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Kent Johnson
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 Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: Words and Names ARE creation... |
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I have read Greek philosophy, and it strikes me that Plato does not talk
about forms or spheres, and he would be shocked to know how his name was
added to "Platonic" relationships. I don't believe Plato, Socrates or even
Euclid intended their ideas as events on a metaphysical plane of existence.
They are rational ideas and meant to be viewed in the rational world of
humanity's words and names.
We are non-physical creatures. We know this because the world we have
created for ourselves is a world of words and names. A chair cannot exist in
nature, though we create chairs out of our natural surroundings through our
conceptualizations and refer to chairs with our languages. We make a rock
formation into a chair, a large object into a tree, a small object into a
gnat. Each object is defined and reified into a matrix of logical order
created and reinforced with the power of words and names.
The alternative to this view, that we actually see reality as it is, is
discredited by almost everyone who has examined the issues.
When we notice and call attention to the fact that we are perpetuating, in a
number of ways, this creation, we find ourselves living in a kingdom of
words and names. I find that when I read Genesis I see the truth of the Word
of God rather than wondering at the true meaning of the Word of God.
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.1:2 And the earth
was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And
the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.1:3 And God said, Let
there be light: and there was light.1:4 And God saw the light, that it was
good: and God divided the light from the darkness.1:5 And God called the
light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning
were the first day.1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst
of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.1:7 And God made
the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from
the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.1:8 And God called
the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second
day.1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together
unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.1:10 And God
called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called
he Seas: and God saw that it was good. (King James Bible, Genesis)
The more I read the more I understand that God created our world by
revealing to humanity the Kingdom of Names, revealing language and therefore
the ways we are capable of experiencing our worlds.
"And when He purposed to manifest His beauty in the kingdom of names and to
reveal His glory in the realm of attributes, He brought forth His Prophets
from the invisible plane to the visible, that His name 'the Manifest' might
be distinguished from 'the Hidden' and His name 'the Last' might be
discerned from 'the First', and that there may be fulfilled the words: 'He
is the First and the Last; the Seen and the Hidden; and He knoweth all
things!'" (Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 35)
Our world is created by words and words have no physical form or substance
other than modulating synaptic eloquence and various forms of ink on various
forms of paper. Therefore it is a small jump to understand in a very real
way that humanity has a non-physical existence. I like to explain it this
way: The instant we put a word or a name to our experience we have left the
physical world. So long as our experience is "ouch" or "wow" or "aargh" then
we are physical. But when we say "oh, it's a ..." then we are non-physical.
If our world is a kingdom of names then our existence is not a physical
existence and it is a small jump to understand why our existence
outlasts our bodies. |
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Sen
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Words and Names ARE creation... |
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Nice explanation. Thanks
Sen |
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Sen
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Words and Names ARE creation... |
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Nice explanation. Thanks
Sen |
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Douglas McAdam
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: Words and Names ARE creation... |
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On Jul 7, 2008, at 9:18 AM, Sen wrote:
| Quote: | Nice explanation. Thanks
Sen
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Hi Sen-
I'm lost here. What does this refer to because you did not quote
anyone's email or comment.
regards,
doug |
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Kent Johnson
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:05 am Post subject: Re: Words and Names ARE creation... |
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At least it is good to know someone is reading.
Thanks. --Kent
"Sen" <sen.sonja@casema.nl> wrote in message
news:oNednXgWMbPfru_VnZ2dnUVZ_sDinZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | Nice explanation. Thanks
Sen
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Poststructuralist
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:27 am Post subject: Re: Words and Names ARE creation... |
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Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | The more I read the more I understand that God created our world by
revealing to humanity the Kingdom of Names, revealing language and
therefore the ways we are capable of experiencing our worlds.
|
Of course, that assumes that these "worlds" can be distinguished from
the words used to describe them in a particular divine Revelation. 
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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Kent Johnson
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: Re: Words and Names ARE creation... |
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Hi Mark,
"... that assumes that these "worlds" can be distinguished from the words
used to describe them..."
I said we are only capable of experiencing His worlds through words. I
don't understand why you suggest those words can be confused with the
experience.
--Kent
"Poststructuralist" <drfosternotfromgloucester@nospamgmail.com> wrote in
message news:o6ydnblfQeMdiunVnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@giganews.com...
Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | The more I read the more I understand that God created our world by
revealing to humanity the Kingdom of Names, revealing language and
therefore the ways we are capable of experiencing our worlds.
|
Of course, that assumes that these "worlds" can be distinguished from
the words used to describe them in a particular divine Revelation.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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Poststructuralist
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Words and Names ARE creation... |
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On Jul 10, 7:57 pm, "Kent Johnson" <k...@compx2.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I said we are only capable of experiencing His worlds through words. I
don't understand why you suggest those words can be confused with the
experience.
|
Hi, Kent:
IMO, our experiences are produced through the social constructions of
reality (or words) which we accept, no matter whether the source is
divine Revelation or something else.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:19 am Post subject: Re: Words and Names ARE creation... |
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And how is that inconsistent with what I said?
"Poststructuralist" <drfosternotfromgloucester@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:sMmdnQTLaq_XieTVnZ2dnUVZ_t7inZ2d@giganews.com...
On Jul 10, 7:57 pm, "Kent Johnson" <k...@compx2.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I said we are only capable of experiencing His worlds through words. I
don't understand why you suggest those words can be confused with the
experience.
|
Hi, Kent:
IMO, our experiences are produced through the social constructions of
reality (or words) which we accept, no matter whether the source is
divine Revelation or something else.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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Poststructuralist
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: Re: Words and Names ARE creation... |
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Kent Johnson wrote:
| Quote: | How is that in conflict with anything I said?
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Hi, Kent:
No, I think we understand the subject in much the same way.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Words and Names ARE creation... |
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On Jul 12, 6:50 pm, Poststructuralist
<drfosternotfromglouces...@nospamgmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Kent Johnson wrote:
> How is that in conflict with anything I said?
Hi, Kent:
No, I think we understand the subject in much the same way.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist
|
I would agree that our knowledge of the Primal Will is conditioned by
the interaction we have with the revealed word. Thus, our ability to
understand our existence is only available to us through divine
revelation, as revealed in the sacred texts. |
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Rod Missaghian
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:42 am Post subject: Re: Words and Names ARE creation... |
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On Jul 14, 2:39 pm, "Kent Johnson" <k...@compx2.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi again, Rod.
... our knowledge of the Primal Will is conditioned by
the interaction we have with the revealed word.
The phrase "Primal Will" appears nine times in the Baha'i Writings,
including quotes from the Qur'an. Four of those are from the Writings
of
the Bab. I think the most appropriate in this usage is this one: "It i
s
this Primal Will which appeareth resplendent in every Prophet and speaket
h
forth in every revealed Book. It knoweth no beginning, inasmuch as the Fi
rst
deriveth its firstness from It; and knoweth no end, for the Last oweth it
s
lastness unto It." (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p.
126).
So it is clear that the only way we know of the Primal Will is by the
explanations we have received from the Founders of the great religions, t
he
Manifestations of God on earth. With Their explanations we understand
that
His Will is that we should better ourselves and make earth as it is in
heaven. Without the Word of God we would not know that.
Is that what you were saying?
--Kent
rod.missagh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5dednRuEoMElXObVnZ2dnUVZ_sHinZ2d@giganews.com...
On Jul 12, 6:50 pm, Poststructuralist
drfosternotfromglouces...@nospamgmail.com> wrote:
Kent Johnson wrote:
How is that in conflict with anything I said?
Hi, Kent:
No, I think we understand the subject in much the same way.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. *http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist
I would agree that our knowledge of the Primal Will is conditioned by
the interaction we have with the revealed word. Thus, our ability to
understand our existence is only available to us through divine
revelation, as revealed in the sacred texts.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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Yes Kent that was what I was saying. |
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Kent Johnson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:39 am Post subject: Re: Words and Names ARE creation... |
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Hi again, Rod.
| Quote: | ... our knowledge of the Primal Will is conditioned by
the interaction we have with the revealed word.
|
The phrase "Primal Will" appears nine times in the Baha'i Writings,
including quotes from the Qur'an. Four of those are from the Writings of
the Bab. I think the most appropriate in this usage is this one: "It is
this Primal Will which appeareth resplendent in every Prophet and speaketh
forth in every revealed Book. It knoweth no beginning, inasmuch as the First
deriveth its firstness from It; and knoweth no end, for the Last oweth its
lastness unto It." (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p.
126).
So it is clear that the only way we know of the Primal Will is by the
explanations we have received from the Founders of the great religions, the
Manifestations of God on earth. With Their explanations we understand that
His Will is that we should better ourselves and make earth as it is in
heaven. Without the Word of God we would not know that.
Is that what you were saying?
--Kent
<rod.missaghian@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5dednRuEoMElXObVnZ2dnUVZ_sHinZ2d@giganews.com...
On Jul 12, 6:50 pm, Poststructuralist
<drfosternotfromglouces...@nospamgmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Kent Johnson wrote:
How is that in conflict with anything I said?
Hi, Kent:
No, I think we understand the subject in much the same way.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist
|
I would agree that our knowledge of the Primal Will is conditioned by
the interaction we have with the revealed word. Thus, our ability to
understand our existence is only available to us through divine
revelation, as revealed in the sacred texts. |
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Poststructuralist
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Words and Names ARE creation... |
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rod.missaghian@gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | Thus, our ability to understand our existence
is only available to us through divine
revelation, as revealed in the sacred texts.
|
I agree that the Sacred Texts are our direct avenue of knowledge on this
subject. However, personally, I would not say that we can "only"
"understand our existence" through them.
--
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * http://www.markfoster.net
"... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
basic fault lines today are not between people with different
beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist |
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