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monkfish
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 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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Dan Listermann wrote:
| Quote: |
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
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Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:fZSdnU9yELCptjfVnZ2dnUVZ_jmdnZ2d@ptd.net...
In general - the normal useage is for matter to take up space. Energy
is
not matter in some cases - so it may not count as taking up space -
even
though
it exists everywhere. YES - energy can be matter - wood contains
potential energy and takes up space.
Is matter everywhere?
How does this relate to the potential existence of deities outside the
imagination of their believers?
I'm not trying to play your game.
I'm trying to show you
that you are using the wrong paradigm.
You don't seem to be doing a very good job of it.
Matter existing everywhere, somewhere or nowhere does not bear on the
existence of deities as far as I can tell.
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Is money everywhere?
--
monkfish
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monkfish
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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MF-2HD wrote:
| Quote: | monkfish wrote:
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
Thom Madura wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:ILSdnUTvopydEDXVnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:NdSdnfv4AYSEpjrVnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:vIydnbdwVq50VDjVnZ2dnUVZ_r7inZ2d@ptd.net...
How do you tell good from bad?
Good things are constructive, bad things are destructive.
Do you need a deity to tell you good from bad?
Constructive for what?
Perhaps you will have to imagine what your deity means by
"constructive."
Why are you talking as if you know the answer
when you are clueless?
But it is precisely being clueless that allows us to know the
answer to the problem.
There is no testable and verifiable proof that gods exist - so
everyone is clueless about gods.
Exactly.
Just as a cup is useful because of its emptiness,
A cup is never empty.
God is necessary mainly because of its unlimitedness.
God is very limited.
Why are you trying so hard to limit God?
There is no need, god limits it self.
Are you trying to say God exists?
Only in imagination.
Is money imaginary?
Do you exchange for goods and services?
Do you exchange for goods and services?
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Do you have to have money
to exchange goods and services?
--
monkfish
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monkfish
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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Dan Listermann wrote:
| Quote: |
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:VJGdnU2qMqm_RjfVnZ2dnUVZ_tfinZ2d@ptd.net...
Is it blind faith to observe that you are afflicted with silly
superstitions?
Is democracy a superstition?
Not as far as I am concerned. At least not on any level approaching the
level that deities are. Please feel free to disagree but do try to
explain yourself instead of just asking another inane question
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You have to think for yourself
to comprehend what it means for God to exist.
God is not a superman in the sky.
To believe in God is rather like
to believe in real democracy.
It's not whether it already exists here and now,
but whether you are willing to make it come true.
--
monkfish
* alt.atheism is removed from the groups header. |
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MF-2HD
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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monkfish wrote:
| Quote: | MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
Thom Madura wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:6uSdnforRrFBHDTVnZ2dnUVZ_rDinZ2d@ptd.net...
Thom Madura wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:ILSdnUTvopydEDXVnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:NdSdnfv4AYSEpjrVnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:vIydnbdwVq50VDjVnZ2dnUVZ_r7inZ2d@ptd.net...
How do you tell good from bad?
Good things are constructive, bad things are destructive.
Do you need a deity to tell you good from bad?
Constructive for what?
Perhaps you will have to imagine what your deity means by
"constructive."
Why are you talking as if you know the answer
when you are clueless?
But it is precisely being clueless that allows us to know the answer
to the problem.
There is no testable and verifiable proof that gods exist - so
everyone
is
clueless about gods.
Exactly.
Just as a cup is useful because of its emptiness,
God is necessary mainly because of its unlimitedness.
Sorry - gods are creations of humans and are limited by the humans that
created and defined them.
Of course - real gods don't exist anyway.
Why are you trying so hard to limit God?
I am not - gods don't exist.
You are confused.
Even if God is created by humans,
He must exist at least as much as money and democracy.
Does bazooka joe exist?
Wrong paradigm.
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No it is not.
Does bazooka joe exist? |
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MF-2HD
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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monkfish wrote:
| Quote: | Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:uI6dnclgspXetzfVnZ2dnUVZ_gydnZ2d@ptd.net...
Why are you trying so hard to limit God?
I am not - gods don't exist.
You are confused.
Even if God is created by humans,
He must exist at least as much as money and democracy.
Until you offer an explanation of the above, it will be considered utter
nonsense.
If humans create something,
that something must exist.
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Does bazooka joe exist? |
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MF-2HD
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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monkfish wrote:
| Quote: | MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
rustynail wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
rustynail wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
rustynail wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
Can anything be everwhere and still is same
everywhere? Is space everywhere and still is
same everywhere?
Pure water is the same everywhere it is.
But it is not everywhere.
Is temperature everywhere?
Are deities everywhere?
God is everywhere.
Sure, if that is what you want!
How do we detect something that is everywhere?
Who cares?
You should if you are interested in God.
How do you prove the existence of God
when God is everywhere?
If this god were everywhere it would be easy to find.
Is space easy to find?
yes
What do you know about space?
plenty
Does space have boundaries?
Depends on the type of space.
How many types of space do you have?
Well there is the space in my house. There is the space
between my house and the next house. There is the space in my
truck. There is space in my garage. There is the space I leave
between my truck and the vehicle in front of me while driving.
They all appear to be physical spaces.
I guess there are temporal spaces as well.
They say there are mathematical spaces.
Is there a spiritual space?
No.
Can space be empty?
sure.
Does that mean energy cannot be everywhere?
sure.
Isn't it a factual question
whether space can be empty or not?
It's just a question.
Theoretical?
It's just a question.
What kind?
Rhetorical?
Nope, just a question.
Are you full of it?
Are you full of it? |
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MF-2HD
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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monkfish wrote:
| Quote: | MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:3OCdnTo_lLyyETXVnZ2dnUVZ_oTinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:-5SdnUoqG86pFDrVnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@ptd.net...
Is there a spiritual space?
No.
Can space be empty?
How empty is "empty?"
The context is ontology.
Is emptiness prior to space?
Do you know? Because I don't know and I won't make up a myth to
make me believe that I do know, would you?
You seem to be obsessed with your misconception of God.
Relax. There's no such thing.
But God is everywhere.
If you are interested in figuring out what God is,
you would be interested in knowing
what is ontologically prior to what.
Ontology is simply the determination of what entities exist. Your
questions are not really ontology.
Can something be everywhere and still be alive?
A single live thing can not be everywhere.
What kind of statement is that?
Factual, logical, normative,
or something else?
Lets see if you can figure it out.
It would depend on what I wanna do with it.
What ever you want, just figure it out.
More normative than factual.
More definitional than logical.
Rather like commitment than discovery.
No your wrong. |
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MF-2HD
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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monkfish wrote:
| Quote: | MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
Thom Madura wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:ILSdnUTvopydEDXVnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:NdSdnfv4AYSEpjrVnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:vIydnbdwVq50VDjVnZ2dnUVZ_r7inZ2d@ptd.net...
How do you tell good from bad?
Good things are constructive, bad things are destructive.
Do you need a deity to tell you good from bad?
Constructive for what?
Perhaps you will have to imagine what your deity means by
"constructive."
Why are you talking as if you know the answer
when you are clueless?
But it is precisely being clueless that allows us to know the
answer to the problem.
There is no testable and verifiable proof that gods exist - so
everyone is clueless about gods.
Exactly.
Just as a cup is useful because of its emptiness,
A cup is never empty.
God is necessary mainly because of its unlimitedness.
God is very limited.
Why are you trying so hard to limit God?
There is no need, god limits it self.
Are you trying to say God exists?
Only in imagination.
Is money imaginary?
Do you exchange for goods and services?
Do you exchange for goods and services?
Do you have to have money
to exchange goods and services?
No. |
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Dan Listermann
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:ddadnbSAT-aedzfVnZ2dnUVZ_qrinZ2d@ptd.net...
| Quote: | Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:2M2dnWAt5qyYdTfVnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:fZSdnU9yELCptjfVnZ2dnUVZ_jmdnZ2d@ptd.net...
In general - the normal useage is for matter to take up space. Energy
is
not matter in some cases - so it may not count as taking up space -
even
though
it exists everywhere. YES - energy can be matter - wood contains
potential energy and takes up space.
Is matter everywhere?
How does this relate to the potential existence of deities outside the
imagination of their believers?
I'm not trying to play your game.
I'm trying to show you
that you are using the wrong paradigm.
You don't seem to be doing a very good job of it.
Matter existing everywhere, somewhere or nowhere does not bear on the
existence of deities as far as I can tell.
Is money everywhere?
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Still no help. Just another inane question. |
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Dan Listermann
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:qJidnX-5BM1acTfVnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@ptd.net...
| Quote: | Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:VJGdnU2qMqm_RjfVnZ2dnUVZ_tfinZ2d@ptd.net...
Is it blind faith to observe that you are afflicted with silly
superstitions?
Is democracy a superstition?
Not as far as I am concerned. At least not on any level approaching the
level that deities are. Please feel free to disagree but do try to
explain yourself instead of just asking another inane question
You have to think for yourself
to comprehend what it means for God to exist.
God is not a superman in the sky.
To believe in God is rather like
to believe in real democracy.
It's not whether it already exists here and now,
but whether you are willing to make it come true.
|
If I were to wear ruby slippers and click my heals together three times, it
is unlike that I will find myself in Kansas unless I was already in Kansas.
I suppose that you can make deities come true if you count your imagination
as your only abettor of truth. |
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Dan Listermann
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:2M2dnWMt5qwVdTfVnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@ptd.net...
| Quote: | Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:74adnRBvT4mIrTfVnZ2dnUVZ_uqdnZ2d@ptd.net...
Well I guess you can define "real" as things you have imagined if you
want
to. I won't.
Can God be real just as money is real?
No, I can hold money in my hand. I can't hold imaginary beings in my
hand. This is a big difference.
Have you ever seen a crucifix?
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Is a crucifix a deity? |
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Dan Listermann
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:2M2dnWIt5qxedTfVnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@ptd.net...
| Quote: |
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:s_udnZfSypyg1TrVnZ2dnUVZ_gOdnZ2d@ptd.net...
Don't believe everything
that comes to your mind.
Excellent advice. I await evidence that you have practiced it.
Do you meditate at all?
I sleep.
At least daydream once in a while.
Sure, but I don't day dream about imaginary beings.
How about the perfect justice in the world?
Does it require imaginary beings?
Is the perfect justice real?
Not unless you can define it in a sane manner.
Is money definable in a sane manner?
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Sane enough for reasonable people to take seriously. |
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Dan Listermann
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:2M2dnZ0s5qyadDfVnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@ptd.net...
| Quote: | Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:7amdnQsWms1HrDfVnZ2dnUVZ_oninZ2d@ptd.net...
Is constructiveness simpler than goodness?
Does it have more explanatory power?
How about symbolic richness?
Oooo! Symbolic richness! That is rich!
Many people would weep at hearing the word 'freedom'.
"Freedom" is a relative term. It is never absolute and to use it that
way
is to abuse it. You can have more or less freedom, but you cannot just
have, or not have, freedom.
Would you like to be absolutely free?
Free from what?
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If you carefully read my above post you should find that "freedom" is not
absolute but relative like "big." |
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Dan Listermann
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:ddadnbqAT-budDfVnZ2dnUVZ_qrinZ2d@ptd.net...
| Quote: | Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:0OidnVVd8srg0TfVnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@ptd.net...
Are you trying to say God exists?
Only in imagination.
Is money imaginary?
Can you put deities in your pocket and buy ice cream with them later?
Can you say a few words
and be forgiven for all sins?
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Religobabble |
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Dan Listermann
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:ddadnbWAT-ZYdDfVnZ2dnUVZ_qrinZ2d@ptd.net...
| Quote: | Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:uI6dnclgspXetzfVnZ2dnUVZ_gydnZ2d@ptd.net...
Why are you trying so hard to limit God?
I am not - gods don't exist.
You are confused.
Even if God is created by humans,
He must exist at least as much as money and democracy.
Until you offer an explanation of the above, it will be considered utter
nonsense.
If humans create something,
that something must exist.
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Humans can create imaginary beings that only exist in their minds. Is that
what you mean by "exist?" |
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