| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Poststructuralist
Guest
|
 Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:17 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
 |
|
Douglas McAdam wrote:
| Quote: | Yes I know you know where I got this idea from and maybe that is the
problem because from my view and all of the Baha'is I know and consult
with they agree and not all of them know where I got this from. Besides
where I got it from matter not. What matters is whether it is true or
not and I asked you to tell me of another way in which we attain
knowledge and you gave an example of social construction which to me is
gained also by those three ways.
|
I disagree that it does not matter. In order to understand the three
types of learning you mentioned, it is important to consider the source,
i.e., to place it into context. In other words, it was not an idea you
came up with on your own. You obtained it from Lippitt and, especially,
her Successful Self Direction Program.
| Quote: | So are you saying we have four ways to attain knowledge, i.e. Discovery
,
Experience, Revelation and from Nowhere? How is the knowledge from
"nowhere" acquired?
|
No. I do not, by and large, accept Lippitt's epistemic model. My point
was not to add to her model but to find an exception (which you invited
me to do).
| Quote: | I'm puzzled by some of your responses, like there is no such thing as
"common thinking", no such thing as "people", no such thing as "reality
"
and no there is knowledge that comes from "nowhere".
|
I never said that there is no such thing as "common thinking." In fact,
I said the opposite. In terms of "people" and reality," what I have
written is that I regard them as categories or names.
| Quote: | Again, no offense intended but sometimes when I read some of these post
s
I feel like I'm back in Phil. 101 with the Existentialist atheist
professor.
|
I am neither an existentialist nor an atheist. Existentialism is a form
of personalist realism.
| Quote: | Mark I think for myself and my thoughts are derived from many sources
not just Marian Lippitt and I have asked you many times to not bring he
r
work into these limited forums. This has nothing to do with the
discussion as to whether there are more than three ways to learn things
and so I'm not sure why you mention it.
|
Doug, yes, but those three modes of learning came from Marian Lippitt. I
have read it myself.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
|
| |
|
 Back to top |
Poststructuralist
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:30 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
|
|
Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | I am certain you can see how that does not answer the question, does no
t
even try. Apparently you want to drop your assertion that "`Abdu'l-Bah
a's
discussion of the subject relies as much on Neoplatonic terminology as
it
does on the terms of Charles Darwin and Thomas Henry Huxley. IMO, it is
more
than classifying what He believed. It is placing them in their proper
contexts."
|
What makes you think I want to drop those assertions? By context, I was
referring to Neoplatonism, Huxley, etc.
| Quote: | Perhaps you still believe "Abdu'l-Baha's discussion is colored by preva
lent
philosophical terminology and conceptualities, but you are just droppin
g the
assertion that contexting is more, or more important, than classifying.
If
that is so, I agree, you should drop that assertion.
|
Contextualized within. No, I have never dropped that assertion.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:22 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
|
|
Hi Mark,
You ask: "What makes you think I want to drop those assertions?"
Because you didn't answer the clear question.
--Kent
"Poststructuralist" <drfosternotfromgloucester@nospamgmail.com> wrote in
message news:k5OdnYYrc-nh5hbVnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@giganews.com...
Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | I am certain you can see how that does not answer the question, does no
t
even try. Apparently you want to drop your assertion that "`Abdu'l-Bah
a's
discussion of the subject relies as much on Neoplatonic terminology as
it
does on the terms of Charles Darwin and Thomas Henry Huxley. IMO, it is
more
than classifying what He believed. It is placing them in their proper
contexts."
|
What makes you think I want to drop those assertions? By context, I was
referring to Neoplatonism, Huxley, etc.
| Quote: | Perhaps you still believe "Abdu'l-Baha's discussion is colored by preva
lent
philosophical terminology and conceptualities, but you are just droppin
g the
assertion that contexting is more, or more important, than classifying.
If
that is so, I agree, you should drop that assertion.
|
Contextualized within. No, I have never dropped that assertion.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:27 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
|
|
Hi Susan,
| Quote: | "Classifying" was your language not Mark's to begin with.
|
I said classifying, he replied: "it is more than classifying what He
believed. It is placing them in their proper contexts."
I asked how and have received no clear answer.
Thanks for reading. --Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:uv6dnWGN8IcW6BbVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
Perhaps you still believe "Abdu'l-Baha's discussion is colored by
prevalent
philosophical terminology and conceptualities, but you are just dropping
the
assertion that contexting is more, or more important, than classifying.
If
that is so, I agree, you should drop that assertion.
Kent,
"Classifying" was your language not Mark's to begin with.
Susan
|
|
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Poststructuralist
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:44 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
|
|
Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | I asked how and have received no clear answer.
|
Kent:
As I suggested, one also needs to place His comments into the contexts
of Neoplatonism (specifically: involution) and the views of Darwin and
Huxley. If you are looking for a more detailed description, I will try
to provide it.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Susan Maneck
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
|
|
| Quote: | "Classifying" was your language not Mark's to begin with.
I said classifying, he replied: "it is more than classifying what He
believed. It is placing them in their proper contexts."
|
Dear Kent,
I would take that as a rejection of your use of the word 'classifying'
as descriptive of what Mark was saying.
| Quote: |
I asked how and have received no clear answer.
|
Sometimes you just wear people out.
Susan |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Poststructuralist
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:10 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
|
|
Douglas McAdam wrote:
| Quote: | How is the knowledge from "nowhere" acquired? ...
and no there is knowledge that comes from "nowhere".
|
Hi, Doug:
To add to what I wrote before, the concept of the social construction of
knowledge originated in Peter Berger's (phenomenological) sociology of
knowledge. The basic idea is that knowledge originates through a process
of intersubjectivity, which is, simply stated, a term referring to how
actors (people in interaction) come to understand the intentions of one
another.
Knowledge is not regarded as an acquisition but as a mentality, a way of
thinking, which emerges from social interaction and communication. What
we think we know is, therefore, relative to whatever group we happen to
be involved in. From this standpoint, there is no absolute, universal,
or direct knowledge of phenomena (our observations). All of our
knowledge is situated, grounded in, or based upon, particular situations.
The social construction of knowledge presumes that everything we know is
relative and is in agreement with my understanding, at least, of Shoghi
Effendi's idea of the relativity of truth.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
|
|
Hi Mark,
Your "also" suggests that you also see classification, which is the
clarification I asked about.
I am seeking to find out why you (repeatedly) distinguish to some extent
between classification and context, and what is the reason for it.
So, in this case, you said "IMO, it is more than classifying what He
believed. It is placing them in their proper contexts."
I asked: "How does placing His beliefs in the proper context differ from
classifying His beliefs?"
Perhaps, based upon what you have said recently, you believe a 1913
philosophical understanding of xyz creationism as opposed to a 1956
philosophical understanding of xyz creationism, is a contextualized
philosophical understanding of xyz creationism. Is that it?
--Kent
"Poststructuralist" <drfosternotfromgloucester@nospamgmail.com> wrote in
message news:8rmdnVg7ro6tBhbVnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@giganews.com...
Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | I asked how and have received no clear answer.
|
Kent:
As I suggested, one also needs to place His comments into the contexts
of Neoplatonism (specifically: involution) and the views of Darwin and
Huxley. If you are looking for a more detailed description, I will try
to provide it.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Poststructuralist
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes |
|
|
Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | Your "also" suggests that you also see classification, which
is the clarification I asked about.
|
I was acknowledging what you wrote, but I really did not give the
subject any thought at the time. The closest I have come to
classification is with my Structurizing paper:
http://structurizing.structurization.com
However, as I point out there, I do not take the classification scheme I
use very seriously.
| Quote: | I am seeking to find out why you (repeatedly) distinguish
to some extent between classification and context, and
what is the reason for it.
|
Classification is like a concordance (a word index) or a subject index.
However, if the reader does not understand what those words or subjects
would likely have meant to the original reader (in a different time
period or in a different culture), the intention behind the words or
subjects might be lost.
| Quote: | I asked: "How does placing His beliefs in the proper context
differ from classifying His beliefs?"
|
Hopefully, what I just wrote clarifies it.
| Quote: | Perhaps, based upon what you have said recently, you believe a 1913
philosophical understanding of xyz creationism as opposed to a 1956
philosophical understanding of xyz creationism, is a contextualized
philosophical understanding of xyz creationism. Is that it?
|
I have never seen any version of creationism which I agree with.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:09 am Post subject: Re: The belief, not the person |
|
|
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com>
| Quote: | Apparently the point of the Baha'i Faith is to freeze at whatever
spiritual
state we are in the moment we recognize Baha'u'llah, and in our raptured
complacency, wait for others to accept the reasons for our complacency.
If
someone becomes aroused and inspired, give them good reasons to stop,
immediately, and be like we are, me and Richard. That is what a Baha'i
is.
The rest is just pilgrims' notes.
|
, Kent, the point of the Baha'i Faith is Wtted in the "Text and only the
Text".
Richard.
> |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Susan Maneck
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes vs Baha'i Writings |
|
|
| Quote: | In email conversations I have asserted that "Promulgation of Universal
Peace" and "Paris Talks" are not writings because they are transcribed
talks.
|
Kent,
In May when this discussion first began you were saying they were part
of the Writings.
But, authenticated, they become part and parcel to the body of works
| Quote: | collectively referred to as the Bahá'i Writings.
|
We don't know whether they will or not. The House didn't say that.
| Quote: |
"It is more accurate to call them 'mostly pilgrim's notes' than 'the
Writings.'"
|
<sigh>
Which was written in response to your calling them the Writings. And
at the time you were making no distinction between what was
authenticated or not.
| Quote: | Firstly, the House only refers to "many of His addresses" in the two book
s
as unauthenticated. That is not the same thing as "mostly".
|
Well, Kent you are perfectly welcome to go through the Persian
originals and count them to see whether 'most' of them are or not.
| Quote: | So the authenticated portions of those books are "Baha'i Writings", in m
y
opinion.
|
You, however, are not in the position to decide what is or is not part
of the Baha'i Writings.
Susan |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes vs Baha'i Writings |
|
|
Hi Susan.
"You, however, are not in the position to decide what is or is not part of
the Baha'i Writings."
If I can't, who can?
--Kent
[Mod: Obviously the Universal House of Justice has that authority. Tom]
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Jv-dnUxsSbY1_w_VnZ2dnUVZ_rzinZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | In email conversations I have asserted that "Promulgation of Universal
Peace" and "Paris Talks" are not writings because they are transcribed
talks.
|
Kent,
In May when this discussion first began you were saying they were part
of the Writings.
But, authenticated, they become part and parcel to the body of works
| Quote: | collectively referred to as the Bahá'i Writings.
|
We don't know whether they will or not. The House didn't say that.
| Quote: |
"It is more accurate to call them 'mostly pilgrim's notes' than 'the
Writings.'"
|
<sigh>
Which was written in response to your calling them the Writings. And
at the time you were making no distinction between what was
authenticated or not.
| Quote: | Firstly, the House only refers to "many of His addresses" in the two book
s
as unauthenticated. That is not the same thing as "mostly".
|
Well, Kent you are perfectly welcome to go through the Persian
originals and count them to see whether 'most' of them are or not.
| Quote: | So the authenticated portions of those books are "Baha'i Writings", in m
y
opinion.
|
You, however, are not in the position to decide what is or is not part
of the Baha'i Writings.
Susan |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Sen
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes vs Baha'i Writings |
|
|
The UHJ has already been asked about this, and wrote:
In response to your first question regarding the authenticity of the
words of 'Abdu'l-Bahá as recorded in collections such as "Paris
Talks", "Abdu'l-Bahá in London", and "The Promulgation of Universal
Peace", we enclose a memorandum from the Research Department at the
Bahá'í World Centre which specifically addresses this issue.
(The Universal House of Justice, 1996 Oct 22, Authentication and
Authority)
------++-----
.... From: Research Department
To: The Universal House of Justice
28 March 1996
Authenticity of "Bahá'í World Faith"and "Foundations of World Unity"
Mr. ... in an email message dated 19 February 1996, asks for
information about the authenticity of the words of 'Abdu'l-Bahá
published in the above-mentioned books. Specifically, he wants to know
about the section entitled "Knowledge and Deeds", found on pages
382-383 of "Bahá'í World Faith". He also asks about the status of the
talks found in "The Promulgation of Universal Peace", and in "Paris
Talks" and " 'Abdu'l-Bahá in London". We provide the following
response.
.... Regarding the status of 'Abdu'l-Bahá's talks published in "The
Promulgation of Universal Peace" and "Paris Talks", original Persian
transcripts of some, but not all, of the talks are available. We
provide the following extract from a letter written on behalf of the
Universal House of Justice which indicates that "in the future each
talk will have to be identified and those which are unauthenticated
will have to be clearly distinguished from those which form a part of
Bahá'í Scripture":
The original of "Some Answered Questions" in Persian is preserved in
the Holy Land; its text was read in full and corrected by 'Abdu'l-Bahá
Himself. Unfortunately, 'Abdu'l-Bahá did not read and authenticate all
transcripts of His other talks, some of which have been translated
into various languages and published. For many of His addresses
included in "The Promulgation of Universal Peace" and "Paris Talks",
for example, no original authenticated text has yet been found.
However, the Guardian allowed such compilations to continue to be used
by the friends. In the future each talk will have to be identified and
those which are unauthenticated will have to be clearly distinguished
from those which form a part of Bahá'í Scripture. This does not mean
that the unauthenticated talks will have to cease to be used -- merely
that the degree of authenticity of every document will have to be
known and understood.
(23 March 1987)
For "'Abdu'l-Bahá in London", no original transcripts exist, and the
following letter was written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi in this
regard:
Regarding "'Abdu'l-Bahá in London": Nothing can be considered
scripture for which we do not have an original text. A verbatim record
in Persian of His talks would of course be more reliable than one in
English, because He was not always accurately interpreted. However
such a book is of value, and certainly has its place in our
Literature.
(24 October 1947 to the National Spiritual Assembly of the British
Isles, published in "Unfolding Destiny: The Messages from the Guardian
of the Bahá'í Faith to the Bahá'í Community of the British
Isles" (London: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1981), p. 208.
The Research Department can not, at present, provide a detailed
listing of which extracts from "Foundations of World Unity" and
"Bahá'í World Faith" are authentic and which are not as, to date, such
a listing has not been compiled. Mr. ... can feel free to inquire
about the status of specific extracts in which he is interested. We
note that the majority of the passages in "Foundations of World Unity"
are extracted from talks of 'Abdu'l-Bahá published in "The
Promulgation of Universal Peace".
(The Universal House of Justice, 1996 Oct 22, Authentication and
Authority) |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes vs Baha'i Writings |
|
|
Hi Sen,
Thanks for writing, I had not seen the update from 1996, although I had seen
the letter from 1987 which was quoted in the update.
Unfortunately, the updated does not appear to have much new information,
only that "some but not all" of the talks are authenticated.
At least now that it is put that way, no one can claim that the entire books
hold the status of Pilgrims' Notes any more. Only that some but not all of
the talks are authenticated scripture, and those that are authenticated can
be included in everyone's definition of Baha'i Writings.
--Kent
"Sen" <sen.sonja@casema.nl> wrote in message
news:zuKdnR0SMKB_UjDVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com...
The UHJ has already been asked about this, and wrote:
In response to your first question regarding the authenticity of the
words of 'Abdu'l-Bahá as recorded in collections such as "Paris
Talks", "Abdu'l-Bahá in London", and "The Promulgation of Universal
Peace", we enclose a memorandum from the Research Department at the
Bahá'í World Centre which specifically addresses this issue.
(The Universal House of Justice, 1996 Oct 22, Authentication and
Authority)
------++-----
..... From: Research Department
To: The Universal House of Justice
28 March 1996
Authenticity of "Bahá'í World Faith"and "Foundations of World Unity"
Mr. ... in an email message dated 19 February 1996, asks for
information about the authenticity of the words of 'Abdu'l-Bahá
published in the above-mentioned books. Specifically, he wants to know
about the section entitled "Knowledge and Deeds", found on pages
382-383 of "Bahá'í World Faith". He also asks about the status of the
talks found in "The Promulgation of Universal Peace", and in "Paris
Talks" and " 'Abdu'l-Bahá in London". We provide the following
response.
..... Regarding the status of 'Abdu'l-Bahá's talks published in "The
Promulgation of Universal Peace" and "Paris Talks", original Persian
transcripts of some, but not all, of the talks are available. We
provide the following extract from a letter written on behalf of the
Universal House of Justice which indicates that "in the future each
talk will have to be identified and those which are unauthenticated
will have to be clearly distinguished from those which form a part of
Bahá'í Scripture":
The original of "Some Answered Questions" in Persian is preserved in
the Holy Land; its text was read in full and corrected by 'Abdu'l-Bahá
Himself. Unfortunately, 'Abdu'l-Bahá did not read and authenticate all
transcripts of His other talks, some of which have been translated
into various languages and published. For many of His addresses
included in "The Promulgation of Universal Peace" and "Paris Talks",
for example, no original authenticated text has yet been found.
However, the Guardian allowed such compilations to continue to be used
by the friends. In the future each talk will have to be identified and
those which are unauthenticated will have to be clearly distinguished
from those which form a part of Bahá'í Scripture. This does not mean
that the unauthenticated talks will have to cease to be used -- merely
that the degree of authenticity of every document will have to be
known and understood.
(23 March 1987)
For "'Abdu'l-Bahá in London", no original transcripts exist, and the
following letter was written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi in this
regard:
Regarding "'Abdu'l-Bahá in London": Nothing can be considered
scripture for which we do not have an original text. A verbatim record
in Persian of His talks would of course be more reliable than one in
English, because He was not always accurately interpreted. However
such a book is of value, and certainly has its place in our
Literature.
(24 October 1947 to the National Spiritual Assembly of the British
Isles, published in "Unfolding Destiny: The Messages from the Guardian
of the Bahá'í Faith to the Bahá'í Community of the British
Isles" (London: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1981), p. 208.
The Research Department can not, at present, provide a detailed
listing of which extracts from "Foundations of World Unity" and
"Bahá'í World Faith" are authentic and which are not as, to date, such
a listing has not been compiled. Mr. ... can feel free to inquire
about the status of specific extracts in which he is interested. We
note that the majority of the passages in "Foundations of World Unity"
are extracted from talks of 'Abdu'l-Bahá published in "The
Promulgation of Universal Peace".
(The Universal House of Justice, 1996 Oct 22, Authentication and
Authority) |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Sen
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes vs Baha'i Writings |
|
|
| Quote: | At least now that it is put that way, no one can claim that the entire books
hold the status of Pilgrims' Notes any more. Only that some but not all of
the talks are authenticated scripture, and those that are authenticated can
be included in everyone's definition of Baha'i Writings.
|
Sure, any talk for which there are Persian notes that the Master
checked and corrected is scripture. He made a regular practice of
checking all the notes made at the time, before allowing them to be
posted to the Persians in Palestine and Iran who were waiting for
news, but of course he would not have checked something like the later
memories or personal diaries (eg Mahmud's Diary) of the Iranians who
accompanied him. But he did check the material that was sent out with
the intention of circulating it (see for example the Persian sections
in Star of the West).
It is easy to find out if there are Persian notes that were published
at the time, since they have been collected in 3 volumes in Khetabat-e
Abdu'l-Baha, which is organised by date. So you can ask anyone who can
read even a little Persian, just enough to decipher the date and place
where the talk was held, to look for you.
But that doesn't help very much - you still want to know whether what
the Master approved, in the Persian notes, corresponds to what the
English text says.
What is needed is not to authenticate the existing English texts, but
rather to work the other way around: translate the Persian texts.
Sen |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
|
