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Susan Maneck
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 4:10 am Post subject: Re: The Soul

... Even if someone has

Quote:

done all good in their lives, at the end they can change for the
worse; and even if someone has done much bad, Baha'u'llah says that
their condition can change at the end of the lives for the better:

Dear Suzanne,

That much is true.

Quote:

So why not after the end?

I think to a certain extent free will is a function of the ambiguities
of life. Once we die that ambiguity is gone, and with it free will as
we know it now.

warmest, Susan

Suzanne
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul

Susan wrote:

Quote:

I think to a certain extent free will is a function of the ambiguities
of life. Once we die that ambiguity is gone, and with it free will as
we know it now.

Dear Susan,

Free will implies that a person can choose to do good or evil. The
choice
to do evil is not present in the next world, so I would have to agree
with
you that free will, as we know it, is not operant. But so far nobody
has
responded to the quote I have cited that makes it clear that a person
who
died in sin can progress through prayers which they themselves have
initiated. This is at least will -- a volitional activity.

It isn't just me that thinks this. In The Purpose of Physical Reality
John Hatcher makes this point:

"When we misinterpret these passages from the statements of 'Abdu'l-
Baha to imply that physical existence is the one opportunity for
growth, or at least for the soul to take an active part in its own
development, we fail to recognize that other forms of volitional
activity can abound in a spiritual realm. Furthermore, by perceiving
the willful progress of the soul as confined to the physical stage of
life, we fail to recognize that the forgiveness of God is not so
confined. Perhaps there remains in the next world the requisite that
we desire pardon and grace and act accordingly in order to receive His
forgiveness, but certainly we can envision other sorts of actions
besides physical activity to accomplish this..." p. 144

Best wishes,

Suzanne

Kent Johnson
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul

Hi Suzanne,

My view about all these esoteric issues, soul, spirit, spirituality and
metaphysics is that it is all too weird. The reason I am a Baha'i is
because I can understand the Writings explananation without the weird stuff.

I know what a soul is: it is a person's essence. It is not some
theoretical, esoteric, metaphysical thing that I can only read about. It is
the person's true (albeit to me somewhat theoretical) essence. I need no
further explanation or understanding of metaphysics, Aristotle or Augustine
to understand what it is. The question becomes, what is the person's
essence? Obviously it has little to do with facial features or skin color.
In my opinion character has a lot to do with it, but of course that is
conjecture based on what I believe is important in the universe, important
to me, important to the rest of humanity.

I do not pretend to know God's perspective on the issues, though I know
pretty well what is in the Writings which allows me to be a Baha'i and keep
my understanding.

Quote:

I have heard that theory as well, but I believe it's based on one
quote from 'Abdu'l-Baha without really considering the other quote(s)
that may modify it.

Although I don't know which quote you are talking about, I can assure you
that I received my understanding of these issues reading the Writings, but I
do not base my understanding on any quote from the Writings. I can support
my understanding with quotes, however.

Quote:

I can't see how you can see it any other way, since it
definitely does say that people progress through their own initiative
-- through their supplications and entreaties to God.

Oh that quote. Yes, I understand now what you mean, which is why I
responded: "But in any case, whatever is done from beyond cannot be
identified individually..." So sure, I agree that there is progress beyond,
but it is not individually attributable, not a part of an individual's
essence or "soul" to which we can attribute such progress. As I said, I can
only speak from a human perspective, and I believe the individuality of a
soul is lost when that soul is not identifiable, and it can only be
individually identifiable by what that soul accomplished while abiding in
the contingent realm.

Quote:

That sounds to me like eternal hell for those who don't have any loved
ones in this world.

That sounds to me like being lost, not being individual anymore. Sounds to
me like the truth. If we do not align ourselves with something better than
we are as individuals, join the Cause, we are lost in a very, very large and
wild realm. The worlds of God are numberless, and I have experienced many
of them. There is only one clear and bright path, and regardless who we
are, we will one day lose our individuality and be forgotten on earth.

Quote:

That doesn't seem like the sort of scenario a
loving, compassionate, ever-forgiving God would create.

So why is there misery?

Quote:

I'm reminded
of 'Abdu'l-Baha's explanation about why the literal story of Adam and
Eve is impossible.

If memory serves, 'Abdu'l-Baha acceded that several interpretations of that
story are true.

Quote:

It isn't something that
I could imagine from the God of Love that I know.

That seems to me a dangerous line of thought, since so much in these worlds
is unjust, cruel and miserable. My perspective is that in the end we can be
grateful, and that is where I focus. If I were to judge the world by how
humanity is treated and not by the personal glory I have experienced I am
afraid I might not judge this world to be a good place, and by implication,
God would not be such a good Thing.

Quote:

As we
develop more and more spiritual qualities it's like we have more and
more facets which can reflect various colors of the light of God.

I think we differ on what it means to "reflect ... the light of God". I
think doing so requires specific, sustained and personally sacrificial
deeds.

Thanks for reading, and work on the dissertation. --Kent

"Suzanne" <sb.gerstner@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:nfednZdlyL3i2oHVnZ2dnUVZ_t6onZ2d@giganews.com...

Quote:

Kent wrote:

Hi Suzanne, hope this means your dissertation is finished.

I'm getting there.

"At that point a soul may very well repent and turn to God, even if they
opposed the Manifestation of God in this life."

My conception of the soul is the essence of a person, and I don't believe
it
can change, in the eyes of the living, after the person has passed on
except
by the intercession of people who have not passed on.

I have heard that theory as well, but I believe it's based on one
quote from 'Abdu'l-Baha without really considering the other quote(s)
that may modify it. The quote that I cited definitely does this, in
my opinion. I can't see how you can see it any other way, since it
definitely does say that people progress through their own initiative
-- through their supplications and entreaties to God.

It seems to me, just thinking rationally, that the essence of a person's
life, the person's physical existence is fixed at the time of the
person's
death. After that point, the only way that person's essence can be
changed
or recognized differently from what they were while alive, is by the
actions
of those who still have a physical existence.

That sounds to me like eternal hell for those who don't have any loved
ones in this world. That doesn't seem like the sort of scenario a
loving, compassionate, ever-forgiving God would create. I'm reminded
of 'Abdu'l-Baha's explanation about why the literal story of Adam and
Eve is impossible. He said:

"If we take this story in its apparent meaning, according to the
interpretation of the masses, it is indeed extraordinary. The
intelligence cannot accept it, affirm it, or imagine it; for such
arrangements, such details, such speeches and reproaches are far from
being those of an intelligent man, how much less of the Divinity -
that Divinity Who has organized this infinite universe in the most
perfect form, and its innumerable inhabitants with absolute system,
strength and perfection."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 123)

Well, I find that to be the case for the idea that whatever we do in
this life is the end of it, and no change can take place in the next
world in our condition except by having people in this world pray for
us and give charitable donations in our name. It isn't something that
I could imagine from the God of Love that I know.

I think volition is a big part of a person's soul, nearly all of it.

I think it's an activity or attribute of the soul. It isn't the soul
itself.

What
we do is what we are, and what we do is what we want to do.

I think there's a lot more to it than doing alone. Baha'u'llah likens
the soul to a "heavenly gem." I tend to think of a diamond. As we

Best wishes.

Suzanne

Kent Johnson
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul

Hi Susan,

Quote:

I think to a certain extent free will is a function of the ambiguities
of life. Once we die that ambiguity is gone, and with it free will as
we know it now.

I see it more like spiritual inertia. If in our lives we choose over and
over to do the difficult, the challenging and that which will likely better
the lot of our neighbors, we will continue doing that. But if we are the
ones who sit on the couch and take it all in, we will continue to do that
instead.

--Kent

"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cPadnRfE9peP1IHVnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d@giganews.com...

Quote:

.. Even if someone has
done all good in their lives, at the end they can change for the
worse; and even if someone has done much bad, Baha'u'llah says that
their condition can change at the end of the lives for the better:

Dear Suzanne,

That much is true.

So why not after the end?

I think to a certain extent free will is a function of the ambiguities
of life. Once we die that ambiguity is gone, and with it free will as
we know it now.

warmest, Susan

Susan Maneck
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul

But so far nobody

Quote:

has
responded to the quote I have cited that makes it clear that a person
who
died in sin can progress through prayers which they themselves have
initiated. This is at least will -- a volitional activity.

Dear Suzanne,

I'm sorry. You posted a lot of quotes and I can't find the one you are
referring to above. Could you put it up again?

There is no doubt that souls continue to progress after death, but my
understanding is that their progress at that point depends more on
God's grace and less on our free will.

warmest, Susan

Suzanne
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul

On May 3, 12:46 pm, "Kent Johnson" <k...@compx2.com> wrote:

Quote:

Dear Kent,

There are many very practical down to earth subjects in the Writings
like the importance of good deeds and the equality of men and women,
etc. But there are also mystical Writings which do talk about things
which actually aren't the physical dimension of life but the spiritual
dimension, which you could say is esoteric. What's wrong with that?
There's plenty to interest people who are interested in all different
subjects from all different angles. Unity in diversity, eh?

Kent:

Quote:

I know what a soul is: it is a person's essence. <snip
In my opinion character has a lot to do with it, but of course that is
conjecture based on what I believe is important in the universe, important
to me, important to the rest of humanity.

What is character? There is personality, which is what is constructed
to manage the particular life circumstances of an individual, and the
immortal soul, which, as Baha'u'llah says, no mind, however great, can
fathom. So it's not so simple or easy to understand.

Kent:

I can support

Quote:

my understanding with quotes, however.

I would appreciate it.

Kent:

I believe the individuality of a

Quote:

soul is lost when that soul is not identifiable, and it can only be
individually identifiable by what that soul accomplished while abiding in
the contingent realm.

Can you share a quote that says or implies this, please? If the
individuality is lost, then how can souls in the next world be
conscious of one another, and associate with one another, and enjoy
bonds of intimacy and fellowship, and be of differing grades, as this
passage suggests?

"And now concerning thy question whether human souls continue to be
conscious one of another after their separation from the body. Know
thou that the souls of the people of Baha, who have entered and been
established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune
intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in
their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even
as one soul. They are indeed the ones who are well-informed, who are
keen-sighted, and who are endued with understanding. Thus hath it
been decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.
The people of Baha, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are,
one and all, well aware of one another's state and condition, and are
united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state,
however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are
of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another's
capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a
lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the
station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them.
Each shall receive his share from thy Lord.
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Pages: 169-170)

Kent:

Quote:

The worlds of God are numberless, and I have experienced many
of them.

Really? Which worlds, other than this one and the world of sleep,
have you experienced?

Suzanne:

Quote:

That doesn't seem like the sort of scenario a
loving, compassionate, ever-forgiving God would create.

Kent:

Quote:

So why is there misery?

Suffering is of two kinds. The one is natural and is needed so that
people will free themselves from attachments to this world and turn to
the world of God. It's the caue of awakening and mindfulness. The
other cause is because we have free will and both a higher and lower
nature. Many people choose to act from their lower nature and are
selfish, greedy and uncaring of others and they inflict a great deal
of suffering on others.

Kent:

Quote:

If memory serves, 'Abdu'l-Baha acceded that several interpretations of that [Adam and Eve]
story are true.

I wasn't speaking about the story per se, but was using 'Abdu'l-BAha's
example of looking at a story to see if made sense in terms of a
loving, caring God.

Suzanne:

Quote:

It isn't something that
I could imagine from the God of Love that I know.

Kent:

Quote:

That seems to me a dangerous line of thought, since so much in these worlds
is unjust, cruel and miserable.

I'm not sure what you see as being dangerous. I am truly not
advocating that people should act badly in this life and just hope for
the best in the next world. I certainly do believe that it's
important to recognize the Manifestation of God and to follow His
teachings and develop their spiritual qualities. I just disagree with
you in terms of souls being able to initiate their own progress in the
next world, but I am using a quote which implies this to support my
contention.

Suzanne:

Quote:

develop more and more spiritual qualities it's like we have more and
more facets which can reflect various colors of the light of God.

Kent:

Quote:

I think we differ on what it means to "reflect ... the light of God". I
think doing so requires specific, sustained and personally sacrificial
deeds.

I agree with this. The spiritual qualities we develop in this life
can only be shown when they are put into practice in our lives.

Best wishes,

Suzanne

Paul Bartlett
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:21 am Post subject: Re: The Soul

On Fri, 2 May 2008, Suzanne wrote (excerpt):

Quote:

Well, I find that to be the case for the idea that whatever we do in
this life is the end of it, and no change can take place in the next
world in our condition except by having people in this world pray for
us and give charitable donations in our name. It isn't something that
I could imagine from the God of Love that I know.

It may be that this sort of thing is on my mind just now, because I
received word a few hours ago that my 90-year-old mother died earlier
today after a long illness, and I may be online right now to distract
myself.

I have long had a problem with this Baha'i notion that progress in the
next world depends on prayers of the living and good works done in the
deceased's name. Consider this scenario (which is not mine,
incidentally). Someone is an only child, and each of her parents was
an only child (not implausible), so that she has no siblings, aunts,
uncles, or cousins. Her parents die before her, which is not uncommon.
She never marries and has no children. She embraces the Baha'i Faith
in mature years. Then she dies. She has no close blood relatives to
pray for her. If she had not long been a Baha'i and was a shy person,
so that she was not well known in the Baha'i community, when she dies
the practical effect is that she may have literally no one to pray for
her. If her progress in the next world depends on the prayers of
others, there seems to be a serious injustice here for those who have
no one to pray for them.

--
Paul Bartlett

Susan Maneck
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: Re: The Soul

Dear Paul,

We are all very sorry for your loss.

Quote:

I have long had a problem with this Baha'i notion that progress in the
next world depends on prayers of the living and good works done in the
deceased's name.

I don't think that is necessarily the *only* way souls progress. The
point is that our intercession can make a difference.

warmest, Susan

Suzanne
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: Re: The Soul

On May 3, 5:17 pm, "Susan Maneck" <sman...@gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

But so far nobody

has
responded to the quote I have cited that makes it clear that a person
who
died in sin can progress through prayers which they themselves have
initiated. This is at least will -- a volitional activity.

Dear Suzanne,

I'm sorry. You posted a lot of quotes and I can't find the one you are
referring to above. Could you put it up again?

Dear Susan,

Here it is again:

"As we have power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall
possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of
God. Are not all the people in that world the creatures of God?
Therefore, in that world also they can make progress. As here they
can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead
for forgiveness and receive light through entreaties and
supplications. Thus as souls in this world, through the help of the
supplications, the entreaties and the prayers of the holy ones, can
acquire development, so is it the same after death. Through their
own
prayers and supplications they can also progress, more especially
when
they are the object of the intercession of the Holy Manifestations."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 232)

It's very much like the one which seems to say that we can only
progress through the prayers and intercessions of others, except it
contains an active element of the one who died to attempt to initiate
their progress

Susan:.

Quote:

There is no doubt that souls continue to progress after death, but my
understanding is that their progress at that point depends more on
God's grace and less on our free will.

Even in this world, we have willed action: prayers, good actions,
etc., but at the end of the day our spiritual progress also depends on
the grace and bounty of God. If we don't pray or do good deeds in the
right spirit, they won't be acceptable to God:

"The very life of all deeds is My good
pleasure, and all things depend upon Mine acceptance.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 31)

Best wishes,

Suzanne

Suzanne
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: Re: The Soul

Paul Bartlett wrote:

Quote:

Dear Paul,

I'm so sorry to hear of your loss.

Paul:

Quote:

I have long had a problem with this Baha'i notion that progress in the
next world depends on prayers of the living and good works done in the
deceased's name. Consider this scenario (which is not mine,
incidentally). Someone is an only child, and each of her parents was
an only child (not implausible), so that she has no siblings, aunts,
uncles, or cousins. Her parents die before her, which is not uncommon.
She never marries and has no children. She embraces the Baha'i Faith
in mature years. Then she dies. She has no close blood relatives to
pray for her. If she had not long been a Baha'i and was a shy person,
so that she was not well known in the Baha'i community, when she dies
the practical effect is that she may have literally no one to pray for
her. If her progress in the next world depends on the prayers of
others, there seems to be a serious injustice here for those who have
no one to pray for them.

I agree. That's my point exactly. There was a Baha'i joke I once
heard. A Baha'i died and went to heaven, but they couldn't find any
other Baha'is. When asked where they all were they were told, they're
pioneering in hell. ;-)

Even if the people in this world are oblivious of the needs of a soul
that died without family and friends, God and the people in the next
world will not be unaware of this. And God is All-Merciful.

I became a Baha'i have first having read the book, Life Afer Life, by
Dr. Raymond Moody outlining people's near death experiences.
Basically everyone, whatever their beliefs, had positive near death
experiences. The one exception was people who committed suicide
because they saw the grief they caused and couldn't do anything about
it form the next world to remedy the situation. I think that's what
hell is. But for most people it is wonderful to die. It's a release
from the prison of their body -- especially for people like your
mother who was very old and infirm. The Baha'i Writings are filled
with positive quotes about the afterlife, and it's this that first
moved me to investigate the Faith. These positive quotes aren't
specific to Baha'is or those who have been prayed for. Here are a
couple which come to my mind:

"To consider that after the death of the body the spirit perishes, is
like imagining that a bird in a cage will be destroyed if the cage is
broken, though the bird has nothing to fear from the destruction of
the cage. Our body is like the cage, and the spirit is like the bird.
We see that without the cage this bird flies in the world of sleep;
therefore if the cage becomes broken, the bird will continue and
exist: its feelings will be even more powerful, its perceptions
greater, and its happiness increased. In truth, from hell it reaches a
paradise of delights, because for the thankful birds there is no
paradise greater than freedom from the cage. That is why with utmost
joy and happiness the martyrs hasten to the plain of sacrifice.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 326)

And this one:

"I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou
grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou
veil thyself therefrom?"
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

I will pray for the progress of your mother's soul.

All best wishes,

Suzanne

Kent Johnson
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:23 am Post subject: Re: The Soul

Hi Suzanne.

Quote:

I didn't say there was anything wrong, I said I don't believe them. We all
believe what we want to. I don't call your beliefs bad names, and you don't
call my beliefs bad names. That's unity.

There is nothing esoteric or mystical about spirit. It is as real as a rock,
it is just not as physical as a rock.

Quote:

What is character? There is personality, which is what is constructed
to manage the particular life circumstances of an individual

In my present thinking character is the personality we construct for
ourselves. I don't mind if you attribute our personalities to other
influences, and I don't deny that there are other influences. But our
personalities and our characters are our own. No one lives in a vacuum, and
no one is a leaf in the wind.

Quote:

...and the
immortal soul, which, as Baha'u'llah says, no mind, however great, can
fathom. So it's not so simple or easy to understand.

We cannot understand the essence of anything, we do not understand essences.
I know you have heard me say this and quote support for the notion from
Writings you respect. A soul is an essence. We cannot understand essences.
We can only know relationships, aspects and attributes. But there is no
need to invent metaphysics, occult and mystical to confuse what an essence
is.

Quote:

I would appreciate it.

What is it you think I need to support? That there is no mysticism
supported in the Writings? That 'Abdu'l-Baha used reason and made sense? I
need to know what you think I need to support in order to support it.

Me:

Quote:

I believe the individuality of a
soul is lost when that soul is not identifiable, and it can only be
individually identifiable by what that soul accomplished while abiding in
the contingent realm.

You ask me to support what I believe with the Writings. But how could
anyone dispute such logic? If we are not identifiable we are not
individual. We are identified, our souls are, what we are, what we do. Do
you need to hear Baha'u'llah say it to know it is true? We are souls, we
don't have souls that we manipulate. If we are not individuals we are not
identified. If no one alive can identify us we are not individual, no
matter how we feel. If we have no traits to differentiate us from others,
we are not individuals.

Quote:

If the
individuality is lost, then how can souls in the next world be
conscious of one another, and associate with one another, and enjoy
bonds of intimacy and fellowship, and be of differing grades, as this
passage suggests?

Individuality is lost when the soul is not identifiable. Are you saying
that you think our souls are uniquely identifiable like DNA for all
eternity? That is the physical realm. In a non-physical world we recognize
and are recognized sure, but there are no words, no registry of names, no
fingerprints, and eternity is a long time. Our main experience of the
non-physical here is our dreams or visions. Do you need Writings to support
this idea? Recognition in dreams is often an iffy affair. We are often not
sure about the identity of others in our dreams.

Quote:

Which worlds, other than this one and the world of sleep,
have you experienced?

I am able to enter strange worlds pretty much at will, kind of like
fantasies but more like dreams. It is not an ability I cultivate, and I
have not done intentionally in about ten years. I do not find this ability
of mine helpful in any way. If you are really interested I could tell you
more, but I have a *mystical* background and probably because of it I am
skeptical of many of the claims of others.

Quote:

I wasn't speaking about the story per se, but was using 'Abdu'l-BAha's
example of looking at a story to see if made sense...

Precisely.

Quote:

I'm not sure what you see as being dangerous.

The notion that God or His Creation must show certain qualities for you to
believe in Him.

Quote:

I just disagree with
you in terms of souls being able to initiate their own progress in the
next world, but I am using a quote which implies this to support my
contention.

I don't disagree directly. I just think you put too much stock in our
immortal individuality. Progress will always be made. God works in broad
strokes, the devil is in the details. We are bound by time and space in our
ability to conceive of worlds. In the broadest of strokes we progress, and
we retain our individuality, but if we make any difference at all we join,
we give allegiance and sacrifice everything for what is greater than
ourselves, than our individuality. Whether we intend to make the sacrifice
or not, we eventually do. And the word "eventually" is only from this
perspective, not from the timeless next world. Our sacrifice is inevitable,
the only question is how much we have to give.

Quote:

The spiritual qualities we develop in this life
can only be shown when they are put into practice in our lives.

I am glad to hear you say that. I thought you said the opposite when you
said: "As we develop more and more spiritual qualities it's like we have
more..."

We develop those qualities by doing, and what we have more of is the ability
to do more for others.

Thanks for writing. This is fun for me.

--Kent

"Suzanne" <sb.gerstner@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:trednd0w2MJiY4HVnZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@giganews.com...

Quote:

On May 3, 12:46 pm, "Kent Johnson" <k...@compx2.com> wrote:
Hi Suzanne,

My view about all these esoteric issues, soul, spirit, spirituality and
metaphysics is that it is all too weird. The reason I am a Baha'i is
because I can understand the Writings explananation without the weird
stuff.

Dear Kent,

There are many very practical down to earth subjects in the Writings
like the importance of good deeds and the equality of men and women,
etc. But there are also mystical Writings which do talk about things
which actually aren't the physical dimension of life but the spiritual
dimension, which you could say is esoteric. What's wrong with that?
There's plenty to interest people who are interested in all different
subjects from all different angles. Unity in diversity, eh?

Kent:

I know what a soul is: it is a person's essence. <snip
In my opinion character has a lot to do with it, but of course that is
conjecture based on what I believe is important in the universe,
important
to me, important to the rest of humanity.

What is character? There is personality, which is what is constructed
to manage the particular life circumstances of an individual, and the
immortal soul, which, as Baha'u'llah says, no mind, however great, can
fathom. So it's not so simple or easy to understand.

Kent:

I can support
my understanding with quotes, however.

I would appreciate it.

Kent:

I believe the individuality of a
soul is lost when that soul is not identifiable, and it can only be
individually identifiable by what that soul accomplished while abiding in
the contingent realm.

Can you share a quote that says or implies this, please? If the
individuality is lost, then how can souls in the next world be
conscious of one another, and associate with one another, and enjoy
bonds of intimacy and fellowship, and be of differing grades, as this
passage suggests?

"And now concerning thy question whether human souls continue to be
conscious one of another after their separation from the body. Know
thou that the souls of the people of Baha, who have entered and been
established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune
intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in
their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even
as one soul. They are indeed the ones who are well-informed, who are
keen-sighted, and who are endued with understanding. Thus hath it
been decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.
The people of Baha, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are,
one and all, well aware of one another's state and condition, and are
united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state,
however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are
of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another's
capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a
lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the
station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them.
Each shall receive his share from thy Lord.
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Pages: 169-170)

Kent:

The worlds of God are numberless, and I have experienced many
of them.

Really? Which worlds, other than this one and the world of sleep,
have you experienced?

Suzanne:

That doesn't seem like the sort of scenario a
loving, compassionate, ever-forgiving God would create.

Kent:

So why is there misery?

Suffering is of two kinds. The one is natural and is needed so that
people will free themselves from attachments to this world and turn to
the world of God. It's the caue of awakening and mindfulness. The
other cause is because we have free will and both a higher and lower
nature. Many people choose to act from their lower nature and are
selfish, greedy and uncaring of others and they inflict a great deal
of suffering on others.

Kent:

If memory serves, 'Abdu'l-Baha acceded that several interpretations of
that [Adam and Eve]
story are true.

I wasn't speaking about the story per se, but was using 'Abdu'l-BAha's
example of looking at a story to see if made sense in terms of a
loving, caring God.

Suzanne:

It isn't something that
I could imagine from the God of Love that I know.

Kent:

That seems to me a dangerous line of thought, since so much in these
worlds
is unjust, cruel and miserable.

I'm not sure what you see as being dangerous. I am truly not
advocating that people should act badly in this life and just hope for
the best in the next world. I certainly do believe that it's
important to recognize the Manifestation of God and to follow His
teachings and develop their spiritual qualities. I just disagree with
you in terms of souls being able to initiate their own progress in the
next world, but I am using a quote which implies this to support my
contention.

Suzanne:

develop more and more spiritual qualities it's like we have more and
more facets which can reflect various colors of the light of God.

Kent:

I think we differ on what it means to "reflect ... the light of God". I
think doing so requires specific, sustained and personally sacrificial
deeds.

I agree with this. The spiritual qualities we develop in this life
can only be shown when they are put into practice in our lives.

Best wishes,

Suzanne

Kent Johnson
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:23 am Post subject: Re: The Soul

Hi Suzanne.

Quote:

What is character? There is personality, which is what is constructed
to manage the particular life circumstances of an individual

Quote:

...and the
immortal soul, which, as Baha'u'llah says, no mind, however great, can
fathom. So it's not so simple or easy to understand.

Quote:

I would appreciate it.

Quote:

I believe the individuality of a
soul is lost when that soul is not identifiable, and it can only be
individually identifiable by what that soul accomplished while abiding in
the contingent realm.

Quote:

Which worlds, other than this one and the world of sleep,
have you experienced?

Quote:

I wasn't speaking about the story per se, but was using 'Abdu'l-BAha's
example of looking at a story to see if made sense...

Precisely.

Quote:

I'm not sure what you see as being dangerous.

The notion that God or His Creation must show certain qualities for you to
believe in Him.

Quote:

I just disagree with
you in terms of souls being able to initiate their own progress in the
next world, but I am using a quote which implies this to support my
contention.

Quote:

The spiritual qualities we develop in this life
can only be shown when they are put into practice in our lives.

Quote:

Kent Johnson
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:30 am Post subject: Re: The Soul

Hi Paul. My 86 year old mother is returning from her long-term pioneering
post due to bad health. She just left the hospital. Until now her health
has been legendary. My sister flew out Friday to bring her home.

The way I look at the intercession issue is about the deeds we do on earth.
To me it seems common sense that what we do here to affect others, to help
and influence others because a part of us, a part of our souls or essence.
Spiritually speaking we are who we help, who we belong with, who we join
with and sacrifice for.

--Kent

"Paul Bartlett" <bartlett@panix.com> wrote in message
news:NKidnb3TWdJWmYDVnZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@giganews.com...

Quote:

On Fri, 2 May 2008, Suzanne wrote (excerpt):

Well, I find that to be the case for the idea that whatever we do in
this life is the end of it, and no change can take place in the next
world in our condition except by having people in this world pray for
us and give charitable donations in our name. It isn't something that
I could imagine from the God of Love that I know.

It may be that this sort of thing is on my mind just now, because I
received word a few hours ago that my 90-year-old mother died earlier
today after a long illness, and I may be online right now to distract
myself.

I have long had a problem with this Baha'i notion that progress in the
next world depends on prayers of the living and good works done in the
deceased's name. Consider this scenario (which is not mine,
incidentally). Someone is an only child, and each of her parents was
an only child (not implausible), so that she has no siblings, aunts,
uncles, or cousins. Her parents die before her, which is not uncommon.
She never marries and has no children. She embraces the Baha'i Faith
in mature years. Then she dies. She has no close blood relatives to
pray for her. If she had not long been a Baha'i and was a shy person,
so that she was not well known in the Baha'i community, when she dies
the practical effect is that she may have literally no one to pray for
her. If her progress in the next world depends on the prayers of
others, there seems to be a serious injustice here for those who have
no one to pray for them.

--
Paul Bartlett

Suzanne
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:39 am Post subject: Re: The Soul

Dear Kent,

You wrote:

Quote:

What is it you think I need to support? \

The idea that individuality is lost when one dies. I have cited a
quote which shows, to me, that our individuality is not lost and
explained what in the quotes leads me to believe this.

Kent:

Quote:

You ask me to support what I believe with the Writings. But how could
anyone dispute such logic? If we are not identifiable we are not
individual.

But we are identifiable. It said in the quote I cited that souls
would recognize one another. It isn't physical, but there must be
some other way that we don't know or understand in this 3-D world of
ours.

Quote:

If no one alive can identify us we are not individual, no
matter how we feel.

Are the people in the next world not alive?

Quote:

Individuality is lost when the soul is not identifiable. Are you
saying
that you think our souls are uniquely identifiable like DNA for all
eternity?

Yes. Everything I've read in the Writings, along with what I've read
about near-death experiences, leads me to believe this. But a question
arises What are you calling individuality? We will not be separate
as most people consider themselves to be in this world. We will be
absolutely united and harmonized with God and other souls. But this
is also supposed to be how we are in this world, like "one soul in
many bodies." I like what 'Abdu'l-Baha says here:

"Let all be set free from the multiple identities that were born of
passion and desire, and in the oneness of their love for God find a
new way of life."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 76)

That is the physical realm. In a non-physical world we recognize

Quote:

and are recognized sure, but there are no words, no registry of names, no
fingerprints,

No. It's a different world with completely different ways of being
than here, but that doesn't make them any less effective or real.

We are often not

Quote:

sure about the identity of others in our dreams.

And a lot of times we can't remember our dreams. But the people who
have had near-death experiences say that their experience is more real
than anything they expreience in normal life. They never forget their
experience and usually it transforms their lives. They become aware
that the most important thing in this life is showing love for others
and they tend to reorganize their lives to reflect this reality.

Suzanne:

Quote:

I'm not sure what you see as being dangerous.

Kent:

Quote:

The notion that God or His Creation must show certain qualities for you to

believe in Him.

I didn't say that God had to show certain qualities for me to believe
in Him. I know that God has certain qualities from the Writings, and
therefore it doesn't make sense to me that He would create a scenario
like the one you imagine: that souls are dependent on other people in
this world for their progress, and that He would abandon those who
don't have anybody here.

Kent:

.... if we make any difference at all we join,

Quote:

we give allegiance and sacrifice everything for what is greater than
ourselves, than our individuality.

Okay. If this is what you're meaning by individuality, then I agree
with you. One passage in the Writings tells us to "be united as the
rays of one Sun." When one ray of light meets other rays of light,
they all become part of the same light.

Whether we intend to make the sacrifice

Quote:

or not, we eventually do. And the word "eventually" is only from this
perspective, not from the timeless next world. Our sacrifice is inevita
ble,
the only question is how much we have to give.

Right. The ego will certainly be lost.

Suzanne:

Quote:

The spiritual qualities we develop in this life
can only be shown when they are put into practice in our lives.

Kent:

Quote:

I am glad to hear you say that. I thought you said the opposite when yo
u
said: "As we develop more and more spiritual qualities it's like we have
more..."

I don't see that as being opposed to our needing to put good qualities
into action, but it's all according to capacity. For instance, a soul
who is born handicapped can't always do anything outwardly, but they
can have amazing soul qualities. Or a soul who was abused as a child
may have limited capcity to act positively in this life, but God can
intercede with them so that they have an amazingly wonderful
afterlife:

"As to the subject of babes and infants and weak ones who are
afflicted by the hands of oppressors: This contains great wisdom and
this subject is of paramount importance. In brief, for those souls
there is a recompense in another world and many details are connected
with this matter. For those souls that suffering is the greatest mercy
of God. Verily that mercy of the Lord is far better and preferable to
all the comfort of this world and the growth and development of this
place of mortality. If it be the will of God, when thou shalt be
present this will be explained in detail by word of mouth."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 372)

Kent, I don't think we are actually all that far apart in what we're
saying. It's just language that gets in the way and the way we're
interpreting what the other means.

Best wishes,

Suzanne

Susan Maneck
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: Re: The Soul

Quote:

But there are also mystical Writings which do talk about things
which actually aren't the physical dimension of life but the spiritual
dimension, which you could say is esoteric. What's wrong with that?

I didn't say there was anything wrong, I said I don't believe them. We a
ll
believe what we want to. I don't call your beliefs bad names, and you don
't
call my beliefs bad names. That's unity.

Dear Kent,

I'm not sure I agree with you on two points. First, I don't agree
that we simply believe what we want to, unless we are extremely
narcissistic. Most people believe what they are persuaded of. Second,
I don't think unity in the Baha'i context means simply letting people
believe whatever they want. The House of Justice speaks of unity
within the Baha'i community in these terms:

"... Unity of doctrine is maintained by the existence of the authentic
texts of Scripture and the voluminous interpretations of 'Abdu'l-Bahá
and Shoghi Effendi, together with the absolute prohibition against
anyone propounding 'authoritative' or 'inspired' interpretations or
usurping the function of Guardian. Unity of administration is assured
by the authority of the Universal House of Justice."

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 315)

It seems to me that ultimately our unity rests in our mutual
recognition that there is an authority outside ourselves.

Quote:

There is nothing esoteric or mystical about spirit. It is as real as a ro
ck,
it is just not as physical as a rock.

And why assume that the mystical and esoteric are not just as real?

Quote:

. But there is no
need to invent metaphysics, occult and mystical to confuse what an essenc
e
is.

But essences are by definition a metaphysical category. Have you read
Aristotle's metaphysics?

Quote:

What is it you think I need to support? That there is no mysticism
supported in the Writings?

hmmm.

"For the core of religious faith is that mystical feeling which unites
man with God.

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 506)

Quote:

That 'Abdu'l-Baha used reason and made sense?

Which has what to do with whether there is mysticism in the Baha'i Faith?

warmest, Susan

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