncontainable, ineffable, unknown", warning from
"Powers" to seek no further.
Elsewhere Pagels describes the transformative
function of Gnostic sacraments. Hope the above
examples are helpful.
dreamsnake89@yahoo.com (Dreamsnake):
Meditation on images should perhaps be added, if the
Gnostic gems, sigils in the Books of Jeu, and the
Ophite diagram had a purpose besides teaching or rote
magical protection. The many beautiful Manichean
images might conceivably also have been used for
meditation. No, Ihave no direct evidence for
this, but the Manicheana were strongly influenced by
Buddhism and could have acquired the practice.
The Acts of John has a dance scene, possibly a
reference to actual sacred dance.
Gnostics probably held sacred meals, though I cannot
think of any direct evidence offhand.
The Valentinians had baptism and anointing,
discussed in short NHL passages. See also On the
Origin of the World 111, which talks about the oil
of the olive tree in passing.
The Gospel of Philip discusses the inner meanings
of some Gnostic sacraments and practices, from
which you can infer what the external actions were.
I believe, in general, that ancient Gnosticism was
more attentive to external actions relating to
purity and magic than most of the new agers like to
think. I do not mean this as a deprecation-- even
seemingly simple acts like anointing can help
transform consciousness, if done mindfully in a
ritual setting.
I'd add the Phibionites, who practiced ritual sex but were
firmly against procreation. (Epiphanius in the _Panarion_
26.5.2: "Although they have intercourse with one another, they
forbid childbearing.") They rejected the body and the
material world in general, but they used sex both as an offense
to demiurge and as a path beyond him, a means to "lift up
their blasphemy to heaven," in Epiphanius' phrase. Pan. 26.4.5
-- Catawumpus |
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Catawumpus
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Re religion of Jesus was not Christianity |
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Catawumpus <kimmerian@fastmail.fm>:
| Quote: | penitent leper <bastaschs@peak.org>:
The Discourse on the Eighth and the Ninth
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Oops, not sure if that one belongs. Hermetic text, cousin
to gnosticism but not the same thing.
-- C. |
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zen gnostic
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Re religion of Jesus was not Christianity |
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On May 17, 3:26 am, Catawumpus <kimmer...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
| Quote: | zen gnostic <borgersbr...@yahoo.com>:
aio <mwda...@gmail.com> wrote:
The problem is that we have two situations ...
Very well written.
Poorly written and badly mistaken. Darcy there is getting
his own preaching mixed up with gnosticism and replying
unhappily when shown the difference. He or she thinks the body
is the temple of the soul, while the gnostic perspective
typically disparages the body and the material world in general.
|
As someone who has dealt with a chronic health problems most of my
life and have seen what the world does to such as ourselves I would
agree with the disparage remark. That said...As a way to overcome my
health problems I have treated my body as a temple. By using the best
of what nature has provided to nourish and treat my body I've come a
long way to overcoming my health issue. Do you wish that I not do so
and decline in health until death? no thanks.
| Quote: | For instance, the body is called a prison, and the Lord and
Creator of this world is lowered all the way from supreme deity
to inferior demiurge.
Are you trying to tell us carnal knowledge is a bad thing? Mary
Magdalene may be of another opinion.
Sure. Or then again that might be exactly the opinion she
holds.
-- Catawumpus
|
The gnostic texts I recall reading reveal Jesus as a mortal man with
mortal desires so I am inclined to believe the stories of Mary and
Jesus. |
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Heideana
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Re religion of Jesus was not Christianity |
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On May 19, 12:05 am, Catawumpus <kimmer...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
| Quote: | Heideana <heide...@pacbell.net>:
Would this position of seeing the body as flawed or inferior allow for
"prescriptions", such as entaligens or technology, to make up for the
flaws that block our connection with God or consciousness of God?
What are entaligens? Dunno about them, but otherwise, yes.
I'm going to save myself some trouble by re-posting the
comments Leper and Dreamsnake offered when the topic of gnostic
practices came up before.
penitent leper <bastas...@peak.org>:
Elaine Pagels, The Gnostic Gospels, Random House
Vintage, NY 1981, pp. 163-169 - practices performed
to receive Gnostic wisdom:
Zostrianos - removed himself from physical desires,
reduced mental chaos, received a vision, retreated
into the wilderness, received more visions.
The Discourse on the Eighth and the Ninth - moral
effort, dedication, prayer, chanting sacred words and
vowels, ecstatic state, hymn of silence, realization
of Mind.
The Allogenes - meditative chanting, discovery of the
inner Good, knowing of the self, ascent to Vitality
and Existence, stilling the mind, knowing the one
dwelling in the self, urge to seek the
"uncontainable, ineffable, unknown", warning from
"Powers" to seek no further.
Elsewhere Pagels describes the transformative
function of Gnostic sacraments. Hope the above
examples are helpful.
dreamsnak...@yahoo.com (Dreamsnake):
Meditation on images should perhaps be added, if the
Gnostic gems, sigils in the Books of Jeu, and the
Ophite diagram had a purpose besides teaching or rote
magical protection. The many beautiful Manichean
images might conceivably also have been used for
meditation. No, Ihave no direct evidence for
this, but the Manicheana were strongly influenced by
Buddhism and could have acquired the practice.
The Acts of John has a dance scene, possibly a
reference to actual sacred dance.
Gnostics probably held sacred meals, though I cannot
think of any direct evidence offhand.
The Valentinians had baptism and anointing,
discussed in short NHL passages. See also On the
Origin of the World 111, which talks about the oil
of the olive tree in passing.
The Gospel of Philip discusses the inner meanings
of some Gnostic sacraments and practices, from
which you can infer what the external actions were.
I believe, in general, that ancient Gnosticism was
more attentive to external actions relating to
purity and magic than most of the new agers like to
think. I do not mean this as a deprecation-- even
seemingly simple acts like anointing can help
transform consciousness, if done mindfully in a
ritual setting.
I'd add the Phibionites, who practiced ritual sex but were
firmly against procreation. (Epiphanius in the _Panarion_
26.5.2: "Although they have intercourse with one another, they
forbid childbearing.") They rejected the body and the
material world in general, but they used sex both as an offense
to demiurge and as a path beyond him, a means to "lift up
their blasphemy to heaven," in Epiphanius' phrase. Pan. 26.4.5
-- Catawumpus
|
Thanks for the reply Catawumpus. Entaligens are conscious-altering
drugs or substances used for religious purposes of connecting with
God, i.e. psychedelics...based on your answer, I suspect they are
ok?
It is a funny thought that humans can learn to manipulate the
demiurge's creation. i.e., the body, as a way of connecting with
God...I suspect I'm being too simplistic about it, apologies for my
simplistic mind...  |
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mwda
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Re religion of Jesus was not Christianity |
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Sorry about the repeat post for I could not see the original one when I
looked so I posted again. The post for some reason took several days
to show up. I thought my server had stopped the posting to newsgroups.
You are really committed to the Body/prison thing though I will admit
their are references that would support an understanding similar to
yours but certainly not as absolute as you seem to make it. I don't
agree with your take on Gnosticism at all.
I keep noting and you seem to ignore the fact that "spirit" means breath
and breath does require a body. You are right to point out that some
Gnostic writings (for their is many inconsistency's in Gnosticism as
their is in all religions)seem to see the body as created by a
collection of forces not a single God but still saw the Image as that of
a single God.
----------------
Apocryphon According to John
"And he said to the authorities which attend him, 'Come, let us create a
man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that
his image may become a light for us.' "
The Hypostasis of the Archons
They had taken some soil from the earth and modeled their man after
their body and after the image of God that had appeared to them in the
waters.
------------------
However in the area of the Temple I think you are clearly wrong.
============================
Teachings of Silvanus
"You were a temple, (but) you have made yourself a tomb. Cease being a
tomb, and become (again) a temple, so that uprightness and divinity may
remain in you."
"Let Christ alone enter your world, and let him bring to naught all
powers which have come upon you. Let him enter the temple which is
within you, so that he may cast out all the merchants. Let him dwell in
the temple which is within you, and may you become for him a priest and
a Levite, entering in purity."
Do not bring grief and trouble to the divine which is within you.
But when you will care for it, will request of it that you remain pure,
and will become self-controlled in your soul and body, you will become a
throne of wisdom, and one belonging to God's household. He will give you
a great light through it (wisdom).
==========================
But lets be clear their is not consistency in these perceptions and it
is wrong to treat it as if it is one consistent work for it is not. The
Gnostic Gospels are a great addition to many works connected with early
Christianity as long as we don't try to make them a doctrine as the
orthodox ones did with the Gospels in the bible.
Concerning the carnal I certainly do not believe as Thomas though I
think I see where he is coming from.
==========================
Book of Thomas the Contender
"Watch and pray that you not come to be in the flesh, but rather that
you come forth from the bondage of the bitterness of this life. And as
you pray, you will find rest, for you have left behind the suffering and
the disgrace. For when you come forth from the sufferings and passions
of the body, you will receive rest from the good one, and you will reign
with the king, you joined with him and he with you, from now on, for
ever and ever, Amen."
"Woe to you who love intimacy with womankind and polluted intercourse
with them! Woe to you in the grip of the powers of your body, for they
will afflict you! Woe to you in the grip of the forces of the evil
demons! Woe to you who beguile your limbs with fire!
"things that are visible, but they are visible in their own root, and it
is their fruit that nourishes them. But these visible bodies survive by
devouring creatures similar to them with the result that the bodies
change. Now that which changes will decay and perish, and has no hope of
life from then on, since that body is bestial. So just as the body of
the beasts perishes, so also will these formations perish. Do they not
derive from intercourse like that of the beasts? If it, too derives from
intercourse, how will it beget anything different from beasts? So,
therefore, you are babes until you become perfect."
====================
As I have noted before you can look at a person attaching
himself/herself to carnal things and point out as many have that this
attachment is domed for it is connected with that which will decay. I
think the word corrupted is misread for in modern thought decay is not
the same as corruption. In the natural order of things decay is essential.
Catawumpus wrote:
| Quote: | aio <mwdarcy@gmail.com>:
Hi there, Darcy. Would you mind very much if I asked you
not to top-post? Thanks.
You are right to suggest that the Gnostic's saw the body as a prison
however this only applies to certain situations.
The gnostics' opinion that the body is a prison applies in
any situation where there are souls trapped in flesh. The
stories vary, as I mentioned before -- many gnostic schools and
writings, no two entirely alike, some divided within
themselves -- so there are other images, too. For instance the
Naasenes describe this world as a labyrinth and the
Valentinians see it as an exile. But the central
world-rejecting, life-denying theme is unmistakable even though
the details differ from place to place.
You note Apocryphon According to John
I supplied a whole bunch of examples showing that the body
is a prison or the like in gnosticism, including the
Apocryphon of John, where the archons that reincarnate the soul
"bind it with bonds and cast it into the prison" -- that's
ApJohn 27:7-8 -- and a little later on -- 31:3-4 -- the Pronoia
states, "I entered the midst of their prison, the prison of
the body..." The Gospel of Philip says the soul is "a precious
thing...in a contemptible body" (56:24). The Book of John --
part of the Mandaean writings -- says, "The body holds back its
master from returning home," and the Book of Thomas the
Contender is uncompromising: "Woe to you who hope in the flesh
and in the prison that will perish!" (143:10-1.) Etc.
Shouldn't be any surprise, since gnostics are famously critical
of Creator and Creation.
You answered with something about the mortification of the
flesh in many religions -- but gnosticism is a specific
religious perspective (not religion at large) where the body is
rejected rather than scourged.
In your view "The problem is that unless you have a carnal
body you can not get to God." Sorry if that's been a
difficulty for you, but in gnosticism the trouble is the soul's
imprisonment in the body and in the cosmos generally -- a
crappy place shaped by the Demiurge, not by God. Of course the
story isn't always the same, as I already explained --
sometimes there are multiple demiurges (the world-making angels
of the Simonians), for example -- but broadly speaking the
idea of reaching God is linked with escaping the material world.
Their is no doubt that the Gnostic's like the "Orthodox ones" saw the
body as made in the "Image of God" and like the "Orthodox ones" they
saw it as a Temple where one could find God.
There's considerable evidence showing the body is a prison
or otherwise disparged in gnosticism. I've given a whole
string of examples with chapter and verse. You also don't seem
to realize that gnosticism and orthodoxy have drastically
different concepts of God. The orthodox deify the Lord and the
Maker of this world, but the gnostics reduce him from his
status as god supreme to a very inferior demiurge, claiming the
true God is someone else entirely.
Teachings of Silvanus
Not a gnostic writing. The Nag Hammadi Library (where the
Teachings of Silvanus comes from) has a range of things:
gnosticism, Hermeticism, wisdom-teachings, even some of Plato's
_Republic_.
Apocryphon According to John
"And I entered into the midst of their prison, which is the prison of
the body. And I said, 'He who hears, let him get up from the deep sleep."
Uh-huh. "The prison of the body." And the archons which
reincarnate the soul are said to "bind it with bonds and
cast it into the prison." Once again the body is described as
a jail.
Yet in that same Apocryphon you have
"And he said to the authorities which attend him, 'Come, let us create a
man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that
his image may become a light for us.' "
Yet nothing. In the ApJohn, the body _isn't_ made by God
-- an obvious contrast to orthodoxy -- but rather by
Yaldabaoth, an evil demiurge, and the other archons (those are
the "authorities" in the Wisse translation that you're
quoting from). Needless to say, they do a very poor job. You
wrongly claim that they made a "temple of the soul." The
ApJohn says your supposed temple is full of demons. In ApJohn
18:2-30 we're informed about "the wellspring of the demons
that are all in the body" and told, "the mother of them all is
matter," here named Onorthokhrasaei.
So no, the archons _don't_ make a man in the image of God
despite what they say. Instead they create a demon-ridden
body far too much like _them_ ("according to our likeness," in
case you didn't notice what you quoted). It's highly
defective in another way, too: it can't budge. ApJohn
19:10-14 says, "For a long time their product existed inactive
and immovable."
"And the power of the mother went out of Yaltabaoth into the natural
body, which they had fashioned after the image of the one who exists
from the beginning. The body moved and gained strength, and it was
luminous."
See? The body made by the archons doesn't move until the
demiurge blows into it the power that he had stolen from
Sophia, his mom. Part of the story you skipped explains she's
taking the opportunity to get it back. But that plan
requires putting the power, or spirit, into the demon-infested
body made by Yaldabaoth and the other archons, bringing us
back to the theme of the body as a prison, exactly what you're
trying to avoid. So long as the spirit remains trapped in
the flesh it's a prisoner of the archons, who do their best to
keep it chained there.
-- Catawumpus |
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Catawumpus
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Re religion of Jesus was not Christianity |
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mwda <mwdarcy@gmail.com>:
| Quote: | Sorry about the repeat post for I could not see the original one when I
looked so I posted again. The post for some reason took several days
to show up. I thought my server had stopped the posting to newsgroups.
|
Not a problem. Happens to everyone. Usenet can be quirky.
But I wish you'd stop top-posting. That goes double since
you're now repeating your claims while ignoring the errors I've
pointed out to you.
| Quote: | You are really committed to the Body/prison thing though I will admit
their are references that would support an understanding similar to
|
Weak admission. Gnosticism doesn't just contain something
related to the idea the body is a prison: it's there in so
many words, as I've already showed. The ApJohn refers directly
to "the prison of the body" (ApJohn 31:3-4) and the archons
which reincarnate the soul "bind it with bonds and cast it into
the prison." (ApJohn 27:7-8.) The Book of Thomas the
Contender curses those who "hope in the flesh and in the prison
that will perish!" (143:10-1). The Gospel of Philip labels
the body "contemptible" (56:24), The Book of John says it holds
back the soul, etc.
| Quote: | yours but certainly not as absolute as you seem to make it.
|
You're the only one talking about absolutes. I repeatedly
explained to you about the number of gnostic schools and
writings, no two entirely alike, some divided within themselves.
| Quote: | I don't agree with your take on Gnosticism at all.
|
I didn't ask if you agreed. I showed where and how you're
mistaken.
| Quote: | I keep noting and you seem to ignore the fact that "spirit" means breath
and breath does require a body.
|
I should've corrected you there, too. The word translated
"spirit" is _pneuma_. Breath is merely one its several
meanings, along with spirit, wind, etc. -- _not_ the only sense
of the term.
| Quote: | You are right to point out that some
Gnostic writings (for their is many inconsistency's in Gnosticism as
their is in all religions)seem to see the body as created by a
collection of forces not a single God but still saw the Image as that of
a single God.
|
You ain't getting it, dude. I pointed out that gnosticism
divides the Creator of this world, who's reduced from god
supreme to crappy demiurge, from the true God, corresponding to
the gnostics' critical view of the Creation, typically
described as a prison, exile, or labyrinth. Far from your idea
the body is the temple of the soul.
| Quote: | Apocryphon According to John
"And he said to the authorities which attend him, 'Come, let us create a
man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that
his image may become a light for us.' "
|
You tried that one already. Again, the "authorities" said
to be making man are the evil demiurge -- here named
Yaldabaoth -- and his pals. They do a bad job. Instead of the
temple of the soul you wrongly insist on, they create a
demon-infested body. ApJohn 18:2-30 talks about "the
wellspring of the demons that are all in the body" and says the
"the mother of them all is matter" going by the name
Onorthokhrasaei. Which makes sense, since if you'd bothered to
read the line you keep quoting you'd have seen that the
archons are trying to make man in _their_ likeness, not only in
God's.
| Quote: | The Hypostasis of the Archons
They had taken some soil from the earth and modeled their man after
their body and after the image of God that had appeared to them in the
waters.
|
There again the body is made by the demiurge, described as
blinded by power, ignorant, and arrogant, along with the
lesser archons, who are creating in _their_ own image, not only
in the image of God.
| Quote: | However in the area of the Temple I think you are clearly wrong.
|
The mistake is clearly yours, same as it was last time and
the one before.
| Quote: | Teachings of Silvanus
|
Not a gnostic writing. The Nag Hammadi Library (where the
Teachings of Silvanus comes from) has a range of things:
gnosticism, Hermeticism, wisdom-teachings, even some of Plato's
_Republic_.
| Quote: | As I have noted before you can look at a person attaching
himself/herself to carnal things and point out as many have that this
attachment is domed for it is connected with that which will decay. I
think the word corrupted is misread for in modern thought decay is not
the same as corruption. In the natural order of things decay is essential.
|
Gnosticism rejects the natural order along with its ruling
god or gods.
-- Catawumpus |
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Catawumpus
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Re religion of Jesus was not Christianity |
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zen gnostic <borgersbrent@yahoo.com>:
| Quote: | As someone who has dealt with a chronic health problems most of my
life and have seen what the world does to such as ourselves I would
agree with the disparage remark. That said...As a way to overcome my
health problems I have treated my body as a temple. By using the best
of what nature has provided to nourish and treat my body I've come a
long way to overcoming my health issue. Do you wish that I not do so
and decline in health until death? no thanks.
|
So far as I'm concerned, how you cope with your bad health
is entirely up to you. My point is about gnosticism, where
the body is a prison, not a temple, and the material world more
generally is the work of an inferior demiurge rather than a
divine creation, a place to escape from, not a place of worship.
| Quote: | The gnostic texts I recall reading reveal Jesus as a mortal man with
mortal desires so I am inclined to believe the stories of Mary and
Jesus.
|
Either you didn't go far in your reading or your memory is
misleading you. Docetism -- the idea Jesus is a purely
spiritual, immaterial being, a visitor from the heavens instead
of a mortal man -- is one of the best-known themes in
gnosticism. Some examples: Saturninus ("The Saviour was
without birth, without body, and without figure," Irenaeus, Adv.
Haer. 1.24.2), the Archontics ("his body did not exist but
rather was shown forth in appearance," Epiphanius, the Panarion
40.8.2), the Gnostics ("he did not take on flesh, but only
existed in appearance," Panarion 26.10.5), Valentinus' disciple
Ptolemy ("he did not take anything material," Irenaeus, AH
1.6.1), and Marcion ("he maintains that Christ was a
phantasm," Tertullian, _Adversus Marcionem_ 3.8.1). Even turns
up once or twice in the canon.
-- Catawumpus |
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Catawumpus
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Re religion of Jesus was not Christianity |
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Catawumpus <kimmerian@fastmail.fm>:
| Quote: | The Phibionites ... practiced ritual sex but were
firmly against procreation. (Epiphanius in the _Panarion_
26.5.2: "Although they have intercourse with one another, they
forbid childbearing.") They rejected the body and the
material world in general, but they used sex both as an offense
to the demiurge and as a path beyond him, a way to "lift up
their blasphemy to heaven," in Epiphanius' phrase. Pan. 26.4.5
|
Heideana <heideana@pacbell.net>:
| Quote: | Thanks for the reply Catawumpus. Entaligens are conscious-altering
drugs or substances used for religious purposes of connecting with
God, i.e. psychedelics...based on your answer, I suspect they are
ok?
|
Ah, thanks for explaining. I'm with you now. Can't think
of anything on the topic offhand, aside from the Church Dad
Ignatius' advice to "abstain from all strange herbage, which is
heresy," but I'd guess ye olde gnosticks' position on
psychedelics would be analogous to their attitudes to sex: the
ascetically-inclined would probably say no, but libertines
like the Phibionites would most likely agree they can be a good
thing.
| Quote: | It is a funny thought that humans can learn to manipulate the
demiurge's creation. i.e., the body, as a way of connecting with
God...I suspect I'm being too simplistic about it, apologies for my
simplistic mind...
|
Seems like a very sharp idea to me: turning the Creator's
work against him, using elements of the Creation -- let's
call them sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll -- to get past the guards
at its borders.
-- Catawumpus |
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zen gnostic
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Re religion of Jesus was not Christianity |
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On May 20, 3:05 am, Catawumpus <kimmer...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
| Quote: | zen gnostic <borgersbr...@yahoo.com>:
As someone who has dealt with a chronic health problems most of my
life and have seen what the world does to such as ourselves I would
agree with the disparage remark. That said...As a way to overcome my
health problems I have treated my body as a temple. By using the best
of what nature has provided to nourish and treat my body I've come a
long way to overcoming my health issue. Do you wish that I not do so
and decline in health until death? no thanks.
So far as I'm concerned, how you cope with your bad health
is entirely up to you. My point is about gnosticism, where
the body is a prison, not a temple, and the material world more
generally is the work of an inferior demiurge rather than a
divine creation, a place to escape from, not a place of worship.
|
Yet the demiurge has given me the tools to treat myself. Maybe he's
not such a bad guy after all...
| Quote: |
The gnostic texts I recall reading reveal Jesus as a mortal man with
mortal desires so I am inclined to believe the stories of Mary and
Jesus.
Either you didn't go far in your reading or your memory is
misleading you. Docetism -- the idea Jesus is a purely
spiritual, immaterial being, a visitor from the heavens instead
of a mortal man -- is one of the best-known themes in
gnosticism. Some examples: Saturninus ("The Saviour was
without birth, without body, and without figure," Irenaeus, Adv.
Haer. 1.24.2), the Archontics ("his body did not exist but
rather was shown forth in appearance," Epiphanius, the Panarion
40.8.2), the Gnostics ("he did not take on flesh, but only
existed in appearance," Panarion 26.10.5), Valentinus' disciple
Ptolemy ("he did not take anything material," Irenaeus, AH
1.6.1), and Marcion ("he maintains that Christ was a
phantasm," Tertullian, _Adversus Marcionem_ 3.8.1). Even turns
up once or twice in the canon.
-- Catawumpus
|
You reference the tripled powered one that is "Jesus" or
"Christos"...perhaps I should have been more clear. I refer to the
gnostic gospels such as Philip and it's description of Mary and her
companionship to the man Jesus. It shows a very humanizing aspect of
Jesus does it not? |
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