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Bob
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 Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:33 am Post subject: RETURN OF CHRIST |
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I am still having ongoing email discussions with Lauren, a very
committed Christian.
Can anyone help me to put together a Baha'i response to this?
I feel like saying that Baha'is would not read these quotations in the
Bible literally and just leave it that
cheers
Bob Abrahams
Hi Bob,
The reason we can be very sure that Jesus hasn’t come yet is that
biblical prophecies are unfolding before our eyes. The things that
Jesus predicted would happen are happening now, but there are still
more things to come. So Jesus couldn’t be here yet, according to the
bible. Plus it says when He comes every eye will see Him returning to
the Earth the way He left it.
"After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a
cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the
sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood
beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here
looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you
into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into
heaven."" (Acts 1:9-11, NIV)
"On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of
Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to
west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north
and half moving south. " ( Zechariah 14:4, NIV)
Rev 1:7 "Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see
him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will
mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen." NIV
Matt 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the
sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the
Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great
glory." NIV
While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on
them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not
escape. - 1 Thessalonians 5:3
I know as a Bahaii you will probably say that it's symbolic, not
literal and Jesus will different to what we expect... like He was the
first time. But, take the time to watch this video on end times
prophecies coming to pass now. It's long, it's over an hour (5 small
videos all together) but it's the most fascinating thing I've ever
watched. You won't be bored watching it, and it may help you see why
I believe Jesus is still coming.
Talk to you soon,
Lauren.
--- On Tue, 7/15/08, Bob Abrahams <boab@iinet.net.au> wrote:
From: Bob Abrahams <boab@iinet.net.au>
Subject: RE: PROGRESSIVE REVELATION
To: lauren.perkins97@yahoo.com
Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 2:42 PM
Baha’is see human progress as an ongoing process of “crisis and
victory” eventually leading to Unity and Peace
True peace won't happen for us until Jesus returns and establishes it
after the tribulation.
What if Jesus has already returned as foretold in the bible and we
missed him. He Himself was not initially accepted and went through
many tribulations before establishing His Station
How would Christians and Muslims (who also believe that he will
return) recognize Christ? Christ returns for everyone. God is too
big or any one religion or religious sect
Cheers
Bob
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2008 8:40 PM
To: Bob Abrahams
Subject: RE: PROGRESSIVE REVELATION
Oh good, I'm glad you didn't think I was getting too pushy with my
questions! I think the difference is that Christians see the new
world order as a bad thing, not a good thing. True peace won't happen
for us until Jesus returns and establishes it after the tribulation.
I'll have a scout around for some prophetic verses on the new world
order prophecies tommorow.
Lauren. |
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|
 Back to top |
Rod Missaghian
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
|
|
| Quote: | If we, as Baha'is, are better Christians than those who call themselves
Christians, then the Christians should join us. If the Christians |
are
better at being Baha'is than those who call ourselves Baha'is then we
should
join them<<
Kent, your comments here make me think of all the passages in the
Bible that talk about the bearing of fruit.
Luke 6:43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear
good fruit".
Matthew 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down
and thrown into the fire".
John 15:4 " Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear
fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear
fruit unless you remain in me"
and the list goes on...the point being that Bob, you should ask your
friend if she truly believes that Christianity in its current guise is
capable of bringing the people of the world together (i.e. bearing
good fruit)
Ask her to examine the writings of Baha'u'llah and to ask herself an
important question: "Have these writings and the followers of these
writings yielded good fruit". Is Baha'u'llahs vision for humanity
something worth examining? |
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| Back to top |
Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
|
|
Hi Bob and Lauren,
I think the clouds we are talking about are anything that take us away from
devoting our lives to developing the virtues Christ asked us to develop,
that Christ Himself developed. I think as Baha's we should ask ourselves:
"What would Jesus do?"
If the point of Jesus' message was not to devote ourselves to answering His
prayer to make "earth as it is in heaven" then what is Christianity?
If we, as Baha'is, are better Christians than those who call themselves
Christians, then the Christians should join us. If the Christians are
better at being Baha'is than those who call ourselves Baha'is then we should
join them.
The point of both religions is not to figure out what the "clouds" are, but
rather to dispel those clouds and to find the Point, and bring it to the
forefront of our lives. Any other point is not the Point Lauren, you, and
me are looking for, if we only knew it.
Biblical prophecies have unfolded for all eternity, before, during and after
every Revelation from God. What are we waiting for?
"Vain imaginings have withheld them from Him Who is the Self-Subsisting.
They speak as prompted by their own caprices, and understand not. Among them
are those who have said: 'Have the verses been sent down?' Say: 'Yea, by Him
Who is the Lord of the heavens!' 'Hath the Hour come?' 'Nay, more; it hath
passed, by Him Who is the Revealer of clear tokens! Verily, the Inevitable
is come, and He, the True One, hath appeared with proof and testimony. The
Plain is disclosed, and mankind is sore vexed and fearful. Earthquakes have
broken loose, and the tribes have lamented, for fear of God, the Lord of
Strength, the All-Compelling.' Say: 'The stunning trumpet blast hath been
loudly raised, and the Day is God's, the One, the Unconstrained.' 'Hath the
Catastrophe come to pass?' Say: 'Yea, by the Lord of Lords!' 'Is the
Resurrection come?' 'Nay, more; He Who is the Self-Subsisting hath appeared
with the Kingdom of His signs.' 'Seest thou men laid low?' 'Yea, by my Lord,
the Exalted, the Most High!' 'Have the tree-stumps been uprooted?' 'Yea,
more; the mountains have been scattered in dust; by Him the Lord of
attributes!' They say: 'Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?' Say: 'The one
is reunion with Me; the other thine own self, O thou who dost associate a
partner with God and doubtest.' They say: 'We see not the Balance.' Say:
'Surely, by my Lord, the God of Mercy! None can see it except such as are
endued with insight.' " (Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p.
131)
Acts 1:9-11? Jesus returned several times that way in the same book of
Acts. How long are you going to wait for that prophecy that was fulfilled
before the Pentecost?
Zechariah? You really want to talk Old Testament Prophecy? Let me put on
my Jewish hat first and you can start by convincing me that Jesus was
Messiah. Obviously you know that we do not think Jesus was Messiah. He was
not descended from David, for one thing. Who was Jesus' father and
grandfather in the patrilineal line?
The point of the Baha'i Faith is that we don't wait, we act. We are done
with waiting, with prophecy. Today is the day and now is the time, and we
have been called by God to fulfill Christ's prayer. We pray that you join
us for your own sake.
--Kent
"Bob" <boab@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:EbudnRkNG6XVSeDVnZ2dnUVZ_q7inZ2d@giganews.com...
I am still having ongoing email discussions with Lauren, a very
committed Christian.
Can anyone help me to put together a Baha'i response to this?
I feel like saying that Baha'is would not read these quotations in the
Bible literally and just leave it that
cheers
Bob Abrahams
Hi Bob,
The reason we can be very sure that Jesus hasn’t come yet is that
biblical prophecies are unfolding before our eyes. The things that
Jesus predicted would happen are happening now, but there are still
more things to come. So Jesus couldn’t be here yet, according to the
bible. Plus it says when He comes every eye will see Him returning to
the Earth the way He left it.
"After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a
cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the
sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood
beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here
looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you
into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into
heaven."" (Acts 1:9-11, NIV)
"On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of
Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to
west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north
and half moving south. " ( Zechariah 14:4, NIV)
Rev 1:7 "Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see
him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will
mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen." NIV
Matt 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the
sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the
Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great
glory." NIV
While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on
them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not
escape. - 1 Thessalonians 5:3
I know as a Bahaii you will probably say that it's symbolic, not
literal and Jesus will different to what we expect... like He was the
first time. But, take the time to watch this video on end times
prophecies coming to pass now. It's long, it's over an hour (5 small
videos all together) but it's the most fascinating thing I've ever
watched. You won't be bored watching it, and it may help you see why
I believe Jesus is still coming.
Talk to you soon,
Lauren.
--- On Tue, 7/15/08, Bob Abrahams <boab@iinet.net.au> wrote:
From: Bob Abrahams <boab@iinet.net.au>
Subject: RE: PROGRESSIVE REVELATION
To: lauren.perkins97@yahoo.com
Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 2:42 PM
Baha’is see human progress as an ongoing process of “crisis and
victory” eventually leading to Unity and Peace
True peace won't happen for us until Jesus returns and establishes it
after the tribulation.
What if Jesus has already returned as foretold in the bible and we
missed him. He Himself was not initially accepted and went through
many tribulations before establishing His Station
How would Christians and Muslims (who also believe that he will
return) recognize Christ? Christ returns for everyone. God is too
big or any one religion or religious sect
Cheers
Bob
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2008 8:40 PM
To: Bob Abrahams
Subject: RE: PROGRESSIVE REVELATION
Oh good, I'm glad you didn't think I was getting too pushy with my
questions! I think the difference is that Christians see the new
world order as a bad thing, not a good thing. True peace won't happen
for us until Jesus returns and establishes it after the tribulation.
I'll have a scout around for some prophetic verses on the new world
order prophecies tommorow.
Lauren. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
|
|
Hi Bob and Lauren,
I think the clouds we are talking about are anything that take us away from
devoting our lives to developing the virtues Christ asked us to develop,
that Christ Himself developed. I think as Baha's we should ask ourselves:
"What would Jesus do?"
If the point of Jesus' message was not to devote ourselves to answering His
prayer to make "earth as it is in heaven" then what is Christianity?
If we, as Baha'is, are better Christians than those who call themselves
Christians, then the Christians should join us. If the Christians are
better at being Baha'is than those who call ourselves Baha'is then we should
join them.
The point of both religions is not to figure out what the "clouds" are, but
rather to dispel those clouds and to find the Point, and bring it to the
forefront of our lives. Any other point is not the Point Lauren, you, and
me are looking for, if we only knew it.
Biblical prophecies have unfolded for all eternity, before, during and after
every Revelation from God. What are we waiting for?
"Vain imaginings have withheld them from Him Who is the Self-Subsisting.
They speak as prompted by their own caprices, and understand not. Among them
are those who have said: 'Have the verses been sent down?' Say: 'Yea, by Him
Who is the Lord of the heavens!' 'Hath the Hour come?' 'Nay, more; it hath
passed, by Him Who is the Revealer of clear tokens! Verily, the Inevitable
is come, and He, the True One, hath appeared with proof and testimony. The
Plain is disclosed, and mankind is sore vexed and fearful. Earthquakes have
broken loose, and the tribes have lamented, for fear of God, the Lord of
Strength, the All-Compelling.' Say: 'The stunning trumpet blast hath been
loudly raised, and the Day is God's, the One, the Unconstrained.' 'Hath the
Catastrophe come to pass?' Say: 'Yea, by the Lord of Lords!' 'Is the
Resurrection come?' 'Nay, more; He Who is the Self-Subsisting hath appeared
with the Kingdom of His signs.' 'Seest thou men laid low?' 'Yea, by my Lord,
the Exalted, the Most High!' 'Have the tree-stumps been uprooted?' 'Yea,
more; the mountains have been scattered in dust; by Him the Lord of
attributes!' They say: 'Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?' Say: 'The one
is reunion with Me; the other thine own self, O thou who dost associate a
partner with God and doubtest.' They say: 'We see not the Balance.' Say:
'Surely, by my Lord, the God of Mercy! None can see it except such as are
endued with insight.' " (Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p.
131)
Acts 1:9-11? Jesus returned several times that way in the same book of
Acts. How long are you going to wait for that prophecy that was fulfilled
before the Pentecost?
Zechariah? You really want to talk Old Testament Prophecy? Let me put on
my Jewish hat first and you can start by convincing me that Jesus was
Messiah. Obviously you know that we do not think Jesus was Messiah. He was
not descended from David, for one thing. Who was Jesus' father and
grandfather in the patrilineal line?
The point of the Baha'i Faith is that we don't wait, we act. We are done
with waiting, with prophecy. Today is the day and now is the time, and we
have been called by God to fulfill Christ's prayer. We pray that you join
us for your own sake.
--Kent
"Bob" <boab@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:EbudnRkNG6XVSeDVnZ2dnUVZ_q7inZ2d@giganews.com...
I am still having ongoing email discussions with Lauren, a very
committed Christian.
Can anyone help me to put together a Baha'i response to this?
I feel like saying that Baha'is would not read these quotations in the
Bible literally and just leave it that
cheers
Bob Abrahams
Hi Bob,
The reason we can be very sure that Jesus hasn’t come yet is that
biblical prophecies are unfolding before our eyes. The things that
Jesus predicted would happen are happening now, but there are still
more things to come. So Jesus couldn’t be here yet, according to the
bible. Plus it says when He comes every eye will see Him returning to
the Earth the way He left it.
"After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a
cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the
sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood
beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here
looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you
into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into
heaven."" (Acts 1:9-11, NIV)
"On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of
Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to
west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north
and half moving south. " ( Zechariah 14:4, NIV)
Rev 1:7 "Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see
him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will
mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen." NIV
Matt 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the
sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the
Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great
glory." NIV
While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on
them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not
escape. - 1 Thessalonians 5:3
I know as a Bahaii you will probably say that it's symbolic, not
literal and Jesus will different to what we expect... like He was the
first time. But, take the time to watch this video on end times
prophecies coming to pass now. It's long, it's over an hour (5 small
videos all together) but it's the most fascinating thing I've ever
watched. You won't be bored watching it, and it may help you see why
I believe Jesus is still coming.
Talk to you soon,
Lauren.
--- On Tue, 7/15/08, Bob Abrahams <boab@iinet.net.au> wrote:
From: Bob Abrahams <boab@iinet.net.au>
Subject: RE: PROGRESSIVE REVELATION
To: lauren.perkins97@yahoo.com
Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 2:42 PM
Baha’is see human progress as an ongoing process of “crisis and
victory” eventually leading to Unity and Peace
True peace won't happen for us until Jesus returns and establishes it
after the tribulation.
What if Jesus has already returned as foretold in the bible and we
missed him. He Himself was not initially accepted and went through
many tribulations before establishing His Station
How would Christians and Muslims (who also believe that he will
return) recognize Christ? Christ returns for everyone. God is too
big or any one religion or religious sect
Cheers
Bob
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2008 8:40 PM
To: Bob Abrahams
Subject: RE: PROGRESSIVE REVELATION
Oh good, I'm glad you didn't think I was getting too pushy with my
questions! I think the difference is that Christians see the new
world order as a bad thing, not a good thing. True peace won't happen
for us until Jesus returns and establishes it after the tribulation.
I'll have a scout around for some prophetic verses on the new world
order prophecies tommorow.
Lauren. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Poststructuralist
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:03 am Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
|
|
Bob wrote:
| Quote: | I am still having ongoing email discussions with Lauren, a very
committed Christian. Can anyone help me to put together a Baha'i
response to this? I feel like saying that Baha'is would not read
these quotations in the Bible literally and just leave it that
|
Premillennial dispensationalism is, almost by definition, a
prophetically oriented eschatology (theology of end times). For what
it's worth, I have never found it terribly useful to go point by point
through prophecies with most people (as in "Thief in the Night"). IMO, a
more beneficial approach is simply to provide a link to the Kitab-i-Iqan
and to then encourage the person to read it.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
|
| |
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| Back to top |
Susan Maneck
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
|
|
| Quote: | I think the clouds we are talking about are anything that take us away fr
om
devoting our lives to developing the virtues Christ asked us to develop,
that Christ Himself developed.
|
Dear Kent,
That's not how Baha'u'llah described these 'clouds.'
By the term "clouds" is meant those things that are contrary to the
ways and desires of men. Even as He hath revealed in the verse already
quoted: "As oft as an Apostle cometh unto you with that which your
souls desire not, ye swell with pride, accusing some of being
impostors and slaying others."[1] These "clouds" signify, in one
sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations,
the repeal of rituals and customs current amongst men, the exalting of
the illiterate faithful above the learned opposers of the Faith. In
another sense, they mean the appearance of that immortal Beauty in the
image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and
drinking, poverty and riches, glory and abasement, sleeping and
waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and
cause them to turn away. All such veils are symbolically referred to
as "clouds."
[1 Qur'án 2:87.]
These are the "clouds" that cause the heavens of the knowledge and
understanding of all that dwell on earth to be cloven asunder. Even as
He hath revealed: "On that day shall the heaven be cloven by the
clouds."[1] Even as the clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding
the sun, so do these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing
the light of the divine Luminary.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 71)
warmest, Susan |
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| Back to top |
Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:14 am Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
|
|
Hi Susan,
What is the big difference between: "...such other things as cast doubt in
the minds of men, and cause them to turn away" and "anything that take us
away from devoting our lives to developing the virtues" God wants us to
develop?
Perhaps you are saying that devoting our lives to developing virtues is
quite a different thing from turning away from God.
I think the two things are identical. Would you like some sources?
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4-adnV3Pd7ouEOLVnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | I think the clouds we are talking about are anything that take us away fr
om
devoting our lives to developing the virtues Christ asked us to develop,
that Christ Himself developed.
|
Dear Kent,
That's not how Baha'u'llah described these 'clouds.'
By the term "clouds" is meant those things that are contrary to the
ways and desires of men. Even as He hath revealed in the verse already
quoted: "As oft as an Apostle cometh unto you with that which your
souls desire not, ye swell with pride, accusing some of being
impostors and slaying others."[1] These "clouds" signify, in one
sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations,
the repeal of rituals and customs current amongst men, the exalting of
the illiterate faithful above the learned opposers of the Faith. In
another sense, they mean the appearance of that immortal Beauty in the
image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and
drinking, poverty and riches, glory and abasement, sleeping and
waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and
cause them to turn away. All such veils are symbolically referred to
as "clouds."
[1 Qur'án 2:87.]
These are the "clouds" that cause the heavens of the knowledge and
understanding of all that dwell on earth to be cloven asunder. Even as
He hath revealed: "On that day shall the heaven be cloven by the
clouds."[1] Even as the clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding
the sun, so do these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing
the light of the divine Luminary.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 71)
warmest, Susan |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Susan Maneck
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
|
|
| Quote: | What is the big difference between: "...such other things as cast doubt in
the minds of men, and cause them to turn away" and "anything that take us
away from devoting our lives to developing the virtues" God wants us to
develop?
|
What's the difference. The difference is your interpretation takes the
original completely out of context. Let's look at the entire sentence
once again:
"In another sense, they mean the appearance of that immortal Beauty in the
image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and
drinking, poverty and riches, glory and abasement, sleeping and
waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and
cause them to turn away."
It is clear from the context that these 'other things' are the human
qualities of the Manifestation, not our inability to develop virtues.
Now the latter may well serve as 'clouds' as well, but they are not
the clouds Baha'u'llah is talking about.
| Quote: |
Perhaps you are saying that devoting our lives to developing virtues is
quite a different thing from turning away from God.
|
Perhaps I'm saying this has nothing to do with what Baha'u'llah says
about clouds.
warmest, Susan |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
|
|
Hi Susan,
Out of context? That would be an interpretation. I see it clearly, and
apparently you don't.
| Quote: | ...and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and
cause them to turn away."
|
You think such "other things" only include "the human qualities of the
Manifestation" that are not included and specifically stated as the
"immortal Beauty in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as
eating and drinking, poverty and riches, glory and abasement, sleeping and
waking". Can you give me an example of such a human quality?
Baha'u'llah, according to you, said the "clouds" were the humanity of the
Manifestation of God. According to me those "clouds" could be much more, up
to and including anything that keeps us from seeing the Glory of God. I
stick by my interpretation, and I believe you are commanded by God to keep
your interpretation if that is your belief based upon your own independent
investigation. I say there are no sanctions that can or should be brought
against anyone with reasoned convictions and belief in the specifically
stated Covenant of Baha'u'llah.
That is the important point. We are commanded to investigate and believe
what we find to be true. I don't see Baha'is doing that, I see them
following quasi-official interpretations given by quasi-official acting
people who don't seen to allow us all to follow God's commands and the
principles of our Faith. We all need to think for ourselves, as commanded
by God, and remove the blinkers of any quasi-clergy who will guide our
spiritual growth. There is no such clergy, and our growth is our own
responsibility.
| Quote: | Perhaps I'm saying this has nothing to do with what Baha'u'llah says
about clouds.
|
At least we agree about that.
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ONSdndCCU_nU6h3VnZ2dnUVZ_tLinZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | What is the big difference between: "...such other things as cast doubt
in
the minds of men, and cause them to turn away" and "anything that take us
away from devoting our lives to developing the virtues" God wants us to
develop?
What's the difference. The difference is your interpretation takes the
original completely out of context. Let's look at the entire sentence
once again:
"In another sense, they mean the appearance of that immortal Beauty in the
image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and
drinking, poverty and riches, glory and abasement, sleeping and
waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and
cause them to turn away."
It is clear from the context that these 'other things' are the human
qualities of the Manifestation, not our inability to develop virtues.
Now the latter may well serve as 'clouds' as well, but they are not
the clouds Baha'u'llah is talking about.
Perhaps you are saying that devoting our lives to developing virtues is
quite a different thing from turning away from God.
Perhaps I'm saying this has nothing to do with what Baha'u'llah says
about clouds.
warmest, Susan
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
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| Quote: | You think such "other things" only include "the human qualities of the
Manifestation" that are not included and specifically stated as the
"immortal Beauty in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as
eating and drinking, poverty and riches, glory and abasement, sleeping and
waking".
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Dear Kent,
That is what the sentence is talking about.
| Quote: | Can you give me an example of such a human quality?
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Not off hand, at least not without getting gross.
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Baha'u'llah, according to you, said the "clouds" were the humanity of the
Manifestation of God.
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In that sentence, yes.
According to me those "clouds" could be much more, up
| Quote: | to and including anything that keeps us from seeing the Glory of God.
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They could be. Just not in that sentence.
I> That is the important point. We are commanded to investigate and believe
| Quote: | what we find to be true. I don't see Baha'is doing that, I see them
following quasi-official interpretations given by quasi-official acting
people who don't seen to allow us all to follow God's commands and the
principles of our Faith.
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Some of us just read the texts carefully and try not to read into it
what we want to see.
warmest, Susan |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
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Hi Susan,
| Quote: | That is what the sentence is talking about.
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Shall we back up a bit? You quoted that passage to show me "That's not how
Baha'u'llah described these 'clouds.'" So it is your contention that this
passage could not mean "much more" than the physical garment of the
Manifestation of God, "up to and including anything that keeps us from
seeing the Glory of God." It certainly appears that is your contention, and
I believe you are much too sure of yourself on two counts.
Firstly, it is not clear at all that when Baha'u'llah says "those things
that are contrary to the ways and desires of men." ... "and such other
things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away"
those of us who read carefully will consider that it does not necessarily
mean "the human qualities of the Manifestation" regardless who says that's
what He meant.
Secondly, there are many other passages that could come to the aid of such a
one as me who finds himself defending the notion that Revelation might have
more than one meaning. I could go on, but I don't think you really want to
defend your position on this.
I am willing to forget it if you are.
--Kent
"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Pf2dnbY7TrASIR3VnZ2dnUVZ_q3inZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | You think such "other things" only include "the human qualities of the
Manifestation" that are not included and specifically stated as the
"immortal Beauty in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations
as
eating and drinking, poverty and riches, glory and abasement, sleeping
and
waking".
Dear Kent,
That is what the sentence is talking about.
Can you give me an example of such a human quality?
Not off hand, at least not without getting gross.
Baha'u'llah, according to you, said the "clouds" were the humanity of the
Manifestation of God.
In that sentence, yes.
According to me those "clouds" could be much more, up
to and including anything that keeps us from seeing the Glory of God.
They could be. Just not in that sentence.
I> That is the important point. We are commanded to investigate and
believe
what we find to be true. I don't see Baha'is doing that, I see them
following quasi-official interpretations given by quasi-official acting
people who don't seen to allow us all to follow God's commands and the
principles of our Faith.
Some of us just read the texts carefully and try not to read into it
what we want to see.
warmest, Susan
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:35 am Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
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| Quote: | Shall we back up a bit? You quoted that passage to show me "That's not how
Baha'u'llah described these 'clouds.'" So it is your contention that this
passage could not mean "much more" than the physical garment of the
Manifestation of God, "up to and including anything that keeps us from
seeing the Glory of God."
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Dear Kent,
I'm saying that particular phrase which you took to infer our failure
to develop virtues was actually about the human nature of the
Manifestation being clouds which prevent us from recognizing Him.
Earlier that passage talks about some other things serving as clouds,
but this isn't the phrase you seized upon.
Susan |
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:35 am Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
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| Quote: | Shall we back up a bit? You quoted that passage to show me "That's not how
Baha'u'llah described these 'clouds.'" So it is your contention that this
passage could not mean "much more" than the physical garment of the
Manifestation of God, "up to and including anything that keeps us from
seeing the Glory of God."
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Dear Kent,
I'm saying that particular phrase which you took to infer our failure
to develop virtues was actually about the human nature of the
Manifestation being clouds which prevent us from recognizing Him.
Earlier that passage talks about some other things serving as clouds,
but this isn't the phrase you seized upon.
Susan |
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Gilberto Simpson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
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Looking at Sears' Thief in the Night might add some interesting
content to the discussion.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:33 PM, Bob <boab@iinet.net.au> wrote:
| Quote: | I am still having ongoing email discussions with Lauren, a very
committed Christian.
Can anyone help me to put together a Baha'i response to this?
I feel like saying that Baha'is would not read these quotations in the
Bible literally and just leave it that
cheers
Bob Abrahams
Hi Bob,
The reason we can be very sure that Jesus hasn't come yet is that
biblical prophecies are unfolding before our eyes. The things that
Jesus predicted would happen are happening now, but there are still
more things to come. So Jesus couldn't be here yet, according to the
bible. Plus it says when He comes every eye will see Him returning to
the Earth the way He left it.
"After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a
cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the
sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood
beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here
looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you
into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into
heaven."" (Acts 1:9-11, NIV)
"On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of
Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to
west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north
and half moving south. " ( Zechariah 14:4, NIV)
Rev 1:7 "Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see
him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will
mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen." NIV
Matt 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the
sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the
Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great
glory." NIV
While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on
them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not
escape. - 1 Thessalonians 5:3
I know as a Bahaii you will probably say that it's symbolic, not
literal and Jesus will different to what we expect... like He was the
first time. But, take the time to watch this video on end times
prophecies coming to pass now. It's long, it's over an hour (5 small
videos all together) but it's the most fascinating thing I've ever
watched. You won't be bored watching it, and it may help you see why
I believe Jesus is still coming.
Talk to you soon,
Lauren.
--- On Tue, 7/15/08, Bob Abrahams <boab@iinet.net.au> wrote:
From: Bob Abrahams <boab@iinet.net.au
Subject: RE: PROGRESSIVE REVELATION
Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 2:42 PM
Baha'is see human progress as an ongoing process of "crisis and
victory" eventually leading to Unity and Peace
True peace won't happen for us until Jesus returns and establishes it
after the tribulation.
What if Jesus has already returned as foretold in the bible and we
missed him. He Himself was not initially accepted and went through
many tribulations before establishing His Station
How would Christians and Muslims (who also believe that he will
return) recognize Christ? Christ returns for everyone. God is too
big or any one religion or religious sect
Cheers
Bob
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2008 8:40 PM
Subject: RE: PROGRESSIVE REVELATION
Oh good, I'm glad you didn't think I was getting too pushy with my
questions! I think the difference is that Christians see the new
world order as a bad thing, not a good thing. True peace won't happen
for us until Jesus returns and establishes it after the tribulation.
I'll have a scout around for some prophetic verses on the new world
order prophecies tommorow.
Lauren.
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Carl Brehmer
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:34 am Post subject: Re: RETURN OF CHRIST |
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Perhaps if we abandon saying that Bahá’u’lláh is the “retur
n of
Christ” and began pointing out that Christ was a previous appearance
of Bahá’u’lláh we might have better success. After all, Bahá’u
’lláh’s
historical proximity and hand-written and lucid Revelation make His
reality much easier to study and understand.
In my view the failure of many Christians to recognize
Bahá’u’lláh has less to do with their failure to understand Christ
’s
prophecies than with their failure to understand Christ, Himself
(primarily because His reality is buried under centuries of
superstition and human interpretation.)
This line of argument might be helpful. The belief that Jesus
will return physically from the physical sky presupposes that He is
now physically present somewhere in the physical heaven, just out of
sight. This in turn presupposes that He ascended physically into the
sky in the first place. A physical ascension, in its turn,
presupposes that He rose physically from the dead. A belief in the
necessity of physical resurrection presupposes that Christ is a
physical being or at least cannot exist without a physical body. The
belief that Christ is a physical being or at least cannot exist
without a physical body ignores that fact that He has existed from the
“beginning,” long before Mary, the mother of His physical body, was
born. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.” John 1:1
Are we to believe that in His original state (in the “beginning”
when the “Word” was “with God”) He was somehow incomplete and only
achieved completeness or only became alive, upon taking on a physical
body in Nazareth two thousand years ago and now cannot return to His
original state of perfection without a physical body? Such a
perception would be roughly equivalent to believing that the sun only
comes into existence when it is reflected in a mirror and dies if the
mirror breaks.
Focusing on teaching Christians who Christ actually was may very
well be a more productive way to lead them to a recognition of
Bahá’u’lláh than arguing the fine points of Biblical prophecy, sinc
e
many of them don’t even apply to this Day and were fulfilled with the
coming of Muhammad centuries ago.
Carl Brehmer |
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