| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Kikers
Guest
|
 Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Mary veneration (worship) |
 |
|
Caution: When the Vatican uses a word such as "cult," it is often uses the
ancient or original meaning (like vulgar which means from the vulgate).
Thus the word cult in the term Marian cult does not imply non-approved or
non-traditional worship. Just like the Militia Immaculata is not a bunch of
minutemen or part-time soldiers. So a "Marian cult" loosely translated into
modern English would probably be "Mary fan club" or "Mary boosters."
--
-Aaron Kiker
Spring, Texas
"Doug" <happybrew67@cs.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20030822110412.06745.00002137@mb-m06.news.cs.com...
| Quote: | However, some of my Catholic friends speak of "Marian cults" within the
church.
What are they talking about ? LE
I would suspect they're talking about people or groups who follow
unapproved
apparitions of the Virgin Mary, or who give the appearance of an excessive
devotion to Mary. An example of an unapproved apparition would be
Medegorje.
There is very good reason to believe that it's not authentic, but it has
people
following it, reading "daily messages." I think it's a hoax. Reportedly
the
Bishop of that diocese thought the same thing. There are others who don't
follow Mary's instructions to "do whatever he (Jesus) tells you." One of
my
teacher's aides in my RE class didn't want to follow the text we were
using,
which covered the commandments and the beatitudes, and wanted the kids to
be in
Rosaryland every class. She was frustrated that I was teaching doctrine
and
not prayer. She ended up leaving the class. We did teach prayer, but
that
wasn't the focus. The focus was on faith formation, and how to live the
beatitudes and the commandments. If you get several people like that
together,
they can really interrupt things in a parish if someone else doesn't keep
them
on track. They need to be reminded that Mary says "Do whatever he tells
you."
They're not bad people. They just need direction.
Doug |
|
|
| |
|
 Back to top |
Doug
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Mary veneration (worship) |
|
|
Kikers wrote:
| Quote: | Caution: When the Vatican uses a word such as "cult," it is often uses the
ancient or original meaning (like vulgar which means from the vulgate).
Thus the word cult in the term Marian cult does not imply non-approved or
non-traditional worship. Just like the Militia Immaculata is not a bunch of
minutemen or part-time soldiers. So a "Marian cult" loosely translated into
modern English would probably be "Mary fan club" or "Mary boosters."
--
-Aaron Kiker
Spring, Texas
|
Thank you for the clarification. I have only heard that term once or twice,
and it was a while ago. I had forgotten it. It really would depend upon the
context. Perhaps Lamarr should ask his Catholic friends what they mean by it.
Doug |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Andrew
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:23 am Post subject: Re: Mary veneration (worship) |
|
|
"Doug" wrote:
| Quote: | Kikers wrote:
Caution: When the Vatican uses a word such as "cult," it is often uses the
ancient or original meaning (like vulgar which means from the vulgate).
Thus the word cult in the term Marian cult does not imply non-approved or
non-traditional worship. Just like the Militia Immaculata is not a bunch of
minutemen or part-time soldiers. So a "Marian cult" loosely translated into
modern English would probably be "Mary fan club" or "Mary boosters."
--
-Aaron Kiker
Spring, Texas
Thank you for the clarification. I have only heard that term once or twice,
and it was a while ago. I had forgotten it. It really would depend upon the
context. Perhaps Lamarr should ask his Catholic friends what they mean by it.
Doug
|
Well Doug, after you have studied the matter some more, what is your stand on
the issue which you have brought up - the worship of Mary; do you still believe
that it is sinful idolatry? or.. do you now believe that it would be an acceptable
practice of worship?
"Doug" wrote:
| Quote: | Catholics do not worship Mary, and to do so would be idolatry.
|
Thank you.
Andrew |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Doug
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Mary veneration (worship) |
|
|
| Quote: | Well Doug, after you have studied the matter some more, what is your stand on
the issue which you have brought up - the worship of Mary; do you still
believe
that it is sinful idolatry? or.. do you now believe that it would be an
acceptable
practice of worship?
|
If by worship you mean giving Mary the honor due to God, then yes, it is sinful
idolatry. But this is not what Catholics give to Mary.
I would submit that the Catholic
Encyclopedia is using the term "worship in an
archaic sense. It is no longer used in that
sense. In this respect, it is quite frankly
wrong.
Let me give you an example from the Douay-Rheims
Ru:2:10: 10 She fell on her face, and worshipping
upon the ground, said to him: Whence cometh this
to me, that I should find grace before thy eyes,
and that thou shouldst vouchsafe to take notice of
me, a woman of another country? (DRV) Bible.
1Sm:24:8: 8 (24-9) And David also rose up after
him: and going out of the cave, cried after Saul,
saying: My lord the king. And Saul looked behind
him: and David bowing himself down to the ground,
worshipped, (DRV)
2Sm:9:6:6 And when Miphiboseth the son of
Jonathan the son of Saul was come to David, he
fell on his face and worshipped. And David said:
Miphiboseth? And he answered: Behold thy servant.
(DRV)
2Sm:14:4: 4 And when the woman of Thecua was come
in to the king, she fell before him upon the
ground, and worshipped, and said: Save me, O king.
(DRV)
2Sm:24:21: 21 And going out he worshipped the
king, bowing with his face to the earth, and said:
Wherefore is my lord the king come to his servant?
And David said to him: To buy the thrashingfloor
of thee, and build an altar to the Lord, that the
plague, which rageth among the people, may cease.
(DRV)
1Kgs:1:16: 16 Bethsabee bowed herself, and
worshipped the king. And the king said to her:
What is thy will? (DRV)
1Kgs:1:53: 53 Then king Solomon sent, and brought
him out from the altar: and going in, he
worshipped king Solomon: and Solomon said to him:
Go to thy house. (DRV)
Do you get the picture? By differentiating
between the different types of worship, the
Catholic Encyclopedia tries to explain the
difference between the honor due to Mary and the
honor due to God. But today, we don't even use
the word worship in that way, except as pertains to God. The
term has a more precise meaning now than it did
then.
We recently celebrated the Feast of the
Assumption. Our priest, in his sermon, stated
that the Feast of the Assumption really isn't
about Mary at all. It's about God, and what God
can do in a person's life. He was absolutely
correct. This is what true Marian devotion is
about. It is not worship of the person, but
worship of God. It is a celebration of what God
can do in a person's life. Imagine that! A poor
peasant girl 2000 years ago could be blessed by
God and elevated to the state of being the mother
of our Savior! The least likely person that the
world would pick, God picked. That is the power
of God working in a person's life, and it is the
celebration of the power of God to elevate the
lowly that is, or should be, the focus of Marian
devotion, or devotion to any of the other saints.
Without Jesus Christ, there would be no saints.
It is entirely the power of God at work. When we
praise Mary, we are not praising anything that she
merited, but praising what God did for her. A
fourteen-year-old pregnant, unwed teenager in a
little farming community in an obscure Roman
province was filled with the grace of God, and
carried the Messiah within her womb! Joseph would
have put her away quietly had an angel not stopped
him from doing so. Yet God lifts up the lowly and
exalts the humble.
The CCC states:
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains
a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what
is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres 398, 2534
a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for
example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state,
money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44
Catholics do not, and must not put Mary in the
place of God. We don't worship Mary. The
veneration we do give her is a celebration of what
God has done for her. It is, in that way,
actually a roundabout worship of God, because it innately
praises God for His mercy and power. It is a
recognition of how much God loves us, no matter
who we are.
Doug |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Andrew
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Mary veneration (worship) |
|
|
"Doug" wrote:
| Quote: | Well Doug, after you have studied the matter some more, what is your stand on
the issue which you have brought up - the worship of Mary; do you still believe
that it is sinful idolatry? or.. do you now believe that it would be an acceptable
practice of worship? (Andrew)
If by worship you mean giving Mary the honor due to God, then yes, it is sinful
idolatry. But this is not what Catholics give to Mary.
I would submit that the Catholic Encyclopedia is using the term "worship in an
archaic sense. It is no longer used in that sense. In this respect, it is quite frankly
wrong.
|
According to Kikers, the Catholic Encyclopedia in using the term "worship" is not
at all contrary to modern Catholic understanding. They call it "HYPERDULIA" . .
"And hyperdulia is Veneration or WORSHIP given to the Virgin Mary as the most
exalted of mere creatures; higher veneration than dulia. In other words, SHE HAS
A SPECIAL KIND OF WORSHIP ascribed only to her and thus separate from the
dulia."
He goes on to say that the worship of God is called "latria," and they would never
give that to Mary. They would only give her hyperdulia worship. It's a different
nuance of meaning of the word. So, the conclusion is that Catholic practice is to
worship Mary "hyperdulia," but never to worship her "latria."
Then there's the "worship" of saints and relics. Again this is not the "latria" worship
reserved for only God, nor is it the "hyperdulia" worship reserved only for the Virgin
Mary, but this would be called "dulia" worship. It's different nuances of meaning of
the word "worship."
| Quote: | Let me give you an example from the Douay-Rheims
Ru:2:10: 10 She fell on her face, and worshipping
upon the ground, said to him: Whence cometh this
to me, that I should find grace before thy eyes,
and that thou shouldst vouchsafe to take notice of
me, a woman of another country? (DRV) Bible.
1Sm:24:8: 8 (24-9) And David also rose up after
him: and going out of the cave, cried after Saul,
saying: My lord the king. And Saul looked behind
him: and David bowing himself down to the ground,
worshipped, (DRV)
2Sm:9:6:6 And when Miphiboseth the son of
Jonathan the son of Saul was come to David, he
fell on his face and worshipped. And David said:
Miphiboseth? And he answered: Behold thy servant.
(DRV)
2Sm:14:4: 4 And when the woman of Thecua was come
in to the king, she fell before him upon the
ground, and worshipped, and said: Save me, O king.
(DRV)
2Sm:24:21: 21 And going out he worshipped the
king, bowing with his face to the earth, and said:
Wherefore is my lord the king come to his servant?
And David said to him: To buy the thrashingfloor
of thee, and build an altar to the Lord, that the
plague, which rageth among the people, may cease.
(DRV)
1Kgs:1:16: 16 Bethsabee bowed herself, and
worshipped the king. And the king said to her:
What is thy will? (DRV)
1Kgs:1:53: 53 Then king Solomon sent, and brought
him out from the altar: and going in, he
worshipped king Solomon: and Solomon said to him:
Go to thy house. (DRV)
Do you get the picture? By differentiating
between the different types of worship, the
Catholic Encyclopedia tries to explain the
difference between the honor due to Mary and the
honor due to God. But today, we don't even use
the word worship in that way, except as pertains to God. The
term has a more precise meaning now than it did
then.
|
I do see that this is how you understand this, but my understanding is that Mr.Kikers
and other Catholics will unashamedly use the word worship in regards to religious
practice involving the BVM, the saints and relics.
| Quote: | We recently celebrated the Feast of the
Assumption. Our priest, in his sermon, stated
that the Feast of the Assumption really isn't
about Mary at all. It's about God, and what God
can do in a person's life. He was absolutely
correct. This is what true Marian devotion is
about. It is not worship of the person, but
worship of God. It is a celebration of what God
can do in a person's life. Imagine that! A poor
peasant girl 2000 years ago could be blessed by
God and elevated to the state of being the mother
of our Savior! The least likely person that the
world would pick, God picked. That is the power
of God working in a person's life, and it is the
celebration of the power of God to elevate the
lowly that is, or should be, the focus of Marian
devotion, or devotion to any of the other saints.
Without Jesus Christ, there would be no saints.
It is entirely the power of God at work. When we
praise Mary, we are not praising anything that she
merited, but praising what God did for her. A
fourteen-year-old pregnant, unwed teenager in a
little farming community in an obscure Roman
province was filled with the grace of God, and
carried the Messiah within her womb! Joseph would
have put her away quietly had an angel not stopped
him from doing so. Yet God lifts up the lowly and
exalts the humble.
The CCC states:
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains
a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what
is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres 398, 2534
|
Doug, what does the CCC state re: Maryolatry? Is this acceptable?
"Worshiping an idol is idolatry. Worshipping Mary is Maryolatry."
~A. Kikers
| Quote: | a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for
example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state,
money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44
Catholics do not, and must not put Mary in the
place of God. We don't worship Mary. The
veneration we do give her is a celebration of what
God has done for her. It is, in that way,
actually a roundabout worship of God, because it innately
praises God for His mercy and power. It is a
recognition of how much God loves us, no matter
who we are.
Doug
|
Thank you.
Andrew |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Doug
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Mary veneration (worship) |
|
|
| Quote: | According to Kikers, the Catholic Encyclopedia in using the term "worship" is
not
at all contrary to modern Catholic understanding. They call it "HYPERDULIA"
. .
"And hyperdulia is Veneration or WORSHIP given to the Virgin Mary as the most
exalted of mere creatures; higher veneration than dulia. In other words, SHE
HAS
A SPECIAL KIND OF WORSHIP ascribed only to her and thus separate from the
dulia."
He goes on to say that the worship of God is called "latria," and they would
never
give that to Mary. They would only give her hyperdulia worship. It's a
different
nuance of meaning of the word. So, the conclusion is that Catholic practice
is to
worship Mary "hyperdulia," but never to worship her "latria."
Then there's the "worship" of saints and relics. Again this is not the
"latria" worship
reserved for only God, nor is it the "hyperdulia" worship reserved only for
the Virgin
Mary, but this would be called "dulia" worship. It's different nuances of
meaning of
the word "worship."
|
Again, the Catholic Encyclopedia is using the term in its archaic sense, much
as the Douay-Rheims Bible did. The CCC calls latria, dulia, and hyper-dulia
forms of veneration. Veneration can be a component of worship, but need not
be. It is the bestowing of honor.
Doug |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Doug
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Mary veneration (worship) |
|
|
In article <1c972d02.0308201729.18850eb9@posting.google.com>,
aletheia@mail2christian.com (Aletheia) writes:
| Quote: | Could you answer three questions for me?
1.If someone has given All of themselves to Mary, is there anything left for
God?
|
I fail to see how anyone could give ALL of themselves to Mary in a literal
sense. In any case, the idea is that Mary turns everything over to her Son.
So in giving one's self to Mary, the idea is that you are asking in a special
way for her intercession. When she in turn offers the devotee to Christ, the
thinking is that He will not turn down His mother.
| Quote: |
2. If they have devoted themselves to her, is it a sin to disobey her?
|
No. But it's not like Mary asks people to do anything except pray and do what
Jesus tells us to to. There are some unapproved supposed apparitions where
Mary supposedly gives a daily message. They are bogus, and none of them are
recognized by the Church. I wish they would put their feet down make a
declaration that they are false, rather than simply trying to discourage them.
Normally, the disobedience not a sin, but the result of sin, for Mary tells us
to "do whatever He (Jesus) tells you. Mary doesn't command us like God does.
She serves as a reminder. Mary doesn't say "thou shalt not kill." Mary says
"killing wounds me and my son" Mary points to God, God gives the imperatives.
| Quote: |
3. What would be the consequences of refusing her?
|
I don't think there are any on a personal level, however when Mary appeared at
Fatima, she predicted the spread of communism, the outbreak of World War II,
and the decline in general morality we have seen in recent decades. She said
that we need to pray more, particularly for Russia, and that if we don't,
communism would spread, wars would result, and the Church would be persecuted.
All of these things happened. It was not a consequence of refusing her, but
rather the fulfillment of a prophesy. If we were all following Christ, these
things wouldn't have happened. In fact, the spread of communism can be
directly linked to an agnostic capitalism in that it was a reaction against the
utilitarian philosophy behind it which denied God, made pleasure the
cornerstone of ethics, and made the treatment of one's fellow human beings as
means to an end the norm for behavior. Naturally, people didn't like being
used as means to an end, but they liked the part about pleasure being the
cornerstone of ethics, which necessitated the denial of God. So when communism
promised pleasure for all, and not just the rich or powerful, it spread. Of
course it failed to deliver what it promised, was exceedingly bloodthirsty, and
in its BEST moments far exceeded the WORST excesses of capitalism. The fact of
the matter is that the message of Fatima made perfect sense. When we turn from
God, bad things happen. Fatima told what those bad things would be, and they
happened. So no, there's no consequence really to disobeying Mary, as Mary
doesn't make commandments. Mary gives prophesies, and tells us what we need to
do to avoid or to gain what is told about in the prophesy. That thing we need
to do is what we have always needed to do: Obey God. In that respect, there's
no difference from what prophets told the Israelites in the Old Testament:
When you don't obey God, bad things happen.
Doug |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Teresita
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Mary veneration (worship) |
|
|
In article <bi6iu6$5ngcf$1@ID-97599.news.uni-berlin.de>, Andrew says...
| Quote: |
Well Doug, after you have studied the matter some more, what is your stand on
the issue which you have brought up - the worship of Mary; do you still believe
that it is sinful idolatry? or.. do you now believe that it would be an
acceptable practice of worship?
|
No Catholic worships Mary as the word is currently understood. English combines
the more precise Latin words dulia, hyperdulia, and latria into one word
"worship." The way you phrased your question, you are asking if the hyperdulia
offered Mary is an acceptable practice of latria...and the answer is of course
no.
--
Encyclopedia Teresita
http://web.newsguy.com/teresita |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Andrew
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Mary veneration (worship) |
|
|
"Teresita" wrote:
| Quote: |
No Catholic worships Mary as the word is currently understood. English combines
the more precise Latin words dulia, hyperdulia, and latria into one word
"worship." The way you phrased your question, you are asking if the hyperdulia
offered Mary is an acceptable practice of latria...and the answer is of course no.
|
Would you say the time spent in hyperdulia veneration offered
to Mary is MORE . . or is it LESS than latria worship to God? |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Teresita
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Mary veneration (worship) |
|
|
In article <biann5$7ek0q$1@ID-97599.news.uni-berlin.de>, Andrew says...
| Quote: |
Would you say the time spent in hyperdulia veneration offered
to Mary is MORE . . or is it LESS than latria worship to God?
|
You're being a bead counter. You're thinking of the 10:1 Hail Mary to Our
Father ratio in the rosary. But speaking about my personal devotion, I hardly
spend any time in "hyperdulia veneration" relative to my latria worship.
--
Encyclopedia Teresita
http://web.newsguy.com/teresita |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Doug
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:13 am Post subject: Re: Mary veneration (worship) |
|
|
| Quote: | Would you say the time spent in hyperdulia veneration offered
to Mary is MORE . . or is it LESS than latria worship to God?
|
That's like asking if time spent doing the dishes is more or less than tht
offered to God, or time spent talking with a friend, or typing at your keyboard
in reply to newsgroup messages.
Doug |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
|
