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Elizabeth Bonello
Guest
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 Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:35 am Post subject: Re: TORAH |
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"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-2008031825470001@192.168.1.100...
| Quote: | In article <3F43ECF9.7FCA@ix.netcom.com>, vggarcia@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Michael wrote:
In article <3F437331.1E84@ix.netcom.com>, vggarcia@ix.netcom.com
wrote:
I went ahead and DID post it there--go see for yourself what people
who
speak hebrew have to say about this claim.
I'm afraid you won't like it
Why would I be surprised. Jesus said John 5:46 For had ye believed
Moses,
ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
I am afraid that you woudln't like what they say about that either.
--
point is, you are disseminating verifiably false information that when
someone presents it to a jewish person will further drive them from the
gospel because your claim is rubbish and any hebrew speaker will realize
that.
When is alt.religion.christian.baptist, alt.religion.christian.episcopal,
alt.religion.christian.lutheran, alt.religion.christian.methodist,
alt.religion.christian.pentecostal, alt.religion.christian.presbyterian,
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic Jewish? Verifiably false, that has
not been verified so far. There are Hebrew students that do agree.
So whom are you trying to impress with this false claim about the
letters of the torah? christians? jews?
Trying to impress no one. So whom are you trying to impress with claim
that it is rubbish? Christians? Jews?
|
Is this an alter ego for John W? Anyone who disagrees with him is at best
deluded and at worst a liar! Hmmm....
--
LittleBit
Here is true immorality: ignorance and stupidity; the devil is nothing but
this. His name is Legion.
Gustave Flaubert |
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Michael
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
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In article <3F4400BD.2D11@ix.netcom.com>, vggarcia@ix.netcom.com wrote:
| Quote: | Michael wrote:
In article <3F43ECF9.7FCA@ix.netcom.com>, vggarcia@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Michael wrote:
In article <3F437331.1E84@ix.netcom.com>, vggarcia@ix.netcom.com wrote:
I went ahead and DID post it there--go see for yourself what
people who
speak hebrew have to say about this claim.
I'm afraid you won't like it
Why would I be surprised. Jesus said John 5:46 For had ye
believed Moses,
ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
I am afraid that you woudln't like what they say about that either.
--
point is, you are disseminating verifiably false information that when
someone presents it to a jewish person will further drive them from the
gospel because your claim is rubbish and any hebrew speaker will realize
that.
When is alt.religion.christian.baptist, alt.religion.christian.episcopal,
alt.religion.christian.lutheran, alt.religion.christian.methodist,
alt.religion.christian.pentecostal, alt.religion.christian.presbyterian,
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic Jewish? Verifiably false, that has
not been verified so far. There are Hebrew students that do agree.
like whom? And what is their apologetic for this view?
|
Like Hebrew students that I know. There is no apologitic, just a statement.
| Quote: |
So whom are you trying to impress with this false claim about the
letters of the torah? christians? jews?
Trying to impress no one. So whom are you trying to impress with claim
that it is rubbish? Christians? Jews?
everyone--because false information is false information, and since i'm
sensitive to the subject of proselytzing jews, i know what the fruit of
this false claim you offered is going to be when someone who assumes you
know what you're talking about repeats it to an unbelieving jewish
friend.
|
Then just what exactly is false about it?
| Quote: |
Here are some of the comments by jews who were exposed to your claim
when i asked their opinion:
What a convoluted bunch of crap. Torah means teaching. Now please keep
your missionizing on the Christian group.
|
The comment would be expected, which is why I did not place the posting on
a Jewish newsgroup like a troll would, it was you who acting in the
fashion of a troll by posting it on the Jewish newsgroup. If you are
concerned about the reaction of Jews, they why did you personally get them
to react? There are enough trolls on this newsgroup that it is not
necessary for a Christian to troll the Jewish group. As a brother in
Christ, I am a brother to the sons of Judah, and I wouldn't have posted it
there, I still nonetheless find it worthy of posting.
| Quote: |
---Cindy S.
I thought it meant "instruction".
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Off point, the posting relates to the meaning of the letters, not the
meaning of the word.
| Quote: |
Atzilah
The best definition would be "procedure".
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Same off point commen.
| Quote: |
As in "Zos Toras Ha'Alola".
Binyamin Dissen
Obviously not true.
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So what is, Patricia? And what is obvious to whom?
| Quote: | Patricia Heil
The following meanings are taken from R. Munk's "Wisdom of the Hebrew
Alphabet."
In
the Hebrew Alphabet, thse words mean, in order left to right,
cross or mark,
Tav stands for truth or a seal, not a cross.
|
Ok, but do not foreget that the cursive Hebrew tav is a T, from which the
Greeks and English get the cross of the T. I concur with seal, but the
more common defination is a mark, it is the mark that is the cross in the
letter tav.
| Quote: |
a nail,
Vav means hook, not nail. It stands for physical completion or
connection.
|
Once again, the Wisdom of the Hebrew Alphabet triumphs. Christ was
physically complete and connected to the seal of the covenant.
| Quote: |
the head or leader,
That would be rosh, from 'first' or 'head.' Resh is the first letter
in rasha (wicked one), yet it stands next to Kof, the first letter in
Kedusha (holiness). The letter resh teaches us to turn from
wickedness to holiness.
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Not surprising, as the Lamb of God, the Head of the first fruits, always
teaches.
| Quote: |
ram's horn or power of the lamb,
This letter is not included in Torah, and AFAIK does not mean what you
say above. The Aleph turns into the word 'aleph' (thousand) with a
single vowel change, alluding to the fact that small actions can
accumulate into great achievements.
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Sorry, I errored in including aleph, the cursive aleph is a rams horn, but
it occurs after Torah.
| Quote: |
and what comes from.
I don't see that. Perhaps it is a confused version of this tradition.
Heh is sounded by simply exhaling. Since it is the easiest letter to
speak, tradition says that G-d created the world by the letter Heh,
alluding to the ease with which he created everything.
|
True, I am in complete agreement, however, when placed at the end of a
word, it still means which comes from our Father (G-d for our brothers in
Judah).
| Quote: |
john nixon
Bottom line: this is the kind of esoteric claim that often comes from
some folks on TBN who "slightly" distort hebrew and try to use "magic
apologetics" to prove the Old Testament spoke about Christ in hidden
ways.
|
No so sure that I can agree with your 'bottom line'. Christ Himself said
that Torah speakes of Hiim, but I doubt that Nixon, Atzilah, or Heil would
agree with that either. The bottom line is that Nixon, Atzilah, or Heil
probably wouldn't agree with any Christian or Jew for Jesus on anything in
any event.
It makes no difference to those who already believe, but when it
| Quote: | will invariably be given to a jewish person somewhere down the line, it
will ultimately make Christians look like liars and incompetents when
they check out the info.
|
Since there is no magic nor substantial correction offered above, why
not? Paul commands us always to avoid things which cause our brothers to
stumble. One should always evangelize thoughtfully, led by the Holy
Spirit in prayer. I appreciate your comments about sharing the Gospel;
however, you are not the Holy Spirit.
| Quote: |
Now you claim there are "hebrew students who agree" with you, but here
are remarks from people who speak hebrew who universally deny your
claim.
|
Actually, I agree with Nixon, and I believe that he agrees with me,
although he would never admit it. Atzilah and Heil reject without
substance, which validates a prejudice rather than a truth.
If you have some better evidence that could be used to challenge
| Quote: | the jewish response to this claim about their own language, i would love
to see it, because it would be cool if your claim is right
|
Reread their comments, they haven't invalidated the statement that I
made. Outright denial is not substantive and Nixon's comments are not
materially different.
BTW, not everyone who speaks Hebrew is knowledgeable of Biblical Hebrew,
which no one speaks.
--
Michael
People who donšt read newspapers are better off than those
who do because it is better to be uninformed than misinformed.
-- Thomas Jefferson |
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vince garcia
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
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Michael wrote:
| Quote: |
BTW, not everyone who speaks Hebrew is knowledgeable of Biblical Hebrew,
which no one speaks.
--
Michael
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true, which is why i'm asking what you can give me from scholarly
sources to back up the claim. If it came from Hal Lindsey or Yakov
Rambsel, just say so. If it came from Dr. so-and-so of such-and-such
university, i'd like to know his credentials and apologetic for the view
and then perhaps I can make use of it in my own apologetics for the
faith |
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Jack
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
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In article <mikeburt-2008031534590001@192.168.1.100>, mikeburt@ix.netcom.com (Michael) wrote:
| Quote: | In article <vk72u86ij6ol3d@corp.supernews.com>, Anon@noSpam.net (Jack) wrote:
In article <3F422ED0.2953@ix.netcom.com>, vggarcia@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Michael wrote:
TORAH is the description of the first five books of Christian Scripture
which contains the Law written by Jesus Christ and given to Moses.
Christ, when tabranacling with men fulfilling the Festival of Tabranacles,
taught only from these texts as well as the prophets and histories which
in turn reference Torah which form the balance of the Old Testament.
The Word Torah comes from the Hebrew letters tav-vav-resh-aleph-hey. In
the Hebrew Alphabet, thse words mean, in order left to right, cross or
mark, a nail, the head or leader, ram's horn or power of the lamb, and
what comes from. Reading from right to left, the Hebrew word Torah
literally means What comes from the Power of the Lamb, the Leader nailed
to the Cross.
--
Michael
no it doesn't; the word means "instruction". You shouldn't make up or
repeat such drivel because Jews will blast it apart in two seconds and
Christianity thus gets another black eye.
Very good, vggarcia!
Additionally, there are not "Christian" scriptures.
So say the Jews, I suppose. The Christian Scripture begins in Genesis,
not Matthew, or haven't you noticed?
|
Those Jewish Scriptures were not written by Christians and do not teach the
theologies that separate Christianity from Judaism. The split which began
with the establishment of the Catholic church in 325CE brought non-Biblical
theologies with it.
| Quote: |
All Scripture, even the
NT was penned by Jews.
Not sure that I could agree with you. There is no reference to the Jewish
faith prior to the book of Esther that I can find, can you?
|
It starts in Genesis 1:1.
Adam, Noah, Shem, Eber, Abraham all believed in the Jewish Faith. It did not
become particular to the Jewish people until Abraham.
There was no need for a name for the faith until thousands of years later.
| Quote: | The sons of
Israel are called the children of Israel. Scripture reveals that the
'Jewish faith' was being taught in the Temple in Judea; however, did not
Jesus reject that? (He did not reject the faith of the children of
Israel.)
|
There were many "Jewish Faiths." The Core was the same, but there were
various opinions on many matters. Jesus endorced the faith of the Pharisaic
house Hillel over the other Pharisees and the Saducees. This may be why
Rabban Gamliel the Elder, leader of Beyt Hillel ruled that Jews who believed
in Jesus should not be persecuted (See Acts).
| Quote: |
Even those Jews who followed Jesus were Messianic Jews
worshiping in a Judaic manner, not a Christian manner.
Hmmmmm, must be why Christ rejected what was being taught in the Judaic
manner at the Temple, I suppose.
|
No.
He rejected the theologies of the minority group Beyt Shammai.
Your mistakes are due to the fact that Christianity does not teach the various
Jewish movements of the First century so you are left with comments made by
Jesus, but no context. Various denominations make up their own contexts to
cause His words to agree with their theologies, but they never bother to see
if their contexts are even remotely factual.
| Quote: |
Also, "Torah" is spelled "Tav - Colam Male - Reysh - Hey." There is no
"Alef"
Sorry, already agreed.
and the "Vav" becomes a "Cholan Male" because of the Dagesh over it.
Will research.
Also, Hebrew is written from right to left.
I said that as well.
Tav = Mark (NOT "Cross" "Tzlav" is Hebrew for "Cross").
I agree, but the mark has also been a cross as well.
|
No. The Cross was the sign of Tammuz/Mithra the Babylonian sungod. Later the
Romand used Crossed to murder hundreds of thousands of Jews. The Cross has
always been a symbol of evil and is not part of Hebrew.
| Quote: |
Cholam Male = complete "O."
Will reserve the opinion.
Reysh = poverty
I would agree, but there is also a more literal meaning as well, not that
poverty is not also appropriate.
|
Wrong.
"Poverty" is the literal meaning of "Reysh."
You are confusing it with "Rosh," which means "Head."
| Quote: |
Hey = behold
OK.
If you used Vav for Cholam Male,
Vav = Hook (noun).
OK
The Hebrew for "nail (verb)" is "seemmer."
I an not discuss the word, but the letter. What is your point?
|
The letter means the object, not the verb; you used the verb which is totally
different.
| Quote: |
If you add an "alef" desite the fact that you are mispelling the word,
Alef = "alef"
"Alef" does come from "elef," which means "cattle."
Perhaps, but 'cattle' is generally more specific than that as it is used
in Genesis 1 and 2, I am not sure of your assertion that aleph comes from
elef.
|
"Cattle" means COWS and BULLS, not sheep, lambs, rams, ewes, goats, camels or
deer (at least in Hebrew).
The ancient version was a rough drawing of a cow head.
| Quote: |
So, Michael, if you read the meanings backwards like you sugest:
No, I suggest reading from right to left.
|
After you spelled the word left to right.
You started with the last letter.
| Quote: |
"[cattle] behold poverty O/hook mark."
This makes no sense at all. If you actually believe in Jesus, why tell lies
to try to proove your faith?
Actually, based upon your proofs that I can accept, it reads Behold the
leader hooked to the mark. Not sure that that is substantially
different. Moses was never hooked to the mark, was he?
|
Again, you, who do not speak Hebrew, are changing meanings of Hebrew words to
suit your whim. There is no mention of a "leader" or to anything being
"hooked" the verb for "hooked" is "tzad." You also added "to" and "the."
You are just not being honest
Moses penned the Torah, but he did not use a hook to do it. He certainly went
no where near a cross!
| Quote: |
Of course, an orthodox wouldn't agree. Jesus said at John 5:46 For had ye
believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he [Moses] wrote of me.
They wouldn't agree with that either. So what is the point?
|
According to John 1:1-5 Messiah IS the Torah.
However, most Christians reject the Torah.
There is no need to make up "neat" lies to support a fact that is written in
the Gospel.
| Quote: |
--
Michael
People who donšt read newspapers are better off than those
who do because it is better to be uninformed than misinformed.
-- Thomas Jefferson |
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Jack
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
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In article <mikeburt-2008031825470001@192.168.1.100>, mikeburt@ix.netcom.com (Michael) wrote:
| Quote: | In article <3F43ECF9.7FCA@ix.netcom.com>, vggarcia@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Michael wrote:
In article <3F437331.1E84@ix.netcom.com>, vggarcia@ix.netcom.com wrote:
I went ahead and DID post it there--go see for yourself what people who
speak hebrew have to say about this claim.
I'm afraid you won't like it
Why would I be surprised. Jesus said John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses,
ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
I am afraid that you woudln't like what they say about that either.
--
point is, you are disseminating verifiably false information that when
someone presents it to a jewish person will further drive them from the
gospel because your claim is rubbish and any hebrew speaker will realize
that.
When is alt.religion.christian.baptist, alt.religion.christian.episcopal,
alt.religion.christian.lutheran, alt.religion.christian.methodist,
alt.religion.christian.pentecostal, alt.religion.christian.presbyterian,
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic Jewish? Verifiably false, that has
not been verified so far. There are Hebrew students that do agree.
|
What about Hebrew speaking Jew who accept Jesus as Messiah?
WE say you are lying.
| Quote: |
So whom are you trying to impress with this false claim about the
letters of the torah? christians? jews?
Trying to impress no one. So whom are you trying to impress with claim
that it is rubbish? Christians? Jews?
|
He has impressed me with his honesty
| Quote: |
--
Michael
People who donšt read newspapers are better off than those
who do because it is better to be uninformed than misinformed.
-- Thomas Jefferson |
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Michael
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:06 am Post subject: Re: TORAH |
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In article <vk9q5lfq99fr79@corp.supernews.com>, Anon@noSpam.net (Jack) wrote:
| Quote: | In article <mikeburt-2008031534590001@192.168.1.100>,
mikeburt@ix.netcom.com (Michael) wrote:
In article <vk72u86ij6ol3d@corp.supernews.com>, Anon@noSpam.net (Jack) wrote:
In article <3F422ED0.2953@ix.netcom.com>, vggarcia@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Michael wrote:
TORAH is the description of the first five books of Christian Scripture
which contains the Law written by Jesus Christ and given to Moses.
Christ, when tabranacling with men fulfilling the Festival of
Tabranacles,
taught only from these texts as well as the prophets and histories which
in turn reference Torah which form the balance of the Old Testament.
The Word Torah comes from the Hebrew letters tav-vav-resh-aleph-hey. In
the Hebrew Alphabet, thse words mean, in order left to right, cross or
mark, a nail, the head or leader, ram's horn or power of the lamb, and
what comes from. Reading from right to left, the Hebrew word Torah
literally means What comes from the Power of the Lamb, the Leader nailed
to the Cross.
--
Michael
no it doesn't; the word means "instruction". You shouldn't make up or
repeat such drivel because Jews will blast it apart in two seconds and
Christianity thus gets another black eye.
Very good, vggarcia!
Additionally, there are not "Christian" scriptures.
So say the Jews, I suppose. The Christian Scripture begins in Genesis,
not Matthew, or haven't you noticed?
Those Jewish Scriptures were not written by Christians and do not teach the
theologies that separate Christianity from Judaism.
|
According to Christ, the Scriptures are authoritative, that works for me.
Abraham saw the Lord, are you saying that he was not a Christian? Jesus
descended into hell and ministered to the spirits, they had the
opportunity to be as Christian as anyone else. A Christian is one who has
eaten of the tree of life. Christ is the Tree of Life. The 'theologies
that separate Christianity from Judaism are in the Babylonian Talmud, not
the Tanakh.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old,
and hast thou seen Abraham?
1 Peter 3: 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for
the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the
flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19* By which also he went and preached
unto the spirits in prison; 20* Which sometime were disobedient, when once
the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a
preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The split which began
| Quote: | with the establishment of the Catholic church in 325CE brought non-Biblical
theologies with it.
|
According to Christ, the split between Judaism and the Old Testament began
bringing non-biblical theologies with it long before that. Christians are
of the seed of Abraham.
Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which
God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all
the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
| Quote: |
All Scripture, even the
NT was penned by Jews.
Not sure that I could agree with you. There is no reference to the Jewish
faith prior to the book of Esther that I can find, can you?
It starts in Genesis 1:1.
Adam, Noah, Shem, Eber, Abraham all believed in the Jewish Faith.
|
But can you find one reference in Scripture that they were of the Jewish
faith? (Hint: there is none)
It did not
| Quote: | become particular to the Jewish people until Abraham.
|
Who are the Jewish people? Abraham is the father of both Israel and
Judea. The Jewish faith has many people who are not physically descended
from Abraham, and there are many people descended from Abraham who are not
of the Jewish faith.
| Quote: |
There was no need for a name for the faith until thousands of years later.
|
There was no need for a name for the faith in the Garden of Eden in the
presence of the Tree of Life, but it was still Christianity. Christianity
was perfect when man walks in the cool of the evening with the Father, no
church is required.
| Quote: |
The sons of
Israel are called the children of Israel. Scripture reveals that the
'Jewish faith' was being taught in the Temple in Judea; however, did not
Jesus reject that? (He did not reject the faith of the children of
Israel.)
There were many "Jewish Faiths."
|
Really? What are they?
| Quote: | The Core was the same, but there were
various opinions on many matters. Jesus endorced the faith of the Pharisaic
house Hillel over the other Pharisees and the Saducees.
|
I don't agree, He taught the faith in His Father, if Hillel was of that
faith, that is to his credit.
This may be why
| Quote: | Rabban Gamliel the Elder, leader of Beyt Hillel ruled that Jews who believed
in Jesus should not be persecuted (See Acts).
|
A wise pronouncement, if he believed in the Son, he knew the Father.
Would that make him Christian or Jewish?
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
| Quote: |
Even those Jews who followed Jesus were Messianic Jews
worshiping in a Judaic manner, not a Christian manner.
Hmmmmm, must be why Christ rejected what was being taught in the Judaic
manner at the Temple, I suppose.
No.
He rejected the theologies of the minority group Beyt Shammai.
|
Then are you saying that He endorsed the 'theologies' of the majority?
Hmmm, then why was He crucified?
| Quote: |
Your mistakes are due to the fact that Christianity does not teach the
various
Jewish movements of the First century so you are left with comments made by
Jesus, but no context. Various denominations make up their own contexts to
cause His words to agree with their theologies, but they never bother to see
if their contexts are even remotely factual.
|
His comments are in context to that which He stated in the Old Testament,
which He affirmed often and taught exclusively. Nothing in His teachings
are new, only His fulfillment of the ordinances. That is more of a
reformation, not an invention.
John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he
wrote of me.
John 14:7* If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and
from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
| Quote: |
Also, "Torah" is spelled "Tav - Colam Male - Reysh - Hey." There is no
"Alef"
Sorry, already agreed.
and the "Vav" becomes a "Cholan Male" because of the Dagesh over it.
Will research.
Also, Hebrew is written from right to left.
I said that as well.
Tav = Mark (NOT "Cross" "Tzlav" is Hebrew for "Cross").
I agree, but the mark has also been a cross as well.
No. The Cross was the sign of Tammuz/Mithra the Babylonian sungod.
Later the
Romand used Crossed to murder hundreds of thousands of Jews. The Cross has
always been a symbol of evil and is not part of Hebrew.
|
It is still the mark of the cursive tav. And was still originally written
as a cross. It literally means a sign or seal as used in Ezra 9:4 where it
is translated as a "mark" to be put on the foreheads of the diviinly
protected ones. This is the ancient origin of the practice of writing the
sign of the cross on one's forehead.
| Quote: |
Cholam Male = complete "O."
Will reserve the opinion.
Reysh = poverty
I would agree, but there is also a more literal meaning as well, not that
poverty is not also appropriate.
Wrong.
"Poverty" is the literal meaning of "Reysh."
You are confusing it with "Rosh," which means "Head."
|
And again, I am discussing the origin of the letter, not the meaning of
many letters making up other words.
Repeating from R. Munk's "Wisdom of the Hebrew
Alphabet." provided from the Jewish comments earlier.
the head or leader,
That would be rosh, from 'first' or 'head.' Resh is the first letter
in rasha (wicked one), yet it stands next to Kof, the first letter in
Kedusha (holiness). The letter resh teaches us to turn from
wickedness to holiness.
The comment does not address the source of the letter; only the meaning
associated with it, which renders the same. He does not address the
origin of the letter resh, but his comments are not contradictory.
| Quote: |
Hey = behold
OK.
If you used Vav for Cholam Male,
Vav = Hook (noun).
OK
The Hebrew for "nail (verb)" is "seemmer."
I an not discuss the word, but the letter. What is your point?
The letter means the object, not the verb; you used the verb which is totally
different.
|
The nail is a noun, not a verb. I did not use the verb. The diacritics
for Cholam Male is also an irrelevant subject and describe how to
pronounce it, not what it represents. We all know that it is pronounced
O, that is why we say Torah.
| Quote: |
If you add an "alef" desite the fact that you are mispelling the word,
Alef = "alef"
"Alef" does come from "elef," which means "cattle."
Perhaps, but 'cattle' is generally more specific than that as it is used
in Genesis 1 and 2, I am not sure of your assertion that aleph comes from
elef.
"Cattle" means COWS and BULLS, not sheep, lambs, rams, ewes, goats, camels or
deer (at least in Hebrew).
|
You may want to re-read the Talmud regarding its use in Genesis 2.
| Quote: |
The ancient version was a rough drawing of a cow head.
|
Are you referring to the block or cursive form?
| Quote: |
So, Michael, if you read the meanings backwards like you sugest:
No, I suggest reading from right to left.
After you spelled the word left to right.
|
In Hebrew, it would be right to left.
| Quote: |
You started with the last letter.
|
No, I started with the first letter.
| Quote: |
"[cattle] behold poverty O/hook mark."
This makes no sense at all. If you actually believe in Jesus, why
tell lies
to try to proove your faith?
Actually, based upon your proofs that I can accept, it reads Behold the
leader hooked to the mark. Not sure that that is substantially
different. Moses was never hooked to the mark, was he?
Again, you, who do not speak Hebrew, are changing meanings of Hebrew words to
suit your whim. There is no mention of a "leader" or to anything being
"hooked" the verb for "hooked" is "tzad." You also added "to" and "the."
|
Actually, I didn't. Are you an expert in Biblical Hebrew? Unless you
have an English Doctorate, perhaps you should let others do the English
for you? The verb for hooked is irrelevant to the derivative of a
specific letter.
| Quote: |
You are just not being honest
|
Who made you the judge? God will judge, not you. BTW, you comment is not
a Christian one, neither was the way the original was posted into a Jewish
newsgroup.
| Quote: |
Moses penned the Torah, but he did not use a hook to do it. He
certainly went
no where near a cross!
|
Really, re-read about the serpant raised up in the wilderness. (It is
cross referenced to the cross)
| Quote: |
Of course, an orthodox wouldn't agree. Jesus said at John 5:46 For had ye
believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he [Moses] wrote of me.
They wouldn't agree with that either. So what is the point?
According to John 1:1-5 Messiah IS the Torah.
However, most Christians reject the Torah.
|
Sad, but true, but then, most Christians have no clue what the Torah says
and even less its meaning and relevance to that which Christ taught,
affirmed and fulfilled.
| Quote: |
There is no need to make up "neat" lies to support a fact that is written in
the Gospel.
|
I agree, I didn't. I still stand by the original.
--
Michael
People who donšt read newspapers are better off than those
who do because it is better to be uninformed than misinformed.
-- Thomas Jefferson |
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Knut Klaveness Heidelberg
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
|
|
On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:00:34 GMT, vince garcia wrote:
| Quote: | a non-christian jewish source
|
What's a "non-christian jewish source"?
--
Yours, Knut
http://home.no/shalom
(updated June 8 2003) |
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Knut Klaveness Heidelberg
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
|
|
On Wed, 20 Aug 03 15:02:11 GMT, Jack wrote:
| Quote: | I am a Jew AND a believer in Messiah. So, I have no adgenda against the idea
that Jesus is Messiah.
|
Does this make you a Christian? If not, what's the difference between a
Norwegian (not Jewish) believing in Christ and a Norwegian Jew believing in
Christ? Are they not both Christians?
Just asking.
--
Yours, Knut
http://home.no/shalom
(updated June 8 2003) |
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Jack
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:02 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
|
|
In article <i60xqynobnhv.ecuwumbx22lq.dlg@40tude.net>, Knut Klaveness Heidelberg <heidelberg@theology.zzn.com>
<mikeburt-0708030852460001@192.168.1.100> <iiq4jv4aosnltj0blec4p57ss7ep8rf45q@4ax.com> <vkOYa.2701$M6.182201@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <mikeburt-1108030915570001@192.168.1.100> <hgnfjvo9kkrs5ai1kc87as13qctvdn6lcf@4ax.com> <mikeburt-1108031730530001@192.168.1.100>
<mikeburt-1808030858380001@192.168.1.100> <3F422ED0.2953@ix.netcom.com> <mikeburt-1908031743420001@192.168.1.100> <3F42ADC8.2D5D@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:00:34 GMT, vince garcia wrote:
a non-christian jewish source
What's a "non-christian jewish source"?
|
A reliable one.
LOL
| Quote: |
--
Yours, Knut
http://home.no/shalom
(updated June 8 2003) |
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Jack
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
|
|
In article <1bib7ws58l6kc$.103suct7z1eeh.dlg@40tude.net>, Knut Klaveness Heidelberg <heidelberg@theology.zzn.com>
<mikeburt-0708030852460001@192.168.1.100> <iiq4jv4aosnltj0blec4p57ss7ep8rf45q@4ax.com> <vkOYa.2701$M6.182201@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <mikeburt-1108030915570001@192.168.1.100> <hgnfjvo9kkrs5ai1kc87as13qctvdn6lcf@4ax.com> <mikeburt-1108031730530001@192.168.1.100>
<mikeburt-1808030858380001@192.168.1.100> <3F422ED0.2953@ix.netcom.com> <mikeburt-1908031743420001@192.168.1.100> <3F42ADC8.2D5D@ix.netcom.com> <vk73bijatasf3e@corp.supernews.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 20 Aug 03 15:02:11 GMT, Jack wrote:
I am a Jew AND a believer in Messiah. So, I have no adgenda against the idea
that Jesus is Messiah.
Does this make you a Christian? If not, what's the difference between a
Norwegian (not Jewish) believing in Christ and a Norwegian Jew believing in
Christ? Are they not both Christians?
|
Christians do not accept the Covenant that God made with Abraham. I was part
of the Covenant 3200+ years before I was born and have no wish to separate
myself from it.
| Quote: |
Just asking.
--
Yours, Knut
http://home.no/shalom
(updated June 8 2003) |
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Aaron
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:35 am Post subject: Re: TORAH |
|
|
On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:42:37 GMT, vince garcia
<vggarcia@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Jack wrote:
In article <1bib7ws58l6kc$.103suct7z1eeh.dlg@40tude.net>, Knut Klaveness Heidelberg <heidelberg@theology.zzn.com
mikeburt-0708030852460001@192.168.1.100> <iiq4jv4aosnltj0blec4p57ss7ep8rf45q@4ax.com> <vkOYa.2701$M6.182201@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <mikeburt-1108030915570001@192.168.1.100> <hgnfjvo9kkrs5ai1kc87as13qctvdn6lcf@4ax.com> <mikeburt-1108031730530001@192.168.1.100
mikeburt-1808030858380001@192.168.1.100> <3F422ED0.2953@ix.netcom.com> <mikeburt-1908031743420001@192.168.1.100> <3F42ADC8.2D5D@ix.netcom.com> <vk73bijatasf3e@corp.supernews.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 03 15:02:11 GMT, Jack wrote:
I am a Jew AND a believer in Messiah. So, I have no adgenda against the idea
that Jesus is Messiah.
Does this make you a Christian? If not, what's the difference between a
Norwegian (not Jewish) believing in Christ and a Norwegian Jew believing in
Christ? Are they not both Christians?
Christians do not accept the Covenant that God made with Abraham. I was part
of the Covenant 3200+ years before I was born and have no wish to separate
myself from it.
This is not necesarily true. There are Observant messiancs who are
Christian and some of them would say that covenant was never brought to
an end, but gentile christianity has misunderstood the writings of Paul
on this issue and mistakenly taught that.
|
If a person is Messianic, he is NOT Christian. He may be Gentile, but
that is geneology, not religion.
The Gentiles definately misunderstood what Paul wrote and seemingly
gave Paul the authority to denounce what Jesus taught.
| Quote: | That's not my view but I know
jewish christians who do think that.
|
If the are Jewish, they are not Christians.
They may be Israelite, but that is geneology, not religion.
The people you describe are Messianic Jews who follow what Jesus
taught.
| Quote: | So it is patently untrue to say
that for a Jew to become a Christian means he must abandon judaism.
|
you are misdefining "Christianity." Christianity is belief that Jesus
is the Messiah, but rejection of the Covenant. Messianic Judaism is
acceptance of Jesus as Messian and acceptance of the Covenant.
| Quote: | But
he DOES have to reject the rabinnic understanding of how ones is
forgiven by God for his sins in favor of what Christianity teaches
|
Then you have not actually studied the talmud which says that we are
saved by Chesed (grace) alone? Which also says that Messiah is to
redeem humanity in the month of Nissan (Passover time).
For a Jew to follow Messiah, he must accept that jesus is the Messiah
and reject what Christianity has said about the Covenant and about the
Law of God and simply obey God out of love realizing that his
salvation is a matter of grace. |
|
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vince garcia
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
|
|
Aaron wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:42:37 GMT, vince garcia
vggarcia@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Jack wrote:
In article <1bib7ws58l6kc$.103suct7z1eeh.dlg@40tude.net>, Knut Klaveness Heidelberg <heidelberg@theology.zzn.com
mikeburt-0708030852460001@192.168.1.100> <iiq4jv4aosnltj0blec4p57ss7ep8rf45q@4ax.com> <vkOYa.2701$M6.182201@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <mikeburt-1108030915570001@192.168.1.100> <hgnfjvo9kkrs5ai1kc87as13qctvdn6lcf@4ax.com> <mikeburt-1108031730530001@192.168.1.100
mikeburt-1808030858380001@192.168.1.100> <3F422ED0.2953@ix.netcom.com> <mikeburt-1908031743420001@192.168.1.100> <3F42ADC8.2D5D@ix.netcom.com> <vk73bijatasf3e@corp.supernews.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 03 15:02:11 GMT, Jack wrote:
I am a Jew AND a believer in Messiah. So, I have no adgenda against the idea
that Jesus is Messiah.
Does this make you a Christian? If not, what's the difference between a
Norwegian (not Jewish) believing in Christ and a Norwegian Jew believing in
Christ? Are they not both Christians?
Christians do not accept the Covenant that God made with Abraham. I was part
of the Covenant 3200+ years before I was born and have no wish to separate
myself from it.
This is not necesarily true. There are Observant messiancs who are
Christian and some of them would say that covenant was never brought to
an end, but gentile christianity has misunderstood the writings of Paul
on this issue and mistakenly taught that.
If a person is Messianic, he is NOT Christian. He may be Gentile, but
that is geneology, not religion.
The Gentiles definately misunderstood what Paul wrote and seemingly
gave Paul the authority to denounce what Jesus taught.
|
they slightly misunderstood it and took it to mean that everyone had to
repudiate torah. Not so--the Torah is still there for the jews to
observe as a means of retaining a cultural identity, but it is NOT a
perptual covenant that God requires all people to keep.
Then said he, Lo, I come to do
thy will, O God. He taketh away
the first, that he may establish
the second.
The first covenant has been "taken away" in the sense that it is no
longer any sort of basis upon which God accepts a man. God accepts a man
now only by faith. Whether he trims the corner of his beard or eats
shellfish has no bearing on God's approval of him
| Quote: |
That's not my view but I know
jewish christians who do think that.
If the are Jewish, they are not Christians.
They may be Israelite, but that is geneology, not religion.
The people you describe are Messianic Jews who follow what Jesus
taught.
So it is patently untrue to say
that for a Jew to become a Christian means he must abandon judaism.
you are misdefining "Christianity." Christianity is belief that Jesus
is the Messiah, but rejection of the Covenant. Messianic Judaism is
acceptance of Jesus as Messian and acceptance of the Covenant.
But
he DOES have to reject the rabinnic understanding of how ones is
forgiven by God for his sins in favor of what Christianity teaches
Then you have not actually studied the talmud which says that we are
saved by Chesed (grace) alone?
|
Even if the Talmud says something like that somewhere inside it, I've
had orthodox jews flat out say "salvation has always been by works" in
my dialogue with them, and Judaism affirms that is the basis of
salvation. As my friend Moshe Shulman, a Chassidic scholar, has put it:
"if you do what's expected, Heaven is the reward". Moshe does not
believe in going to heaven because of God's grace alone, and certainly
not through faith. And I HAVE seen where the talmud teaches forgiveness
of sin comes by repentance, prayer and giving alms or doing good deeds.
Certainly the talmud would deny the sacrifice of Christ atones for sin,
correct? |
|
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| Back to top |
Michael Burt
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
|
|
In article <3F44C34E.1A3C@ix.netcom.com>,
vince garcia <vggarcia@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Michael wrote:
BTW, not everyone who speaks Hebrew is knowledgeable of Biblical Hebrew,
which no one speaks.
--
Michael
true, which is why i'm asking what you can give me from scholarly
sources to back up the claim. If it came from Hal Lindsey or Yakov
Rambsel, just say so. If it came from Dr. so-and-so of such-and-such
university, i'd like to know his credentials and apologetic for the view
and then perhaps I can make use of it in my own apologetics for the
faith
|
Sounds like a proposal, but first you didn't like what I said because
you made a judement that I was not a scholar, then when I cited Gill,
you didn't like him because he wasn't apparently the right kind of
scholar. I am not convinced that you are interested in the subject, but
trying to figure out a way to dismiss the subject.
BTW, following the law won't save anyone, neither Jew nor Christian, and
being saved doesn't require following the law. Being saved as a
Christian is instaneaous and without any requirement other than faith as
was credited to Abraham (Genesis 15:6); it is called justification, and
that work was done by Christ for all men. That is the defination of
Christian. However, once saved, the process of santification merely
begins and that takes a lifetime. It is in this process that our Father
will write His law upon the heart (which is not different that the law
first written on emerald or crystal by God and later on stone by Moses).
Pauls message was not anti-law; it was that justification (being saved
or born again, or better, born from above) carries no requirement other
than faith in our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. After that,
santification begins, there are Christians in various stages of
santification. That does not make some Christians better than others,
for wherever they are in the process, they are better sons of God than
they were before. The speed of the process of santification is selected
by the believer; however, a slow process stores less riches in heaven.
A Christian obedient to the law and one who was decieved as to the law's
importance are both Christian as it is not a requirement to know,
understand, nor to follow the law first.
You seem to be saying that to be a 'true' Christian, one must be Jewish
first. There is no requirement in Scripture to support that. Adam,
Moses, Abraham, David, and Paul were still Christians, yet they all
disobeyed the law on occassion.
If such as the ilk of Adolph Hitler truly accepted Christ just before
death, his salvation is nonetheless complete. He would, however, be the
most 'naked' man in heaven due to the consequences of what he chose to
bind in heaven and the consequences of his sin, which even if forgieven
by the Father, stored no riches in heaven. Under the law, his sins also
require a trial before the Throne, and the witnesses of his victems,
both Christian and Jew, know the truth of what he did, and the Supreme
Judge knows what was in his heart. It is not a trial that I would look
forward to.
Paul's messsage to Jews was different than the message to pagans for the
Jews 'knew' the law; however, knowing the law is not a requirement for
justification. |
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Jack
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:28 am Post subject: Re: TORAH |
|
|
In article <3F4B5B9C.3F08@ix.netcom.com>, vggarcia@ix.netcom.com wrote:
| Quote: | Aaron wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:42:37 GMT, vince garcia
vggarcia@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Jack wrote:
In article <1bib7ws58l6kc$.103suct7z1eeh.dlg@40tude.net>, Knut Klaveness
Heidelberg <heidelberg@theology.zzn.com
mikeburt-0708030852460001@192.168.1.100
iiq4jv4aosnltj0blec4p57ss7ep8rf45q@4ax.com
vkOYa.2701$M6.182201@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net
mikeburt-1108030915570001@192.168.1.100
hgnfjvo9kkrs5ai1kc87as13qctvdn6lcf@4ax.com
mikeburt-1108031730530001@192.168.1.100
mikeburt-1808030858380001@192.168.1.100> <3F422ED0.2953@ix.netcom.com
mikeburt-1908031743420001@192.168.1.100> <3F42ADC8.2D5D@ix.netcom.com
vk73bijatasf3e@corp.supernews.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 03 15:02:11 GMT, Jack wrote:
I am a Jew AND a believer in Messiah. So, I have no adgenda against
the idea
that Jesus is Messiah.
Does this make you a Christian? If not, what's the difference between a
Norwegian (not Jewish) believing in Christ and a Norwegian Jew believing
in
Christ? Are they not both Christians?
Christians do not accept the Covenant that God made with Abraham. I was
part
of the Covenant 3200+ years before I was born and have no wish to separate
myself from it.
This is not necesarily true. There are Observant messiancs who are
Christian and some of them would say that covenant was never brought to
an end, but gentile christianity has misunderstood the writings of Paul
on this issue and mistakenly taught that.
If a person is Messianic, he is NOT Christian. He may be Gentile, but
that is geneology, not religion.
The Gentiles definately misunderstood what Paul wrote and seemingly
gave Paul the authority to denounce what Jesus taught.
they slightly misunderstood it and took it to mean that everyone had to
repudiate torah. Not so--the Torah is still there for the jews to
observe as a means of retaining a cultural identity, but it is NOT a
perptual covenant that God requires all people to keep.
|
The Bible disagrees with you.
It says over and over in the Torah that Gentiles who come to know God are
under the same law as the Jews. Additionally, Jesus said that all of the
commandments were in full effect until "Heaven and Earth pass away." Heaven
and Earth are still here.
| Quote: |
Then said he, Lo, I come to do
thy will, O God. He taketh away
the first, that he may establish
the second.
The first covenant has been "taken away" in the sense that it is no
longer any sort of basis upon which God accepts a man. God accepts a man
now only by faith. Whether he trims the corner of his beard or eats
shellfish has no bearing on God's approval of him
|
Whoa there!
There is no promise in the Torah that says that you will be saved if you keep
all 613 Commandments perfectly. Messiah is the only means of salvation. Yes
Messiah commanded ALL of his followers to uphold all 613 Commandments, but not
as a means of salvation.
Wheather you trim your beard or eat shellfish only has bearing is you know
that God forbid these evil actions, as you obviously do. Now "approval" and
"Salvation" are two different words. Will you loose your salvation by eating
pork? Only if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit in this action. according to
Numbers 15:30&31 and Hebrews 10:26-29, you blaspheme against the holy Spirit
if you rebell against God by so doing. On way that a person may rebell
in so doing is to adopt Antinomianism, the theology og the Anti-Christ,
according to Second Thessalonians, chapter 2. This would be manefest by
the claim that the Commandment does not apply to you.
| Quote: |
That's not my view but I know
jewish christians who do think that.
If the are Jewish, they are not Christians.
They may be Israelite, but that is geneology, not religion.
The people you describe are Messianic Jews who follow what Jesus
taught.
So it is patently untrue to say
that for a Jew to become a Christian means he must abandon judaism.
you are misdefining "Christianity." Christianity is belief that Jesus
is the Messiah, but rejection of the Covenant. Messianic Judaism is
acceptance of Jesus as Messiah and acceptance of the Covenant.
But
he DOES have to reject the rabinnic understanding of how ones is
forgiven by God for his sins in favor of what Christianity teaches
Then you have not actually studied the talmud which says that we are
saved by Chesed (grace) alone?
Even if the Talmud says something like that somewhere inside it, I've
had orthodox jews flat out say "salvation has always been by works" in
my dialogue with them, and Judaism affirms that is the basis of
salvation. As my friend Moshe Shulman, a Chassidic scholar, has put it:
"if you do what's expected, Heaven is the reward". Moshe does not
believe in going to heaven because of God's grace alone, and certainly
not through faith. And I HAVE seen where the talmud teaches forgiveness
of sin comes by repentance, prayer and giving alms or doing good deeds.
Certainly the talmud would deny the sacrifice of Christ atones for sin,
correct?
|
Salvation by Grace is in both the Torah and the Talmud. Works are stressed by
many rabbis because somone who does no works has no faith. Also a person of
weak faith can find his faith strengthened by obeying God even if he begins
doing good works with some amount of confusion.
Some Talmidic sages theorized that charity could replace the temple sacrifice.
They got the idea of Grace correct, but not the replacement for animal
offerings. Though even the Talmud says that when Messiah comes, our offerings
will consist of prayers and praise. |
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Michael Burt
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Same-Sex Marriages? NO . . HELL NO! |
|
|
In article <vjjoiv0g7t2q6s5n7m08vtbqd0uen7gugt@4ax.com>,
Don <calldonREMOVE@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 11:33:38 -0500, "Scott" <brn2dipATyahooDOTcom
wrote:
Yes, I'm top posting. I'm not going to be dignifying any
of Don's posts with any reply other than this one. As far
as I am concerned, based on experience, he is just looking
to stir up trouble and I'm not going to let him lead me down
the same non-productive path he did the last time.
In other words, you have never led a gay person to the Lord? You do
not know even one gay person who has become heterosexual as a result
of your personal ministry to them? You probably don't even know any
gay people!
|
Fortunately such bad logic is not widely acceptable, otherwise, a jury
in a murder trial could only be composed of murderers, and they
sometimes have a different viewpoint of whether murder is right or
wrong. The problem with morality by democracy is that satan gets equal
voting rights with God.
| Quote: |
Typical. Plenty of blather but no actions to back-up your blathering.
D*
=========
"django" <nacmax43@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8469ce24.0308020754.1202df50@posting.google.com...
Don <calldonREMOVE@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<n67miv8gc84kgf2q2ipbrggedtb00441i1@4ax.com>...
On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 18:49:42 -0500, "Scott" <brn2dipATyahooDOTcom
wrote:
The thing is, when does claiming the Bible doesn't mean what it said
stop?
Hey Scott, do women cover their head in your church? Do women keep
silence in your church? Are there any one-eyed folks in your church?
Are there any one-armed people in your church? Do you all "greet each
other with a holy kiss" in your church?
Not trying to be contensious...just wondering how literally you
believe and practice the Bible.
Not you Don, you would never be contentious. None of the above
are below that you have written exornerates homosexual practice
from being a sin condemned by God in His word.
Oh...and how many homosexuals have you lead to the Lord? How many
homosexuals have become heterosexual (according to 1Cor6:9-11) as a
result of your personal witness? Remember THAT is what all the
"ex-gay"ministries claim should happen...
You wouldn't be trying to discourage Scott from taking a
biblically moral postition/stance against homosexuality
would you?
then your former lesbian wife
drops 6 or 8 kids, thereby proving that you are now healed.
(Becoming pregnant is only proof that your plumbing works.)
D*
PS...no, I do not have all of the answers. But I am still waiting to
meet an authentic, objectively-proven "former homosexual."
Don does this apply to you? Having a form of godliness,
but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
II Tim. 3:5
Ever met Joe Dallas? How is he doing these days?
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Remember Don, this can apply just as easily to you
as you deny the word of God and promote homosexual
practice.
People think that epilepsy is divine simply because they don't have any idea
what causes epilepsy.
But I believe that someday we will understand what causes epilepsy, and at
that moment,
we will cease to believe that it's divine. And so it is with everything in
the universe.
--Hippocrates, 5th century |
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