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Kent Johnson
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 Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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Hi Richard,
| Quote: | What makes you believe that God will
make that distinction and judge according to your belief?
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According to my belief? That is a strange way to put it. My belief is
based upon investigation of God's reality. Certainly it is my theory which
you admit is supported by reason. It is as though you ask my why a bridge
is standing or a mountain remains in place.
--Kent
"Richard H. Gravelly" <rgravelly@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:jqadnVAHB5OVObzVnZ2dnUVZ_rGhnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com
.. However the
man himself can, with acts of atonement and attrition that lead to a
fundamental change in character and to the commition of acts of justice
and
love and care for other people, be considered worthy of forgiveness for
such
acts.
Kent, that sounds very reasonable. What makes you believe that God will
make that distinction and judge according to your belief?
It always seems a cop-out to me when God having the final decision is an
explanation. He could change the laws of gravity as well, but so far as
I
know He hasn't recently.
Kent, I have found no reason to speculate as to what God will or will not
do. I do not know if you have read the section in Gleanings which begins.
"Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign
Ordainer,
as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds." (Baha'u'llah,
Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 133).
You may find it enlighstening in this context.
P.S. I am aware that the term "cop-out" has been in used in America for
some time. I have however, never understood its meaning, except that it
rimplies a cowardly act or thought. I would like to point out that God is
my only refuge.
"Seek ye refuge in God from whatsoever might lead you astray from the
Source
of His Revelation and hold fast unto His Cord, for whoso holdeth fast unto
His allegiance, he hath attained and will attain salvation in all the
worlds." (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 85)
Dominus vobiscum.
Richard.
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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Sorry, I didn't see the rest of your message. Too many >>>>s clouding my
vision. Only upon re-reading did I realize that you had more to say.
| Quote: | P.S. I am aware that the term "cop-out" has been in used in America for
some time
|
What I meant, in plainer English, is that to answer a question with "only
God knows" is not a reasonable answer. It is just another way of saying
that we don't know, and our reason is inadequate to explain it. If we have
no reasonable answer I can think of no helpful answer.
Everything is subject to God's Will. So pointing out that this particular
thing is subject to God's Will is accurate, but usually not helpful.
" God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from
the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 133)"
As He is with everything. I have a similar complaint about the common
Baha'i assertion that we cannot understand the Essence of essences even in
the face of full knowledge that we cannot understand essences of any kind.
We understand things by their attributes, and God is also understood by His
attributes, just like everything else.
--Kent
"Richard H. Gravelly" <rgravelly@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:jqadnVAHB5OVObzVnZ2dnUVZ_rGhnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com
.. However the
man himself can, with acts of atonement and attrition that lead to a
fundamental change in character and to the commition of acts of justice
and
love and care for other people, be considered worthy of forgiveness for
such
acts.
Kent, that sounds very reasonable. What makes you believe that God will
make that distinction and judge according to your belief?
It always seems a cop-out to me when God having the final decision is an
explanation. He could change the laws of gravity as well, but so far as
I
know He hasn't recently.
Kent, I have found no reason to speculate as to what God will or will not
do. I do not know if you have read the section in Gleanings which begins.
"Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign
Ordainer,
as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds." (Baha'u'llah,
Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 133).
You may find it enlighstening in this context.
P.S. I am aware that the term "cop-out" has been in used in America for
some time. I have however, never understood its meaning, except that it
rimplies a cowardly act or thought. I would like to point out that God is
my only refuge.
"Seek ye refuge in God from whatsoever might lead you astray from the
Source
of His Revelation and hold fast unto His Cord, for whoso holdeth fast unto
His allegiance, he hath attained and will attain salvation in all the
worlds." (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 85)
Dominus vobiscum.
Richard.
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Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Suzanne" <sb.gerstner@ntlworld.com>
| Quote: | . Why do you think that the Universal House of
Justice in the forward to the Kitab-i-Aqdas made a point of
Baha'u'llah's willingness to forgive him if Mirza Yahya were just a
run of the mill sinner?
|
Suzanne, what I think is not the issue. What, in the Writings, gives you
the warrant to refer to the deeds of Mirza Yahya as anything other than what
has been written?
Richard.
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Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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You apparently missed the point of the post regarding "Oppressors "
Suzanne. I posted it as an example regarding what God would not forgive. I
posted it to indicate that God does not necessarily forgive everything even
though He will forgive Mirza Yahya if he will repent.
Richard.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Suzanne" <sb.gerstner@ntlworld.com>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
To: <bahai-faith@bcca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:37 AM
Subject: Re: The Soul
| Quote: | On May 7, 12:48 pm, "Richard H. Gravelly" <rgrave...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
Where did you get the idea that Mirza Yahya is to considered an
"oppressor"
as you seemed to imply in your previous that he is?
You were the one who posted the quote on the Opressors of the Earth in
response to my quote about Baha'u'llah saying God would forgive Mirza
Yahya to repent. What made you think of that quote in that
circumstance?
I have to say, Richard, I don't actually find this a consultation
where two Baha'is are trying to lovingly understand one another's
points of view. It feels more like an interrogation.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
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Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com>
| Quote: | Hi Richard,
What makes you believe that God will
make that distinction and judge according to your belief?
According to my belief? That is a strange way to put it. My belief is
based upon investigation of God's reality. Certainly it is my theory
which
you admit is supported by reason.
|
Kent, I wrote "sounds very reasonable". That is not the same as "supported
by reason".
It is as though you ask my why a bridge
| Quote: | is standing or a mountain remains in place.
|
Kent, you will need to translate your metaphor so that I can understand what
you are telling me what you think I am saying.
Richard.
> |
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Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com>
...
| Quote: |
Everything is subject to God's Will. So pointing out that this particular
thing is subject to God's Will is accurate, but usually not helpful.
|
Kent, I haven't found the answers given by humankind helpful at all. By the
way, I attached the most relevant portion of your posted quote. Using the
first sentence only is a bit misleading.
| Quote: |
" God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must
result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained |
unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath
willed and confidently abide by the same. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the
Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 133)
| Quote: |
As He is with everything. I have a similar complaint about the common
Baha'i assertion that we cannot understand the Essence of essences even
in
the face of full knowledge that we cannot understand essences of any kind.
We understand things by their attributes, and God is also understood by
His
attributes, just like everything else.
|
Kent, Baha'u'llah has revealed some perplexity regarding the issue:
"How can I claim to have known Thee, when the entire creation is bewildered
by Thy mystery, and how can I confess not to have known Thee, when, lo, the
whole universe proclaimeth Thy Presence and testifieth to Thy truth?"
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 63)
Dominus vobiscum.
Richard.
| Quote: |
"Richard H. Gravelly" <rgravelly@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:jqadnVAHB5OVObzVnZ2dnUVZ_rGhnZ2d@giganews.com...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com
.. However the
man himself can, with acts of atonement and attrition that lead to a
fundamental change in character and to the commition of acts of justice
and
love and care for other people, be considered worthy of forgiveness for
such
acts.
Kent, that sounds very reasonable. What makes you believe that God will
make that distinction and judge according to your belief?
It always seems a cop-out to me when God having the final decision is
an
explanation. He could change the laws of gravity as well, but so far
as
I
know He hasn't recently.
Kent, I have found no reason to speculate as to what God will or will
not
do. I do not know if you have read the section in Gleanings which
begins.
"Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign
Ordainer,
as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds." (Baha'u'llah,
Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 133).
You may find it enlighstening in this context.
P.S. I am aware that the term "cop-out" has been in used in America for
some time. I have however, never understood its meaning, except that it
rimplies a cowardly act or thought. I would like to point out that God
is
my only refuge.
"Seek ye refuge in God from whatsoever might lead you astray from the
Source
of His Revelation and hold fast unto His Cord, for whoso holdeth fast
unto
His allegiance, he hath attained and will attain salvation in all the
worlds." (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 85)
Dominus vobiscum.
Richard.
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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Hi Richard,
| Quote: | "sounds very reasonable" ... is not the same as "supported
by reason".
|
I am sorry if I took advantage of your sensibilities.
What is the difference, then, between reason and what sounds reasonable? Is
there a difference between logic and what sounds logical? Music and what
sounds musical? Joy and what sounds joyful?
Is it your contention that one should not assume the sound of something is
support for it?
| Quote: | Kent, you will need to translate your metaphor so that I can understand
what
you are telling me what you think I am saying.
|
You: "What makes you believe that God will make that distinction and judge
according to your belief?"
The fact that my conceptuality of existence supports my experience. Like a
bridge or a mountain generally remain in place unless some discernable,
extenuating circumstance precludes it.
--Kent
"Richard H. Gravelly" <rgravelly@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:05ednTFOcc4NVbzVnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com
Hi Richard,
What makes you believe that God will
make that distinction and judge according to your belief?
According to my belief? That is a strange way to put it. My belief is
based upon investigation of God's reality. Certainly it is my theory
which
you admit is supported by reason.
Kent, I wrote "sounds very reasonable". That is not the same as
"supported
by reason".
It is as though you ask my why a bridge
is standing or a mountain remains in place.
Kent, you will need to translate your metaphor so that I can understand
what
you are telling me what you think I am saying.
Richard.
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Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com>
| Quote: | Hi Richard,
"sounds very reasonable" ... is not the same as "supported
by reason".
I am sorry if I took advantage of your sensibilities.
|
You didn't take advantage Kent.
| Quote: |
What is the difference, then, between reason and what sounds reasonable?
|
Kent, to my munderstanding "supported by reason" is the same as "supported
by verifiable evidence".
Is
| Quote: | there a difference between logic and what sounds logical?
|
I think so Kent.
Music and what
| Quote: | sounds musical?
I think there is a difference here Kent. If it sounds musical, it is music. |
If it is said to be music (as in the twelve tone scale music) but is not
musical to me, it is not music.
Joy and what sounds joyful?
In a certain sense "joy" is subjective. Yet I believe that true joy is of
divine origin; although some may not think so Kent.
| Quote: |
Is it your contention that one should not assume the sound of something is
support for it?
|
Kent, I should have written "It reads as very reasonable".
| Quote: |
You: "What makes you believe that God will make that distinction and judge
according to your belief?"
The fact that my conceptuality of existence supports my experience.
|
Can you give me a specific example of your "conceptuality of existence
support(ng) your experience?
Richard.
> |
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Paul Bartlett
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:32 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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On Tue, 6 May 2008, Susan Maneck wrote:
| Quote: | "The progress of man's spirit in the divine world, after the severance
of its connection with the body of dust, is through the bounty and
grace of the Lord alone, or through the intercession and the sincere
prayers of other human souls, or through the charities and important
good works which are performed in its name."
If `Abdu'l-Baha is an authoritative expositor of the teachings of
Baha'u'llah, what else is there?
Dear Paul,
What you are missing is the fact that God's grace is primary. He
always has the last word.
|
I see it not so much a matter of what people believe God can do as what
they believe he has said. At least in the Abrahamic tradition, people
have believed that God can do anything which it is logically coherent
to suppose. Could God repeal the Covenant of Baha'u'llah tomorrow? I
presume that most Baha'is believe that God could do so if he chose to
do so. Do they believe that God will repeal the Covenant of
Baha'u'llah tomorrow? Probably not. Does God always have the last
word? Given theistic belief, yes. But what has he said that he will
voluntarily limit himself to? It seems to me that if `Abdu'l-Baha is
an authoritative expositor, then he (`Abdu'l-Baha) is teaching a matter
of how God has set things up, not how he (God) could have set them up
otherwise or how he would overrule what he has already set up.
(This is a little like the dispute between Muslims and Baha'is that
has been mooted here in the past. Muslims believe that God could send
a new prophet every day until the end of the world if he so chose, but
they also believe that God has announced that he would not in fact do
so, that in his infinite freedom he has made Muhammad the last
prophet and messenger, so that the belief in Baha'u'llah as a
messenger or prophet of God is simply ruled out in advance.)
--
Paul Bartlett |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:55 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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That is the way I see it too, Paul.
It is little comfort to me that out of trillions of souls, God might choose
to reward me in ways He would not reward others.
That God *might* do what is unfair to the rest of His creatures is an idea I
have to live with. But for me, the comfort is in the fact that I have
always gotten much more than I deserved. I presume it is the same for
others. From my experience, our only reasonable choice is to be grateful
for what we have.
--Kent
"Paul Bartlett" <bartlett@panix.com> wrote in message
news:uYedneIxpvyPm7_VnZ2dnUVZ_tqtnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | On Tue, 6 May 2008, Susan Maneck wrote:
"The progress of man's spirit in the divine world, after the severance
of its connection with the body of dust, is through the bounty and
grace of the Lord alone, or through the intercession and the sincere
prayers of other human souls, or through the charities and important
good works which are performed in its name."
If `Abdu'l-Baha is an authoritative expositor of the teachings of
Baha'u'llah, what else is there?
Dear Paul,
What you are missing is the fact that God's grace is primary. He
always has the last word.
I see it not so much a matter of what people believe God can do as what
they believe he has said. At least in the Abrahamic tradition, people
have believed that God can do anything which it is logically coherent
to suppose. Could God repeal the Covenant of Baha'u'llah tomorrow? I
presume that most Baha'is believe that God could do so if he chose to
do so. Do they believe that God will repeal the Covenant of
Baha'u'llah tomorrow? Probably not. Does God always have the last
word? Given theistic belief, yes. But what has he said that he will
voluntarily limit himself to? It seems to me that if `Abdu'l-Baha is
an authoritative expositor, then he (`Abdu'l-Baha) is teaching a matter
of how God has set things up, not how he (God) could have set them up
otherwise or how he would overrule what he has already set up.
(This is a little like the dispute between Muslims and Baha'is that
has been mooted here in the past. Muslims believe that God could send
a new prophet every day until the end of the world if he so chose, but
they also believe that God has announced that he would not in fact do
so, that in his infinite freedom he has made Muhammad the last
prophet and messenger, so that the belief in Baha'u'llah as a
messenger or prophet of God is simply ruled out in advance.)
--
Paul Bartlett
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:24 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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Hi Richard,
| Quote: | ...to my munderstanding "supported by reason" is the same as "supported
by verifiable evidence".
|
To me, reason is different from evidence.
| Quote: | Can you give me a specific example of your "conceptuality of existence
support(ng) your experience?
|
Those things about the bridge and the mountain were examples. Also, if
someone throws something in my direction, I can often manipulate the
physical mechanics of my existence to catch that something, or at least move
out of its path. Such is an indication that my space/time conceptuality is
to some extent accurate, and therefore useful.
--Kent
"Richard H. Gravelly" <rgravelly@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:UsadnfnT7IqocrzVnZ2dnUVZ_s2tnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com
Hi Richard,
"sounds very reasonable" ... is not the same as "supported
by reason".
I am sorry if I took advantage of your sensibilities.
You didn't take advantage Kent.
What is the difference, then, between reason and what sounds reasonable?
Kent, to my munderstanding "supported by reason" is the same as
"supported
by verifiable evidence".
Is
there a difference between logic and what sounds logical?
I think so Kent.
Music and what
sounds musical?
I think there is a difference here Kent. If it sounds musical, it is
music.
If it is said to be music (as in the twelve tone scale music) but is not
musical to me, it is not music.
Joy and what sounds joyful?
In a certain sense "joy" is subjective. Yet I believe that true joy is of
divine origin; although some may not think so Kent.
Is it your contention that one should not assume the sound of something
is
support for it?
Kent, I should have written "It reads as very reasonable".
You: "What makes you believe that God will make that distinction and
judge
according to your belief?"
The fact that my conceptuality of existence supports my experience.
Can you give me a specific example of your "conceptuality of existence
support(ng) your experience?
Richard.
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Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:36 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com>
| Quote: | Those things about the bridge and the mountain were examples. Also, if
someone throws something in my direction, I can often manipulate the
physical mechanics of my existence to catch that something, or at least
move
out of its path. Such is an indication that my space/time conceptuality
is
to some extent accurate, and therefore useful.
|
"Useful" Kent? Isn't knowldge of "use" a learned construct and
non-essential? Or are you using the specific example of avoiding danger to
point out that continued existence is fundamental or essential?
Richard.
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Suzanne
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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On May 7, 8:32 pm, Paul Bartlett <bartl...@panix.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Tue, 6 May 2008, Susan Maneck wrote:
"The progress of man's spirit in the divine world, after the severance
of its connection with the body of dust, is through the bounty and
grace of the Lord alone, or through the intercession and the sincere
prayers of other human souls, or through the charities and important
good works which are performed in its name."
If `Abdu'l-Baha is an authoritative expositor of the teachings of
Baha'u'llah, what else is there?
|
Dear Paul,
A common error in religion has always been taking one passage from
Scriptures and ignoring other passages which may modify or shed
entirely new light on it.
While I agree that the passage you cite looks pretty final, I have
been citing another passage by 'Abdu'l-Baha which says that a person
in the next world can also initiate his progress through his own
prayers and supplications as well as the things mentioned above here.
I will share it again if you like.
Best wishes,
Suzanne |
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Susan Maneck
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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| Quote: | I see it not so much a matter of what people believe God can do as what
they believe he has said. At least in the Abrahamic tradition, people
have believed that God can do anything which it is logically coherent
to suppose. Could God repeal the Covenant of Baha'u'llah tomorrow? I
presume that most Baha'is believe that God could do so if he chose to
do so. Do they believe that God will repeal the Covenant of
Baha'u'llah tomorrow? Probably not. Does God always have the last
word? Given theistic belief, yes. But what has he said that he will
voluntarily limit himself to? It seems to me that if `Abdu'l-Baha is
an authoritative expositor, then he (`Abdu'l-Baha) is teaching a matter
of how God has set things up, not how he (God) could have set them up
otherwise or how he would overrule what he has already set up.
|
Dear Paul,
The point I think you are missing is that according to Abdu'l-Baha
God's grace (not simply His will) has the last word.
warmest, Susan |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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Hi Richard,
| Quote: | Isn't knowldge of "use" a learned construct and
non-essential?
|
Keeps me out of the hospital for the most part, and I find that useful.
| Quote: | ...continued existence is fundamental or essential?
|
I would say existence is fundamental, yes. And hopefully useful. But
essential to what? To me? Is continued existence essential to me? Well,
for the time being I find it useful.
--Kent
"Richard H. Gravelly" <rgravelly@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:X_idndISfofU_7_VnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com
Those things about the bridge and the mountain were examples. Also, if
someone throws something in my direction, I can often manipulate the
physical mechanics of my existence to catch that something, or at least
move
out of its path. Such is an indication that my space/time conceptuality
is
to some extent accurate, and therefore useful.
"Useful" Kent? Isn't knowldge of "use" a learned construct and
non-essential? Or are you using the specific example of avoiding danger
to
point out that continued existence is fundamental or essential?
Richard. |
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