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Richard H. Gravelly
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 Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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Suzanne,
Where did Baha'u'llah state that the deeds of Mirza Yahya were the "height
of injustice"?
Richard.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Suzanne" <sb.gerstner@ntlworld.com>
| Quote: | Suzanne: I am surprised that God's ability to forgive was ever
questioned.
There is, however, one interesting verse regarding forgiveness which may
be
relevant:
64. O OPPRESSORS ON EARTH!
Withdraw your hands from tyranny, for I have pledged Myself not to
forgive
any man's injustice. This is My covenant which I have irrevocably
decreed in
the preserved tablet and sealed with My seal. (Baha'u'llah, The Persian
Hidden Words)
Dear Richard,
This does look like it's definite. But of course, as Shoghi Effendi
said, "We must never take one sentence in the Teachings and isolate it
from the rest...": (Unfolding Destiny, Page: 457)
How do you reconcile that with what Baha'u'llah said to Mirza Yahya
that God could forgive him, since truly his deeds were the height of
injustice?
Best wishes,
Suzanne
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Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:42 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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I am certain that God meant exactly what He said in both instances.
Dominus vobiscum.
Richard.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Suzanne" <sb.gerstner@ntlworld.com>
| Quote: | Dear Richard,
Yes, it is interesting. How do you reconcile that with other passages
like the one saying that God will forgive Mirza Yahya's misdeeds
(which certainly amounted to terrible oppression) if he sincerely
repents?
Best wishes,
Suzanne
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Suzanne
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:22 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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On May 6, 11:35 pm, "Richard H. Gravelly" <rgrave...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | Suzanne,
Where did Baha'u'llah state that the deeds of Mirza Yahya were the "height~,
of injustice"?
|
Dear Richard,
I didn't say that Baha'u'llah said that. I did. You think they were
not?
Best wishes,
Suzanne |
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Suzanne
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:29 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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Kent wrote:
| Quote: | This conversation has not been going well, in my opinion. I have wanted~,
a
break, and expressed that wish to you several times.
|
Dear Kent,
You say you want a break and then you write a whole lot of things with
many points to answer. I can either ignore them or answer them. I've
been answering them.
Kent:
| Quote: | So please let me move on without insinuating that I am in over my head.
I
just feel as though this talk cheapens spirit itself.
|
It would if it had ever happened. I never insinuated anything of the
sort. I mean you absolutely no harm.
Go in peace my friend. ,
Suzanne |
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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| Quote: | "The progress of man's spirit in the divine world, after the severance
of its connection with the body of dust, is through the bounty and
grace of the Lord alone, or through the intercession and the sincere
prayers of other human souls, or through the charities and important
good works which are performed in its name."
If `Abdu'l-Baha is an authoritative expositor of the teachings of
Baha'u'llah, what else is there?
|
Dear Paul,
What you are missing is the fact that God's grace is primary. He
always has the last word.
warmest, Susan |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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Hi Suzanne,
| Quote: | I honestly have no idea what rule I've changed.
|
This conversation has not been going well, in my opinion. I have wanted a
break, and expressed that wish to you several times.
It sounds more and more like mystical hogwash to me. My beliefs on the
subject are quite specific and explainable. When I said "Without that
individuality it can hardly be called a soul, it is spirit." you answer:
| Quote: | Do you have any quotes to support this view?
|
Now I need to find out what dictionary 'Abdu'l- Baha consulted when he
differentiated between souls and spirits.
If you don't know the difference, and can't see it when I talk about it,
well, I guess we will have to call it a disagreement.
To me, the difference between the rational soul and spirit is as easy to
identify as the difference between1967 Jack Daniel's Black Label and water.
But that isn't your interest, and that is not what you want to talk about.
You: > God has a different system
| Quote: | for those souls to progress than for us.
|
And although I know exactly what I mean when I say a soul progresses towards
reunion with God I can only tell that what I mean is not what you mean. I
don't know what you mean.
I have been trying to take a break from this conversation, not because I am
scared of it, not because it doesn't interest me, not because I don't have
anything to say, but because it makes me uncomfortable.
I feel as though a very specific, beautiful, inspirational, compelling,
sacrificial life-blood of humanity's experience on earth is distilled to
mediums and ghosts. Our sacrifices on earth have meaning, and that meaning
is our prayer, is our offering to God for having lived. If that offering is
not up to our expectations or the expectations of those around us, our
families and friends, oh well. God isn't disappointed, but He isn't going
to be more merciful just because we are more pitiful, is He? He isn't going
to offer the least the most, is He? Should He? Those are the good
questions.
Those who made the sacrifices to elevate the stature of the entire human
race and amazed themselves and all around the world with the specialized
powers of God they learned to command are none-the-worse condemned to
commune with those who couldn't decide if the soul was a spirit or not, and
needed a quote.
So please let me move on without insinuating that I am in over my head. I
just feel as though this talk cheapens spirit itself.
--Kent
"Suzanne" <sb.gerstner@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:n6qdnUcz6ZL-Sb3VnZ2dnUVZ_oKhnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
Kent:
Are you saying that the soul
pre-exists conception?
Dear Kent,
No, I am saying that soul comes into being at the moment of
conception. It associates itself with the body at the moment but that
association is not a physical one. The soul doesn't enter or exit the
body. 'Abdu'l-Baha says:
"The spirit never entered this body... no, the spirit is connected
with the body, as this light is with this mirror."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 239)
Kent:
Is there something similar to reincarnation you are
presuming?
No.
Kent:
If not, then how can you assert that a soul, after passing on,
existed before conception
I didn't. I did say that not all souls are born into this world. I
meant that some souls are aborted or are lost through miscarriages.
They obviously go straight to the next world without having all the
tests and difficulties, the growth and development through this
world. On the death of infants, 'Abdu'l-Baha says:
"These infants are under the shadow of the favor of God; and as they
have not committed any sin and are not soiled with the impurities of
the world of nature, they are the centers of the manifestation of
bounty, and the Eye of Compassion will be turned upon them."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 240)
So my point is that, while most of develop our spirtual qualities
through trying to put the teachings of God into practice in our lives,
other souls go straight to the next world. God has a different system
for those souls to progress than for us.
Kent:
"...and can pray for it's own progress after leaving
this world?"
Because 'Abdu'l-Baha said that. I have quoted Him saying that
repeatedly.
Kent:
The truth is, I am not very interested in dogmatically presenting my
opinion. If you are interested, if I have a hearing ear, I have been
enjoying the conversation. But if you are changing the rules in
mid-discussion I will take my break.
I honestly have no idea what rule I've changed.
Kent:
The individuality of a soul is from this world. Without that
individuality
it can hardly be called a soul, it is spirit.
Do you have any quotes to support this view?
To argue otherwise is either
predestination or reincarnation, or some other as-yet-unexplained belief
system from Suzanne.
Hopefully I've explained now what I meant.
I doubt you believe this conversation takes place in English or Arabic,
right? Do you picture God smoking a cigar in a throne and we at His feet
answering His questions?
Are you trying to insult me? Obviously I have said from the beginning
that the next world is another dimension and everything there is
different.
I don't know what happened for you to feeling and behaving so
negatively towards me, but I don't find this very nice either.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
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Suzanne
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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On May 6, 11:42 pm, "Richard H. Gravelly" <rgrave...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | I am certain that God meant exactly what He said in both instances.
|
Dear Richard,
Me too. In the one instance Baha'u'llah was speaking to the
"Opressors of the Earth" and trying to wake them up and get them to
fear God and live Godly lives. In the other case, He was assuring
someone who had already done great wrong in his life -- (To break the
Covenant, attempt to usurp power from the Manifestation of God; to try
to kill Him, and have others kill Him would be termed as great wrong,
would it not?) -- that God is all Merciful, and he should humble
himself before God and repent and all would be well. Both things are
true, but the purpose was different.
I hope it doesn't come across as if I'm trying to say that we
shouldn't fear God and shouldn't lead goodly lives, but should just
count on our prayers for forgiveness at the end to save us. I always
liked this passage from a letter written on behalf of the Guardian:
"We must be hopeful of God's Mercy but not impose upon it."
(Multiple Authors: Lights of Guidance, Page: 366)
I believe that the warnings are given in our Faith mostly for
indivduals to take to heart themselves and to live in the right way,
but not in order to be able to judge what will happen to other souls
at their end. The position for all of the followers of Baha'u'llah
is one of love of all humankind, and looking on others with a "sin-
covering eye." God is the judge, and not us.
I've cited this passage before, but I find it really important in this
regard since it really tells us not to imagine the end of anyone:
He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for
none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner
attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing
the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on
high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's
ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire!
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 266)
And this pasage by 'Abdu'l-Baha makes it clear that we mustn't see
others -- even the oppressors of th earth -- as bad. God can judge
them, but not us:
"He [Baha'u'llah] said, "... it is not befitting that man should
attribute darkness to another; it is not meet that one human being
should consider another human being as bad; nay, rather, all mankind
are the servants of one God; God is the Father of all; there is not a
single exception to that law. There are no people of Satan; all
belong to the Merciful. There is no darkness; all is light. All are
the servants of God, and man must love humanity from his heart. He
must, verily, behold humanity as submerged in the divine mercy."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Page: 266)
Please know, I'm not saying that you are judging others and saying
that they will never be forgiven. I am just explaining where I'm
coming from.
Best wishes,
Suzanne |
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Suzanne
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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On May 6, 11:42 pm, "Richard H. Gravelly" <rgrave...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | I am certain that God meant exactly what He said in both instances.
|
Dear Richard,
Me too. In the one instance Baha'u'llah was speaking to the
"Opressors of the Earth" and trying to wake them up and get them to
fear God and live Godly lives. In the other case, He was assuring
someone who had already done great wrong in his life -- (To break the
Covenant, attempt to usurp power from the Manifestation of God; to try
to kill Him, and have others kill Him would be termed as great wrong,
would it not?) -- that God is all Merciful, and he should humble
himself before God and repent and all would be well. Both things are
true, but the purpose was different.
I hope it doesn't come across as if I'm trying to say that we
shouldn't fear God and shouldn't lead goodly lives, but should just
count on our prayers for forgiveness at the end to save us. I always
liked this passage from a letter written on behalf of the Guardian:
"We must be hopeful of God's Mercy but not impose upon it."
(Multiple Authors: Lights of Guidance, Page: 366)
I believe that the warnings are given in our Faith mostly for
indivduals to take to heart themselves and to live in the right way,
but not in order to be able to judge what will happen to other souls
at their end. The position for all of the followers of Baha'u'llah
is one of love of all humankind, and looking on others with a "sin-
covering eye." God is the judge, and not us.
I've cited this passage before, but I find it really important in this
regard since it really tells us not to imagine the end of anyone:
He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for
none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner
attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing
the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on
high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's
ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire!
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 266)
And this pasage by 'Abdu'l-Baha makes it clear that we mustn't see
others -- even the oppressors of th earth -- as bad. God can judge
them, but not us:
"He [Baha'u'llah] said, "... it is not befitting that man should
attribute darkness to another; it is not meet that one human being
should consider another human being as bad; nay, rather, all mankind
are the servants of one God; God is the Father of all; there is not a
single exception to that law. There are no people of Satan; all
belong to the Merciful. There is no darkness; all is light. All are
the servants of God, and man must love humanity from his heart. He
must, verily, behold humanity as submerged in the divine mercy."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Page: 266)
Please know, I'm not saying that you are judging others and saying
that they will never be forgiven. I am just explaining where I'm
coming from.
Best wishes,
Suzanne |
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Suzanne
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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O
| Quote: | Suzanne, if Baha'u'llah did not say that Mirza Yahya's deeds were the
"height of injustice" why do you say that they are?
|
Mirza Yahya broke the Covenant and tried to get a great many others to
do the same; attempted to kill the Baha'u'llah, the Manifestation of
God for this Day, and have Him killed by others, and did a great many
other despicable things. Why do you think that the Universal House of
Justice in the forward to the Kitab-i-Aqdas made a point of
Baha'u'llah's willingness to forgive him if Mirza Yahya were just a
run of the mill sinner?
Best wishes,
Suzanne |
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Suzanne
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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On May 7, 12:48 pm, "Richard H. Gravelly" <rgrave...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | Where did you get the idea that Mirza Yahya is to considered an "oppressor"
as you seemed to imply in your previous that he is?
|
You were the one who posted the quote on the Opressors of the Earth in
response to my quote about Baha'u'llah saying God would forgive Mirza
Yahya to repent. What made you think of that quote in that
circumstance?
I have to say, Richard, I don't actually find this a consultation
where two Baha'is are trying to lovingly understand one another's
points of view. It feels more like an interrogation.
Best wishes,
Suzanne |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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Hi Richard, it is important to me to emphasize what I believe you mean when
you say:
| Quote: | I am certain that God meant exactly what He said in both instances.
|
"I have pledged Myself not to forgive any man's injustice."
A single act of a man is not the sum total of the man's existence.
No act of deliberate and oppressive injustice can be forgiven. However the
man himself can, with acts of atonement and attrition that lead to a
fundamental change in character and to the commition of acts of justice and
love and care for other people, be considered worthy of forgiveness for such
acts.
It always seems a cop-out to me when God having the final decision is an
explanation. He could change the laws of gravity as well, but so far as I
know He hasn't recently.
--Kent
This is My covenant which I have irrevocably decreed in
the preserved tablet and sealed with My seal.
"Richard H. Gravelly" <rgravelly@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:zrOdnRrK8sLHY73VnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
I am certain that God meant exactly what He said in both instances.
Dominus vobiscum.
Richard.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Suzanne" <sb.gerstner@ntlworld.com
Dear Richard,
Yes, it is interesting. How do you reconcile that with other passages
like the one saying that God will forgive Mirza Yahya's misdeeds
(which certainly amounted to terrible oppression) if he sincerely
repents?
Best wishes,
Suzanne
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Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Suzanne" <sb.gerstner@ntlworld.com>
"?
Dear Richard,
I didn't say that Baha'u'llah said that. I did. You think they were
not?
Suzanne, if Baha'u'llah did not say that Mirza Yahya's deeds were the
"height of injustice" why do you say that they are?
Richard. |
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Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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Where did you get the idea that Mirza Yahya is to considered an "oppressor"
as you seemed to imply in your previous that he is?
Richard.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Suzanne" <sb.gerstner@ntlworld.com>
| Quote: | Dear Richard,
Me too. In the one instance Baha'u'llah was speaking to the
"Opressors of the Earth" and trying to wake them up and get them to
fear God and live Godly lives. In the other case, He was assuring
someone who had already done great wrong in his life -- (To break the
Covenant, attempt to usurp power from the Manifestation of God; to try
to kill Him, and have others kill Him would be termed as great wrong,
would it not?) -- that God is all Merciful, and he should humble
himself before God and repent and all would be well. Both things are
true, but the purpose was different.
I hope it doesn't come across as if I'm trying to say that we
shouldn't fear God and shouldn't lead goodly lives, but should just
count on our prayers for forgiveness at the end to save us. I always
liked this passage from a letter written on behalf of the Guardian:
"We must be hopeful of God's Mercy but not impose upon it."
(Multiple Authors: Lights of Guidance, Page: 366)
I believe that the warnings are given in our Faith mostly for
indivduals to take to heart themselves and to live in the right way,
but not in order to be able to judge what will happen to other souls
at their end. The position for all of the followers of Baha'u'llah
is one of love of all humankind, and looking on others with a "sin-
covering eye." God is the judge, and not us.
I've cited this passage before, but I find it really important in this
regard since it really tells us not to imagine the end of anyone:
He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for
none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner
attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing
the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on
high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's
ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire!
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 266)
And this pasage by 'Abdu'l-Baha makes it clear that we mustn't see
others -- even the oppressors of th earth -- as bad. God can judge
them, but not us:
"He [Baha'u'llah] said, "... it is not befitting that man should
attribute darkness to another; it is not meet that one human being
should consider another human being as bad; nay, rather, all mankind
are the servants of one God; God is the Father of all; there is not a
single exception to that law. There are no people of Satan; all
belong to the Merciful. There is no darkness; all is light. All are
the servants of God, and man must love humanity from his heart. He
must, verily, behold humanity as submerged in the divine mercy."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Page: 266)
Please know, I'm not saying that you are judging others and saying
that they will never be forgiven. I am just explaining where I'm
coming from.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
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Suzanne
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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On May 7, 3:17 pm, "Richard H. Gravelly" <rgrave...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | ----- Original Message -----
From: "Suzanne" <sb.gerst...@ntlworld.com
. Why do you think that the Universal House of
Justice in the forward to the Kitab-i-Aqdas made a point of
Baha'u'llah's willingness to forgive him if Mirza Yahya were just a
run of the mill sinner?
Suzanne, what I think is not the issue. What, in the Writings, gives you
the warrant to refer to the deeds of Mirza Yahya as anything other than what
has been written?
|
Dear Richard,
This is from the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha:
| Quote: |
"And still another of His trials was the hostility, the flagrant |
injustice, the iniquity and rebellion of Mirza Yahya."
(Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 4)
Would you be happier if I used the word "flagrant" with injustice?
Would that give me "the warrant"?
Best wishes,
Suzanne |
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Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
|
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com>
... However the
| Quote: | man himself can, with acts of atonement and attrition that lead to a
fundamental change in character and to the commition of acts of justice
and
love and care for other people, be considered worthy of forgiveness for
such
acts.
|
Kent, that sounds very reasonable. What makes you believe that God will
make that distinction and judge according to your belief?
| Quote: |
It always seems a cop-out to me when God having the final decision is an
explanation. He could change the laws of gravity as well, but so far as I
know He hasn't recently. |
Kent, I have found no reason to speculate as to what God will or will not
do. I do not know if you have read the section in Gleanings which begins.
"Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer,
as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds." (Baha'u'llah,
Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 133).
You may find it enlighstening in this context.
P.S. I am aware that the term "cop-out" has been in used in America for
some time. I have however, never understood its meaning, except that it
rimplies a cowardly act or thought. I would like to point out that God is
my only refuge.
"Seek ye refuge in God from whatsoever might lead you astray from the Source
of His Revelation and hold fast unto His Cord, for whoso holdeth fast unto
His allegiance, he hath attained and will attain salvation in all the
worlds." (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 85)
Dominus vobiscum.
Richard. |
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