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Jack
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 Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
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In article <3F4D20E1.1087@ix.netcom.com>, vggarcia@ix.netcom.com wrote:
| Quote: | Jack wrote:
In article <3F4B5B9C.3F08@ix.netcom.com>, vggarcia@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Aaron wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:42:37 GMT, vince garcia
vggarcia@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Jack wrote:
In article <1bib7ws58l6kc$.103suct7z1eeh.dlg@40tude.net>, Knut
Klaveness
Heidelberg <heidelberg@theology.zzn.com
mikeburt-0708030852460001@192.168.1.100
iiq4jv4aosnltj0blec4p57ss7ep8rf45q@4ax.com
vkOYa.2701$M6.182201@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net
mikeburt-1108030915570001@192.168.1.100
hgnfjvo9kkrs5ai1kc87as13qctvdn6lcf@4ax.com
mikeburt-1108031730530001@192.168.1.100
mikeburt-1808030858380001@192.168.1.100
3F422ED0.2953@ix.netcom.com
mikeburt-1908031743420001@192.168.1.100> <3F42ADC8.2D5D@ix.netcom.com
vk73bijatasf3e@corp.supernews.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 03 15:02:11 GMT, Jack wrote:
I am a Jew AND a believer in Messiah. So, I have no adgenda against
the idea
that Jesus is Messiah.
Does this make you a Christian? If not, what's the difference between
a
Norwegian (not Jewish) believing in Christ and a Norwegian Jew
believing
in
Christ? Are they not both Christians?
Christians do not accept the Covenant that God made with Abraham. I
was
part
of the Covenant 3200+ years before I was born and have no wish to
separate
myself from it.
This is not necesarily true. There are Observant messiancs who are
Christian and some of them would say that covenant was never brought to
an end, but gentile christianity has misunderstood the writings of Paul
on this issue and mistakenly taught that.
If a person is Messianic, he is NOT Christian. He may be Gentile, but
that is geneology, not religion.
The Gentiles definately misunderstood what Paul wrote and seemingly
gave Paul the authority to denounce what Jesus taught.
they slightly misunderstood it and took it to mean that everyone had to
repudiate torah. Not so--the Torah is still there for the jews to
observe as a means of retaining a cultural identity, but it is NOT a
perptual covenant that God requires all people to keep.
The Bible disagrees with you.
It says over and over in the Torah that Gentiles who come to know God are
under the same law as the Jews. Additionally, Jesus said that all of the
commandments were in full effect until "Heaven and Earth pass away." Heaven
and Earth are still here.
Then said he, Lo, I come to do
thy will, O God. He taketh away
the first, that he may establish
the second.
The first covenant has been "taken away" in the sense that it is no
longer any sort of basis upon which God accepts a man. God accepts a man
now only by faith. Whether he trims the corner of his beard or eats
shellfish has no bearing on God's approval of him
Whoa there!
There is no promise in the Torah that says that you will be saved if you keep
all 613 Commandments perfectly. Messiah is the only means of salvation. Yes
Messiah commanded ALL of his followers to uphold all 613 Commandments, but
not
as a means of salvation.
including animal sacrifice? (follow-up question--what happens when the
jews rebuild their temple? Must Christians bring animal sacrifices
there?)
|
First: The Offering is the Command. The killing of the animals is a technique
instructed to give the offering prior to the coming of Messiah, so you can
obey the Commandment.
According to Isaiah, when Messiah sits in the Temple (Not the anti-Christ
pretending to be Messiah) He will command blood offerings to be given. So, I
personally will obey Jesus when he returns.
| Quote: |
Including denial into the messianic community of anyone who happened to
be descended from the moabites?
|
You are misreading the Commandment. Any man who comes from the nation of Moab
(which has not existed for well over sixty generations) may enter into the
Jewish Community but cannot marry a Jewish woman. A man of his line may marry
a Jewish woman in the Tenth generation. Of course since Moab has been gone
for well over 60 generations you are forced to obey this by default.
| Quote: |
Inclucding circumcision, since the tanakah says one must be circumcised
of both heart AND flesh?
|
Of course, if one is part of the Covenant. Circumcision into a non-Messianic
form of Judaism was forbidden by Paul in Galatians and elsewhere.
According to the Bible, Deuteronomy 30, Circumcision of the Heart will occur
only after the Tribulation and the return after the tribulation. Of Course
the tribulation ends with the return of Messiah, so He personally takes care
of this prophecy.
| Quote: |
Wheather you trim your beard or eat shellfish only has bearing is you know
that God forbid these evil actions, as you obviously do. Now "approval" and
"Salvation" are two different words. Will you loose your salvation by eating
pork? Only if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit in this action. according to
Numbers 15:30&31 and Hebrews 10:26-29, you blaspheme against the holy Spirit
if you rebell against God by so doing. On way that a person may rebell
in so doing is to adopt Antinomianism, the theology og the Anti-Christ,
according to Second Thessalonians, chapter 2. This would be manefest by
the claim that the Commandment does not apply to you.
I'm afraid Paul does not agree with this:
Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become
uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him
not be circumcised.
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing,
but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he
was called.
Not--"let everyone make sure they keep Torah" But "Let him not become
circumcised" and "remain in the state he was called"
|
You are failing to note that according to Paul this is NOT the Word of God,
but his opinion. As such it cannot be universally applied. If you were in
one of the synagogues in Corinth c. 1960 years ago, it was an advisable
rabbinical ruling.
| Quote: |
Of course paul is not talking ONLY about physical circumcision (else he
would not have told Jews not to become "uncircumsised", which means to
abandon torah), but rather refers, when speaking to we gentiles, to the
notion of becoming "circumcised" which means to keep mosaic law as a
lifestyle.
|
Now you are really reaching.
He is talking about hasty conversions to Judaism. Conversion to Judaism was a
two step process then. the first step was to abondon idolatry and accept the
one true God and the seven Noachide Laws. At this point the Gentile
became a Ger Toshav (Foreign Convert). All the Gentiles who accepted Jesus
went at least this far. Then after study and preparation the Gentile could
commit himself to obeying all 613 Commandments, be immersed for the first
time, and become a Ger Tzedek (Righteous Convert). Since conversion is a
one-way door, it should not be taken lightly. You and all your descendants
become responcible for all of the Law. A lot of Gentiles got excited and
wanted to convert, as happens today, but they were not ready.
According to the NT, many Gentiles went all the way with their conversion to
Judaism.
| Quote: |
That's not my view but I know
jewish christians who do think that.
If the are Jewish, they are not Christians.
They may be Israelite, but that is geneology, not religion.
The people you describe are Messianic Jews who follow what Jesus
taught.
So it is patently untrue to say
that for a Jew to become a Christian means he must abandon judaism.
you are misdefining "Christianity." Christianity is belief that Jesus
is the Messiah, but rejection of the Covenant. Messianic Judaism is
acceptance of Jesus as Messiah and acceptance of the Covenant.
But
he DOES have to reject the rabinnic understanding of how ones is
forgiven by God for his sins in favor of what Christianity teaches
Then you have not actually studied the talmud which says that we are
saved by Chesed (grace) alone?
Even if the Talmud says something like that somewhere inside it, I've
had orthodox jews flat out say "salvation has always been by works" in
my dialogue with them, and Judaism affirms that is the basis of
salvation. As my friend Moshe Shulman, a Chassidic scholar, has put it:
"if you do what's expected, Heaven is the reward". Moshe does not
believe in going to heaven because of God's grace alone, and certainly
not through faith. And I HAVE seen where the talmud teaches forgiveness
of sin comes by repentance, prayer and giving alms or doing good deeds.
Certainly the talmud would deny the sacrifice of Christ atones for sin,
correct?
Salvation by Grace is in both the Torah and the Talmud. Works are stressed
by
many rabbis because somone who does no works has no faith. Also a person of
weak faith can find his faith strengthened by obeying God even if he begins
doing good works with some amount of confusion.
Some Talmidic sages theorized that charity could replace the temple
sacrifice.
They got the idea of Grace correct, but not the replacement for animal
offerings. Though even the Talmud says that when Messiah comes, our
offerings
will consist of prayers and praise.
Unfortunately people who believe the philospophy of the talmud spend
eternity in hell because the philosophical teachings of the talmud
cannot save you. Only Christ can, and the people who wrote the talmud
rejected both Christ and His atonement in favor of their own beliefs.
|
Your anti-Jesus claim is not correct.
I say "Anti-Jesus" because the philosophies of the Talmud were taught by
Jesus.
You should limit your statement to: "Those who reject Jesus reject salvation."
I think that is what you are trying to say. Just say it without the
Anti-Senmitism or the opposition to the teachings of Jesus.
| Quote: |
Talmud is very useful to understand many things about what the apostles
meant in their writings, but its philosophies on sin and justification
lead only to hell if one accepts them
|
Again, the philosophies on Sin and justification agree with what Jesus taught.
Some of the theorized techniques do not. |
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Knut Klaveness Heidelberg
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 11:37 am Post subject: Re: TORAH |
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On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:47:33 +0200, Knut Klaveness Heidelberg wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 20 Aug 03 15:02:11 GMT, Jack wrote:
I am a Jew AND a believer in Messiah. So, I have no adgenda against the idea
that Jesus is Messiah.
Does this make you a Christian? If not, what's the difference between a
Norwegian (not Jewish) believing in Christ and a Norwegian Jew believing in
Christ? Are they not both Christians?
Just asking.
|
Thaks for answers but despite the theological discussions I still can't
grasp the great difference between a non-Jew believing in Christ and a Jew
believing in Christ. As I see it if both believe that Christ is their
Savior they are both Christians. When someone (don't remember who) in this
thread writes that he/she is both a Jew and a believer in Messiah and
therefore can accept the faith that Jesus is Messiah, isn't this the same
faith as any Christian would agree on: Jesus is the Messiah, the Savior,
Son of God, etc.?
So what is the difference between a Jew believing in Christ as the Savior
and a non-Jew sharing the same faith? Surely they are not both Jews but are
they not both Christians? I don't see any difference. Same faith and this
faith is Christianity.
--
Yours, Knut
http://home.no/shalom
(updated June 8 2003) |
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Aaron
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
|
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On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 08:37:02 +0200, Knut Klaveness Heidelberg
<heidelberg@theology.zzn.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:47:33 +0200, Knut Klaveness Heidelberg wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 03 15:02:11 GMT, Jack wrote:
I am a Jew AND a believer in Messiah. So, I have no adgenda against the idea
that Jesus is Messiah.
Does this make you a Christian? If not, what's the difference between a
Norwegian (not Jewish) believing in Christ and a Norwegian Jew believing in
Christ? Are they not both Christians?
Just asking.
Thaks for answers but despite the theological discussions I still can't
grasp the great difference between a non-Jew believing in Christ and a Jew
believing in Christ. As I see it if both believe that Christ is their
Savior they are both Christians. When someone (don't remember who) in this
thread writes that he/she is both a Jew and a believer in Messiah and
therefore can accept the faith that Jesus is Messiah, isn't this the same
faith as any Christian would agree on: Jesus is the Messiah, the Savior,
Son of God, etc.?
|
Christians do not accept the Covenant; Jews do.
Christians believe in Jesus, but do not follow His teachings.
Messianic Jews follow Jesus' teachings.
It is not just cultural differences, there are major theological
differences.
| Quote: |
So what is the difference between a Jew believing in Christ as the Savior
and a non-Jew sharing the same faith? Surely they are not both Jews but are
they not both Christians? I don't see any difference. Same faith and this
faith is Christianity. |
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Robert A. Walker
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 1:40 am Post subject: Re: TORAH |
|
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Aaron <anon@home.net> wrote in message
snip
| Quote: |
It is not just cultural differences, there are major theological
differences.
|
Ah good. Another cultist condemning everyone who doesn't think just
like him to hell. |
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John W
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:30 am Post subject: Re: TORAH |
|
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On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 08:37:02 +0200, Knut Klaveness Heidelberg
<heidelberg@theology.zzn.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:47:33 +0200, Knut Klaveness Heidelberg wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 03 15:02:11 GMT, Jack wrote:
I am a Jew AND a believer in Messiah. So, I have no adgenda against the idea
that Jesus is Messiah.
Does this make you a Christian? If not, what's the difference between a
Norwegian (not Jewish) believing in Christ and a Norwegian Jew believing in
Christ? Are they not both Christians?
Just asking.
Thaks for answers but despite the theological discussions I still can't
grasp the great difference between a non-Jew believing in Christ and a Jew
believing in Christ.
|
Easy. A non-Jew believing in Christ was not a Jew before he became a
Christian. A Jew who believes in Christ has two choices. He can
continue to observe what laws he chooses and remain Jewish by custom,
or he can forfeit his Jewishness and become an assimilated Christian.
As I see it if both believe that Christ is their
| Quote: | Savior they are both Christians.
|
Exactly correct. The only difference becomes lifestyle.
When someone (don't remember who) in this
| Quote: | thread writes that he/she is both a Jew and a believer in Messiah and
therefore can accept the faith that Jesus is Messiah, isn't this the same
faith as any Christian would agree on: Jesus is the Messiah, the Savior,
Son of God, etc.?
|
Absolutely. And this is the person who has the choice to be a
Christian yet remain in the Old Testament traditions, or become a
"plain vanilla" believer.
One tip, if you remain Jewish, the Seder will take on new meaning for
you. When you reach the places in the New Testamental that describe
what the wine and bread are re-defined (or re-clarified) as after the
death of Christ, you will understand that God gave these traditions
and symbols to the Jews first.
You as a Jew will find new meaning in MANY things that are Christian.
Such as, the "Exodus" takes on new meaning for the Christian Jew.
| Quote: |
So what is the difference between a Jew believing in Christ as the Savior
and a non-Jew sharing the same faith? Surely they are not both Jews but are
they not both Christians? I don't see any difference. Same faith and this
faith is Christianity.
|
I trust I have answered satisfactorily.
Feel free to ask any more questions. Feel free to e-mail me with any
questions in a private environment.
John W
______________________________________________________________________
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John W
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:32 am Post subject: Re: TORAH |
|
|
On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 18:48:05 GMT, Aaron <anon@home.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 08:37:02 +0200, Knut Klaveness Heidelberg
heidelberg@theology.zzn.com> wrote:
On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:47:33 +0200, Knut Klaveness Heidelberg wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 03 15:02:11 GMT, Jack wrote:
I am a Jew AND a believer in Messiah. So, I have no adgenda against the idea
that Jesus is Messiah.
Does this make you a Christian? If not, what's the difference between a
Norwegian (not Jewish) believing in Christ and a Norwegian Jew believing in
Christ? Are they not both Christians?
Just asking.
Thaks for answers but despite the theological discussions I still can't
grasp the great difference between a non-Jew believing in Christ and a Jew
believing in Christ. As I see it if both believe that Christ is their
Savior they are both Christians. When someone (don't remember who) in this
thread writes that he/she is both a Jew and a believer in Messiah and
therefore can accept the faith that Jesus is Messiah, isn't this the same
faith as any Christian would agree on: Jesus is the Messiah, the Savior,
Son of God, etc.?
Christians do not accept the Covenant; Jews do.
Christians believe in Jesus, but do not follow His teachings.
|
Speak for yourself. One thing a most sincere believer learns is that
the teachings Jesus gave us are as impossible to follow as are the Old
Testament.
John W
| Quote: | Messianic Jews follow Jesus' teachings.
It is not just cultural differences, there are major theological
differences.
So what is the difference between a Jew believing in Christ as the Savior
and a non-Jew sharing the same faith? Surely they are not both Jews but are
they not both Christians? I don't see any difference. Same faith and this
faith is Christianity.
|
______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - FAST UNLIMITED DOWNLOAD - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><> |
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Michael Burt
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
|
|
In article <59ade241.0308190903.7cf3c11b@posting.google.com>,
BalaamsAss51@hotmail.com (BalaamsAss51) wrote:
| Quote: | vince garcia <vggarcia@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:<3F422ED0.2953@ix.netcom.com>...
no it doesn't; the word means "instruction". You shouldn't make up or
repeat such drivel because Jews will blast it apart in two seconds and
Christianity thus gets another black eye.
A very good article on Torah is at the New Advent web site.
www.newadvent.org/cathen/14779c.htm
Your point about drivel is quite on target. Too many ill-taught (that
is not to say ill-meaning) Christians do indeed bring "black eyes" to
the faith.
Pax. Col. 2:6-8
|
Hmmm, isn't that what the Pharisees said about Jesus and His teachings
from the Torah? |
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Michael Burt
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
|
|
In article <vks4cheiok46c9@corp.supernews.com>, Anon@noSpam.net (Jack)
wrote:
| Quote: | In article <3F4D20E1.1087@ix.netcom.com>, vggarcia@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Jack wrote:
In article <3F4B5B9C.3F08@ix.netcom.com>, vggarcia@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Aaron wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:42:37 GMT, vince garcia
vggarcia@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Jack wrote:
In article <1bib7ws58l6kc$.103suct7z1eeh.dlg@40tude.net>, Knut
Klaveness
Heidelberg <heidelberg@theology.zzn.com
mikeburt-0708030852460001@192.168.1.100
iiq4jv4aosnltj0blec4p57ss7ep8rf45q@4ax.com
vkOYa.2701$M6.182201@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net
mikeburt-1108030915570001@192.168.1.100
hgnfjvo9kkrs5ai1kc87as13qctvdn6lcf@4ax.com
mikeburt-1108031730530001@192.168.1.100
mikeburt-1808030858380001@192.168.1.100
3F422ED0.2953@ix.netcom.com
mikeburt-1908031743420001@192.168.1.100> <3F42ADC8.2D5D@ix.netcom.com
vk73bijatasf3e@corp.supernews.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 03 15:02:11 GMT, Jack wrote:
I am a Jew AND a believer in Messiah. So, I have no adgenda
against
the idea
that Jesus is Messiah.
Does this make you a Christian? If not, what's the difference
between
a
Norwegian (not Jewish) believing in Christ and a Norwegian Jew
believing
in
Christ? Are they not both Christians?
Christians do not accept the Covenant that God made with Abraham. I
was
part
of the Covenant 3200+ years before I was born and have no wish to
separate
myself from it.
This is not necesarily true. There are Observant messiancs who are
Christian and some of them would say that covenant was never brought
to
an end, but gentile christianity has misunderstood the writings of
Paul
on this issue and mistakenly taught that.
If a person is Messianic, he is NOT Christian. He may be Gentile, but
that is geneology, not religion.
The Gentiles definately misunderstood what Paul wrote and seemingly
gave Paul the authority to denounce what Jesus taught.
they slightly misunderstood it and took it to mean that everyone had to
repudiate torah. Not so--the Torah is still there for the jews to
observe as a means of retaining a cultural identity, but it is NOT a
perptual covenant that God requires all people to keep.
The Bible disagrees with you.
It says over and over in the Torah that Gentiles who come to know God are
under the same law as the Jews. Additionally, Jesus said that all of the
commandments were in full effect until "Heaven and Earth pass away."
Heaven
and Earth are still here.
Then said he, Lo, I come to do
thy will, O God. He taketh away
the first, that he may establish
the second.
The first covenant has been "taken away" in the sense that it is no
longer any sort of basis upon which God accepts a man. God accepts a man
now only by faith. Whether he trims the corner of his beard or eats
shellfish has no bearing on God's approval of him
Whoa there!
There is no promise in the Torah that says that you will be saved if you
keep
all 613 Commandments perfectly. Messiah is the only means of salvation.
Yes
Messiah commanded ALL of his followers to uphold all 613 Commandments, but
not
as a means of salvation.
including animal sacrifice? (follow-up question--what happens when the
jews rebuild their temple? Must Christians bring animal sacrifices
there?)
First: The Offering is the Command. The killing of the animals is a
technique
instructed to give the offering prior to the coming of Messiah, so you can
obey the Commandment.
According to Isaiah, when Messiah sits in the Temple (Not the anti-Christ
pretending to be Messiah) He will command blood offerings to be given. So, I
personally will obey Jesus when he returns.
Including denial into the messianic community of anyone who happened to
be descended from the moabites?
You are misreading the Commandment. Any man who comes from the nation of
Moab
(which has not existed for well over sixty generations) may enter into the
Jewish Community but cannot marry a Jewish woman. A man of his line may
marry
a Jewish woman in the Tenth generation. Of course since Moab has been gone
for well over 60 generations you are forced to obey this by default.
Inclucding circumcision, since the tanakah says one must be circumcised
of both heart AND flesh?
Of course, if one is part of the Covenant. Circumcision into a non-Messianic
form of Judaism was forbidden by Paul in Galatians and elsewhere.
According to the Bible, Deuteronomy 30, Circumcision of the Heart will occur
only after the Tribulation and the return after the tribulation. Of Course
the tribulation ends with the return of Messiah, so He personally takes care
of this prophecy.
Wheather you trim your beard or eat shellfish only has bearing is you know
that God forbid these evil actions, as you obviously do. Now "approval"
and
"Salvation" are two different words. Will you loose your salvation by
eating
pork? Only if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit in this action. according to
Numbers 15:30&31 and Hebrews 10:26-29, you blaspheme against the holy
Spirit
if you rebell against God by so doing. On way that a person may rebell
in so doing is to adopt Antinomianism, the theology og the Anti-Christ,
according to Second Thessalonians, chapter 2. This would be manefest by
the claim that the Commandment does not apply to you.
I'm afraid Paul does not agree with this:
Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become
uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him
not be circumcised.
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing,
but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he
was called.
Not--"let everyone make sure they keep Torah" But "Let him not become
circumcised" and "remain in the state he was called"
You are failing to note that according to Paul this is NOT the Word of God,
but his opinion. As such it cannot be universally applied. If you were in
one of the synagogues in Corinth c. 1960 years ago, it was an advisable
rabbinical ruling.
Of course paul is not talking ONLY about physical circumcision (else he
would not have told Jews not to become "uncircumsised", which means to
abandon torah), but rather refers, when speaking to we gentiles, to the
notion of becoming "circumcised" which means to keep mosaic law as a
lifestyle.
Now you are really reaching.
He is talking about hasty conversions to Judaism. Conversion to Judaism was
a
two step process then. the first step was to abondon idolatry and accept the
one true God and the seven Noachide Laws. At this point the Gentile
became a Ger Toshav (Foreign Convert). All the Gentiles who accepted Jesus
went at least this far. Then after study and preparation the Gentile could
commit himself to obeying all 613 Commandments, be immersed for the first
time, and become a Ger Tzedek (Righteous Convert). Since conversion is a
one-way door, it should not be taken lightly. You and all your descendants
become responcible for all of the Law. A lot of Gentiles got excited and
wanted to convert, as happens today, but they were not ready.
According to the NT, many Gentiles went all the way with their conversion to
Judaism.
That's not my view but I know
jewish christians who do think that.
If the are Jewish, they are not Christians.
They may be Israelite, but that is geneology, not religion.
The people you describe are Messianic Jews who follow what Jesus
taught.
So it is patently untrue to say
that for a Jew to become a Christian means he must abandon judaism.
you are misdefining "Christianity." Christianity is belief that Jesus
is the Messiah, but rejection of the Covenant. Messianic Judaism is
acceptance of Jesus as Messiah and acceptance of the Covenant.
But
he DOES have to reject the rabinnic understanding of how ones is
forgiven by God for his sins in favor of what Christianity teaches
Then you have not actually studied the talmud which says that we are
saved by Chesed (grace) alone?
Even if the Talmud says something like that somewhere inside it, I've
had orthodox jews flat out say "salvation has always been by works" in
my dialogue with them, and Judaism affirms that is the basis of
salvation. As my friend Moshe Shulman, a Chassidic scholar, has put it:
"if you do what's expected, Heaven is the reward". Moshe does not
believe in going to heaven because of God's grace alone, and certainly
not through faith. And I HAVE seen where the talmud teaches forgiveness
of sin comes by repentance, prayer and giving alms or doing good deeds.
Certainly the talmud would deny the sacrifice of Christ atones for sin,
correct?
Salvation by Grace is in both the Torah and the Talmud. Works are
stressed
by
many rabbis because somone who does no works has no faith. Also a person
of
weak faith can find his faith strengthened by obeying God even if he
begins
doing good works with some amount of confusion.
Some Talmidic sages theorized that charity could replace the temple
sacrifice.
They got the idea of Grace correct, but not the replacement for animal
offerings. Though even the Talmud says that when Messiah comes, our
offerings
will consist of prayers and praise.
Unfortunately people who believe the philospophy of the talmud spend
eternity in hell because the philosophical teachings of the talmud
cannot save you. Only Christ can, and the people who wrote the talmud
rejected both Christ and His atonement in favor of their own beliefs.
Your anti-Jesus claim is not correct.
I say "Anti-Jesus" because the philosophies of the Talmud were taught by
Jesus.
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NOt sure that I can agree with that. Some of the included documents of
Talmudic tradition were written in Babylon, and Jesus disagreed with
them in the Temple and they did not change when 'cannonized' later.
| Quote: |
You should limit your statement to: "Those who reject Jesus reject
salvation."
I think that is what you are trying to say. Just say it without the
Anti-Senmitism or the opposition to the teachings of Jesus.
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Anti-semitism is a pretty emotionally charged word. When Moses said
Deuteronomy 31:27* For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold,
while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against
the LORD; and how much more after my death?
Was he being anti-semetic?
| Quote: |
Talmud is very useful to understand many things about what the apostles
meant in their writings, but its philosophies on sin and justification
lead only to hell if one accepts them
Again, the philosophies on Sin and justification agree with what Jesus
taught.
Some of the theorized techniques do not.
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The Talmud does indeed contain some truth, no one disputes that.
However, certain passages of the Talmud are decidedly anti-Christ and
just plain hate speech regarding Christians. |
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Jack
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
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In article <8d9ab0cb.0309011240.663ed2cb@posting.google.com>, rwalker@nycc.edu (Robert A. Walker) wrote:
| Quote: | Aaron <anon@home.net> wrote in message
snip
It is not just cultural differences, there are major theological
differences.
Ah good. Another cultist condemning everyone who doesn't think just
like him to hell.
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Ah another liar snipping posts to make himself sound believable.
Aaron said that there were major theological differences between Messianic
Jews and Christians. He NEVER said that Christians of Messianic Jews are
going to Hell.
Did his post accidentally undermine the validity of your religion in your
eyes? If so, maybe instead of throwing false accusation about, you should
read the Bible cover to cover and then look at the theologies og the various
denominations and religions and see which you agree with after reading the
Bible without somone telling you which verses to read. Just a thought. |
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Jack
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
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In article <44p7lvcqrom64idl1c9tfk430fbuv2m1ie@4ax.com>, John W <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 18:48:05 GMT, Aaron <anon@home.net> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 08:37:02 +0200, Knut Klaveness Heidelberg
heidelberg@theology.zzn.com> wrote:
On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:47:33 +0200, Knut Klaveness Heidelberg wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 03 15:02:11 GMT, Jack wrote:
I am a Jew AND a believer in Messiah. So, I have no adgenda against the
idea
that Jesus is Messiah.
Does this make you a Christian? If not, what's the difference between a
Norwegian (not Jewish) believing in Christ and a Norwegian Jew believing in
Christ? Are they not both Christians?
Just asking.
Thaks for answers but despite the theological discussions I still can't
grasp the great difference between a non-Jew believing in Christ and a Jew
believing in Christ. As I see it if both believe that Christ is their
Savior they are both Christians. When someone (don't remember who) in this
thread writes that he/she is both a Jew and a believer in Messiah and
therefore can accept the faith that Jesus is Messiah, isn't this the same
faith as any Christian would agree on: Jesus is the Messiah, the Savior,
Son of God, etc.?
Christians do not accept the Covenant; Jews do.
Christians believe in Jesus, but do not follow His teachings.
Speak for yourself. One thing a most sincere believer learns is that
the teachings Jesus gave us are as impossible to follow as are the Old
Testament.
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John w, I don't know about Aaron, but I know that Jesus never taught that.
The Bible says that it is easy to obey all 613 Commandments of the Torah. Of
course the thousands and thousands of Rabbinical laws conflict with eachother
so it is immpossible to obey them.
Example: Beyt Hillel ruled the it was required to lend medical assistance even
on Sabbath, Beyt Shammai ruled that it forbidden to lend medical assistance on
Sabbath. The Torah forbid Malachot (drudgeries), but required certain Avodot
(services to God and Man). In Exodus, the Torah says that healing of a divine
ministry; therefore Healing is one of the Avodot. Jesus violated the Law of
Beyt Shammai, but obeyed the Law of God.
John W, you have amitted that you refuse the Commandment of Sabbath given in
Exodus 20:8-5. This may not effect your salvation, but it is a refusal of the
Covenant. Jesus said that ALL the Commandments were in effect until "Heaven
and Earth pass away;" that has not happened.
The choice to accept the Covenant and Jesus' teaching is yours. Just be
honest about your choices.
| Quote: |
John W
Messianic Jews follow Jesus' teachings.
It is not just cultural differences, there are major theological
differences.
So what is the difference between a Jew believing in Christ as the Savior
and a non-Jew sharing the same faith? Surely they are not both Jews but are
they not both Christians? I don't see any difference. Same faith and this
faith is Christianity.
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Jack
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
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In article <bpo7lvg8jqtmtldgv7nnistdllbe6jnh33@4ax.com>, John W <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 08:37:02 +0200, Knut Klaveness Heidelberg
heidelberg@theology.zzn.com> wrote:
On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:47:33 +0200, Knut Klaveness Heidelberg wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 03 15:02:11 GMT, Jack wrote:
I am a Jew AND a believer in Messiah. So, I have no adgenda against the
idea
that Jesus is Messiah.
Does this make you a Christian? If not, what's the difference between a
Norwegian (not Jewish) believing in Christ and a Norwegian Jew believing in
Christ? Are they not both Christians?
Just asking.
Thaks for answers but despite the theological discussions I still can't
grasp the great difference between a non-Jew believing in Christ and a Jew
believing in Christ.
Easy. A non-Jew believing in Christ was not a Jew before he became a
Christian. A Jew who believes in Christ has two choices. He can
continue to observe what laws he chooses and remain Jewish by custom,
or he can forfeit his Jewishness and become an assimilated Christian.
|
Unfortunately, a Jew who becomes an assimilated Christian commits Blasphemy
against the Holy Spirit and is damned (Hebrews 10:26-29, Numbers 15:30&31).
| Quote: |
As I see it if both believe that Christ is their
Savior they are both Christians.
Exactly correct. The only difference becomes lifestyle.
|
John W, A Jew cannot accept most "Christian" theologies without blaspheming
against the Holy Spirit, therefore if he is to be saved, he can never become a
Christian.
| Quote: |
When someone (don't remember who) in this
thread writes that he/she is both a Jew and a believer in Messiah and
therefore can accept the faith that Jesus is Messiah, isn't this the same
faith as any Christian would agree on: Jesus is the Messiah, the Savior,
Son of God, etc.?
Absolutely. And this is the person who has the choice to be a
Christian yet remain in the Old Testament traditions, or become a
"plain vanilla" believer.
|
The Christian theology that one can dispence with the 613 Commandments is not
cultural; it is doctrinal. This is a difference between Christianity and
Judaism.
| Quote: |
One tip, if you remain Jewish, the Seder will take on new meaning for
you. When you reach the places in the New Testamental that describe
what the wine and bread are re-defined (or re-clarified) as after the
death of Christ, you will understand that God gave these traditions
and symbols to the Jews first.
You as a Jew will find new meaning in MANY things that are Christian.
Such as, the "Exodus" takes on new meaning for the Christian Jew.
|
You must also reject the majority of Christian (Catholic) things: Sunday
worship, Christmas, Easter, Communion/Mass, Antinomianism, Messiah worship,
use of the cross of Tammuz as a holy symbol, use of the vagina/fish of the
early "mother-goddess" cults as a holy symbol et cetera.
| Quote: |
So what is the difference between a Jew believing in Christ as the Savior
and a non-Jew sharing the same faith? Surely they are not both Jews but are
they not both Christians? I don't see any difference. Same faith and this
faith is Christianity.
I trust I have answered satisfactorily.
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As a Gentile who does not understand what it is to be Jewish, you have made a
good effort, but you have made several errors, and said things that are deeply
offensive to Jews who believe in Jesus, and said things which are
anti-Semitic. I know that you did not mean to be anti-Semitic.
| Quote: |
Feel free to ask any more questions. Feel free to e-mail me with any
questions in a private environment.
John W
______________________________________________________________________
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Knut Klaveness Heidelberg
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: TORAH |
|
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On 2 Sep 2003 00:30:53 GMT, John W wrote:
| Quote: | Thaks for answers but despite the theological discussions I still can't
grasp the great difference between a non-Jew believing in Christ and a Jew
believing in Christ.
Easy. A non-Jew believing in Christ was not a Jew before he became a
Christian.
|
OK
| Quote: | A Jew who believes in Christ has two choices. He can
continue to observe what laws he chooses and remain Jewish by custom,
or he can forfeit his Jewishness and become an assimilated Christian.
|
The second alternative I do not understand. Why is it that he forfeit his
Jewishness by becoming a Christian. Is Jewishness only a question of
religion?
| Quote: |
As I see it if both believe that Christ is their
Savior they are both Christians.
Exactly correct. The only difference becomes lifestyle.
|
OK. They are both Christians but different lifestyle - as everywhere in
Christianity.
| Quote: |
When someone (don't remember who) in this
thread writes that he/she is both a Jew and a believer in Messiah and
therefore can accept the faith that Jesus is Messiah, isn't this the same
faith as any Christian would agree on: Jesus is the Messiah, the Savior,
Son of God, etc.?
Absolutely. And this is the person who has the choice to be a
Christian yet remain in the Old Testament traditions, or become a
"plain vanilla" believer.
One tip, if you remain Jewish, the Seder will take on new meaning for
you. When you reach the places in the New Testamental that describe
what the wine and bread are re-defined (or re-clarified) as after the
death of Christ, you will understand that God gave these traditions
and symbols to the Jews first.
You as a Jew will find new meaning in MANY things that are Christian.
Such as, the "Exodus" takes on new meaning for the Christian Jew.
|
Agree. And not to forget: A Christian exploring the Jewish traditions
described in NT will deepen his/hers understanding of the Gospel.
| Quote: |
So what is the difference between a Jew believing in Christ as the Savior
and a non-Jew sharing the same faith? Surely they are not both Jews but are
they not both Christians? I don't see any difference. Same faith and this
faith is Christianity.
I trust I have answered satisfactorily.
Feel free to ask any more questions. Feel free to e-mail me with any
questions in a private environment.
|
Thanks for your answers. From what you say I do believe it is possible to
conclude that messianic Jews and Christians share a common faith.
--
Yours, Knut
http://home.no/shalom
(updated June 8 2003) |
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John W
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:47 am Post subject: Re: addendum |
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On Fri, 05 Sep 03 15:43:24 GMT, Anon@noSpam.net (Jack) wrote:
| Quote: | In article <3F5768AB.4D36@ix.netcom.com>, vggarcia@ix.netcom.com wrote:
After my last post i found one you wrote to john w in which you
ironically confirm some of the points i make in my last post. Among the
things you said was:
"Unfortunately, a Jew who becomes an assimilated Christian commits
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and is damned"
According to Hebrews 10:26-29, this is absolutely true!
So, just as I said in my post, the ultimate fruit of the heresy of
claiming God wants everyone to keep the torah is a denial that those who
do are really saved
The Bible says that all people who believe in God, Jew and Gentile must uphold
all of the Torah (Numbers 15:30-31).
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Not ALL of it. And that was for Old Testament / Old Covenant only. One
GLARING example of the law not being in force today. Sabbath was NEVER
given to anyone but the Jews. Exodus 31.
John W
| Quote: |
You also said:
"A Jew cannot accept most "Christian" theologies without blaspheming
against the Holy Spirit, therefore if he is to be saved, he can never
become a Christian."
Yep!
Most Christian theologies are in opposition to the Bible.
and
"You must also reject the majority of Christian (Catholic) things:
Sunday
worship, Christmas, Easter, Communion/Mass, Antinomianism, Messiah
worship, use of the cross of Tammuz as a holy symbol..."
Now you apparently deny the deity of Christ, and insist that anyone who
is to be saved must reject going to church on sunday and reject the
cross as a symbol of Christ! Do you also reject the atonement of
Christ's shed blood for sin based on the fact the torah (supposedly)
forbids human sacrifice?
The cross, a mere idol and not Jesus, was the symbol of the babylonian
sun-gods Tammuz and Mithra. You claim that rejecting this pagan symbol is
rejection of God is idolatrous. You are in essence claimint that two sticks
of wood are God. Think about it!
You make my point perfectly--mandating torah observance will lead you to
heresy and hell. Period.
I have only saud what Jesus said, call HIM a heretic if you lie, but realize
that you are spreading the theology that Paul identified with the Anti-Christ.
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John W
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: addendum |
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On Fri, 05 Sep 03 15:43:24 GMT, Anon@noSpam.net (Jack) wrote:
| Quote: | In article <3F5768AB.4D36@ix.netcom.com>, vggarcia@ix.netcom.com wrote:
After my last post i found one you wrote to john w in which you
ironically confirm some of the points i make in my last post. Among the
things you said was:
"Unfortunately, a Jew who becomes an assimilated Christian commits
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and is damned"
According to Hebrews 10:26-29, this is absolutely true!
So, just as I said in my post, the ultimate fruit of the heresy of
claiming God wants everyone to keep the torah is a denial that those who
do are really saved
The Bible says that all people who believe in God, Jew and Gentile must uphold
all of the Torah (Numbers 15:30-31).
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Your understanding. And it's flawed. You ignore half the New
Testament, particularly the passages wherein Jesus Himself, broke the
Torah. Repeatedly.
| Quote: |
You also said:
"A Jew cannot accept most "Christian" theologies without blaspheming
against the Holy Spirit, therefore if he is to be saved, he can never
become a Christian."
Yep!
Most Christian theologies are in opposition to the Bible.
|
Again, in your nonsensical opinion. We may oppose your rudimentary
view.
| Quote: |
and
"You must also reject the majority of Christian (Catholic) things:
Sunday
worship, Christmas, Easter, Communion/Mass, Antinomianism, Messiah
worship, use of the cross of Tammuz as a holy symbol..."
|
Christian and Catholic are NOT synonymous.
| Quote: |
Now you apparently deny the deity of Christ, and insist that anyone who
is to be saved must reject going to church on sunday and reject the
cross as a symbol of Christ! Do you also reject the atonement of
Christ's shed blood for sin based on the fact the torah (supposedly)
forbids human sacrifice?
The cross, a mere idol and not Jesus, was the symbol of the babylonian
sun-gods Tammuz and Mithra. You claim that rejecting this pagan symbol is
rejection of God is idolatrous. You are in essence claimint that two sticks
of wood are God. Think about it!
|
You are being taught by the Evil One. The Bible says Jesus was
executed on a Cross. No other sources for that information are
relevant. The Bible supersedes all others.
John W
| Quote: |
You make my point perfectly--mandating torah observance will lead you to
heresy and hell. Period.
I have only saud what Jesus said, call HIM a heretic if you lie, but realize
that you are spreading the theology that Paul identified with the Anti-Christ.
|
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Aaron
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:55 am Post subject: Re: mandatory torah= bondage |
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On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:27:18 GMT, vince garcia
<vggarcia@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Jack wrote:
Paul makes it 100% clear to everyone except some heretical messianics of
the last few decades that Gentile believers should NOT embrace a system
of jewish commandments and customs that was meant for the Jews in one
epoch of time, under one covenant that has been superceded by a better
covenant.
Paul NEVER said that!
he says it throughout his epistles, and only someone under demonic
deception, who is incapable of discerning truth from error, would deny
it
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Vince, Paul never denounced a Gentile's responcibility to uphold all
613 Commandments of the Torah. He did denounce imposing God's Word
upon anyone. He also denounced many elements of the Chumrot
(rabbinical Laws) saying that they were not binding on any believer in
Messiah. This is throughout Galatians and other letters that he
wrote.
The Hebrew word "Chumrot" translates to the Greek word "nomos" as does
"Mishpat (law)." So, you need to know your Bible to understand which
"nomos" Paul is refering to in which verse. |
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