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guardian Snow
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 Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: Proof Paul was not saved, Acts 20:26 |
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On Aug 15, 5:54 am, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Aug 11, 2:39 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
Philippians 2:12 (New International Version)
Shining as Stars
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyedânot only in my
presence, but now much more in my absenceâcontinue to work out your salvation
with fear and trembling,
The Messiah shows that what Paul said is false and evil and taught
that believers don't need to fear:
Mat 10:31 "Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many
sparrows.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I
confess also before my Father which is in heaven."
And the Messiah's true apostles differed with Paul on this subject as
well:
1Jn 4:17 "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness
in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jn 4:18 There is NO FEAR in love; but perfect love casteth out fear:
because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in
love."
|
Personally, I like Duke as a man but I have to confess that I've
posted to him for so long and he logically is immovable to the truth
and so, I don't see the point in posting to him.
2Pe 3:14 So then, beloved ones, looking forward to this, do your
utmost to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
2Pe 3:15 and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also
our beloved brother Shaâul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given
to him, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning
these matters, in which some are hard to understand, which those who
are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do
also the other Scriptures. 17 You, then, beloved ones, being
forewarned, watch, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness,
being led away with the delusion of the lawless, 18 but grow in the
favour and knowledge of our Master and Saviour ×××׊ע Messiah. To Him
be the esteem both now and to a day that abides. AmÄn.
I understand the expression "wear out the saints".
Dan 7:25 and it speaks words against the Most High, and it wears out
the set-apart ones of the Most High, and it intends to change
appointed times1 and law2, and they are given into its hand for a time
and times and half a time. Footnotes: 1This is another word for
festivals. 2Changing the law amounts to lawlessness. Read in 2 Thess.
2:3-12 about âthe lawless oneâ and the âlawlessnessâ which would take
over (indeed, it has already taken over!) in the set-apart place, and
also about Messiahâs judgment upon the lawless âprophetsâ in Mt. 7:23,
and the lawless âbelieversâ in Mt. 13:41!
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.â˘Â´ ¸.â˘*´¨) ¸.â˘*¨)
(¸.â˘Â´ (¸.⢠(Snow(.¸.â˘*´¨)
(Mar 16:2) (Mar 16:9) (Luk 18:12) (Luk 24:1)
(Joh 20:1) (Joh 20:19) (Act 20:7) (1Co 16:2) (Heb 4:9)
Each of these verses that have the word Sabbath removed.
Beliefs have the power to create and the power to destroy. Human
beings have the awesome ability to take any experience of their lives
and create a meaning that disempowers them or one that can literally
save their lives.
Tony Robbins
Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
version which you can download for free at
http://www.isr-messianic.org/
Please come post your comments at
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
A moderated forum.
http://www.ucg.org/index.htm
A Worldwide Sabbath practicing Church. |
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guardian Snow
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:52 am Post subject: Re: Proof Paul was not saved, Acts 20:26 |
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On Aug 15, 8:44 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:24:22 -0700 (PDT), Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com
wrote:
On Aug 10, 5:16 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 08:35:22 -0700 (PDT), Jonathan Schattke <wiz...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Aug 10, 9:00 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 01:10:37 -0700 (PDT), Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com
wrote:
On Aug 9, 9:05 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
Romans 7:18 (New International Version)
18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I
have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
Footnotes:
Romans 7:18 Or my flesh
Is that new version supposed to make Paul's inability to stop sinning
okay? Apparently, and if Paul's 'sin nature' does that to him, I
suppose you have that same problem, but its okay because Paul had the
same affliction.
You too have that same sin nature. WE must struggle every day to say "no" to
sin and turn to God. A good bible prefaces that with "The Conflict in Man".
Well, now... hrm.
I can honestly say that I do not normally sin,
Hrm.....I can honestly say you're full of bulls__t. You sin day in and day out,
in your thoughts and in your words, in what you do and what you don't do.
it is not a struggle
not to sin, and that I do not seem to have the same trouble Paul says
he had and you say you have.
Try googling "if we say we have no sin".
That is speaking about the original sin we've all committed in the
ancient past; leaving God and Heaven to follow 'the serpent' into sin
as the story of Adam/Eve in the garden of Eden is a metaphor for us
all.
Yes, and the comment was our ability to avoid sin. Something that only Christ
could do. Heb 4:15.
Once someone has been saved, they are expected to sin no more. John
8:11 "She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I
condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
But what happens when you do so anyway?
Hebrews 10:26-27 (New International Version)
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of
the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of
judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
So much for being "already" saved. Salvation is not a one-time deal. It goes
on day in and day out until the moment we die.
|
Mar 6:12 And they went out and proclaimed that men should repent.
Mat 6:12 âAnd forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 18:21 Then KÄpha came to Him and said, âMaster, how often shall my
brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?â
Mat 18:22 ×××׊ע said to him, âI do not say to you, up to seven times,
but up to seventy times seven.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.â˘Â´ ¸.â˘*´¨) ¸.â˘*¨)
(¸.â˘Â´ (¸.⢠(Snow(.¸.â˘*´¨)
(Mar 16:2) (Mar 16:9) (Luk 18:12) (Luk 24:1)
(Joh 20:1) (Joh 20:19) (Act 20:7) (1Co 16:2) (Heb 4:9)
Each of these verses that have the word Sabbath removed.
Beliefs have the power to create and the power to destroy. Human
beings have the awesome ability to take any experience of their lives
and create a meaning that disempowers them or one that can literally
save their lives.
Tony Robbins
Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
version which you can download for free at
http://www.isr-messianic.org/
Please come post your comments at
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
A moderated forum.
http://www.ucg.org/index.htm
A Worldwide Sabbath practicing Church. |
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duke
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: Re: Proof Paul was not saved, Acts 20:26 |
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On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:33:24 -0700 (PDT), Linda Lee <lindagirl444@juno.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | What fruit do you bear talking like a pagan?
Mat 5:48 Therefore, be perfect, as your Father in the heavens is
perfect.
Only Christ never sinned. Heb 4:15. Purgatory, or hell, await us all.
?? That is an untrue RCC doctrine that negates all of the teachings of
the Messiah of repentance and forgiveness of sins for which we've
repented.
|
Either way, when we die, Jesus judges us for every wrong word we said while in
the flesh. If we are sorry for it and repented of doing it again, we should go
to purgatory to get the stain of sinning removed from our soul. If we are not
sorry and not repented, it's off to satan land.
Rev 21:27: "
nothing unclean will enter heaven
"
Mat 5:8: "Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God"
Heb 12:14: "strive
for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord".
Mat 5:48: "
be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".
| Quote: | Philippians 2:12 (New International Version)
Shining as Stars
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyednot only in my
presence, but now much more in my absencecontinue to work out your salvation
with fear and trembling,
Anyone following Paul is likely to be afraid.
|
And Paul received his knowledge from Christ.
1 Corinthians 11:23-24 (New International Version)
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on
the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke
it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
| Quote: | 1 John 1:10 (New International Version)
10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has
no place in our lives.
|
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
***** |
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duke
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: Re: Proof Paul was not saved, Acts 20:26 |
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On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:54:13 -0700 (PDT), Linda Lee <lindagirl444@juno.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Aug 11, 2:39 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
Philippians 2:12 (New International Version)
Shining as Stars
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyednot only in my
presence, but now much more in my absencecontinue to work out your salvation
with fear and trembling,
The Messiah shows that what Paul said is false and evil and taught
that believers don't need to fear:
Mat 10:31 "Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many
sparrows.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I
confess also before my Father which is in heaven."
|
1 Corinthians 11:23-24 (New International Version)
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on
the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke
it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
***** |
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duke
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:40 am Post subject: Re: Proof Paul was not saved, Acts 20:26 |
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On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:46:37 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow <snowpheonix@eck.net.au>
wrote:
| Quote: | Personally, I like Duke as a man but I have to confess that I've
posted to him for so long and he logically is immovable to the truth
and so, I don't see the point in posting to him.
|
Oh, snow. What it means is that you have never given Paul credit for learning
from the Lord. And you won't listen to reason. The Christian Church which goes
back to Jesus and the early Church Fathers and who were all a part of the
Pauline era have all declared Paul's letters to be inspired scripture. The RCC
has declared the Pauline Jubilee year this year.
1 Corinthians 11:23-24 (New International Version)
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on
the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke
it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
You can't hardly accuse me of being closed minded when you defy so many of the
learned works of others re Paul.
I hope you stay.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
***** |
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duke
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:44 am Post subject: Re: Proof Paul was not saved, Acts 20:26 |
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On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:24:22 -0700 (PDT), Linda Lee <lindagirl444@juno.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Aug 10, 5:16 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 08:35:22 -0700 (PDT), Jonathan Schattke <wiz...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Aug 10, 9:00 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 01:10:37 -0700 (PDT), Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com
wrote:
On Aug 9, 9:05 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
Romans 7:18 (New International Version)
18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I
have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
Footnotes:
Romans 7:18 Or my flesh
Is that new version supposed to make Paul's inability to stop sinning
okay? Apparently, and if Paul's 'sin nature' does that to him, I
suppose you have that same problem, but its okay because Paul had the
same affliction.
You too have that same sin nature. WE must struggle every day to say "no" to
sin and turn to God. A good bible prefaces that with "The Conflict in Man".
Well, now... hrm.
I can honestly say that I do not normally sin,
Hrm.....I can honestly say you're full of bulls__t. You sin day in and day out,
in your thoughts and in your words, in what you do and what you don't do.
it is not a struggle
not to sin, and that I do not seem to have the same trouble Paul says
he had and you say you have.
Try googling "if we say we have no sin".
That is speaking about the original sin we've all committed in the
ancient past; leaving God and Heaven to follow 'the serpent' into sin
as the story of Adam/Eve in the garden of Eden is a metaphor for us
all.
|
Yes, and the comment was our ability to avoid sin. Something that only Christ
could do. Heb 4:15.
| Quote: | Once someone has been saved, they are expected to sin no more. John
8:11 "She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I
condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
|
But what happens when you do so anyway?
Hebrews 10:26-27 (New International Version)
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of
the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of
judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
So much for being "already" saved. Salvation is not a one-time deal. It goes
on day in and day out until the moment we die.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
***** |
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duke
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: Re: Proof Paul was not saved, Acts 20:26 |
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On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:47:02 -0700 (PDT), Linda Lee <lindagirl444@juno.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Aug 13, 4:57 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:00:30 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au
wrote:
On Aug 14, 1:13 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:49:44 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au
wrote:
On Aug 13, 6:57 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
Good grief, snow. If you can call one verse a lie, then you must call 100% of
all verses in scripture lies.
Ultimately I have to believe that Matthew was the inspired one that
was made a apostle.
Nobody "makes" one an apostle.
Psa 109:8 Let his days be few, Let another take his office.
Peter was given the authority by the Messiah.
They prayed and casted lots. Matthew won.
My reference was to an Apostle being one who personally knew Jesus, or was
taught by him. That's kinda how Paul got in.
But thats my point, Paul didn't know the Messiah at all. John knew
this and spoke about it in his letters:
"or received his revelation to conversion directly from Christ". But you won't
get an argument from me. Exactly how Paul, and why Paul, qualifies to be named
Apostle is not a major concern for me. Others long ago did that, and they have
their reasons.
Yes, they had their reasons", but their reasons weren't necessarily
good, and you seem to assume they must have been.
|
An Apostle is a disciple that personally knew Jesus.
1 Corinthians 11:23-24 (New International Version)
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on
the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke
it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
| Quote: | If the church had not been so violent towards believers and unbelievers,
|
The Church never was. The Church is the Body of Christ. Men in the Church is
the violent nature.
| Quote: | First off we see that if you love the Father, you keep his commands
but then he speaks about the fact that Paul spoke of a strictly
internal revelation and not the Messiah that came in the flesh.
Not true. Heb 4:15 says that only Christ never sinned. So that says that many
people that "claim" to love God bark louder than they bite.
2Co 11:8 I robbed other churches,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the
flesh
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered
unto Satan
Why don't you use a good "new" English language bible. It would be a lot easier
to understand.
It's filled with words rooted in Paganism.
The KJV is a good OT bible, but weak and error filled in NT. But mostly, it's
garbage trying to figure out what it says.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
***** |
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duke
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:51 am Post subject: Re: Proof Paul was not saved, Acts 20:26 |
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On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:49:13 -0700 (PDT), Linda Lee <lindagirl444@juno.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Aug 12, 4:57 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 20:27:36 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au
wrote:
On Aug 12, 9:55 am, Jonathan Schattke <wiz...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Aug 11, 1:45 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
And Paul had the scales of evil removed from his eyes, was baptized in the
Christian faith, and became an Apostle.
And yet, in the same letter that he calls himself an Apostle, he
openly admits to stealing. Odd way to keep the Law.
Paul is the darnel that grows among the wheat. Gather the wheat:)
If he couldn't change his way, you can't.
False Argument.
What one person can or cannot do has no bearing on what the next
person can or cannot do.
Of course we can't say that we have never or will never sin but then
that is why we needed a Messiah to redeem us.
The messiah didn't redeem you. The Messiah showed you the way to repent for
sin, for you to redeem yourself for sins committed thru confession and
absolution in a confessional, and to restore salvation to souls.
The typical argument is that the word of Paul is inspired by Elohim.
Paul was as we all know an admitted murderer of Stephen most likely
others in the new church.
Until he converted to Christianity and became baptized.
Act 9:1 But Shaul, still breathing threats and murder against the
taught ones of the Master, having come to the high priest,
Act 9:2 asked from him letters to the congregations of Damascus, so
that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, to
bring them bound to Yerushalayim.
The account in Acts is not reliable but we have no reason to believe
that Luke lied but rather that he wasn't actually a witness to the
events he wrote of.
Good grief, snow. If you can call one verse a lie, then you must call 100% of
all verses in scripture lies.
He just said, "we have no reason to believe that Luke lied", so why do
you read that as he called the verse a lie and accuse him of calling
all scriptures lies?
|
Well, maybe I misread the statement. Now, the Gospel of Luke is dated AD80-85.
So what Luke wrote is a combination of his own past experiences, the beliefs of
the new Christians prior to that date, and the religious practices of same.
My point is that you can't call any accepted verse as inspired and not another.
If one fails then all are suspect.
| Quote: | Ultimately I have to believe that Matthew was the inspired one that
was made a apostle.
|
Nobody "makes" one an apostle. An apostle is a disciple (student) that
personally knew Jesus.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
***** |
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duke
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: Re: Proof Paul was not saved, Acts 20:26 |
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On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:18:48 -0700 (PDT), Linda Lee <lindagirl444@juno.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Aug 10, 10:00 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 01:10:37 -0700 (PDT), Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com
wrote:
On Aug 9, 9:05 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 04:24:57 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au
wrote:
We find actual proof that in fact Paul was not saved and that the
translators added words into the text that were not written.
The Holy Spirit declared Paul a Saint. That ends that statement.
Not quite; show it to me in the Scriptures because I don't see it.
Where does the NT declare Paul a "saint"?
Act 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure
from the blood of all.
Acts 20:27 (New International Version)
27For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I wish to do, I do not do; but the evil I
do not wish to do, this I practise.
Romans 7:18 (New International Version)
18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I
have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
Footnotes:
Romans 7:18 Or my flesh
Is that new version supposed to make Paul's inability to stop sinning
okay? Apparently, and if Paul's 'sin nature' does that to him, I
suppose you have that same problem, but its okay because Paul had the
same affliction.
You too have that same sin nature. WE must struggle every day to say "no" to
sin and turn to God. A good bible prefaces that with "The Conflict in Man".
Paul is a child of the Devil as his inability to refrain from sin
reveals: 1 John 3:10 "In this the children of God are manifest, and
the **** children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is
not of God, **** neither he that loveth not his brother."
Paul was not a child of the devil any more than you and I are. Paul went forth
to the expanding Church to teach after his conversion and baptism. The words in
a good bible say:
1 John 3:10 (New International Version)
10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the
devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is
anyone who does not love his brother.
What possible difference do you think substituting "does not do what
is right" for "doeth not righteousness" makes? None. Following his
conversion Paul said he could not do the good that he would do and
instead did the evil he did not want to do. I John 3:10 says that
reveals Paul as a child of the Devil, not a child of God.
Rom 7:19 Paul says, "For the good that I wish to do, I do not do; but
the evil I do not wish to do, this I practise."
You can have your evil Pharisee.
Hebrews 4:15 (New International Version)
15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our
weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we
areyet was without sin.
LOL. Are you claiming that refers to PAUL?
No, that is the inspired word of God revealed to Paul regarding the Son of God.
I'm glad you're at least not claiming Paul is our high priest.
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All scripture is inspired by God and is valid for teaching.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
***** |
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Jonathan Schattke
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Proof Paul was not saved, Acts 20:26 |
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On Aug 14, 5:52 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 04:24:57 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au
wrote:
You can have your evil Pharisee.
All scripture is inspired by God and is valid for teaching.
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The contention is that Pauls writings should not be considered
Scripture. It is certain that it was not scripture to the other
Apostles; they taught from what is not the Old Testament and a number
of works not now Canon.
and you quote:
2Ti 3:16 Every Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for
teaching, for convincing, for correction of error, and for instruction
in right doing;
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may himself be complete and may be
perfectly equipped for every good work.
to try to prove the writer's own works are useful?
How does that work - a man writing a letter saying scripture is
useful, and you use that line in the letter to try to validate the
usefulness of the letter writer's writing... that's fishy business if
ever I've seen such. |
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duke
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Proof Paul was not saved, Acts 20:26 |
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On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:52:17 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow <snowpheonix@eck.net.au>
wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, and the comment was our ability to avoid sin. Something that only Christ
could do. Heb 4:15.
Once someone has been saved, they are expected to sin no more. John
8:11 "She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I
condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
But what happens when you do so anyway?
Hebrews 10:26-27 (New International Version)
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of
the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of
judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
So much for being "already" saved. Salvation is not a one-time deal. It goes
on day in and day out until the moment we die.
Mar 6:12 And they went out and proclaimed that men should repent.
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Mark 6:10-13 (New International Version)
10Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11And if any
place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when
you leave, as a testimony against them."
12They went out and preached that people should repent. 13They drove out many
demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.
Yep, "should repent". And the oil is the sacrament of Healing of the Sick.
| Quote: | Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
|
Yep, we don't tell God what to do, but if we desire forgiveness, we must give
it. Nothing there about "if you do, then you do".
| Quote: | Mat 18:21 Then K?pha came to Him and said, Master, how often shall my
brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?
Mat 18:22 ????? said to him, I do not say to you, up to seven times,
but up to seventy times seven.
|
Yep, lots of repentance going on - definitely not a one time deal.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
***** |
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Linda Lee
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Proof Paul was not saved, Acts 20:26 |
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On Aug 15, 10:16 am, Jonathan Schattke <wiz...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Aug 14, 5:52 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 04:24:57 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au
wrote:
You can have your evil Pharisee.
All scripture is inspired by God and is valid for teaching.
The contention is that Pauls writings should not be considered
Scripture. It is certain that it was not scripture to the other
Apostles; they taught from what is not the Old Testament and a number
of works not now Canon.
and you quote:
2Ti 3:16 Every Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for
teaching, for convincing, for correction of error, and for instruction
in right doing;
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may himself be complete and may be
perfectly equipped for every good work.
to try to prove the writer's own works are useful?
How does that work - a man writing a letter saying scripture is
useful, and you use that line in the letter to try to validate the
usefulness of the letter writer's writing... that's fishy business if
ever I've seen such.
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That's all he has. |
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Linda Lee
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Proof Paul was not saved, Acts 20:26 |
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On Aug 14, 6:35 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:33:24 -0700 (PDT), Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com
wrote:
What fruit do you bear talking like a pagan?
Mat 5:48 Therefore, be perfect, as your Father in the heavens is
perfect.
Only Christ never sinned. Heb 4:15. Purgatory, or hell, await us all.
?? That is an untrue RCC doctrine that negates all of the teachings of
the Messiah of repentance and forgiveness of sins for which we've
repented.
Either way, when we die, Jesus judges us for every wrong word we said while in
the flesh. If we are sorry for it and repented of doing it again, we should go
to purgatory to get the stain of sinning removed from our soul. If we are not
sorry and not repented, it's off to satan land.
|
I realize that paying for sin in purgatory is a Catholic doctrine, but
it is the opposite of having our sins forgiven via repentance. How
does the church reconcile Christ's promise here to an admittedly
guilty man?
Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him,
saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou
fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our
deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest
into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day
shalt thou be with me in paradise.
| Quote: |
Rev 21:27: "
nothing unclean will enter heaven
"
Mat 5:8: "Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God"
Heb 12:14: "strive
for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord".
Mat 5:48: "
be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".
Philippians 2:12 (New International Version)
Shining as Stars
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyednot only in my
presence, but now much more in my absencecontinue to work out your salvation
with fear and trembling,
Anyone following Paul is likely to be afraid.
And Paul received his knowledge from Christ.
|
LOL. Paul says the opposite of Christ. I see you've deleted and
ignored Christ's words on fear. Let me restore them for you:
The Messiah shows that what Paul said is false and evil and taught
that believers don't need to fear:
Mat 10:31 "Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many
sparrows.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I
confess also before my Father which is in heaven."
And the Messiah's true apostles differed with Paul on this subject as
well:
1Jn 4:17 "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness
in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jn 4:18 There is NO FEAR in love; but perfect love casteth out
fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect
in love."
You shouldn't teach fear, Duke.
| Quote: | duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
|
Your sign-off is odd since Christ gave us a perform form of prayer
here:
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in
heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in
heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.
Amen. |
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duke
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: Proof Paul was not saved, Acts 20:26 |
|
|
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:28:47 -0700 (PDT), Linda Lee <lindagirl444@juno.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | ?? That is an untrue RCC doctrine that negates all of the teachings of
the Messiah of repentance and forgiveness of sins for which we've
repented.
Either way, when we die, Jesus judges us for every wrong word we said while in
the flesh. If we are sorry for it and repented of doing it again, we should go
to purgatory to get the stain of sinning removed from our soul. If we are not
sorry and not repented, it's off to satan land.
I realize that paying for sin in purgatory is a Catholic doctrine, but
it is the opposite of having our sins forgiven via repentance. How
does the church reconcile Christ's promise here to an admittedly
guilty man?
|
If you die in mortal sin, you have destroyed your relationship with God. Heb
10:26-27 advises that only the fires of hell await him.
Hebrews 10:26-27 (New International Version)
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of
the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of
judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
So it's not a Catholic doctrine, it's the word of God
1 John 5:16 (New International Version)
16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he
should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead
to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should
pray about that.
| Quote: | Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him,
saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou
fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our
deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest
into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day
shalt thou be with me in paradise.
|
Death bed confession of love of Jesus.
| Quote: | Rev 21:27: "
nothing unclean will enter heaven
"
Mat 5:8: "Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God"
Heb 12:14: "strive
for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord".
Mat 5:48: "
be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".
Philippians 2:12 (New International Version)
Shining as Stars
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyednot only in my
presence, but now much more in my absencecontinue to work out your salvation
with fear and trembling,
Anyone following Paul is likely to be afraid.
And Paul received his knowledge from Christ.
LOL. Paul says the opposite of Christ. I see you've deleted and
ignored Christ's words on fear. Let me restore them for you:
The Messiah shows that what Paul said is false and evil and taught
that believers don't need to fear:
Mat 10:31 "Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many
sparrows.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I
confess also before my Father which is in heaven."
|
Believers that follow Christ don't need to. "Believers" that don't follow
Christ are in deep trouble. Phil 2:12.
We're all faced with the ingrained belief that what we're doing is not making
God angry at us, or that he won't notice. And that's the death knell.
| Quote: | And the Messiah's true apostles differed with Paul on this subject as
well:
1Jn 4:17 "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness
in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jn 4:18 There is NO FEAR in love; but perfect love casteth out
fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect
in love."
|
Of course. There is no problem for those that listen to God. It's those that
give him lip service that are in trouble - keeping excess change, homosexual
practice, remarriage/adultery following civil divorce, fornication, greed,
pride, etc.
| Quote: | You shouldn't teach fear, Duke.
|
It's those that don't that are the ones leading others down the road to
perdition.
| Quote: | Christ gave us a perform form of prayer
here:
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in
heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in
heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.
Amen.
|
Yes he did, the Holy Mass. Doing just exactly as he advised us at the Last
Supper
You see, God does not tempt us, but we as humankind turn right to sin.
And for your information, "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the
glory, for ever", known as the doxology in the Mass, is not part of the Lord's
Prayer.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
***** |
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| Back to top |
Linda Lee
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:39 am Post subject: Re: Proof Paul was not saved, Acts 20:26 |
|
|
On Aug 15, 2:04 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:28:47 -0700 (PDT), Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com
wrote:
?? That is an untrue RCC doctrine that negates all of the teachings of
the Messiah of repentance and forgiveness of sins for which we've
repented.
Either way, when we die, Jesus judges us for every wrong word we said while in
the flesh. If we are sorry for it and repented of doing it again, we should go
to purgatory to get the stain of sinning removed from our soul. If we are not
sorry and not repented, it's off to satan land.
I realize that paying for sin in purgatory is a Catholic doctrine, but
it is the opposite of having our sins forgiven via repentance. How
does the church reconcile Christ's promise here to an admittedly
guilty man?
If you die in mortal sin, you have destroyed your relationship with God. Heb
10:26-27 advises that only the fires of hell await him.
Hebrews 10:26-27 (New International Version)
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of
the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of
judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
|
It doesn't apply to Luke 23:43 as that man had no knowledge of the
truth prior to accepting Christ.
| Quote: |
So it's not a Catholic doctrine, it's the word of God
|
So you're saying the gospel of Luke is not the word of God, but
Hebrews is the word of God. Is there something wrong with you?
*THIS* IS THE WORD OF GOD to a believer: "To day shalt thou be with
me in paradise" (Luke 23:43).
| Quote: |
1 John 5:16 (New International Version)
16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he
should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead
to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should
pray about that.
|
That is speaking about the unforgivable sin, saying the spirit within
the Messiah was unclean/evil (since it was the Spirit of God so it is
blasphemy of the Holy Spirit):
Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the
sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath
never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mar 3:30 Because they said, He [the Messiah] hath an unclean spirit.
| Quote: |
Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him,
saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou
fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our
deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest
into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day
shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Death bed confession of love of Jesus.
|
Your point?
| Quote: |
Rev 21:27: "
nothing unclean will enter heaven
"
Mat 5:8: "Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God"
Heb 12:14: "strive
for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord".
Mat 5:48: "
be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".
Philippians 2:12 (New International Version)
Shining as Stars
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyednot only in my
presence, but now much more in my absencecontinue to work out your salvation
with fear and trembling,
Anyone following Paul is likely to be afraid.
And Paul received his knowledge from Christ.
LOL. Paul says the opposite of Christ. I see you've deleted and
ignored Christ's words on fear. Let me restore them for you:
The Messiah shows that what Paul said is false and evil and taught
that believers don't need to fear:
Mat 10:31 "Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many
sparrows.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I
confess also before my Father which is in heaven."
Believers that follow Christ don't need to. "Believers" that don't follow
Christ are in deep trouble. Phil 2:12.
We're all faced with the ingrained belief that what we're doing is not making
God angry at us, or that he won't notice. And that's the death knell.
And the Messiah's true apostles differed with Paul on this subject as
well:
1Jn 4:17 "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness
in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jn 4:18 There is NO FEAR in love; but perfect love casteth out
fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect
in love."
Of course. There is no problem for those that listen to God. It's those that
give him lip service that are in trouble - keeping excess change, homosexual
practice, remarriage/adultery following civil divorce, fornication, greed,
pride, etc.
|
We weren't talking about pretend believers; we were talking about
believers. Excess change is first on your list of sins? That must be
a great temptation for you.
| Quote: |
You shouldn't teach fear, Duke.
It's those that don't that are the ones leading others down the road to
perdition.
|
Really? Christ taught believers not to fear, so you're saying he was
leading us down the road to damnation? You don't make any sense.
| Quote: |
Christ gave us a perform form of prayer
here:
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in
heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in
heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.
Amen.
Yes he did, the Holy Mass. Doing just exactly as he advised us at the Last
Supper
You see, God does not tempt us, but we as humankind turn right to sin.
And for your information, "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the
glory, for ever", known as the doxology in the Mass, is not part of the Lord's
Prayer.
|
You're saying the Mass is the Lord's prayer in Matt. 6:9-13, minus the
last line? (I see the last line is not in the Greek text per the
Greek to English Interlinear I have.)
| Quote: |
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
***** |
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