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Kent Johnson
Guest
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 Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: The Soul |
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Hi Richard.
It amazes me when we reach the same conclusions from such different starting
points.
I had never heard anyone posit that it was the soul that learns, but
hearing it the first time from you it strikes me as a truism.
If the soul is that part of a person that make the decisions, that makes it
the part of a person that learns.
So, in your conception, does the soul learn after separating from the body?
And how do you explain your answer?
--Kent
"Richard H. Gravelly" <rgravelly@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:ZuidnRcFZ_8WyYrVnZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com
How does one lose one's soul?
Kent,
"Disease" also suggests a process that is aggressively degenerative. I
believe that it is the soul that learns. Is it not lost if it can no
longer
learn?
Richard. |
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Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:57 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
|
|
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com>
| Quote: | So, in your conception, does the soul learn after separating from the
body?
And how do you explain your answer?
|
Kent, you ask a question (s), which to answer will require far more space
than the moderator will allow. I cannot explain what Baha'u'llah has not.
"The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet
and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 156)
How the soul "learns" or "knows" as it progresses, I cannot describe. The
words "learn" and "know" suggest some volition that is used on this plane.
Whether volition is to be exercised in the next worlds: I don't know. My
point in the previous post was that if the soul cannot learn through its
capacity to recognize God; or if the "disease" affects this capacity and
causes it to deteriorate, is that soul then not lost?
"Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body,
will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state
and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the
changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the
Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will
manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving
kindness and bounty." (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of
Baha'u'llah, p. 155)
Dominus vobiscum.
Richard.
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Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
|
|
Hi Richard. I have to admit I am disappointed. The essence of anything is
unknown, as 'Abdu'l-Baha clearly says in many places:
"Know that there are two kinds of knowledge: the knowledge of the essence of
a thing, and the knowledge of its qualities. The essence of a thing is known
through its qualities, otherwise it is unknown and hidden." (Abdu'l-Baha,
Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 321)
So when the Writings say something is unknowable it almost always refers to
essences, which we cannot know. The Essence of Essences can be known, like
everything else through the attributes shown by the Manifestation on earth,
as the Writings tell us over and over again. That we cannot know anything
of its essence is just the way it is, and should not deter us from trying to
know the attributes of things.
| Quote: | ... nor is it meet
and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men
|
That is a different point. Baha'u'llah has refused to explain more about
the attributes of the soul after death. But it is not forbidden for those
of us in contingent reality to try to explain it.
| Quote: | Whether volition is to be exercised in the next worlds: I don't know.
|
Bill Sears told the story of saying to the Guardian it will be nice to reach
the next world where we can rest. "You think you rest in the next world?"
Apparently the soul is that part of us which contains volition, and it does
not "rest" after we have left this world.
| Quote: | ...if the "disease" affects this capacity and
causes it to deteriorate, is that soul then not lost?
|
I suppose it is relative. It is lost to those who know better, but not to
those who don't.
--Kent
"Richard H. Gravelly" <rgravelly@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:T-mdnQ3c4ouYwoXVnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com
So, in your conception, does the soul learn after separating from the
body?
And how do you explain your answer?
Kent, you ask a question (s), which to answer will require far more space
than the moderator will allow. I cannot explain what Baha'u'llah has not.
"The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet
and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 156)
How the soul "learns" or "knows" as it progresses, I cannot describe. The
words "learn" and "know" suggest some volition that is used on this plane.
Whether volition is to be exercised in the next worlds: I don't know. My
point in the previous post was that if the soul cannot learn through its
capacity to recognize God; or if the "disease" affects this capacity and
causes it to deteriorate, is that soul then not lost?
"Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body,
will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a
state
and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the
changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as
the
Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It
will
manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving
kindness and bounty." (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of
Baha'u'llah, p. 155)
Dominus vobiscum.
Richard. |
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Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
|
|
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com>
That we cannot know anything
| Quote: | of its essence is just the way it is, and should not deter us from tryi
ng |
to
| Quote: | know the attributes of things.
|
Kent, it is axiomatic, I believe, in the Faith that there is much to be
discovered and understood.
"Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its
secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths
...
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 136)
| Quote: |
... "nor is it meet
and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of
men." --Baha'u'llah
That is a different point. Baha'u'llah has refused to explain more abo
ut
the attributes of the soul after death. But it is not forbidden for th
ose
of us in contingent reality to try to explain it.
|
I pointed out that "I" cannot describe what Baha'u'llah has not. I canno
t
speak for what you can or cannot do in this situation.
| Quote: |
Whether volition is to be exercised in the next worlds: I don't know
...
Bill Sears told the story of saying to the Guardian it will be nice to
reach
the next world where we can rest. "You think you rest in the next world
?" |
For me Kent, Baha'u'llah has adequately described what will be in the nex
t
world and the world's beyond. I have no reason to speculate.
| Quote: | Apparently the soul is that part of us which contains volition, and it
does
not "rest" after we have left this world.
|
It is clear that the soul continues to progress after its separation from
the body; but we don't know much mre than that.
The Soul Will Continue to Ascend Through Many Worlds
"Concerning the future life what Bahá'u'lláh says is that the soul wi
ll
continue to ascend through many worlds. What those worlds are and what th
eir
nature is we cannot know. The same way the child in the matrix cannot kno
w
this world so we cannot know what the other world is going to be."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believe
r,
October 18, 1932)
What we consider "rest" or "activity" may have no meaning whatever in the
next world Kent.
| Quote: | ...if the "disease" affects this capacity and
causes it to deteriorate, is that soul then not lost?
I suppose it is relative. It is lost to those who know better, but not
to
those who don't.
|
Kent, I am very much pleased that you have pointed to that concept. Sekk
ing
agreement with you I came across the very quotation which I have been
searching out for weeks.
"Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are enjoined to constantly
refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any explanations we make t
o
ease the journey of the soul of any individual must be based on the Word
--
and the Word alone."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the National Spiritua
l
Assembly of Canada, June 4, 1957)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 313)
I must say however that I do not believe that truth, of whatever kind,
changes as personal opinion or personal interpretation changes.
Dominus vobiscum.
Richard. |
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Suzanne
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
|
|
Richard wrote:
| Quote: | How the soul "learns" or "knows" as it progresses, I cannot describe. The
words "learn" and "know" suggest some volition that is used on this plane.
Whether volition is to be exercised in the next worlds: I don't know.
|
Hi Richard,
I glean from this passage that the soul has volition in the next
world:
"As we have power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall
possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of
God. Are not all the people in that world the creatures of God?
Therefore, in that world also they can make progress. As here they
can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead
for forgiveness and receive light through entreaties and
supplications. Thus as souls in this world, through the help of the
supplications, the entreaties and the prayers of the holy ones, can
acquire development, so is it the same after death. Through their own
prayers and supplications they can also progress, more especially when
they are the object of the intercession of the Holy Manifestations."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 232)
It would seem that souls in the next world who have died in sin can
choose to supplicate God and pray for their progress. They realise
that something needs to happen and then they are acting on that
decision. Isn't that what volition is all about?
Richard:
My
| Quote: | point in the previous post was that if the soul cannot learn through its
capacity to recognize God; or if the "disease" affects this capacity and
causes it to deteriorate, is that soul then not lost?
|
I don't think there's a concept in the Baha'i Writings of the finality
of being lost for a soul. I remember reading that Baha'u'llah told
Mirza Yahya, who had actually poisoned the Manifestation of God and
spent his entire life working against him, that if he just sincerely
beseeched God to fogiven him, all would be well. God's forgiveness is
far greater than we can possibly know or understand. As it says in
this prayer:
"Although some souls have spent the days of their lives in ignorance,
and became estranged and contumacious, yet, with one wave from the
ocean of Thy forgiveness, all those encompassed by sin will be set
free."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Baha'i Prayers (US edition), Page: 47)
Best wishes,
Suzanne |
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| Back to top |
Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
|
|
Hi Richard,
| Quote: | For me Kent, Baha'u'llah has adequately described what will be in the next
world and the world's beyond.
|
I am not so interested in a description. I assume all non-physical
existence has similarity to dreaming as that is our non-physical experience
while in this world.
I am interested in relating the spiritual to the non-physical with more
specific definitions and conceptual models than what I have found so far.
The afterlife as described is only marginally helpful for that purpose, but
if we could define what we mean by our souls or spirits, and relate those
things to what is "spiritual", that would be very helpful to my interest.
"Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are enjoined to constantly
refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any explanations we make to
ease the journey of the soul of any individual must be based on the Word
and the Word alone." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to
the National Spiritual Assembly of Canada, June 4, 1957) (Compilations,
Lights of Guidance, p. 313)
From my reading of that quote at this time it appears a salient point is
that our best guidance to Divine Truth is from the Word. Not sure what is
meant by the emphasis "and the Word alone" since we all need to use our
knowledge, be it spiritual or not, in the real world, and must be guided by
the results of our actions.
| Quote: | I must say however that I do not believe that truth, of whatever kind,
changes as personal opinion or personal interpretation changes.
|
It seems to me when the Guardian talks about relative truth he is talking
about from one Revelation of God to the next.
I would be interested in what you glean from this passage.
--Kent
"Richard H. Gravelly" <rgravelly@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:XaqdnQ7yFd4-BYXVnZ2dnUVZ_hmtnZ2d@giganews.com...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com>
That we cannot know anything
| Quote: | of its essence is just the way it is, and should not deter us from tryi
ng |
to
| Quote: | know the attributes of things.
|
Kent, it is axiomatic, I believe, in the Faith that there is much to be
discovered and understood.
"Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its
secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths
....
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 136)
| Quote: |
... "nor is it meet
and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of
men." --Baha'u'llah
That is a different point. Baha'u'llah has refused to explain more abo
ut
the attributes of the soul after death. But it is not forbidden for th
ose
of us in contingent reality to try to explain it.
|
I pointed out that "I" cannot describe what Baha'u'llah has not. I canno
t
speak for what you can or cannot do in this situation.
| Quote: |
Whether volition is to be exercised in the next worlds: I don't know
....
Bill Sears told the story of saying to the Guardian it will be nice to
reach
the next world where we can rest. "You think you rest in the next world
?" |
For me Kent, Baha'u'llah has adequately described what will be in the nex
t
world and the world's beyond. I have no reason to speculate.
| Quote: | Apparently the soul is that part of us which contains volition, and it
does
not "rest" after we have left this world.
|
It is clear that the soul continues to progress after its separation from
the body; but we don't know much mre than that.
The Soul Will Continue to Ascend Through Many Worlds
"Concerning the future life what Bahá'u'lláh says is that the soul wi
ll
continue to ascend through many worlds. What those worlds are and what th
eir
nature is we cannot know. The same way the child in the matrix cannot kno
w
this world so we cannot know what the other world is going to be."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believe
r,
October 18, 1932)
What we consider "rest" or "activity" may have no meaning whatever in the
next world Kent.
| Quote: | ...if the "disease" affects this capacity and
causes it to deteriorate, is that soul then not lost?
I suppose it is relative. It is lost to those who know better, but not
to
those who don't.
|
Kent, I am very much pleased that you have pointed to that concept. Sekk
ing
agreement with you I came across the very quotation which I have been
searching out for weeks.
"Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are enjoined to constantly
refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any explanations we make t
o
ease the journey of the soul of any individual must be based on the Word
--
and the Word alone."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the National Spiritua
l
Assembly of Canada, June 4, 1957)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 313)
I must say however that I do not believe that truth, of whatever kind,
changes as personal opinion or personal interpretation changes.
Dominus vobiscum.
Richard. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
|
|
Suzanne, your quotation from "Some Answered Questions" does not resolve the
issue of "volition" to me. The reason is that on this plane one may assert
self or ego. I suspect that in the next world, that is impossible. Thus
the power of which Abdu'l-Baha speaks is something entirely different from
what we experience her as "volition".
I have also heard the story regarding Mirza Yahya. As I have not seen the
Tablet or an authenticated Writing regarding it, I cannot use it as
authority.
On Ocean, I find no phrase "lost soul". However, I find this verse from
Baha'u'llah startling.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Suzanne" <sb.gerstner@ntlworld.com>
| Quote: |
"As we have power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall
possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of
God. Are not all the people in that world the creatures of God?
Therefore, in that world also they can make progress. As here they
can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead
for forgiveness and receive light through entreaties and
supplications. Thus as souls in this world, through the help of the
supplications, the entreaties and the prayers of the holy ones, can
acquire development, so is it the same after death. Through their own
prayers and supplications they can also progress, more especially when
they are the object of the intercession of the Holy Manifestations."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 232)
It would seem that souls in the next world who have died in sin can
choose to supplicate God and pray for their progress. They realise
that something needs to happen and then they are acting on that
decision. Isn't that what volition is all about?
Richard:
My
point in the previous post was that if the soul cannot learn through its
capacity to recognize God; or if the "disease" affects this capacity and
causes it to deteriorate, is that soul then not lost?
I don't think there's a concept in the Baha'i Writings of the finality
of being lost for a soul. I remember reading that Baha'u'llah told
Mirza Yahya, who had actually poisoned the Manifestation of God and
spent his entire life working against him, that if he just sincerely
beseeched God to fogiven him, all would be well. God's forgiveness is
far greater than we can possibly know or understand. As it says in
this prayer:
"Although some souls have spent the days of their lives in ignorance,
and became estranged and contumacious, yet, with one wave from the
ocean of Thy forgiveness, all those encompassed by sin will be set
free."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Baha'i Prayers (US edition), Page: 47)
Best wishes,
Suzanne
|
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|
| Back to top |
Richard H. Gravelly
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
|
|
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com>
| Quote: | Hi Richard,
The afterlife as described is only marginally helpful for that purpose,
but
if we could define what we mean by our souls or spirits, and relate tho
se
things to what is "spiritual", that would be very helpful to my interes
t. |
Kent, the history of religions tells me that when men wish to define what
the Manifestation has revealed, they tend to leave out what they cannot s
ee
at the time. I prefer not to define; but rather to discover.
| Quote: |
"Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are enjoined to constantly
refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any explanations we make
to
ease the journey of the soul of any individual must be based on the Wor
d
and the Word alone." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian
to
the National Spiritual Assembly of Canada, June 4, 1957) (Compilations
,
Lights of Guidance, p. 313)
that our best guidance to Divine Truth is from the Word. Not sure what
is
meant by the emphasis "and the Word alone" since we all need to use our
knowledge, be it spiritual or not, in the real world, and must be guid
ed |
by
| Quote: | the results of our actions.
|
Kent, I find that my own "knowledge" (whatever that may be) is a hinderan
ce.
Remembrance of the Words of God removes the veils.
"Know verily that Knowledge is of two kinds: Divine and Satanic. The one
welleth out from the fountain of divine inspiration; the other is but a
reflection of vain and obscure thoughts. The source of the former is God
Himself; the motive-force of the latter the whisperings of selfish desire
...
The one is guided by the principle: "Fear ye God; God will teach you;"[1]
the other is but a confirmation of the truth: "Knowledge is the most
grievous veil between man and his Creator." (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iq
an,
p. 69)
| Quote: |
...
It seems to me when the Guardian talks about relative truth he is talki
ng
about from one Revelation of God to the next.
|
I agree with that view Kent; as there is no truth of any kind that has no
t
been revealed through a Revealation.
Dominus vobiscum.
Richard.
| Quote: |
"Richard H. Gravelly" <rgravelly@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:XaqdnQ7yFd4-BYXVnZ2dnUVZ_hmtnZ2d@giganews.com...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com
That we cannot know anything
of its essence is just the way it is, and should not deter us from tr
yi
ng
to
know the attributes of things.
Kent, it is axiomatic, I believe, in the Faith that there is much to be
discovered and understood.
"Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its
secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its dept
hs
...
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 136)
... "nor is it meet
and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of
men." --Baha'u'llah
That is a different point. Baha'u'llah has refused to explain more a
bo
ut
the attributes of the soul after death. But it is not forbidden for
th
ose
of us in contingent reality to try to explain it.
I pointed out that "I" cannot describe what Baha'u'llah has not. I can
no
t
speak for what you can or cannot do in this situation.
Whether volition is to be exercised in the next worlds: I don't kn
ow
...
Bill Sears told the story of saying to the Guardian it will be nice t
o
reach
the next world where we can rest. "You think you rest in the next wor
ld
?"
For me Kent, Baha'u'llah has adequately described what will be in the n
ex
t
world and the world's beyond. I have no reason to speculate.
Apparently the soul is that part of us which contains volition, and i
t
does
not "rest" after we have left this world.
It is clear that the soul continues to progress after its separation fr
om
the body; but we don't know much mre than that.
The Soul Will Continue to Ascend Through Many Worlds
"Concerning the future life what Bahá'u'lláh says is that the soul
wi
ll
continue to ascend through many worlds. What those worlds are and what
th
eir
nature is we cannot know. The same way the child in the matrix cannot k
no
w
this world so we cannot know what the other world is going to be."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual belie
ve
r,
October 18, 1932)
What we consider "rest" or "activity" may have no meaning whatever in t
he
next world Kent.
...if the "disease" affects this capacity and
causes it to deteriorate, is that soul then not lost?
I suppose it is relative. It is lost to those who know better, but n
ot
to
those who don't.
Kent, I am very much pleased that you have pointed to that concept. Se
kk
ing
agreement with you I came across the very quotation which I have been
searching out for weeks.
"Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are enjoined to constantly
refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any explanations we make
t
o
ease the journey of the soul of any individual must be based on the Wor
d
--
and the Word alone."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the National Spirit
ua
l
Assembly of Canada, June 4, 1957)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 313)
I must say however that I do not believe that truth, of whatever kind,
changes as personal opinion or personal interpretation changes.
Dominus vobiscum.
Richard.
|
|
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:48 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
|
|
Hi Richard,
| Quote: | I prefer not to define; but rather to discover.
|
Can you give me an example?
Also, I don't understand why you would say: "I find that my own "knowledge"
(whatever that may be) is a hinderance" just before quoting Baha'u'llah:
"... Knowledge is of two kinds: Divine and Satanic." Are you thinking that
we can't have Divine knowledge, but we can have Satanic knowledge?
--Kent
"Richard H. Gravelly" <rgravelly@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:yMqdnS3_V_2eyYfVnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <kent@compx2.com>
| Quote: | Hi Richard,
The afterlife as described is only marginally helpful for that purpose,
but
if we could define what we mean by our souls or spirits, and relate tho
se
things to what is "spiritual", that would be very helpful to my interes
t. |
Kent, the history of religions tells me that when men wish to define what
the Manifestation has revealed, they tend to leave out what they cannot s
ee
at the time. I prefer not to define; but rather to discover.
| Quote: |
"Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are enjoined to constantly
refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any explanations we make
to
ease the journey of the soul of any individual must be based on the Wor
d
and the Word alone." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian
to
the National Spiritual Assembly of Canada, June 4, 1957) (Compilations
,
Lights of Guidance, p. 313)
that our best guidance to Divine Truth is from the Word. Not sure what
is
meant by the emphasis "and the Word alone" since we all need to use our
knowledge, be it spiritual or not, in the real world, and must be guid
ed |
by
| Quote: | the results of our actions.
|
Kent, I find that my own "knowledge" (whatever that may be) is a hinderan
ce.
Remembrance of the Words of God removes the veils.
"Know verily that Knowledge is of two kinds: Divine and Satanic. The one
welleth out from the fountain of divine inspiration; the other is but a
reflection of vain and obscure thoughts. The source of the former is God
Himself; the motive-force of the latter the whisperings of selfish desire
....
The one is guided by the principle: "Fear ye God; God will teach you;"[1]
the other is but a confirmation of the truth: "Knowledge is the most
grievous veil between man and his Creator." (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iq
an,
p. 69)
| Quote: |
....
It seems to me when the Guardian talks about relative truth he is talki
ng
about from one Revelation of God to the next.
|
I agree with that view Kent; as there is no truth of any kind that has no
t
been revealed through a Revealation.
Dominus vobiscum.
Richard. |
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Suzanne
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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|
Richard wrote:
| Quote: | Suzanne, your quotation from "Some Answered Questions" does not resolve th~ ď
e
issue of "volition" to me. The reason is that on this plane one may asser
t
self or ego. I suspect that in the next world, that is impossible. Thus
the power of which Abdu'l-Baha speaks is something entirely different from
what we experience her as "volition".
|
Hi Richard,
I've never heard of ego being needed for volition. How are you
defining the word "volition"? The dictionary defines it;
voˇliˇtion (v-lshn)
n.
1. The act or an instance of making a conscious choice or decision.
2. A conscious choice or decision.
3. The power or faculty of choosing; the will.
In the quote I cited, it says that the soul can progress in the next
world through its supplications, entreaties and prayers. It would
seem they have chosen to pray. According to my reading of the above
definiton, this is volition. I'm certain that everything in the next
world will be utterly different from what we experience in this world,
and we can't really even imagine it, and yet there are also
similarities. For one thing, as 'Abdul-Baha says in the passage
immediately preceding the quote I cited:
"Are not all the people in that world the creatures of God?
Therefore, in that world also they can make progress."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 232)
And His point was that they can initiate their progress through
prayers. Another similarity between this world and the next is that
they are both world's of God. As we know, God's essence can't be
known, but we do know that some of the attributes of God are Love,
Compassion, Mercy and Forgiveness -- all to a supreme degree. We can
count on the fact that that will be operant in the next world as
well.
| Quote: | I have also heard the story regarding Mirza Yahya. As I have not seen the
Tablet or an authenticated Writing regarding it, I cannot use it as
authority.
|
I wasn't using it as authority. However a covenant breaker can be
reinstated "if they sincerely repent."
"In their capacity as protectors of the Faith, the Hands will continue
to take action to expel Covenant-breakers and to reinstate those who
sincerely repent, subject in each instance to the approval of the
Universal House of Justice."
(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to the
Followers of
Baha'u'llah throughout the World, October 1963: Wellspring
of
Guidance, pp. 13-14)
If their soul is lost forever, why would we want them back in the fold
again?
| Quote: | On Ocean, I find no phrase "lost soul". However, I find this verse from
Baha'u'llah startling.
|
Which verse is that? I don't see what you've quoted.
Best wishes,
Suzanne |
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Suzanne
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
|
|
| Quote: | I have also heard the story regarding Mirza Yahya. As I have not seen the~Ôî
Tablet or an authenticated Writing regarding it, I cannot use it as
authority.
|
Hi Richard,
I was pretty sure that I had read this from an authorative source, but
I couldn't remember where. I thought it was in Epistle to the Son the
of the Wolf. However I found that it's in the Kitab-i-Aqdas,
according to the Synopsis and Codification:
19. Assurance of forgiveness to Mirza Yahya
should he repent
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 163)
And according to the introduction by the Universal House of Justice:
"...and finally,
His magnanimous assurance to a perfidious brother who had
afflicted Him with such anguish, that an "ever-forgiving, all-
bounteous"
God would forgive him his iniquities were he
only to repent --
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 15)
Strangely, I don't see the passage from Baha'u'llah. I'm sure it's
phrased in a way that I just don't see it, because I'm sure that
Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice know what they're
talking about.
And this assurance of God's pardon to Mirza Yahya was also also
alluded to in a couple of letters written on behalf of the Guardian,
and then generalised as a principle:
"Regarding Mr. ... question about the Covenant-breakers, Bahá'u'lláh
and the Master in many places and very emphatically have told us to
shun entirely all Covenant-breakers as they are afflicted with what we
might try and define as a contagious spiritual disease; they have also
told us, however, to pray for them. These souls are not lost forever.
In the Aqdas, Bahá'u'lláh says that God will forgive Mirza Yahya if he
repents. It follows, therefore, that God will forgive any soul if he
repents. Most of them don't want to repent, unfortunately. If the
leaders can be forgiven it goes without saying that their followers
can also be forgiven. "Also, it has nothing to do with unity in the
Cause; if a man cuts a cancer out of his body to preserve his health
and very life, no one would suggest that for the sake of unity it
should be reintroduced into the otherwise healthy organism. On the
contrary, what was once a part of him has so radically changed as to
have become a poison."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual
believer, November 28, 1944: Principles of Bahá'í Administration, pp.
22-23)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 184)
So it seems clear that covenant breakers can potentially repent and
return to God. It's just that most choose not to -- at least not in
this life. I would definitely say that slowly but surely they do die
a spiritual death. The thing is, though, God (or Baha'u'llah) has the
power to quicken the dead to new life. It's just a matter of them
becoming humble and turning to him. This may happen in the next world
-- "the world of vision"...where it seems like we all come to
understand the truth:
"...the mysteries of which man is heedless in this earthly world,
those he will discover in the heavenly world, and there will he be
informed of the secret of truth."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Baha'i World Faith*, Page: 367)
At that point a soul may very well repent and turn to God, even if
they opposed the Manifestation of God in this life.
Best wishes,
Suzanne |
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Suzanne
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
|
|
Kent wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Suzanne, hope this means your dissertation is finished.
|
I'm getting there.
| Quote: |
"At that point a soul may very well repent and turn to God, even if they
opposed the Manifestation of God in this life."
My conception of the soul is the essence of a person, and I don't believe it
can change, in the eyes of the living, after the person has passed on except
by the intercession of people who have not passed on.
|
I have heard that theory as well, but I believe it's based on one
quote from 'Abdu'l-Baha without really considering the other quote(s)
that may modify it. The quote that I cited definitely does this, in
my opinion. I can't see how you can see it any other way, since it
definitely does say that people progress through their own initiative
-- through their supplications and entreaties to God.
| Quote: |
It seems to me, just thinking rationally, that the essence of a person's
life, the person's physical existence is fixed at the time of the person's
death. After that point, the only way that person's essence can be changed
or recognized differently from what they were while alive, is by the actions
of those who still have a physical existence.
|
That sounds to me like eternal hell for those who don't have any loved
ones in this world. That doesn't seem like the sort of scenario a
loving, compassionate, ever-forgiving God would create. I'm reminded
of 'Abdu'l-Baha's explanation about why the literal story of Adam and
Eve is impossible. He said:
"If we take this story in its apparent meaning, according to the
interpretation of the masses, it is indeed extraordinary. The
intelligence cannot accept it, affirm it, or imagine it; for such
arrangements, such details, such speeches and reproaches are far from
being those of an intelligent man, how much less of the Divinity -
that Divinity Who has organized this infinite universe in the most
perfect form, and its innumerable inhabitants with absolute system,
strength and perfection."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 123)
Well, I find that to be the case for the idea that whatever we do in
this life is the end of it, and no change can take place in the next
world in our condition except by having people in this world pray for
us and give charitable donations in our name. It isn't something that
I could imagine from the God of Love that I know.
| Quote: | I think volition is a big part of a person's soul, nearly all of it.
|
I think it's an activity or attribute of the soul. It isn't the soul
itself.
What
| Quote: | we do is what we are, and what we do is what we want to do.
|
I think there's a lot more to it than doing alone. Baha'u'llah likens
the soul to a "heavenly gem." I tend to think of a diamond. As we
develop more and more spiritual qualities it's like we have more and
more facets which can reflect various colors of the light of God.
| Quote: |
After passing on, what we do is measured differently, and we have no way of
knowing how that is. In the Writings those actions are likened to leaven
and we are told the influence is seen in art. But in any case, whatever is
done from beyond cannot be identified individually unless the person's soul
or essence is well identified during the physical life. Therefore, if a
"soul" has changed and adds it volition toward the Will of God, only God
will know.
|
God, and the Concourse on High, I suppose. The next world is hidden
from us, so we don't know.
| Quote: | Of course, in every case, only God knows.
|
Right.
Best wishes.
Suzanne |
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Suzanne
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:19 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
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| Quote: |
Dear Kent,
That has always been my understanding of the Teachings on this topic
as well. We may not have a physical heaven or hell in the Baha'i
Faith, but like the other religions in the Irano-Semitic tradition,
each act is unrepeatable and what we do here on earth has eternal
ramifications.
|
Dear Susan,
I can't see how it can really be that simple. Even if someone has
done all good in their lives, at the end they can change for the
worse; and even if someone has done much bad, Baha'u'llah says that
their condition can change at the end of the lives for the better:
| Quote: | How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire!
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 266) |
So why not after the end?
I like this passage from Gleanings. The last sentence seems to imply
growth and change in condition (from unripe to ripe, at least) after
death:
"Consider, moreover, how the fruit, ere it is formed, lieth
potentially within the tree. Were the tree to be cut into pieces, no
sign nor any part of the fruit, however small, could be detected.
When it appeareth, however, it manifesteth itself, as thou hast
observed, in its wondrous beauty and glorious perfection. Certain
fruits, indeed, attain their fullest development only after being
severed from the tree.
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 155)
I believe that the Irano/Semitic religions teachings about eternal
damnation may have affected what passages some Baha'is latch onto in
their interpretations of the Writings on this subject, and those
interpretations have become "common knowledge" among Baha'is.
Best wishes,
Suzanne |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
|
|
Hi Suzanne, hope this means your dissertation is finished.
"At that point a soul may very well repent and turn to God, even if they
opposed the Manifestation of God in this life."
My conception of the soul is the essence of a person, and I don't believe it
can change, in the eyes of the living, after the person has passed on except
by the intercession of people who have not passed on.
It seems to me, just thinking rationally, that the essence of a person's
life, the person's physical existence is fixed at the time of the person's
death. After that point, the only way that person's essence can be changed
or recognized differently from what they were while alive, is by the actions
of those who still have a physical existence.
I think volition is a big part of a person's soul, nearly all of it. What
we do is what we are, and what we do is what we want to do.
After passing on, what we do is measured differently, and we have no way of
knowing how that is. In the Writings those actions are likened to leaven
and we are told the influence is seen in art. But in any case, whatever is
done from beyond cannot be identified individually unless the person's soul
or essence is well identified during the physical life. Therefore, if a
"soul" has changed and adds it volition toward the Will of God, only God
will know.
Of course, in every case, only God knows.
--Kent
"Suzanne" <sb.gerstner@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Hvidnd79Hab_g4bVnZ2dnUVZ_qygnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | I have also heard the story regarding Mirza Yahya. As I have not seen
the~Ôî
Tablet or an authenticated Writing regarding it, I cannot use it as
authority.
|
Hi Richard,
I was pretty sure that I had read this from an authorative source, but
I couldn't remember where. I thought it was in Epistle to the Son the
of the Wolf. However I found that it's in the Kitab-i-Aqdas,
according to the Synopsis and Codification:
19. Assurance of forgiveness to Mirza Yahya
should he repent
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 163)
And according to the introduction by the Universal House of Justice:
"...and finally,
His magnanimous assurance to a perfidious brother who had
afflicted Him with such anguish, that an "ever-forgiving, all-
bounteous"
God would forgive him his iniquities were he
only to repent --
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 15)
Strangely, I don't see the passage from Baha'u'llah. I'm sure it's
phrased in a way that I just don't see it, because I'm sure that
Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice know what they're
talking about.
And this assurance of God's pardon to Mirza Yahya was also also
alluded to in a couple of letters written on behalf of the Guardian,
and then generalised as a principle:
"Regarding Mr. ... question about the Covenant-breakers, Bahá'u'lláh
and the Master in many places and very emphatically have told us to
shun entirely all Covenant-breakers as they are afflicted with what we
might try and define as a contagious spiritual disease; they have also
told us, however, to pray for them. These souls are not lost forever.
In the Aqdas, Bahá'u'lláh says that God will forgive Mirza Yahya if he
repents. It follows, therefore, that God will forgive any soul if he
repents. Most of them don't want to repent, unfortunately. If the
leaders can be forgiven it goes without saying that their followers
can also be forgiven. "Also, it has nothing to do with unity in the
Cause; if a man cuts a cancer out of his body to preserve his health
and very life, no one would suggest that for the sake of unity it
should be reintroduced into the otherwise healthy organism. On the
contrary, what was once a part of him has so radically changed as to
have become a poison."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual
believer, November 28, 1944: Principles of Bahá'í Administration, pp.
22-23)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 184)
So it seems clear that covenant breakers can potentially repent and
return to God. It's just that most choose not to -- at least not in
this life. I would definitely say that slowly but surely they do die
a spiritual death. The thing is, though, God (or Baha'u'llah) has the
power to quicken the dead to new life. It's just a matter of them
becoming humble and turning to him. This may happen in the next world
-- "the world of vision"...where it seems like we all come to
understand the truth:
"...the mysteries of which man is heedless in this earthly world,
those he will discover in the heavenly world, and there will he be
informed of the secret of truth."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Baha'i World Faith*, Page: 367)
At that point a soul may very well repent and turn to God, even if
they opposed the Manifestation of God in this life.
Best wishes,
Suzanne |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Susan Maneck
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: The Soul |
|
|
| Quote: | My conception of the soul is the essence of a person, and I don't believe it
can change, in the eyes of the living, after the person has passed on except
by the intercession of people who have not passed on.
|
Dear Kent,
That has always been my understanding of the Teachings on this topic
as well. We may not have a physical heaven or hell in the Baha'i
Faith, but like the other religions in the Irano-Semitic tradition,
each act is unrepeatable and what we do here on earth has eternal
ramifications.
warmest, Susan |
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