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 Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 7:28 am Post subject: Response to Tomasz (chadly) |
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Matt Menge
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Response to Tomasz (chadly) |
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These passages may be explicit, but they are also unreliable Hadith.
Not to mention that, considering the political nature of Muhammad's
revelation and the fact that many people joined the religion because
they were seeking power, it would not be too unlikely for someone to
make up a Hadith to this effect.
Best Regards,
Matt
TomaszAntkowiak@lycos.com (Tomasz Antkowiak) wrote in message news:<GAydn
f9eIYv6T5CiXTWJgQ@giganews.com>...
| Quote: | Hello Suzanne,
"Suzanne Gerstner" <suzanne.gerstner@ntlworld.com> wrote in message new
s:
btOdnZa3I6WZ3JaiXTWJjA@giganews.com>...
Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah were Muslims. Both followed the teachin
gs
of
God and submitted their wills to the will of God to the supreme.
Perhaps Bahai believe this. However, believing in continuity of
prophets puts them outside the fold of Islam.
What will Jesus be doing then? Just standing on a cloud, keeping His
m
outh
shut? What happens if He opens it? He will be accused of being fals
e?
There are explicit statements of Muhammad (Saw) stating there will be
no prophet after him. There are also statements of him mentioning the
coming of the Mahdi and Isa, however they are only mentioned as rulers
and judges. Thus, there appearance will not be as prophets, but as
members of Muhammad(saw)'s community and as Muslims, so they shall not
utter a word in contradiction of Muhammad(saw)'s sayings or the
revelation he brought.
Do you realize that these are the exact same things which the Jews sa
id
about the Messiah, which is why they denied Christ? He was supposed
to
be a
Jew and not to change a word of their teachings and laws.
Go on soc.religion.christianity and look up my post titled, "Rejecting
Christ as Messiah," then read Dana Netherton's post.
Do you think this is a valid reason to ABANDON and IGNORE the
*explicit* statements of Muhammad(saw)? It's a weak reason to say the
least.
The Qur'an says that "Jesus will be the sign of the hour" of the day
of
Judgment -- the Day of Resurrection. (43:61) Could it be that this
me
ans
that whatever happened to Him will be repeated in this age?
How does 'sign of the hour' suddenly imply his life will be lived over
again? Can you quote any notable commentator that would agree with
you?
Take care,
Tomasz |
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Chadly
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 8:26 am Post subject: Re: "tombs"; "shrines", "mausoleums" in Islam |
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"Suzanne Gerstner" <suzanne.gerstner@ntlworld.com> wrote
| Quote: | It would seem that Muslims, like Baha'is, realize that the resting places
of
the Holy Ones of God, are not mere dirt housing dust of no signficance.
It
is reverencing the lives and reality of these Holy Ones who are not dead,
but who live eternally in Paradise, and who still exert their influence in
this world.
|
Yes , what you said is true , but there is one difference ,
and that is no Muslim when doing sajda is going to do
it facing the Tomb , I visited the Tomb of Ahmed Tijani
and I prayd 2 rak3at facing the Ka3ba ( God's house )
and that is what Muslims do .
there is no problem in giving respect to a holy tomb
but worship the tomb is a no no for us , Bahai may
do that , but the House of God is much more powerful
than any tomb on this earth. Why don't you search
the net for the first house built before Adam (3alayhe's'Salaam)
| Quote: | This is a great difference between the Baha'i Faith and other
Faiths. We
have a vast wealth of Writings from the Central Figures of our
Faith.
|
I dont find any wealth of Bahai Writings in the library next door to my
house !
Islam has a huge wealth of writings that explain everything
that is to know for spiritual seekers , more than Bahai can
imagine , for example El Futuhaat El Makkeyah of the
Grand Saint Iben Arabi , covers so much .
If the Bahai are allowed to read just the Muslim Shaykhs
or Awliya (saints) that are the inheritors of the Prophet
Muhammed (3alayhe Afdal As Salaam) , they would have find where Baha'u'lah
learned his writings from .
But Baha'u'lah made sure to not allow Bahai to believe
except in him and his only 2 successors
Therfore you don't know Iben Arabi ,Rabi'a
Al-Adawiya, Sayyida Nafisah, Imam Junayd al-Baghdadi, Imam Abu Hamid
Al-Ghazzali, Mawlana Jalal'ud-Din Rumi, Mulla Sadra, Khwaja
Mu'in'ud-Din Chisti, Shaykh Nizam'ud-Din Awliya, Shah Wali'ullah,
Shaykh Abu'l-Hasan Ash-Shadhili (my Family order), Shaykh Taj-ud-Din Ahmad
Ibn
Ata'illah, Abdel Qader Jilani , Shah Naqshband ( whom I belong to his order)
and many more who followed the Prophetic Model .
My Shaykh is Nazim Al Haqqani of the Naqshbandi order . |
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Matt Menge
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Testing |
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"Chadly" <khadooj@concentric.net> wrote in message news:<be949e$o6u$1@mur
doch.acc.Virginia.EDU>...
| Quote: | "john haukness" <haukness@academicplanet.com> wrote
The case in point here, if I pass wind during abolutions, I will redo
my
abulitions, I don't need rules to tell me that......<sniped the long
personal staff
Where in all your Holy books it said "I don't need rules to "
or you can do whatever makes you feel good .
the point is are all Bahai followers do like you , where is the evidenc
e
in the Book . What happen if a Bahai did not do like you and
prayed , is their prayer accepted or not ?
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Well, we know that God does not accept our prayers when we are dirty.
So you might extrapolate to say that passing gas while praying would
have the same effect. I think the principle is that we should not do
anything offensive or lewd while praying.
When I think of having a lot of rules, I think of children. Children
generally have to follow a lot of rules. Adults have less rules to
follow but much more responsibility.
Best Regards,
Matt |
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Matt Menge
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Testing |
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"Chadly" <khadooj@concentric.net> wrote in message news:<bduh98$gll$1@mur
doch.acc.Virginia.EDU>...
| Quote: | "Fred Capp" <frithrikr@earthlink.net> wrote
Excuse me, but in my experience the breaking of wind has rarely been
a voluntary act hence you cannot claim such to be controlled by the
ego. ........
That was very funny what came after the above ...
I agree with the above , but you have a choice to continue
in that state or to refresh your self , and that is when the ego
is challenged .
the 3 that I use is to say the 3ayn that looks like the 3
if it was writen backward
|
I think we would agree with this in principle, although there is no
hard and fast rule to this effect.
Rules are for children. Responsibility is for adults.
Best Regards,
Matt |
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Matt Menge
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 10:27 am Post subject: Re: Response to Tomasz |
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"Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@smart.net> wrote in message news:<knOdnZrcrI
oMiJOiRTvUpQ@giganews.com>...
| Quote: | On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Suzanne Gerstner wrote (excerpt for space):
So , is Baha'u'lah God in flesh
Dear Chadly,
We've had this discussion before. Of course Baha'u'llah is not. Tha
t
idea
is blasphemous. God, the unknowable Essence, can in no wise incarnat
e
Himself in a man. That would put limitations on Him. Baha'u'llah te
ac
hes
this.
I have a little trouble with this, to say that God "can in no
wise" do this or that. Certainly Christians will take issue over the
doctrine of the Incarnation. But just taking the Bah ' Faith in
itself, WHY should we say that God cannot do such and such. Assuming
that what we are saying is not in itself logically self-contradictory
(and I don't think that the Incarnation is), then who are we, Bah ' s
or anybody else, to set limits on what God can or cannot do. What he
does or does not choose to do is another matter. If I recall
correctly, it was `Abdu'l-Bah who says that God can in no wise
incarnate himself, and this is yet another matter I have had trouble
with in his writings (more so than in Bah 'u'll h's).
|
My impression is that it does not so much have to do with setting a
limitation upon God as it does this world. Simply put, the very
fabric of this universe cannot handle God.
It has been my distinct impression that the only reason the
Manifestations really mention God is out of humility. The
Manifestations are Omniscient, All-Powerful and knowable. Whereas God
is also Omniscient and All-Powerful, but unknowable. If God is
unknowable (to man) why mention Him. My answer is, out of humility.
The Manifestations are designed to be known, designed to be educators.
God is not. The Prophets only refer to God out of humility.
Best Regards,
Matt |
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Suzanne Gerstner
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Response to Tomasz |
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Paul said:
<<But just taking the Bahá'í Faith in
itself, WHY should we say that God cannot do such and such. Assuming
that what we are saying is not in itself logically self-contradictory
(and I don't think that the Incarnation is), then who are we, Bahá'ís
or anybody else, to set limits on what God can or cannot do.>>
Dear Paul,
Baha'u'llah says that taking human form would place limitations on God.
The
Unlimited cannot become limited like us. As it says in the Bible, "God i
s a
spirit". He can choose a Man from among all of humanity, and endow Him w
ith
all His attributes and can use Him as a channel of the Divine. But to be
restricted to the limitations of humanity is something far, far from what
God could or would do.
If Baha'u'llah is God's Mouthpiece on earth, then surely He has the right
to
say about God what He knows to be true. The question is not whether He ha
s
the right. The question is, do we believe that Baha'u'llah is who He say
s
He is?
"Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His
Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely
exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His
retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: "Verily, I am God; there
is
none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifes
ted
Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the sign
s
of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that
there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, t
he
All-Wise." He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never
be
known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce
no
greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Perso
n."
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 49)
God is known through His Manifestations like Christ, Moses, Muhammad and
Baha'u'llah. If you have known Them, you have known God. Not that they
are
God, but they manifest in their lives the signs and attributes of God, an
d
they speak of His glory:
See how this reconciles with what Christ said about HIs own self and God?
"He who has seen Me has seen the Father." (John 14:9)
"I am My FAther are one." (John 8:24)
"I am in the Father and the Father is in Me." (John 14:11)
"And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." (John 12:45)
On the other hand, Jesus says that He was not God. The two are separate:
"No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the
bosom of the FAther, He has declared Him." (John 1:18)
"I am going to the Father, for My Father is greater than I." (John 14:28
)
"I can of Mine own self do nothing...not My own will, but the will of the
Father which has sent Me." (John 5:30)
"I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things
..."
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, no
r
the Son, but the Father only." (Matt. 24:36) -- If Christ were God
incarnate, He would know what God knows.
"And when He had sent them away, He departed into a mountain to pray." (
Mk.
6:46) Does Jesus pray to Himself?
"My God, My God, why has Thou forsaken Me?" (Mk. 15:34)
Jesus was filled with the Spirit of God and He reflected all His signs an
d
attributes, but He was not God incarnate. We believe in the Father, the
Son
and the Holy Spirit. And we believe in whatever Christ said. We just do
n't
believe in all the dogmas and doctrines of the church; and since there ar
e
thousands of sects each believing slightly different things, there is
certainly no consensus in Christianity either that Christ was God
incarnate -- not that we believe that consensus is an accurate means of
getting at the truth! ;)
Kind regards,
Suzanne |
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Matt Menge
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Tomasz' Answer |
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TomaszAntkowiak@lycos.com (Tomasz Antkowiak) wrote in message news:<beagr
a$abu$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>...
| Quote: |
Sunnah elucidates the Qur'an. I am certain Muhammad (saw) regarded
himself as the last and final prophet and messenger. There is
consensus on this issue by the companions, early Muslim generations,
and Scholars.
|
Baha'i scholarship disagrees with you on this:
"There is much historical evidence that there was no general agreement
amongst the early Muslims that the phrase 'Seal of the Prophets' meant
that there would be no prophets after Muhammad. Certainly up to the
middle of the 3rd Islamic century there is a great deal of evidence
from literary and historical sources for this. It is thought that the
doctrine of Muhammad being the final prophet was adopted as official
Islamic doctrine in the early years of the 4th Islamic century (late
10th century AD), mainly as a counter to the numerous revolts that had
occurred and were still occurring against the Caliphate in the name of
various persons claiming to be prophets. By making the doctrine of
the finality of prophethood in Muhammad a central tenet in Islam, the
Muslim authorities were able to stem the tide of revolts so
successfully that in the centuries since that time there have only
been a handful of such claimants."
(Islam and the Baha'i Faith, Moojan Momen, pps. 44-45)
And of course it goes on, but that should be enough for the time
being.
Best Regards,
Matt |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Response to Tomasz |
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((Suzanne Gerstner reply about "God in the flesh" comment by another
poster...))
SNIP SNIP
On 10-Jul-2003, "Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@smart.net> wrote:
| Quote: | I have a little trouble with this, to say that God "can in no
wise" do this or that. Certainly Christians will take issue over the
doctrine of the Incarnation. But just taking the Bahá'í Faith in
itself, WHY should we say that God cannot do such and such. Assuming
that what we are saying is not in itself logically self-contradictory
(and I don't think that the Incarnation is), then who are we, Bahá'ís
or anybody else, to set limits on what God can or cannot do. What he
does or does not choose to do is another matter. If I recall
correctly, it was `Abdu'l-Bahá who says that God can in no wise
incarnate himself, and this is yet another matter I have had trouble
with in his writings (more so than in Bahá'u'lláh's).
************ ********** |
Mr. Bartlett, I am somewhat confused about your having a bit of trouble with
this.
When I first came across this concept it seemed fairly reasonable to me that
the Creator can not be contained, or constrained within any portion of His
creation.
It was far easier for me to consider the concept of the Manifestation
reflecting so perfectly the attributes of God and encouraging us humans to
strive to obtain the virtues, the attributes we can.
---Mac
----Mac
((Perturb not Dragons, for you are crunchy and tasty with a bit of ketchup
and thyme)) |
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Suzanne Gerstner
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: "tombs"; "shrines", "mausoleums" in Islam |
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| Quote: | I dont find any wealth of Bahai Writings in the library next door to my
house !
|
Which doesn't prove that we don't have them. It only shows that they don't.
Try this library to see what is available in English to Baha'is -- and
realize that this is only a fraction of the Writings which exist:
http://www.bahai-library.org/writings/
I feel like we've been going around in circles, covering the same ground
over and over and over again. I for one am getting tired of it. How about
moving on to other topics?
What do you see as the purpose of religion, Chadly? Why did God choose to
reveal Himself to us?
Kind regards,
Suzanne |
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Chadly
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Testing |
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"Matt Menge" <mspmenge@msn.com> wrote
Rules are for children. Responsibility is for adults.
Is this written some where , or Bahai Children learn
from the adult and the adult make up their own rules .
What to do before or after praying or what negate or
nullify ablution is clearer in Islam , there 16 thing that
nullify the ablution , I don't think you have this in
your holy book , that's why Bahai rules are non
existing , but covered by the sweet words of
Manifestations , New day , wine , beauty ....etc
when it comes to details of how this Bahai engine
works then suddenly Bahai raise themselves to the sky
saying rules are for children .....
Moderator's Note:
This response is forwarded but this thread is getting perilously
close to ad hominem rather than discussing real issues. |
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Tomasz Antkowiak
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Response to Tomasz (chadly) |
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Hello Matt,
mspmenge@msn.com (Matt Menge) wrote in message news:<3bednfZo0rl_x5OiRTvU
pQ@giganews.com>...
| Quote: | These passages may be explicit, but they are also unreliable Hadith.
|
I'm willing to judge the above statement as Matt's personal belief and
not general Bahai opinion, considering that I have seen Bahai quote
even *weak* hadith to support their given interpretations.
Since you have declared it "unreliable" in face of them being
rigorously authenticated by far more qualified figures than you or I
or any contemporary Muslim or Bahai for that matter, I will have to
demand evidence from you. There was a science developed for
determining which hadith are authentic, which might be fake. Are you
familiar with this science or do you reject simply because the hadith
goes against a belief you hold dearly?
"And when it is said unto him: Fear Allah, arrogance leads him to more
crime"
{2:206}
| Quote: | Not to mention that, considering the political nature of Muhammad's
revelation and the fact that many people joined the religion because
they were seeking power, it would not be too unlikely for someone to
make up a Hadith to this effect.
|
How many joined seeking power? Can you give me their names? The Imams
of Hadith investigated the lives of *every* individual who uttered a
word from the Prophet (Saw), infact, building biographies about
companions and other figures became a science within itself.
Secondly, the amount of munafiqun (hypocrites) isn't as large as you
presume, and they were well known *within* Muhammad(saw)'s time.
Take care,
Tomasz Antkowiak |
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Fred Capp
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: "tombs"; "shrines", "mausoleums" in Islam |
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| Quote: | This is a great difference between the Baha'i Faith and other
Faiths. We
have a vast wealth of Writings from the Central Figures of our
Faith.
I dont find any wealth of Bahai Writings in the library next door to my
house !
|
Want to visit mine?
| Quote: | Islam has a huge wealth of writings that explain everything
that is to know for spiritual seekers , more than Bahai can
imagine , for example El Futuhaat El Makkeyah of the
Grand Saint Iben Arabi , covers so much .
If the Bahai are allowed to read just the Muslim Shaykhs
or Awliya (saints) that are the inheritors of the Prophet
Muhammed (3alayhe Afdal As Salaam) , they would have find where Baha'u'lah
learned his writings from .
But Baha'u'lah made sure to not allow Bahai to believe
except in him and his only 2 successors
Therfore you don't know Iben Arabi ,Rabi'a
Al-Adawiya, Sayyida Nafisah, Imam Junayd al-Baghdadi, Imam Abu Hamid
Al-Ghazzali, Mawlana Jalal'ud-Din Rumi, Mulla Sadra, Khwaja
Mu'in'ud-Din Chisti, Shaykh Nizam'ud-Din Awliya, Shah Wali'ullah,
Shaykh Abu'l-Hasan Ash-Shadhili (my Family order), Shaykh Taj-ud-Din Ahmad
Ibn
Ata'illah, Abdel Qader Jilani , Shah Naqshband ( whom I belong to his order)
and many more who followed the Prophetic Model .
My Shaykh is Nazim Al Haqqani of the Naqshbandi order .
|
There is no rule binding upon Baha'is to limit our reading in anyway.
In fact we are encouraged to read widely on whatever topics may be of
interest to us.
I've read some of the writings by Ibn Arabi, Abu Hamid, Al-Ghazzali,
Rumi, & several others. Granted not everything, but I don't think
that it all exists in English. So please refrain from specious claims.
--
Fredrick B. Capp
************************************* |
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dmcadam
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: Testing |
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Reply to Matt Menge message 7/10/2003 11:41 PM
| Quote: | Well, we know that God does not accept our prayers when we are dirty.
|
Dear Matt-
I have never read this in the Writings. Do you have a reference
please?
What if we are in dire trouble, our car went off the road and we are
in a dirty ditch, our clothes and person are covered in mud etc.. It
does not make sense that God will not answer our prayers for help.
regards,
doug
Doug McAdam, Pres.
SSD, Inc.
705 W Foster St.
Kokomo, IN 46902
phone: 765-457-8628 <> email: dmcadam@iquest.net |
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Suzanne Gerstner
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2003 1:35 am Post subject: Re: Tomasz' Answer |
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| Quote: | Sunnah elucidates the Qur'an. I am certain Muhammad (saw) regarded
himself as the last and final prophet and messenger. There is
consensus on this issue by the companions, early Muslim generations,
and Scholars.
|
Dear Thomas,
Before you came to srb, we had been through this topic with Chadly for quite
a while, which is why, perhaps, not everyone is very enthusiastic about
repeating it. Baha'u'llah agrees that Muhammad is "the Seal of the
Prophets". He calls Him that on many occasions, and says that this title
shows the greatness of the Day we are now in. The Cycle of Prophecy has
ended. The Cycle of Fulfillment has begun.
This information is from a Baha'i/Muslim website:
The word "Seal" (kha'tam in Arabic), in the verse above, has been
interpreted to mean the: "Last", "Final", "Ornament" (something to adorn
with), "Ring", "Seal" (as in a stamp sealing closed a document), "Seal"
(as in seal of authority, officiating a document), and other meanings along
similar lines of interpretation. Baha'is believe that all such meanings are
valid and true.
Followers of all past religions have believed, based on certain verses in
their holy books, that their religion would not be followed by any other.
Verses such as this have prevented the Jews from accepting newer
revelations:
"Go thy way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of
the end." - Daniel 12:9
Another verse in the Old Testament says that the law of the Sabbath shall
not be broken.
* * * * *
For our Christian brothers and sisters, it was verses such as these below,
which lead them to believe that there would not be any revelation after that
of Christ :
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life; no man cometh
unto the Father, but by me." - John 14:6
"Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away." -
Luke 21:33
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times
and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,
whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
"- Hebrews 1:1
These and many other verses that talk about, how only through Jesus (PBUH)
we can know the Father, and how His words will never be replaced, were the
reason that Christians would not accept any Messenger after Christ.
Going back to the meaning of the "Seal of the Prophets", this verse, and
other verses about the completion of religion in Islam, have been
interpreted by the majority of Muslims as indication of the finality, not
only of Prophethood, but of all revelation. Other opinions and
interpretations, including some by Muslim scholars, have argued that since
there are many other verses in the Qur'an which explain the endless nature
of the Words of God, in addition to other verses and Hadiths (traditions and
sayings of the Prophet), which talk about the return of Jesus and the coming
of the Mahdi, these opinions, have argued that there may be other
interpretations for these verses.
Here's the link to this site in case you are interested:
http://bci.org/islam-bahai/
Kind regards,
Suzanne |
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