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Michael A.W.
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 Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: Return of Christ |
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I keep reading Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. How is this
substantiated by the faith and if Muhammad *(PBUH) was before
Baha'u'llah, wouldn't Muhammad *(PBUH) be the return of Christ
*(PBUH)due to order of appearance??
(*(PBUH) out of respect for our Islamic family.)
Michael A.W. |
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: Return of Christ |
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On 11/13/07, Michael A.W. <no@spam.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I keep reading Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. How is this
substantiated by the faith and if Muhammad *(PBUH) was before
Baha'u'llah, wouldn't Muhammad *(PBUH) be the return of Christ
*(PBUH)due to order of appearance??
|
Dear Michael,
Ultimately every Manifestation is the return of the previous ones. But
Muslims believe Christ will return along with the Mahdi at the end of
the age.
warmest, Susan |
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:01 am Post subject: Re: Return of Christ |
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On Nov 13, 2007, at 7:54 AM, Michael A.W. wrote:
| Quote: | I keep reading Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. How is this
substantiated by the faith and if Muhammad *(PBUH) was before
Baha'u'llah, wouldn't Muhammad *(PBUH) be the return of Christ
*(PBUH)due to order of appearance??
(*(PBUH) out of respect for our Islamic family.)
Michael A.W.
|
Hi Michael-
I have a difficult time with this concept too. We have analogies in
our Baha'i Writings acquainting the Manifestation as the spiritual sun
and like the solar sun it apears to us as days of the week, months,
years, season, cycles etc. There is One Sun, One Manifestation of God
that returns over and over and bringing us a new day, cycle etc. If
God is Perfect and He created Creation and our Writings tell us it is a
perfect creation because perfection cannot be created from an
imperfection then how could we imagine a time when there was no Christ,
no Moses, no Baha'u'llah etc.? These are titles that define the new
stage or level of development of mankind.
I was taught that there is only One Religion of God and it is revealed
to us in successive stages and each stage we call a religion. It is
sort of like grades of school in education where there is one education
but many grades of enlightenment all dependent on the former. We are
simply not used to seeing Oneness in all things.
regards,
doug
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Michael (Piedmont)
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Return of Christ |
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|
REPLY AT BOTTOM
"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:YuGdnZDtfvf-u6fanZ2dnUVZ_vqpnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
On Nov 13, 2007, at 7:54 AM, Michael A.W. wrote:
I keep reading Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. How is this
substantiated by the faith and if Muhammad *(PBUH) was before
Baha'u'llah, wouldn't Muhammad *(PBUH) be the return of Christ *(PBUH)due
to order of appearance??
(*(PBUH) out of respect for our Islamic family.)
Michael A.W.
Hi Michael-
I have a difficult time with this concept too. We have analogies in our
Baha'i Writings acquainting the Manifestation as the spiritual sun and
like the solar sun it apears to us as days of the week, months, years,
season, cycles etc. There is One Sun, One Manifestation of God that
returns over and over and bringing us a new day, cycle etc. If God is
Perfect and He created Creation and our Writings tell us it is a perfect
creation because perfection cannot be created from an imperfection then
how could we imagine a time when there was no Christ, no Moses, no
Baha'u'llah etc.? These are titles that define the new stage or level of
development of mankind.
I was taught that there is only One Religion of God and it is revealed to
us in successive stages and each stage we call a religion. It is sort of
like grades of school in education where there is one education but many
grades of enlightenment all dependent on the former. We are simply not
used to seeing Oneness in all things.
regards,
doug
|
Hi Doug,
It's not that I didn't understand and know about what you just described. I
was aware and in sync with what you said. That each Manifestation is a human
being who 'mirrors' the word of the one God, a gift given to them from God.
It's not that the Manifestation reappears, it's that God speaks again
through a new Manifestation.
I guess I'd heard others talk of it as if there was some other explanation.
The next time the subject comes up I will for sure ask them to clarify.
Is there a source that I could be referred to for teaching the faith
specifically to Christians which help them understand and cope with the new
teachings? How do you get them from Christ was not physically God on earth
in the flesh to Christ was a human being that was blessed by God with the
gift of God's word.
Michael A. W. |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Return of Christ |
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Hi Michael,
You: "Is there a source that I could be referred to for teaching the faith
specifically to Christians which help them understand and cope with the new
teachings?"
From my perspective, that is exactly what we are talking about in the "best
religion" thread. It seems to me, if Christians want to be taught they will
enroll in a course.
From a Baha'i standpoint, there is a different sort of "teaching" that some
Baha'is seem to think means should result in people enrolling in the Baha'i
Faith. And that is what I would like to talk about.
I don't think that sort of teaching is measured by who enrolls. And that
seems to be the implication of your use of the word. If you are asking
specifically about "teaching the faith specifically to Christians" I would
ask you back, why?
If your point is to allow them to understand our viewpoint, then you need to
find Christians who care about our viewpoint.
If you want to change their viewpoint, well then the source for teaching the
faith is in the Baha'i Writings:
"Whosoever and whatsoever meeting becometh a hindrance to the diffusion of
the Light of Faith, let the loved ones give them counsel and say: "Of all
the gifts of God the greatest is the gift of Teaching. It draweth unto us
the Grace of God and is our first obligation. Of such a gift how can we
deprive ourselves? Nay, our lives, our goods, our comforts, our rest, we
offer them all as a sacrifice for the Abha Beauty and teach the Cause of
God." Caution and prudence, however, must be observed even as recorded in
the Book. The veil must in no wise be suddenly rent asunder. The Glory of
Glories rest upon you. (Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 24)"
I think it is clear that the reason for teaching is not for the Christians,
but rather for each of us who wishes to teach. We are not trying to change
anyone's viewpoint, but rather to develop ourselves, to distinguish the
group of people on earth who call themselves Baha'is by personal endeavor,
independent investigation, elimination of prejudice, generosity, justice,
mercy, striving for perfection, knowledge and wisdom, I think you know the
drill.
From my perspective, demonstrating those qualities is teaching the Baha'i
Faith.
You: "How do you get them from Christ was not physically God on earth
in the flesh to Christ was a human being that was blessed by God with the
gift of God's word."
Not your responsibility. But from my perspective, it just seems silly to
believe in God physically on earth. So in personal conversations with good
friends, who may or may not happen to be Christians, have them discuss their
beliefs. Let them tell you how they believe God can be flesh. And if,
after they have finished, and you have obtained a hearing ear, tell them the
Baha'i belief.
In my experience it might take a day or a week or a month for it to sink in,
but such people eventually modify their beliefs after hearing a more logical
explanation than their own.
Thanks for reading, and more than that, thanks for asking. It allowed me an
opportunity to teach.
So if you would like to teach me back, please explain to me why you want to
teach Christians, and what you mean to do in "teaching Christians".
--Kent
| Quote: |
It's not that I didn't understand and know about what you just described.
I was aware and in sync with what you said. That each Manifestation is a
human being who 'mirrors' the word of the one God, a gift given to them
from God.
It's not that the Manifestation reappears, it's that God speaks again
through a new Manifestation.
I guess I'd heard others talk of it as if there was some other
explanation. The next time the subject comes up I will for sure ask them
to clarify.
Is there a source that I could be referred to for teaching the faith
specifically to Christians which help them understand and cope with the
new teachings? How do you get them from Christ was not physically God on
earth in the flesh to Christ was a human being that was blessed by God
with the gift of God's word.
Michael A. W. |
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Reed
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Return of Christ |
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Michael,
Certainly teaching for Baha'is should be almost a matter of life and
joy for them; but it need not come in any prescribed form. Abdu'l-Baha
would have us develop friendships and, should these naturally evolve
into a sharing of the important things in our lives... we are
teaching. Of course, teaching can take an infinite number of forms and
may be most effective when we don't know we are doing it.
But to your question: "How do you get them from Christ was not
physically God on earth in the flesh to Christ was a human being that
was blessed by God with the gift of God's word."
First, I think you need to separate Christ - the office of the
Anointed One (Manifestation) - from Jesus the man, the temporal
Manifestation of God for that age and place. The Christ mirrored God
("he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" John 14:9), that is, the
Attributes of God. Most Christians believe in the Trinity - Father,
Son, and Holy Spirit - and that Man was made in the image of God;
hence, some see this as Man is tripartite - Spirit, Soul, and Body.
Since the Christian Writings reveal that Man can go on after this life
without a material body, then the same might be extended to God - the
body of Jesus is not necessary to God. [Note: you might wish to
examine the instances of Jesus being seen after death - he was not
immediately recognized by anyone, either by voice or facial features.]
Hence Jesus was not God.
I guess you can take the logic from there. The Manifestation is
eternal, the corporal instance finite.
Many Christians are not aware of the extensive teaching in
Christianity of Progressive Revelation. I have done a study on it that
you are welcome to have.
Warmest Baha'i greetings,
Reed
| Quote: |
It's not that I didn't understand and know about what you just described. I
was aware and in sync with what you said. That each Manifestation is a human
being who 'mirrors' the word of the one God, a gift given to them from God.
It's not that the Manifestation reappears, it's that God speaks again
through a new Manifestation.
I guess I'd heard others talk of it as if there was some other explanation.
The next time the subject comes up I will for sure ask them to clarify.
Is there a source that I could be referred to for teaching the faith
specifically to Christians which help them understand and cope with the new
teachings? How do you get them from Christ was not physically God on earth
in the flesh to Christ was a human being that was blessed by God with the
gift of God's word.
Michael A. W. |
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| Back to top |
Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject: Re: Return of Christ |
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How do you get them from Christ was not physically God on earth
| Quote: | in the flesh to Christ was a human being that was blessed by God with the
gift of God's word.
|
Dear Michael,
But Christ, or any Manifestation for that matter, is much, much more
than simply a human being who receives a message from God. They are,
in themselves, the embodiments of the Word of God, of all of God's
names and attributes. Yes, we don't believe in a crude
incarnationalism, but how different from John's Prologue is to say
that the Manifestation is "He through whom the letters "B" and "E"
[literally Kaf and Nun] have been joined and knit together"?
warmest, Susan |
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Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: Return of Christ |
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Michael A.W. wrote:
How do you get them from Christ was not physically God on earth
| Quote: | in the flesh to Christ was a human being that was blessed by God with the
gift of God's word.
Michael, you might want to be careful about how you approach Christians with |
that intent. Consider the following
pax vobiscum
ricard.-
XXIV. Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make
any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to
discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their
Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of
them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that
the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay
whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the
future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and
Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their
persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed
disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His
Messengers.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 59) |
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Return of Christ |
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|
On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:32 AM, Reed wrote:
| Quote: | Many Christians are not aware of the extensive teaching in
Christianity of Progressive Revelation. I have done a study on it that
you are welcome to have.
|
Hi Reed-
Could I please have a copy.
Thanks so much,
doug |
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| Back to top |
Michael (Piedmont)
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:37 am Post subject: Re: Return of Christ |
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|
REPLY IS AT THE BOTTOM
"Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com> wrote in message
news:RbadndLOXrjWdqfanZ2dnUVZ_viunZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | Hi Michael,
You: "Is there a source that I could be referred to for teaching the faith
specifically to Christians which help them understand and cope with the
new
teachings?"
From my perspective, that is exactly what we are talking about in the
"best religion" thread. It seems to me, if Christians want to be taught
they will enroll in a course.
From a Baha'i standpoint, there is a different sort of "teaching" that
some Baha'is seem to think means should result in people enrolling in the
Baha'i Faith. And that is what I would like to talk about.
I don't think that sort of teaching is measured by who enrolls. And that
seems to be the implication of your use of the word. If you are asking
specifically about "teaching the faith specifically to Christians" I would
ask you back, why?
If your point is to allow them to understand our viewpoint, then you need
to find Christians who care about our viewpoint.
If you want to change their viewpoint, well then the source for teaching
the faith is in the Baha'i Writings:
"Whosoever and whatsoever meeting becometh a hindrance to the diffusion of
the Light of Faith, let the loved ones give them counsel and say: "Of all
the gifts of God the greatest is the gift of Teaching. It draweth unto us
the Grace of God and is our first obligation. Of such a gift how can we
deprive ourselves? Nay, our lives, our goods, our comforts, our rest, we
offer them all as a sacrifice for the Abha Beauty and teach the Cause of
God." Caution and prudence, however, must be observed even as recorded in
the Book. The veil must in no wise be suddenly rent asunder. The Glory of
Glories rest upon you. (Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 24)"
I think it is clear that the reason for teaching is not for the
Christians, but rather for each of us who wishes to teach. We are not
trying to change anyone's viewpoint, but rather to develop ourselves, to
distinguish the group of people on earth who call themselves Baha'is by
personal endeavor, independent investigation, elimination of prejudice,
generosity, justice, mercy, striving for perfection, knowledge and wisdom,
I think you know the drill.
From my perspective, demonstrating those qualities is teaching the Baha'i
Faith.
You: "How do you get them from Christ was not physically God on earth
in the flesh to Christ was a human being that was blessed by God with the
gift of God's word."
Not your responsibility. But from my perspective, it just seems silly to
believe in God physically on earth. So in personal conversations with
good friends, who may or may not happen to be Christians, have them
discuss their beliefs. Let them tell you how they believe God can be
flesh. And if, after they have finished, and you have obtained a hearing
ear, tell them the Baha'i belief.
In my experience it might take a day or a week or a month for it to sink
in, but such people eventually modify their beliefs after hearing a more
logical explanation than their own.
Thanks for reading, and more than that, thanks for asking. It allowed me
an opportunity to teach.
So if you would like to teach me back, please explain to me why you want
to teach Christians, and what you mean to do in "teaching Christians".
--Kent
|
Hello Kent,
In reflection, Perhaps the phrase 'teaching the faith' may actually be
something that is done, only after an individual asks to be taught the
faith. Until that point is reached it appears we wouldn't be teaching, we'd
be identifying ourselves as Baha'is and stating our beliefs if someone
should ask. I'd think that after someone asks to be taught, all we should do
is convey the Word as it is written. Either it sinks in or it doesn't. So I
can now see where my original statement of, how do you get them from......
is not really proper.
You,
| Quote: | "I think it is clear that the reason for teaching is not for the
Christians, but rather for each of us who wishes to teach. We are not
trying to change anyone's viewpoint, but rather to develop ourselves, to
distinguish the group of people on earth who call themselves Baha'is by
personal endeavor, independent investigation, elimination of prejudice,
generosity, justice, mercy, striving for perfection, knowledge and wisdom,
I think you know the drill.
|
I understood the readings to say by our good lives we will draw people
towards us who will then ask us why are we so different as in a nice way.
Then we our obliged to tell them about Baha'u'llah's conveying of God's
newest teachings. I think the writings make it clear we are obligated to
spread the new Word. The reason for teaching Christians or anyone else is
that we were asked by God to do so. In order to accelerate the process of
moving towards world peace and so that individuals will know the best way to
live their lives, become aware of their true nature as a soul, help prepare
them for physical death and then advancing ever closer towards God. We
aren't trying to change view points, we are trying to help those that
unaware of the new Word of God to find it.
You,
| Quote: | From my perspective, demonstrating those qualities is teaching the Baha'i
Faith."
|
Perhaps, but I have heard Christians say the exact same thing, and in some
regards we and they are both correct because as I feel, if everyone lived
their faith as God taught in each prior dispensation, we'd have the minor
peace all ready. The material laws would be mute if we all lived the
spiritual teachings that haven't changed through out all of the prior
dispensations.
Michael A.W. |
|
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| Back to top |
Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Return of Christ |
|
|
Hi Michael,
| Quote: | In reflection, Perhaps the phrase 'teaching the faith' may actually be
something that is done, only after an individual asks to be taught the
faith.
|
" Teach them, by Thy Name, the All-Knowing, the wonders of Thy wisdom, that
they may cleave steadfastly to Thy Faith and walk in the ways of Thy
pleasure. (Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 119)"
I believe the Writings are clear that Baha'is are responsible to teach the
Faith of God, by whatever name people wish to call it. It is not up to us
to enroll Baha'is, but it is up to us to show with our lives that we
understand God's Cause for humanity (which others may or may not associate
with any religion). We should do this as an aid to ourselves.
People recognize God's work, and the people who do God's work. They may not
recognize the name of God, but people who do God's work, whether Muslim or
Jew or Christian or secular, are universally admired for their actions.
People who take one of God's names for themselves, to elevate themselves
besmirch that Name. I am sure you are aware of people who do not do God's
work but call themselves Christians or Muslims. It cheapens those faiths to
be associated with such people.
I am stressing this point so the we all understand that such a thing happens
to the Baha'i Faith as well.
If we become associated with hypocrites or psychos or just plain mean and
argumentative people that is what is associated with God's name for this
day. If we are all scholars who are never wrong (at least in our own minds)
that becomes the Baha'i Faith as well.
As Baha'is we need to teach God's Faith (which everyone knows) in
Baha'u'llah's name, God's name for this day. We all know God's work, and
have seen someone do such work and admired that person. We need to associate
such work with the Baha'i Faith. The teachings are great, sure, but if no
one follows the teachings and does God's work those teachings are pointless.
So I think you might better say that teaching the Faith of God should be
done without mentioning the Baha'i Faith. But if someone wants you to
impart to them the teachings of the Baha'i Faith, well, that is not really
teaching unless it is done using those principles of fellowship and
generosity and love that come in those teachings.
A lecture is how we have come to see teaching, but people do not learn the
Faith of God from a lecture or a book. Though it is possible to learn
Christianity or the Baha'i Faith from a book that is not the Faith of God.
At least that is not how such faiths are practiced in my area.
| Quote: | Until that point is reached it appears we wouldn't be teaching, we'd be
identifying ourselves as Baha'is and stating our beliefs if someone should
ask.
|
Unless someone wants to know what inspires us to do God's Work, to
demonstrate our Faith by doing His good deeds for Him, then there is no
sense in telling them.
| Quote: | I'd think that after someone asks to be taught, all we should do is convey
the Word as it is written.
|
We should continue to provide fellowship and love and generosity of spirit.
I remember the old joke, if you want to get Baha'is to leave you alone, join
them. But it is our Faith, the Baha'i Faith, that each of us is responsible
to investigate the Truth of God for ourselves. That does not mean we should
not offer our opinions, but rather that our Faith says we cannot adopt
another person's. It becomes our opinion, and our responsibility.
| Quote: | I think the writings make it clear we are obligated to spread the new
Word.
|
I would be interested in seeing such a quote. I think the Writings more
often say to spread the Cause of God, to impart the Faith of God and such.
Spreading His Word? Well, I would like to see that in context. Maybe in
the context of His commands or His law?
| Quote: | become aware of their true nature as a soul,
|
You mean as a spiritual being? As in the essence of humanity, its soul, is
spiritual? That is a topic for a different thread, and a good one, I think.
You quoting me:
| Quote: | You,
"From my perspective, demonstrating those qualities is teaching the Baha'i
Faith."
|
Maybe it is clearer if I say demonstrating those qualities is teaching
(demonstrating) the Faith of God (faith in God). Teaching the Faith of God
is the same thing as demonstrating faith in God.
Hopefully the Baha'i Faith will one day be generally associated with such
faith but as it stands today, I think some words are just over-used and have
become devoid of meaning. Manifestation of God. God's Cause, the Faith of
God... We should separate those words from the Writings of the Baha'i Faith
and look at them dispassionately. Independently investigate the meaning of
these words.
But again, we go beyond the scope of this thread.
| Quote: | We aren't trying to change view points, we are trying to help those that
unaware of the new Word of God to find it.
|
We shouldn't care at all about viewpoints. Any viewpoint that inspires or
otherwise causes people to do God's Work on earth is a viewpoint provided by
God, regardless the name of that viewpoint.
| Quote: | if everyone lived their faith as God taught in each prior dispensation,
we'd have the minor peace all ready. The material laws would be mute if we
all lived the spiritual teachings that haven't changed through out all of
the prior dispensations.
|
I think God taught to be good to each other in every dispensation. If just
that were done by everyone in my town alone we would be heralded around the
world.
--Kent.
"Michael (Piedmont)" <No@Spam.com> wrote in message
news:l5OdnQ9cv88YVqHanZ2dnUVZ_sOrnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | REPLY IS AT THE BOTTOM
Hello Kent,
In reflection, Perhaps the phrase 'teaching the faith' may actually be
something that is done, only after an individual asks to be taught the
faith. Until that point is reached it appears we wouldn't be teaching,
we'd be identifying ourselves as Baha'is and stating our beliefs if
someone should ask. I'd think that after someone asks to be taught, all we
should do is convey the Word as it is written. Either it sinks in or it
doesn't. So I can now see where my original statement of, how do you get
them from...... is not really proper.
You,
"I think it is clear that the reason for teaching is not for the
Christians, but rather for each of us who wishes to teach. We are not
trying to change anyone's viewpoint, but rather to develop ourselves, to
distinguish the group of people on earth who call themselves Baha'is by
personal endeavor, independent investigation, elimination of prejudice,
generosity, justice, mercy, striving for perfection, knowledge and
wisdom, I think you know the drill.
I understood the readings to say by our good lives we will draw people
towards us who will then ask us why are we so different as in a nice way.
Then we our obliged to tell them about Baha'u'llah's conveying of God's
newest teachings. I think the writings make it clear we are obligated to
spread the new Word. The reason for teaching Christians or anyone else is
that we were asked by God to do so. In order to accelerate the process of
moving towards world peace and so that individuals will know the best way
to live their lives, become aware of their true nature as a soul, help
prepare them for physical death and then advancing ever closer towards
God. We aren't trying to change view points, we are trying to help those
that unaware of the new Word of God to find it.
You,
From my perspective, demonstrating those qualities is teaching the Baha'i
Faith."
Perhaps, but I have heard Christians say the exact same thing, and in some
regards we and they are both correct because as I feel, if everyone lived
their faith as God taught in each prior dispensation, we'd have the minor
peace all ready. The material laws would be mute if we all lived the
spiritual teachings that haven't changed through out all of the prior
dispensations.
Michael A.W. |
|
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| |
|
| Back to top |
Carl Brehmer
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Return of Christ |
|
|
| Quote: | I keep reading Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. How is this
substantiated by the faith and if Muhammad *(PBUH) was before
Baha'u'llah, wouldn't Muhammad *(PBUH) be the return of Christ
*(PBUH)due to order of appearance??
|
How can Tuesday's sun be the return of Sunday's sun if Monday came
before Tuesday? Wouldn't Monday's sun be the return of Sunday's sun
and Tuesday's sun be the return of Monday's sun?
Yes! Exactly.
Carl |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Susan Maneck
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:11 am Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
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On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Bob <boab@iinet.net.au> wrote:
| Quote: | I am still having ongoing email discussions with Lauren, a very
committed Christian.
Can anyone help me to put together a Baha'i response to this?
I feel like saying that Baha'is would not read these quotations in the
Bible literally and just leave it that
cheers
Bob Abrahams
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Normally I would emphasize that this was what the Jews believed about
the coming of the Messiah the first time, but it looks like she has
already anticipated that argument. |
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
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Hi Susan-
Wouldn't David Young's Course be a good thing for this seeker of truth
to peruse?
regards,
doug
On Jul 15, 2008, at 10:11 PM, Susan Maneck wrote:
| Quote: | On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Bob <boab@iinet.net.au> wrote:
I am still having ongoing email discussions with Lauren, a very
committed Christian.
Can anyone help me to put together a Baha'i response to this?
I feel like saying that Baha'is would not read these quotations in the
Bible literally and just leave it that
cheers
Bob Abrahams
Normally I would emphasize that this was what the Jews believed about
the coming of the Messiah the first time, but it looks like she has
already anticipated that argument.
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Bill Hyman
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:03 am Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
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I'm pretty much on the same boat. Prophecy proofs can become contentious.
There are the people who say they were fulfilled and accept a new
Manifestation and there are the people who say that they are not fulfilled
and do not accept a new Manifestation. Many of the biblical prophecies were
sealed until the time of the end so the Christians who interpret them shoul
d
realize that this is the time of the end, 7th Day Adventists and Jehovah
Winesses are examples, but what is their authority to interpret? If the Ba
b
and Baha'u'llah were the fulfillment of the prophecies, they, and their
designees, had the authority to interpret. Abdu'l-Baha, in "Some Answered
Questions" confirms that William Miller's interpretation of the Daniel 2300
days prophecy, to which Jesus referred in the New Testament, was essentiall
y
correct, with the advent of the Bab in 1844. Adventists even today call it
the "Year of the Great Disappointment" because they were ready and Jesus di
d
not come as they expected Him to come. Now they keep the 1844 date of
fulfillment but have changed what happened and say that is when Jesus
entered the inner sanctuary of the temple in Heaven.
It is interesting to note that the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel refers to th
e
first coming of Christ, but Jesus Himself did not use it as proof of His ow
n
fulfillment. Maybe that prophecy was sealed also until the Baha'i Era.
I no longer use prophecy in teaching except to let my contacts know that th
e
Baha'i writings explain their fulfillment to my satisfaction.
Bill
On 7/16/08 9:03 AM, "Poststructuralist"
<drfosternotfromgloucester@nospamgmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Bob wrote:
I am still having ongoing email discussions with Lauren, a very
committed Christian. Can anyone help me to put together a Baha'i
response to this? I feel like saying that Baha'is would not read
these quotations in the Bible literally and just leave it that
Premillennial dispensationalism is, almost by definition, a
prophetically oriented eschatology (theology of end times). For what
it's worth, I have never found it terribly useful to go point by point
through prophecies with most people (as in "Thief in the Night"). IMO, a
more beneficial approach is simply to provide a link to the Kitab-i-Iqan
and to then encourage the person to read it.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." ‹ Peter L. Berger, sociologist
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